It's been a long time since I've been in a classroom, but I thought maybe we could start by sitting together for a few minutes and then reciting some of the sutra together. And I thought maybe what we could do is basically do the first page It takes a bit at the bottom there. It runs in the general forest. And that's where we start. The protection of wisdom. The left side is very long. Once the Bhagavan was twelve hundred years Shravasti and nothing about the garden in the Jeta forest.

[01:04]

Together with a full assembly of twelve hundred and fifty Bhikshus and a great many fearless Bodhisattvas, one day before noon, the Bhagavan put on his patched robe and picked up his bowl and entered the capital of Shravasti for offerings. After many perfluency, from his gay round in the afternoon. He put his robe and bowl away, watched his feet, and sat down on the appointed seat. After crossing his legs and adjusting his body, he turned his attention to the thought before him. At this time, a number of the issues came up to worry about on the street. After touching their heads to his feet, they walked around him to the right three times and sat down to one side. On this occasion, the Venerable Saruji was also present to the assembly. Rising from his seat, he uncovered one shoulder and touched his right knee to the ground.

[02:10]

Pressing his palms together and bowing to the Buddha, he said, It is rare, Bhagavan, most rare it is to die. However, Bhagavan, the fully enlightened one, blessed the spiritless Bodhisattvas with the best of blessings, And it is rare, rather fun, how the Tathagata, the Arhat, the Fully Enlightened One, entrusts Spiritless Bodhisattvas with the greatest of dusts. Even so, Bhagavan, your good son or daughter should set forth on the Bodhisattva path, how she should make it well, how she should make it practice, and how she should make it control her thoughts. The Buddha told of the Venerable's stability, her well-being, So it is, Abhuti, it is as you say, that the Tathāgata blesses fearless bodhisattvas with the best of blessings and entrusts fearless bodhisattvas with the greatest of trusts.

[03:12]

You should therefore truly ask this, Abhuti, and think about this well. I shall tell you how someone who sets forth on the bodhisattva path should dwell, how he should practice, and how he should control their thoughts. The general Subuti answered, may it be so, Bhagavan, and he gave his full attention. The Buddha said to him, Subuti, those who are now thus set forth on the footings of the path should give rise to the thought, however many beings there are in whatever realms of being that I exist, whether they are born from an egg, or born from a womb, or born from the water, or born from the air, material or not material, conscious or not conscious, or neither conscious nor not conscious, in whatever conceivable realm of being one might conceive of beings, in the realm of complete necronomy, such a liberating all.

[04:14]

If God has liberated countless beings, not a single being is liberated, then why not simply The bodhisattva who forms the idea of a being cannot be called a bodhisattva. And why not? Specifically, it cannot be called a bodhisattva to form the idea of itself, or the idea of a being, or to form the idea of a life, or the idea of a soul. The Lord always lives in me. Welcome everybody. I apologize for not having enough copies of everything. I think there may be... It always happens. People take them to put in files. Well, if there's any more that are needed, let me know.

[05:30]

We'll just make some. Let's see, we have one major housekeeping item. Probably some others as well. Unbeknownst to Lori and myself, we have a conflict It's next Thursday, which has to do with back to school. We both have kids at Berkeley High. And I just want to throw out there, is there any way we can crunch our meeting into another time slot? I know there's really not that much available here. in terms of doing it means meeting at an awkward time, which may be really impossible for most of us. When do people come for dinner? 5? Well, earlier in the evening, either on Wednesday or on Thursday.

[06:32]

5 to 6.30 on Thursday. Or later in the evening. 6.30 to... Or 7 to 8. Oh, was it on Wednesday? What time did they come in? They come in here at like 7.20. Is that correct? Yeah, so it would be like us. No, 8.10. Then they're from 7.20 until about 8.10, 8.15. So it would be something like starting at 6.30 or something on Thursday. Or 6.00. No, yeah, 6.30. 6.30 to 8.00 on Wednesday or 5.00. Maybe we should see a show of hands if people cannot, absolutely can't do that. Which one? There's two days. Either one. Let's try Wednesday. Cannot?

[07:32]

Cannot. Cannot do this. Cannot do Wednesday. Cannot do Thursday. What if you pushed it just like, let me next week? What if you just extended it? There is a Slipping Cracks free class starts the week after. Yeah, unfortunately. We're going to have to pick one. They're about the same. Yes, Saturday. Well, I don't know. Something like that. That's... I don't know. Maybe you better skip it for Thursday because at least... People know about Thursday. That's a kind of... We did it on Thursday and we would start meeting earlier at 5 to 6.30.

[08:34]

Yeah, 5 to 6.30. There's no overlap in the classroom. There's no overlap there. But it is... It could be during class. But it would also be during a... It would be on the same day. As far as I can tell, it's about the same number of people. So... Thursday might be a little better for you, but it's really... So, unless... If somebody wants to talk about this further, why don't we plan to meet early next Thursday? And then, are you recording this? Yeah. For those who can't come, maybe we can make sure that they're able to listen to the tape if they wish. Yeah. So next Thursday at what time? 5? 5.

[09:34]

Here. Here. Okay. Could it be earlier? It could be earlier. I mean, because I agree with them. Oh, you do? Are there any other housekeeping items? All right. Well, maybe I should just say that some of you know that my mother's at home right now, and so I've been traveling a lot. So that's the reason why Peter's taking more of a lead role. Not because I'm a woman and he's a man or anything like that. Thank you. And why should the woman take the lead role? So Laurie and I did have a conversation about how to approach this material. And I realized that as I was thinking about this that I just want to acknowledge that I think each of us is in a really different place about how to kind of engage with the Sutra.

[10:57]

We had the general idea that we might just try and go through it, you know, eight chapters a meeting, and get something like 32 chapters, which are... it's divided into 32. What I provided is a copy of the translation as it stood when Red Pine came here and gave a series of lectures. He provided us with all these... This translation now that's the translation that appears in the book that was published that eventually published This one here, which probably some of you have seen know or have It's there's it's interesting there the words have been changed a little bit here and there Sometimes I like them better in here sometimes I like them better in here actually, but the changes are very minor And this is really a wonderful book. If you have a chance to look at it, take it out of the library. It's his translation, and it gives the translation in the beginning, and then it goes on in a very traditional way.

[12:13]

It goes through the sutra, paragraph by paragraph, followed by commentary by various people, some traditional commentators, like we named his sixth ancestor. some modern commentators, Thich Nhat Hanh appear in here, and there's a couple of modern commentators and poets and so on that are commentary on the sutra. The Eeyak. I also copied the translator's preface to the book, which provides a little bit of background into the translation and to make sure I have it all, and so I hope everybody else does. It gives a little background into the translation into Red Point's approach to the Sutra, and what I, you know, what he felt was the most useful orientation to kind of

[13:22]

you know, get your arms around it or something, get your mind around it. So... I'm thinking that... instead of trying to say a whole lot in the beginning, I thought we might... I might make a few comments about some of the opening stanzas in the sutra, where we can kind of hear from people about how they relate to this, what they can resonate with, what they have difficulty with, whether it's just the meanings of the words or some concept. So I'm just going to kind of start out and talk. One of the things that most of the Mahayana sutras start off with a seamless set the interlocutor saying, you know, this I've heard once the Buddha was gone here or there amongst a large assembly of monks, lay women, lay people, whoever it happens to be in this particular setting.

[14:42]

And I think that on this particular occasion, this is the assembly and this is the body of the Buddha and so I want us to kind of approach this as though here we are again in the assembly before the Buddha and raise whatever questions we have discussing this so the In the beginning, in this sutra, it describes how the Buddha goes off, does some very ordinary things at the beginning of the day, comes back, and sits down, and is paying attention to what just happens to be before him.

[15:44]

And Red Pine is commentary to this now. The rest of the sutra explains what happens in this first paragraph. What the Buddha is doing in everyday life, and what the monks see before them as an example. So therefore, Sputi asks him, and this is one of the places where there's a little change where it says here, how should they dwell, how should they practice, and how should they control their thoughts. And the Red Pine says it a little bit differently, which I think is useful. They're both red pine, right?

[16:51]

Yeah, they're both red pine. Yeah, that's right. He later revised it. He revised it. And he says, how should they stand? How should they walk? And how should they control their thoughts? I just, you know, dwell in practice. I think that terminology does crop up a lot in the sutras, but I think it's It's more to the point to talk about how we should conduct ourselves in everyday life. How do we get from A to B? How do we conduct ourselves bodily, so to speak? And so the first question that comes up is that, And then, of course, the Buddha says, you know, how you should do this, how you should do this, this practice, is to give birth to thought.

[18:03]

Now it says here, give rise to thought. I think this is sort of interesting. In his published book, it says, give birth. And I like, I like the phrase, give birth. I actually want to flip over to chapter four here, which is, Moreover, it simply means when the Bodhisattvas give a gift, they should not be attached to anything. Not attached to a thing, but when they give a gift, they should not be attached to anything at all. And it goes on in that vein. And the reason why I like this concept of giving birth to a thought is that it's, to me, it's more evocative of you give birth to the thought and then the thought is on its way. You know, you're going to let it go. You don't have any choice about it. Anyway, so he admonishes the students to give birth to the thought that I will liberate all beings and that in fact no beings are liberated because I

[19:21]

because I'm not going to form a concept of that being. And so he's saying, this is how you practice. And when Red Pine was getting into this part of the sutra, I kept thinking, wow, they're going to tell us how to do this, you know. And then, since then I've been trying to figure out What does that mean? How is it that you practice in that way? So, do you think about this? Is it some sort of feeling you have? Is it something you kind of hold on to?

[20:30]

Is that a thought you hold on to during the day? Or is it a thought that you try to think or give birth to? How do you do this? And what sort of effect does this have on you? Can you actually do something else? Can you conduct your life well? You give birth to this thought. I mean, is this like trying to do two things at once? These are the immediate questions that came up for me in trying to grapple with this teaching. So at first, for me, this was about a struggle about having this sort of impossible thought And, you know, is it getting in the way, or is it, you know, what's the point here? And I think finally, you know, maybe it's a way in which, it's a way in which you don't grab onto things.

[21:45]

It's both, you know, it's actually an instruction that is a way to not form a concept of a being, a life, a soul, et cetera, et cetera. Because when you have that thought, it opens up a little bit of space to not make that move towards grappling with something. It's the Heart Sutra. It's nothing like the Heart Sutra. It's part of the Heart Sutra. So tell me how it's nothing like the Heart Sutra. Well, there are no beings in the Heart Sutra. Where does it say that?

[22:45]

There is no core, there is no thing, nothing that stands alone. There's nothing that stands alone, so... And in the art sutra, of course, in the Daimyo Sutra, the word emptiness does not appear. But it's there, right? It's there. Why would that be? Why would they? They wouldn't mention the word emptiness. Well, I think, to me, the Diamond Sutra is taking a very practical approach and asking, how do you do the practice? It's not so much... The Heart Sutra seems to imply, seems to be speaking to people who are doing traditional practices. meditation on the body, meditation on the dhatus and the yajnas and the skandhas, meditation on 12-fold Jain causation, and trying to unhook from thinking that those concepts are real.

[24:11]

In the in the longer versions of the Heart Sutra, the ones that are a hundred or a thousand times longer, there'll be a section that explains some of the basic Buddhist practices, like meditation on the body, the different parts of the body, meditation on the breath, and the explication of those is almost exactly the same as in the Hinayana texts, or the really old traditional texts, but at the end there's this little piece that says, and the Bodhisattva does not grasp any of this. So it's kind of a different approach to doing the Mahayana approach is in some ways kind of just a further implication of doing traditional Buddhist practices where, you know, you may at the outset kind of examine the self in terms of the different components, see how

[25:13]

The things that you thought were entities are not really, you know, they're really made up of something else. They really arise, things, you know, several things arise together which you take to be something. And the more we pay attention to how our consciousness unfolds, we see these different elements. I guess the early Believers set a lot of time to think about this because they got it down to the real details of the momentary bits of consciousness. And so the Heart Sutra addresses that very directly. Well, for a second here, as you read this out, I thought that the problem I expressed on Saturday was solved.

[26:19]

So we got a problem. Well, it is at some kind of level. I think it may be. But I was raising a question on Saturday about How can you say that you're going to save all beings and then right away say there is no such thing as being? But that's kind of a conceptual thing, and this, as you say, seems to be really a practical thing. It doesn't say there is no being, actually. It says, however many beings there are, I'm going to save them all, and... But it doesn't say there is or there isn't. So, there isn't a being, or there is a being, It says, here's the attitude that will be liberating. The attitude that will be liberating is that not giving, not forming the idea of a self.

[27:24]

That will help you do this. And then right away it says, if you give a gift, you shouldn't be into it. It says, Bodhisattva isn't attached to anything when Bodhisattva gives a gift. So just reading it out loud, that was very good. It made me see the connection of those two things. Like, I was looking at Ron, and I thought, how am I going to look at him without thinking he's a being or a self or any kind of life at all? And it was just a little guideline to kind of practice looking at Ron some other way. What would it look like if I didn't form the idea of a self? Then, if I gave a gift to Ron, I wouldn't be attached to him. Well, it's interesting that you bring this up, leading the narrative along, because it says, you know, as you say, you know, I vow to save all beings, and yet,

[28:40]

And then right away you say, well, I'm not going to... I guess what I'm thinking is that it comes to us in a narrative. There's one thing and then the other. But I think maybe the teaching is pointing to these two things somehow giving birth to this at once. That's an interesting point. I have a question. So it goes on about how I will liberate all beings. For in the realm of complete nirvana, I shall liberate them all. So that being in deepest meditation or in this world in action? I think in this world. as the Buddha.

[29:44]

That's how I take that to mean. I understand that. That's something I've struggled with a little bit, too. I don't know if Red Pine really gets at that piece of it. This being the world of the world, the realm. This is the Buddha speaking. So in the realm of the Buddha, I will liberate them all. And though I thus liberate countless beings, not a single one, and though I thus liberate countless beings, being, it's already done in some ways, in the realm of complete nirvana of beings. I mean, it's interesting just that, and thus I, And though I thus liberate countless beings, not a single being. It's just an interesting, such an interesting... You mean the time?

[30:50]

It's not like... When I get around to liberating them all, it's like now that I've liberated them. Yeah, as I liberate them, but in the same way as I liberate them, they're not liberated. There are no beings liberated. Yeah. When we dispute about meanings and try to make it into logical sense, I think we're off. Yeah, and I'm thinking about, you know, I used to practice with M.P.E.T. Sensei, and Sun Tzu Ming, you know, you know M.P.E.T. right? Yes. Well he, I just tell you, I just tell you, one time, the first time I ever did a retreat with them, and I actually had an interview with somebody, he asked me, I'm sorry I have to tell you this anecdote, that there was a young woman in the group who had taught us all a way to practice, and she said, she had this very soft voice, and she said,

[32:08]

So I looked at the interview with Sun Tzu Ming, and he says, he has this Korean accent. Well, what is your name? I just said, this is what you're going to do. I knew right then, who's that? Who am I? Donna! Don't know! Don't know! And, you know, and one time, he asked me, I don't know, I was wondering around, he said, he asked me something and I was feeling very self-effacing and I said, I don't know, and he said, no, no, I just don't know. So I just throw that out without further explanation. But don't know is a really important piece of this.

[33:17]

Yeah. Because it's another pointer towards not getting hold of something. Well, Sun Tzu-Hing used to say, and I'm not sure if that's Sun Tzu-Hing, but he's so quotable somehow with this accent. But he used to say, God, nature, primary point, I've been thinking about somehow this question of subhutis, you know, how can we control our thoughts? And it's so, I mean, the dynamic between them, to me, the part that, one of the things that really has the flavor of practice is, is kind of tight little questions on Buddha's spacious answer, and how often that dynamic is there, you know, how can we control ourselves? And the answer is this, and I think Red Pine describes it as, he says the Buddha preempts, but how do we control our thoughts?

[34:27]

We control them by preempting them with this whole new way of looking at things that creates this big space. And so it's more than just... I mean, for me, it's more than... it's not so much a con... it's like I almost feel the space somehow. The feeling of space is more than just conceptual, somehow. And yet this spaciousness creates focus, paradoxically. And that spaciousness creates the lack of distraction, the lack of frustration, and that which allows you Settle down to being somewhere that you can't quite put into words, but it can be identified by the very quality of spaciousness that it has, that you're not like, oh I can't understand this, or whatever it is. Well yeah, I think the sutra was written in the form of this

[35:38]

colloquy for a reason. That, you know, it's a play. There's two characters in this play. There's the pagoda and there's Shibuya. It's sort of like the funny man and the straight man. And you know, that the punchline is coming, but you don't quite know which direction it's going to come from. And even once it's delivered, you still know it's funny, but you don't know why it's funny. So that's what I get from that. Well, Red Pine takes a very definite point of view about what's going on here. And his sense of it is that This is certainly the education of Subuddhi, and that Subuddhi, at various points, about the question he asks, the form of the question he asks, how can I control my thoughts, is that he's asking a question from the point of view of a, for lack of a better word, so-called Hinayana practice, or a practice about involving restraint and discipline in a narrow path.

[37:07]

and the Buddha is offering him something else. This comes up at various points in the sutra, or at least from the Great Mind's point of view. Well, we could read a couple more chapters unless there's something else. Yes. I have a thought back to the bus. Oh yeah, I know. Which was, which was, in the, in the complete nirvana then, There is the seeing that there are no beings, and in the seeing that there are no beings, the beings are supposed to liberate themselves from their sins. That's why they are called drunks. Well, I have a problem with the word thus, not particularly with this usage here.

[38:14]

But as it comes up later, I keep thinking of it as therefore. And which is not, I don't think it's meant that way. No, I think it's... Thus. Yeah, in this way. Isn't he thus come? Yeah, he's thus come. Or thus gone. Thus gone. Let's see. Though I thus liberate. Well, let's read... Let's see here. Can I make one more point about what we read already? Yes, yes. There's a really interesting thing I thought in it. He kind of quotes the Maha Prajna Paramita Sutra, which I guess is the 20,000th one. Which page are you on? Well, I'm on page 81 of this book, but it's not there. Oh, it's not the same? It's on the commentary of the section about the being's perception of the self.

[39:19]

He brings up why do they use these four different terms for the self? the self of being a life or a soul. And I just found this kind of interesting that self and life, the four included here focus on dimensions of space and time. Atma, self, refers to inner reality and sattva, being, to an outer reality. So that's more like in space. Inner, self from the point of view of what you feel inside of you as yourself. And being as what you see other people as. being and soul being life as being your present life and soul being the idea that you continue to the future. So these are all like four different ways we think of our, we think that the self exists in these different ways. So I kind of think that's interesting. Okay, so the next couple of chapters are actually bringing up a whole other series of issues.

[40:34]

And so four, five, six, let me see. Let's read four and five, starting at the bottom of this page. Moreover, Supreme Guruji, when Bodhisattvas give a gift, they should not be attached to a thing. When they give a gift, they should not be attached to anything at all. They should not be attached to a sight when they give a gift, nor should they be attached to a sound, a smell, a taste, a touch, or a aroma when they give a gift. Thus, Supreme Guruji, fearless Bodhisattvas to the idea of an object. And why, Samudri, the body of merit of those Buddha-stotlas who hear the earth without being attached is not easy to measure. What do you think, Samudri, is the space to the east easy to measure?

[41:42]

To me, it is quite, but no one knows it more than I. The Buddha said, likewise, it is the space to the south, to the west, above, below, or in any of the ten directions easy to measure. This is no different body. No, it isn't one at all. The Buddha said, so it is subhuti. The body of merit for those bodhisattvas who give it a gift without being attached is not easy to measure. Thus subhuti, for those who set forth on the bodhisattva path, should you give it a gift without being attached to the idea of Arhat. What do you think, Subuddhi? Can the Tathāgata only be seen by means of the possession of attributes? Subuddhi replied, No indeed, Bhagavan. The Tathāgata cannot be seen by means of the possession of attributes. And why not? Bhagavan, what the Tathāgata says is that the possession of attributes is no possession of attributes.

[42:48]

Thereupon, the Buddha told his venerable Subuddhi, possession of attributes is an illusion as a fluidity, and no possession of attributes is not an illusion. By the means of the attributes, there are no attributes. The totality of a hand, the need to be seen. The concept of giving a gift without being attached to anything is fairly straightforward. Although, again, how do you do that? I think you're thrown back onto Chapter 3. where in a sense you have to give rise to some sort of thought.

[43:51]

You have to do something about your state of mind or something before this gift-giving can occur. What do you do? Now there are lots of ways to think about this on a practical level. Everyday life, you're constantly giving people things. You know, there's constant sort of exchange back and forth, verbal, whatever. How are you functioning in that realm? How is it that... Are there opportunities? When you think about just the ordinary exchanges of everyday life, are there opportunities that are arising where you can see, oh, maybe I could do this a little bit differently.

[44:54]

Maybe I could offer a piece of advice to my child in a way that is just an offering, and it's over. If somebody gives you a gift, let's say someone comes up and says, I saw something nice to you about me, I really like the shirt you have on, or that was really nice what you said to me the other day, or that card you sent to me was really great. How do you give back that gift? Well, we'll get back to that in a minute. But why? Why should we give a gift? And then we hear that the body of merit of those bodhisattvas we give a gift without being attached is not easy to measure.

[46:02]

Now why should we care about that? What's the point here? And what is a body of merit? As I mentioned, some of you were probably in a talk I gave on Saturday, and I touched on this briefly. This question of, we don't really think about this very much. It's not part of our intellectual heritage so much, this sense of accumulation of goodwill or merit. I think it's there, but it's not talked about in this way explicitly. And so I think it's good to kind of talk a little bit about it and what it might mean. And in some level, it just means if you give a gift without attachment, some kind of liberation takes place.

[47:16]

it's in the context of some sort of liberation. There's some sort of, maybe there's some kind of feeling of, you know, maybe, maybe not, but there's a kind of, there's a kind of release of energy, perhaps, or something that, you know, that feels good, maybe. And so, So what do you do with that? So if you do things for others, and you give of yourself sincerely, And you do that a lot.

[48:18]

If you practice sincerely, you exhaust it every day. Something happens. You start to feel... there's something sort of supporting you. Or there's some energy or something that goes along with that. And so, what do you do with that? And we hear from various sources that if you accumulate enough merit, maybe you'll be reborn in a better life next time. If you keep at it, maybe you'll become Buddha. But I think it's a little bit tricky because I think there There are just a lot of ways you can get hooked into, if I do this, I'm going to get something back.

[49:25]

And there are innumerable ways I can do that. So, in some way, what the Sutra is going to, I think, lead into, is the importance of giving without attachment. I think the problem is, as has been explained once, is that when you give a gift without attachment, it creates even more merit. And the question is, what do you do with that? And so maybe you have to give that away. You know, at the end of our service, at the end of the merit of the recitation of the Sutra, the merit that we offer to all beings, so you give that away. that effect creates even more merit. So, it's the, and that is maybe, well, we're going to get further into this, but, you know, it may be that the, in fact, maybe I'm just going to find that spot.

[50:35]

Ah, yes. It's in chapter 8. Something we're going to do today. Actually, I'll just start reading. Let's start reading and skip chapter 6, 5, and 6. 6, and we'll go to chapter 7. We'll just read chapter 7. Once again, the Buddha asked the venerable Suddhuri, what do you think, Suddhuri? Do you think the photographers are real? in one minute. And does the Tathagata teach any such Dharma?" With an ample civility, the third party replied, "'Neither one, as I understand the meaning of what the Buddha says. If the Tathagata did not realize any such Dharma, then it would excel perfectly in my mind. Nor does the Tathagata teach such a Dharma. And why not? This dharma realized and taught by the Tathagata is inexplicable and inexpressible.

[51:49]

It is neither a dharma nor a do-dharma. And how is that possible? Because sages arise in the uncreated. Now this, before we go on, I just want to say this is another instance in which Red Pine points out that Spudi is maybe kind of still stuck in the old ways of thinking in that And this phrase at the end of the chapter, because sages arise from the Creator, is really maybe not quite correct. That sages don't really arise from anything. They don't arise from something. But let's keep going on from Chapter 8. The Buddha said, ìCertainly, what do you think? If some spiritual son or daughter filled the billion worlds of this universe with the seven jewels and gave them all as a gift to the Bhagavatas, the Arhats and totally enlightened ones, would the body and merit produced by the result of this spiritual son or daughter be great?î To which the Buddha answered, ìIt would be great in our mind.î

[53:02]

a body of merit produced as a result of that good son and daughter would be great sugata. And how so? Bhagavan, whatever is said by the Tathagata to be a body of merit is said by the Tathagata to be no body, thus does the body of that being a body of merit become the body of merit. The Buddha said, subhutti, if instead of filling the living world as a gift to the Tathagatas, the Arhats, the fully enlightened ones. If this, O Senator Potter, understood but one four-line gatha of this dharma teaching, and made it known and explained it in detail to others, the body of merit produced would have been totally and utterly integrated and degraded. And how so? Subduedly from this is born the unexcelled, perfect enlightenment of the Tathagatas, the Arhats, the fully enlightened ones. So what the Buddha is saying is that this is what the Buddhas arise from.

[54:06]

It's from this body of merit that results from the giving gift without attachment and giving that gift and giving that gift and yet also the contrast is drawn between giving a gift of filling the billion worlds of this universe with the seven jewels Think about how long that might take. Could you really think about the effort it would take to do that?

[55:11]

I mean, it is unthinkable. And then to contrast that with giving a gift of this sutra as without attachment. giving a gift of this teaching of non-attachment without attachment. And so this sort of takes the teaching kind of full circle in one sense in that it's liberation of all beings is giving birth to that thought of liberating all beings and at the same time recognizing beings as non-existent and from that place giving a gift without attachment in a sense creates a body

[56:28]

creates the body of the Buddha, an awakened body. And so these first eight chapters are pretty unique. But I think we should kind of go back, step back a little bit, and talk about this thing, this problem with merit. Because I think this is the sort of thing that's easy to get caught on. I don't know if what I've been saying is confusing or if it clarifies anything. But it's hard to talk about without being concrete about it. But then, is that really the point? Give me an example. things you experience every day.

[57:30]

Well, if you think about merit without measure, right from the beginning, you're in a different realm than when you think about merit as usual. It's just some kind of measurement. It's a measurement of how good I am. Or how much merit there is, or what that merit could look like, or what it would affect, how much effect it might have, or what it would look like, or what it would feel like, depending on how you measure it. So how can you think about merit without measuring? It's good to do that. Then there's also the the first case of the Blue Cliff Record, where the Lady Dharma appears before the Emperor Wu, and the Emperor Wu asks about the merit created by his unflagging support and dedication to building temples and supporting monks, and he gets replied, no merit.

[58:53]

If you do that, it doesn't... It doesn't really affect the outcome. It's not like, okay, this is my, this is mine, that's yours, that's yours. It's not like that. Yeah, okay. So probably it's not going to be helpful. I don't know. Creating marriage, creating marriage. Yeah, yeah. So the giving it away is in a way just kind of recognizing what you're just talking about, which is that it's something that's created, and it's created in a space where beings exist, and it has an effect on things, but it's not something that we control or put a boundary around or anything like that.

[60:06]

I wonder if it is the thought that counts, but in the opposite way of the way we usually think about it. We can just rake the leaves out of our neighbor's yard without thinking about it, without any thought. And perhaps that would help much more than raking the leaves out of our neighbor's yard and thinking, oh, my neighbor's going to be very happy with me, and they can like me a lot more. And so if it's just action, if it's pure manifestation of what It should be. It has a different place. It's much different for us and much different for the world. I'm trying to understand some of the difficulties of reading this. It seems partly that the teaching is that it's psychologically important because we practice and need to learn

[61:14]

more and more and more without looking to get anything. And yet, it seems to be to build up merit is teaching. In summary, let's create more and more of it and then the Buddha will appear. Right. Yeah. Yeah. The world changes that way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a little bit like starting to kind of grow a little bit into the idea of, you know, if people are, acting in some meritorious way, and we continue to share this together, and there's this exchange going on.

[62:16]

And somehow it creates a kind of different space that we live in together. Well, it's like a potlatch. The guy who gives it all gets it. Yeah. But he gets it by giving. the most and doesn't give the most. And that the most doesn't come back, it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Yeah, yeah. It's a societal... Right. Because then, then we're talking about a gift given with attachment, so you're sort of controlled by that idea. It seems like, in terms of actually practicing on an everyday level, though, that you think, you know, We could feel bad, we could feel badly. I'm so attached to being there.

[63:20]

It's bad, I should leave it in the way. I think that, um, how I would practice Buddhism is just, it just makes you aware of that quality. You just see that quality in yourself. And proceed. If you feel that there's too much should, it makes you feel really bad. Well, you know, I keep coming back to, you know, giving birth to that thought. He does use the word should, and I don't really understand, you know, because I'm not a Sanskrit Chinese scholar. I don't really know what the meaning behind that is, or what the meaning behind that... Obviously, when you go from... You never know, when you're going from... Between languages, exactly what the implication of a certain meaning should be in English.

[64:32]

I've heard you, I haven't heard you. Sure. Yeah, I know, but... Like, well... Laurie, did you have something? Well, I was just thinking, as we were reading it, that, you know, even in our sort of mundane, ordinary life, there's a sense that this is not true giving if you have attachment. I mean, if you think about it, that comes up all the time in sort of an ordinary way, like on a sitcom or something. If you do something for some kind of gain, people recognize that that's not real giving, you know. That's a thought that can happen. It really is more a blessing to give than receive or something. And to do that, you are really giving. You're not giving secretly as a way to get, you know. So I mean, in some ways, I haven't thought about that. In some ways, it's just sort of bringing forth that real truth that sort of we all kind of, in the vernacular anyway. But we don't really have a practice of giving, it doesn't feel like in our culture.

[65:38]

And I wonder if there was more of a practice of giving. I mean, I guess we have the Christmas spirit. There's just dance around Christmas, there's giving. I mean, it comes up sometimes. Well, it's true that in the culture where these sutras came from, there were Maybe I'm idealizing something and I don't really know. It's understandable. But there were the monks. They were out and they would appear in front of the door and then you would have an opportunity to give. And the question was, well, what kind of opportunity was that? Just get the rice in the bowl and get this guy out of my face? I've heard it said that in the older school of Buddhism that it was really important the state of mind in which the monk was giving and that there was this sort of pure state of mind and then the gift was given and there was taint in the monk's mind and the nun's mind that somehow tainted the act.

[66:51]

And in Mahayana Tradition I've heard it said that that isn't so important. That's an interesting question, because in some sense, I feel like what you brought up first is really pointing to this concept of whether or not there's attachment involved. On the other hand, in the Mahayana tradition, there's this acceptance that the practice is going to take place now, and we're not going to wait until we're ready And so, you know, now, you know, even if I am, you know, out murdering somebody, I am now going to give birth in the slot. And, you know, it's going to start, somehow it's going to start now. And that it's okay to start now. And that somehow that's going to work.

[67:53]

Isn't there a greater redemptive potential in the later traditions and in the older school, that even if we're like tainted and hung up with our egocentric thinking, if we make the effort that there's something that is meritorious or at least beneficial to the world, and like you said, it's not like you're waiting to be purified. And of course, that might be an idealization because we want to think that we are like waiting to purify before they can do something that would benefit humanity. But that seems like a really different emphasis. Well, yeah. I think that's true. But it's also, I think, from our perspective that we see things in particular. you know, there's a lot of traditions where, you know, preparatory practices are a big thing, you know, a hundred thousand frustrations, and, you know, even, I think of this story about Dan Welch, he's a student at the University of St.

[69:03]

Petersburg, when he was young, I think it was actually before he went to St. Petersburg, he went to Japan to study Zen, and he went to the temple, and, well, if you show up at the temple, you know, they're not going to let you in, but if you, You know, if you're down in like this, on the stone steps, for two days, they will let you in. So there's something about that, you know, demonstrating your sincerity, both to yourself and other people. Right, the faith that I can engage with the practice no matter what is going on, no matter where I happen to be. in my own sort of body and mind at that time.

[70:14]

I'm going to come back to that next week. But I want to talk to you about that a little bit afterwards because I want to find out the source of that and look at it a little bit. There are a great many Mahayana teachings that go into detail about lots of things exhaustively. We tend to sort of be in the mind, let's just keep it simple. But there are some things which, you know, if we elucidate them a little bit, might be interesting to talk about. I don't think that those issues come up in the Diamond Sutra specifically, but there are probably ways in which they are important. So as we go through things, it might be nice to be able to understand that and talk about it when it comes up.

[71:40]

Yes? The notion of giving without any expectation of merit, to me, when that happens, the first thing you should put in expression is is in a state of, for lack of a better word, grace. And if the person doesn't happen to be in that state, then it's very easy to get caught up in a whole lot of trying to figure out what this might mean and coming up with something that often can be a perversion. It reminds me of, it hit me one time, about the golden rule. And that if people, sometimes people who are sincerely trying to do that, come up with really self-flagellating kinds of things to do, I think because they're not in a state of grace and they're trying to figure out what this might mean and they come up with these strange self-punishing

[72:55]

And so I guess I don't want to be too nihilistic and negative, but I do think that that's kind of involved here. And so it's kind of, this idea is something to be aware of and to kind of note. But it's kind of, I guess what I'm thinking is you don't, It doesn't make sense to me that you try to give without the expectation of merit. If you give without the expectation of merit, that's great, but you can't make yourself do it if that's not your... you know what I mean? Well, I know what you're talking about. So the question is, is there more than one way a skinny cat here? What are we going to do about this? Well, I think being aware of it and watching, just noting yourself in a non-judgmental way.

[73:59]

I mean, I noticed, I won't go into the detail of it, but a few weeks ago I did something that was extremely, for me at the time, satisfying, because it seemed to me to have this wonderful effect. And the person I did it for called me up and acknowledged what had happened, but I thought, the person would be just thrilled. And I think, again I won't go into all the detail, but the person I think was so kind of stunned. I don't know for sure what was going on because I haven't had that much back and forth about it, but I think probably the danger that the person was in was so overwhelming that there wasn't almost space to be so thrilled with the fact that the terrible thing didn't happen. And I thought, watching myself, you know, I was expecting more in the way of expression of joy and even thanks, etc.

[75:03]

I got some, and that's fine, but I, and I'm not a, you know, I just watched myself in that whole thing. And that's useful to me. But there was that me, you know, with this, oh boy! Well, I think particularly with this teaching there is the There's that sense that it is possible to see how you can get into that thing trying to do this, trying to put yourself physically into this and being sort of stuck in this very dualistic space and struggling with it. And of course if you're watching how you do things, you'll see yourself doing all sorts of things maybe you don't like, maybe you do like. But on the other hand, as you pay attention, there will be, on occasion, these opportunities, you'll see that there will be a little choice that takes place, and you'll see yourself making a little choice that turns out over this way or this way, depending on how you made that choice.

[76:09]

I wonder if instead of saying a state of grace, you say state of love. If you just do it, you put your heart there. Yeah, there's something, whatever it is. There's nothing else. They act. Right. Right. Well, it is, I think, both words are evocative of that freedom to act without attachment. freedom to act without holding something back or holding on to an idea of some future event that might take place as a result of this. There's also a different feeling of sun, a different kind of warmth, a different feeling of detachment.

[77:25]

Is that your experience, that there's something kind of warm that makes it local? That it isn't detachment, it isn't cold, it isn't like, oh, there's nobody there. In other words, it's not something... I think this detachment, or not being attached, we often associate with... Let's not even do that. What is the one thing that makes you just kind of connect and automatically do the thing that would bring joy and relief to others? You do that because you feel it. Well, you feel safe to just give it all away. But there's some response to the other person. Ron's across from me, so sorry, I'm just using your mind as a psychic example.

[78:28]

What is it if I look and the person right in front of me is in need, that if I'm in that state of grace or love, then someone can just automatically spread whatever What is that warm thing? Yeah, I lived down the street and I used to have this 75 Honda. And the hood, yeah, the hood was blue. And the hood was always, you know, would pop up and it was just so annoying. And then one day somebody hit it. And the bumper, the bumper was always falling off and falling down on me. And then one day, in the window, I went out there one day, just one ordinary day, one day, and somebody had a dick on my back. It was like, it was like, that was one of my best days of my whole life.

[79:31]

I mean, cause it was just all these little annoying pussy's there. I looked around at those monsters, and I looked at those monsters, and I was looking all down at them. I don't know who did that. So, but that happened. It's a miracle. So that must have been one of those, some of that kind of healing. Yeah, I was happy. And it made other people happy too. I think there's a lot of times that's not what I do. And a lot of times, like, you know, I might just, you know, I can just join in. And I just have to practice what I'm calling them.

[80:35]

So, um, but I think there are these times where I do this. That's something that's easy to do, but for whatever reason, I have that feeling and I can't get out. So there are so many types of that feeling. I just can't get out. I don't know what would happen if I just didn't follow the rules. You might disappear. Yeah, I think this is more like what you're talking about. It's a kind of disappearance. Suddenly, the people or whoever they were that are just kind of like... There's something just not involved in that stuff. It's just something happening. It's like leaping off a cliff.

[81:45]

I think that... that... that warping is what it is like in taking an action which is totally unexpected, even to yourself. Well, you know, there's these cases of suicide in Hawaii. People have jumped off the colony and the wind has blown them back. Blown them back? Yes. You mean they weren't allowed to... They jumped off, and then a gust of wind slew them back. And they changed their mind, right? Well, I think with this scenario... Partially, what is so important about what you're bringing up is that the language we're dealing with here, I think is often evocative of withdrawal.

[82:52]

Withdrawal from contact. So I think it's very important to, this is kind of critical in terms of how we might practice this teaching, is that it's not necessarily about withdrawal or maybe not about withdrawal at all. It's about engagement in a way. If you're going to be fully engaged, well, how would you like to be fully engaged? This is the way it would be nice to be fully engaged. That kind of openness and warmth. And then, of course, it would be really nice to be doing this and never get stuck. Really nice. Yeah, I think it's sort of being able to respond with no expectations. Everything's fresh. Yeah. It seems like the Sutra's just kind of like trying to add itself to a set of conditions so that, like I say, if you have this thought, reading the Sutra is just going to make you more likely to act

[84:07]

Generously, you know, because somehow you'll already have that thought, but then you'll remember the centrist, the altered, like that'll give you that little last push that'll get you to do the thing. You know, that's strange. I'm just wondering if it's, in my sense, a little bit that it's sort of, you know, you don't want to do this, but you do it. I just have this sense, I mean, sometimes there's grace, and it's random, and it happens. But to me, it's realistic to think about. It does seem to me to be a developmental over time quality in which I have experienced becoming more, a little more giving than I used to be, which doesn't equip me necessarily here was going to suffer, yet do it.

[85:11]

As I know or sometimes I am. But that doing good things, even if I'm thinking, wow, that was great, is better than not doing it. Yeah, there is that truth. Going back to that thing earlier, that just merit, you know, good things happening is building up. Good things, yeah. But I still have to practice that, and do it a lot more, thinking I'm, what do I got? Yeah, so even though we don't acknowledge preparatory practices as such, you know, we talk about, okay, we're just going to start sitting out. In effect, our life takes those forms that we try, you know, we try to get with that attachment. You know, sometimes we get, sometimes something magical happens. We don't, you know, it sort of surprises us. And I go, yeah, that's why I'm doing this. I'm trying to kind of... But at a certain point, then of course you kind of... Maybe there's a sort of leap that's... I don't know how we can take it.

[86:29]

A torrent of commitments. It could be six on your own. We will take questions about six next time. Get your little gift to us. Yes. Let's see now. We talked about homework didn't we? What did we talk about? We talked about coming back. Count how many times you've given gifts in that attempt. Or even just one story about when that happened. Bring your marriage. You know, I expected, you know, there'd be some reflection and we'll check in with each other next time just to hear what the ways in which we And then we'll move on.

[87:38]

It is a really short sutra, so if people want to read it, don't you think it's okay for people to go ahead and read as much as they want? You read it, it's so short that maybe you read it twice a day. We used to have classes at San Francisco Zen Center on things like the Sendo Kai or the Kensei Mai. And the teacher would ask someone to recite it from memory. 75 Dharmas or whatever it was we were teaching. And everybody would take a turn reciting in memory. And the class just started a conversation from memory. So anyway, I didn't like to do that.

[88:46]

So we end with four vows. Is that how we usually end? May you be at peace with God.

[88:54]

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