Good morning. It's once again our extreme pleasure to welcome Chihako Okumura Orochi to Berkeley Zen Center. Okumura Orochi's work is well known to all of us, I think, through his translation of his teacher, Fujiyama Orochi's Opening the Hand of Thought and the Commentary on the Tenzo Kyogen, which is a favorite of his students to teach from, and the Bendo Law. He's also a well-known translator of the Kyogen. In fact, it was his teacher's curse and charity that forced him to come to the United States and teach yoga. He's been doing it since he was almost seven, and he formed lectures called Genzo Rays. He just finished one of those at San Francisco Zen Center, and has been his offering to us at the end of those teachings the last several years now. He's here to offer a day of teaching on his favorite course, Real Time.

[01:02]

Welcome. Thank you very much. Good morning, everyone. As I say every year, I'm really happy to be here to share Ryokan's poems. OK. Hello. Hello. Good morning. OK, as I say every year, I'm very happy to be here in this Zendo. Can you hear? Good. After one week of Genzo-e, dual linguistic, I give two 90-minute lectures in English.

[02:05]

So, today, again, I'm going to talk on Ryokan's poem from this book, Great Fool. I think this is the best English book on Ryokan, and there are many translations of many of his poems. and in this book the author has sorted his Chinese poems into several sections, and each year I talk about a few poems in certain sections, and this year I'd like to talk on the section entitled Butterfly Dream. Probably you are familiar with this expression, Butterfly Dream. that came from the Chinese classic Chuan Tzu. Chuan Tzu is one of the very important Chinese Daoist philosophers.

[03:15]

He lived about a few hundred years before CE, and Buddhism arrived from India to China around the first CE. common era, so Chuan Tzu was much earlier than Buddhism was introduced to China. And yet later, when Buddhism was introduced to China, Chinese people, in the beginning Chinese Buddhists, interpreted Buddhist teachings in terms of a Daoist idea. So, in the beginning, Daoism and Buddhism are somehow mixed together. So, in order to study Chinese Buddhism, especially Zen Buddhism, to have some understanding about Daoist teaching is kind of important.

[04:21]

And also, Ryokan, was a Japanese Soto Zen monk who lived in the second half of the 18th century to the beginning of the 19th century, so about 200 years ago. And he loved Chuan Tzu. I said, Ryōkan was trained as a Sōtōzen monk at a monastery named Entsū-ji in present-day Okayama Prefecture until he received Dharma transmission from his teacher. And about ten or more years later, he went back to his hometown in Echigo. but we don't know where he was and what he did during that more than 10 years. Probably he was traveling around the different places in the country.

[05:27]

But there is one kind of essay written by certain scholar whose name was Kondo Banjo, he was a scholar of Confucianism. He wrote about his memory, his memory about a monk he met 20 or 30 years ago, before he wrote that essay. He met in the mountains in Shikoku. Shikoku is one of the four main islands in Japan. And this person was traveling. So he was still young. And when he was walking in the mountains, he heard heavy rain. So he tried to find a shelter. And fortunately he found a very small hermitage. And he asked the person who was living in that hermitage to, you know, give him a shelter.

[06:34]

And the person, that was a monk, allowed him to stay. And the person, the scholar wrote, this monk didn't say anything. He was a very quiet person. And just he nodded and accepted him to stay with him. And probably that was during the rainy season. We have about one month, or more than one month maybe, one and a half month rainy season in June and early July. Probably that was during the rainy season. The rain continued for three days. So the person stayed, the scholar stayed with that monk for three days. And the first few days, the first day, he didn't say, that monk didn't say anything. So he was curious about who is this monk.

[07:37]

And in that small hut, he had nothing but two books. And those two books are Chuang Tzu. and he found this monk's calligraphy and the calligraphy was very beautiful so he was impressed by the monk's calligraphy and he remembered the name of the monk in the calligraphy and it said Ryokan from Echigo so Many years later, he remembered that monk, that strange monk in Shikoku was welcome. And if that is true, then for I don't know how long, but while he stayed in that hermitage, the only book he read was Chuan Tzu.

[08:40]

And I also, when I was young, I also very much liked Chuan Tzu. Before I became Dogen's student, I thought I was a student of Chuan Tzu. He's really... I don't like so much, you know, I don't like Lao Tzu so much. I like Chuan Tzu better. Lao Tzu is very quiet. and no laughing, but in Chuan Tzu there are so many interesting stories and a lot of humor. And this expression, Butterfly Dream, is one of the interesting, not a story, but a metaphor about Chuan Tzu's understanding of life. I found an English translation of that section of trance by Burton Watterson.

[09:46]

This is very short, so let me read where this expression, Butterfly Dream, came. It said, Chuang-Chu. Chu was his personal name. Chuang was his family name. So, Chuang-Chu dreamed he was a butterfly. So, he had a dream, and within his dream, he was a butterfly. And a butterfly, flitting and fluttering, flitting and fluttering, around, happy with himself, and doing as he pleased. So he was, within his dream, he was a butterfly, and he, you know, enjoyed, you know, flying around.

[10:48]

And he didn't know, in the dream, he didn't know he was Chuan Chu. So he was completely a butterfly. But, suddenly, he woke up. And, there he was. A solid and unmistakable Trang Chu. So, suddenly, I woke up from that dream. Then, he found he was not a butterfly, but a Trang Chu. But he didn't know. He didn't know if he was Trump too, who had dreamed he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Trump too. This is a very interesting story. So, he was a butterfly in his dream.

[11:57]

But, when he woke up, he found he was not a butterfly, but he was Chan Chu. But, he started to think, is this Chan Chu who was dreaming as a butterfly? Or, is this butterfly? Am I dreaming of a butterfly? So, the dream and reality, you know, penetrating each other, and he didn't know which is real reality, but the meaning of this expression, butterfly dream. And, a few more sentences. Between Chuan Chu and a butterfly, there must be some distinction. between dream and reality, there must be some distinction, there must be some difference. This is called the transformation of things.

[12:58]

So, Chuan Tzu called this, you know, transformation of things. This is the story where this expression, that high dream, comes from. and Ryokan really likes this analogy about our life. Shortly after I started to practice Dazen, I sat for a five-day session at Antaiji in Kyoto when I think I was 20 years old. I was very young. When you are young, you know, time doesn't fly. Especially when you are young. Especially five years or so. During the 5-day session we sat for 15 minutes and we sat 14 times a day for 5 days.

[14:01]

That was our session. I think maybe third or fourth day, I felt like I was sitting in this posture forever from the beginningless beginning. And I felt like, you know, at that time my name was not Shouhaku. Shouhaku is my Dharma name given when I was ordained. But, anyway, I called me Shouhaku. I felt like 20 years of life after my birth was like a dream. And I found this really interesting. And probably that experience made me to continue to sit. I wondered, what is this?

[15:03]

And I tried to study. you know, for a dozen years. So it was really, to me, an important experience, which is a dream. You know, usually we think the experience in our sitting is like a dream, and to be shohak is actually a real person. But in my garden I felt the opposite. I finally So, you know, I finally woke up from the dream of shohaku. And which is reality, and which is dream. That is the introduction of my talk today. So, I'd like to talk about a dream in Buddhism. And this word, dream, is used in two different ways or usage. Those two are almost opposite.

[16:06]

Of course, when Buddha attained so-called enlightenment under the Bodhi tree, he said he attained Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi. And Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi in English is something like unsurpassable, complete, perfect awakening. So, bodhi means awakening. Awakening means before that he was sleeping or in a dream. And of course dream is, in this case, dream is a delusion. And when we awake, we first see the true reality of all beings as it is. But before that, we cannot see or we don't see the reality of all beings. We are within our dream. And within our dream, we create the picture of the world within our mind using words and concepts.

[17:14]

You know, the picture of the world produced in our mind is a dream. And when body or awakening, in terms of enlightenment, is awakened from that dream, we found what we think, what we see, or the picture of the world produced in our mind is not real reality. So, when Buddha awakened to the reality, he found that is a dream. Production of a mind. So, all concepts and perceptions, concepts and definitions, and the picture of the world we produce using those things is a dream. And when we awake, we awake to the reality of emptiness.

[18:19]

There is no such thing really. That is one usage of this word, dream. So, we need to wake up from this dream. That is one of the usages of this word, dream, in Buddhism. But there is another one. And it's kind of very interesting to me, that is, when we wake up to the reality of emptiness, that means nothing, all beings have no fixed self-nature. So, that is the meaning of emptiness. Everything is impermanent, and therefore always changing. So there is no fixed identity, in this case called Shōhaku. Shōhaku is just a name of this movement, which is always changing. You know, when I was 20, I was much stronger.

[19:23]

But I didn't really understand what Buddhism means, the meaning of this practice. But somehow I really wanted to practice. So I devoted my entire life to this practice without any understanding. But now I think, I believe I have some understanding. But my body is not so strong, so I couldn't sit so much. Now I cannot sit so much when I was twenty. Anyway, which is true Shōhaku? I don't know. That was Shōhaku almost 40 years ago. And 40 years later, this is Shōhaku, which is real Shōhaku, or true Shōhaku. So, there's no such thing called true Shōhaku. 40 years ago, I was a 20-year-old student. and now I'm 60 years so-called Buddhist priest.

[20:26]

Which is a real thing? We don't know. So, there's no such fixed reality. So, this reality of impermanence and changing without any fixed identity is like a dream. So, when we wake up, we found reality is like a dream. So, within a dream, we think reality is something fixed. Something, you know, solid. Like what is said in Chuang-Tzu's story. When he woke up from the dream of a butterfly, he found this is a solid Chuang-Tzu. But when we woke up, we found there's no such solid, you know, shouhaku. That is another meaning of a dream. And, for example, in the very end of the Diamond Sutra, there is a verse, a very famous verse.

[21:38]

Here is it. I forgot it, but I talked during the drawing, but it said our life, not our life, but all conditioned beings are like a dream, like a phantom, and also like bubbles, or shadow, or flash of lightning, or dewdrop. So we should see you know, all the conditioned beings, like a dream. So this is, when we awake to the reality of all beings, we see everything is like a dream. But when we are dreaming, we see everything is solid.

[22:39]

Now this almost opposite meaning of dream are actually penetrating each other. That is the way, not only Ryokan, but you know, the masters used this word, dream, which can mean both delusion, in which we see everything is really existing. Shōhaku is really here. And yet, when we awake to that reality from that dream of Shōhaku is really here, I see Shōhaku is like a dream. You know, these are very, to me, very interesting. And this is a very important point in understanding Zen teaching. You know, for example, Dogen Genji also wrote a chapter of Shobo Genzo entitled, uh, Michu Setsumu.

[23:44]

That means, uh, relating dream within a dream. this expression, talking about dream, speaking about dream within that dream, it came also from Chuan Tzu. So, our life is like talking about dream within the dream. And, I'd like to introduce one poems by Ryokan about this kind of, what do you call, interconnection of two different kinds of dreams. In this poem, Ryokan also quotes from Chuan Tzu. So, to me, these ideas are all kind of related to each other. His poem, if you have this book in great full, it appears on page 184, if you want to check.

[24:56]

The poem is as follows. Who was it said? Who was it said? Names are the dust of reality. Names are the dust of the reality. Dust of the reality means name is not reality itself. Reality itself is like a host. That name is a guest. That means it's coming and going. That means, you know, this is a pair of reading glass. That is the name of this thing. But this is a pair of reading glass. Only when I use this as a reading glass, then, you know, this is broken. You know, I buy cheap reading glass, so it's often broken. Sometimes I sleep on this. You know, if one part is broken, I cannot use this as a reading glass anymore.

[26:04]

Then I change the name of this as a junk or garbage. So the name is just like a guest. During the time I can use this as a reading glass, as a device to read something, I call this a reading glass. But when that period is over, then this will have a different name. So name is like a ghost, even though this doesn't really change. or same, but we change the name depending upon the relationship between this person and this thing. So, name is like a traveler or a guest coming and going. This is what Chuang-Tzu said. So, he is, I mean, Ryokan is asking about this saying by Chuang-Tzu.

[27:13]

Concert name is simply, name is not real thing, but real thing is something else, or this is real thing, but the living grass is not real thing. So concert name or concept or definition is not a real thing. But the real thing is this thing and this thing. So, shou-haku doesn't mean... The word shou means true. And haku means broad. That is my dharma name. But I'm not so true. Not always true. True or light. And I'm not so broad. But somehow my name is true and broad. Often, you know, something true is narrow, but my name is kind of contradicted. That, you know, contradicted name, Sho and Haku, is simply my name, not me. So, the reality of this, you know, thing, this person, and this word, or concept, true and broad, has no connection.

[28:25]

So, Shōhaku is just a name of this person. After this person became a Buddhist monk, before that I had a different name. And, you know, after seven days after my birth, I didn't have no name. Because my parents didn't decide my name. After, within one week, they had to register my name to their, you know, town office. So, first seven days of my life, I had nearly no name. And that is the real name, I think. True name is no name. I think that is what Lao Tzu said. Anyway, so this is within Daoist philosophy, this is really true. And we think, we agree with it. The name is not the reality itself. Or concept, or words, or whatever material we use to think is not real thing.

[29:35]

Real thing is beyond thinking. That is what even Dogen thought. But Dogen had a question about this thing. These words have come down to us from ancient times, from Chuan Tzu, more than 2,000 years ago. And it has been transmitted. That means at least some people agreed with this idea. But he, Rokan is like Dogen, always questioning. But, however, but even if people know that names aren't real, but even if people know that names aren't real, they don't see that reality itself has no root.

[30:42]

You know, we understand name or concept is not real thing, but we don't see the reality also has no root. So, this is a question, Ryokan's question, from the Buddhist teaching of emptiness. Even the real thing has no fixed identity. So, not only the name or concept, but also actual thing, is also no... the things that we usually call reality has also no fixed identity as a real thing. Because that is what is the meaning of, you know, impermanence and anatoman, or egolessness, or no substance. So, we should awaken to that reality also. That is Ryokan's point of question.

[31:49]

So, they don't see that reality itself has no root. Name and reality, both are beside the point. I don't really agree with this translation. Both are beside the point. I think what Ryokan is saying is those two are not really connected to each other. Name is name, and that is empty. And reality is reality, and reality is also empty. It's really like a dream. And finally, Logan said, from this understanding, not only name and concept, but also real thing is like a dream. From this understanding, Logan says, just naturally find joy in ever-changing flow. Just naturally find joy.

[32:55]

in the ever-changing flow. Ever-changing flow is, you know, the things are always coming and going. And the situation and condition of our body and mind are also always changing. And we... we need those, you know, six sense organs encounter with the object of these six sense organs. And this is one of the points we studied during Rath Densoe. You know, Shakyamuni Buddha said, our six sense organs, of us, and the object of the six sense organs, there is a burning fire, and we make our So, our practice, our Buddhist practice is extinguish the fire made by three poisonous minds.

[34:01]

Then cool down. Then continue to live. That means when we awake, wake up from the dream that there is some fixed thing, and we cling to something we like, or something that gives us a pleasant sensation, then I want to grasp this and make this thing as my possession. And yet often we cannot possess it, so I start to run after those things to get it. Or, often we encounter some things which give us an unpleasant sensation. We want to stay awake. And yet, they come somehow. So, we become angry. Or, we want to escape from that thing.

[35:03]

Or, we have hatred. And our life becomes running after something or escaping from something. That is the fire caused by three poisonous minds. And by seeing those things, instead of being perceived by those objects as real things, we need to wake up from the dream that those things are really there. And this thing, this five skandhas, is really here. and I can possess something, or I want, or I should get something. That thing. That is a dream. And that dream causes the fire of three poisonous minds. So, wake up from that dream. Allow us to live in a more peaceful, stable way of life.

[36:07]

That is what we do when we sit We don't chase after anything, and we don't escape from anything. We just settle down right now, right here, and see things, everything is like a dream. And when we wake up from that dream, we start to see everything is like a dream. To me, that is very interesting. And that is our practice. So... This understanding of two meanings of dream really has a deep meaning. Very useful to understand what Buddha taught, or what Dogen taught to us, and what is the meaning of that understanding within our practice today. within our right now, right here.

[37:11]

How can we wake up from that dream in which we grasp and cling to things? So, open our hand. Is there a way we wake up from that dream? And then we wake up, we start to see all those things are like dreams. It's kind of a paradox. But to see this paradox is really important and interesting, that makes our life more kind of a joyful, I mean enjoyable, to see things from both sides. And in the case of Dorengen's teaching, this is what he said when he says something like, we should see forms, all forms, and no form. Do you understand? You know, these are all forms, but those forms are like a dream. So we have to see no form, or formless reality.

[38:15]

But those are both a dream, both dreams. You know, there is no form is a dream. If we think this no form is reality, and we try to escape from our idea of forms, and try to get this idea of no form, then no form becomes a form. And again we get into another dream. So when we really wake up, we need to wake up from both sides. Then our life becomes very interesting. You know, we cannot grasp anything, but we cannot ignore anything, even the dream. Even, you know, dream is not reality, or concept is not real thing, but there is some reason, or cause, that we have ability to create concept, and we have ability to create something unreal, you know, like

[39:26]

Even the writing poems have something to do with creating something unreal, like a dream. And if we completely or simply negate this ability to think of something unreal, then human life is not so interesting. You know, movies or novels or poems or paintings, or even visions, or visions in our spiritual life, or spiritual practice, are all about our ability to see something that is not in front of us. It's our ability to think something, to create something unreal. And yet those have very important meaning in our life. So, in order to enjoy in a dream, we have to see dream is reality, or reality is like dream.

[40:38]

And we don't be deceived by the dream. But we see dream as dream. Then we can enjoy the dream without being without making a fire of free poisonous mind. I think that is what I want to say this morning. And this afternoon I'm going to talk on several poems by Ryokan about the dream. Could you read the poem just through one more time? who wasn't, said, names are the dust of reality. These words have come down to us from ancient times. But even if people know that names aren't real, they don't see that reality itself has no root.

[41:50]

Name reality birth hour beside that point. Just naturally find joy in the ever-changing flow. Okay? It's funny. Any questions? I want to ask you two questions if I can. First one is Are there five scandals or twenty five scandals or two hundred and fifty thousand scandals? That's the first question. Or no scandals? Which one do you like? I'm free to have as many scandals as I like. Is that what you said? Which one do you like? Oh, I have no scum.

[42:52]

That's good. Me too. It's your choice. Can I ask a second question? Sure, please. Eiken Roshi, in one of the books that he wrote, described some teaching of samurai in medieval Japan, which said that The sword you raise is a dream, or empty, and the body of your enemy is empty, so just swing through the body and do not be disturbed." So I was wondering, like, I was imagining taking a sword to the body of Shohaku and cutting through it, and then there's red blood on the floor of Artsendo. Is there any problem about that? I'm not sure. I think, I think Eto Kimberle discussed about that teaching. That was Takuan, I think.

[43:55]

Takuan Soho, who said, the Zen Master who said that thing. And Eto Kimberle discussed about that story and that theory or idea in his book, Mind of Clover, right? About the precept, good and bad. So, from that point of view, there's no good and bad. That is what, you know, the teaching of Taekwondo meant. So, A. T. Kim Ryoshi kind of criticized about that position, so-called absolute position, which negates the morality or ethics, or good and bad. When I talk about precepts we receive, I always start from the famous verse from Dharmapada, That says, do everything good. No, don't do anything evil. Do everything good and keep your mind pure.

[44:58]

And this is the teaching of all Buddhas. I think this is really the very basis of our precept or ethics in Buddhism. So, we should not do anything evil and we should do everything good. And the third line, keep our mind pure, is going beyond good and bad. If we cling to good and think, I am a good person because I did such and such good things, then that is a problem. Or if I think, that person did such and such bad things, so that person is that person. This discrimination and clinging to good and bad is a problem. So, the third line being, keep your mind pure means we should be free from discrimination between good and bad.

[46:02]

So, there are two sets of teachings. And often it is said, you know, to go beyond good and bad is enlightenment. or to see absoluteness, beyond discrimination. But I don't agree with that understanding. And I think in that book, A. T. Kinloch said, you know, to see emptiness is to see absoluteness. And that is enlightenment. So, from absolute position, I think A. T. Kinloch said, from that absolute position, what Taekhwan said is right. But I don't agree with that point with Etkin Roshi. The absolute position is not seeing emptiness, or beyond good and bad. But, for example, in the Heart Sutra, it says form is empty, and emptiness is form.

[47:09]

And often it is understood as form is relative or discriminative and emptiness is absolute or beyond discrimination. And I don't agree with this understanding. Because the Heart Sutra said that form is emptiness and emptiness is form. This should not be separated into two parts. But form is emptiness, emptiness is home, should be understood as one word. We can say this part is relative and that part is absolute. Because if we understand in that way, you know, this relative and absolute are relative. That is another point we discussed or studied when this game is over. True or true absolute, or absolute absolute, should include creativity.

[48:17]

So, emptiness and form should be always together. This is another meaning of this, you know, two meanings of dream. Does it make sense? Yes, Khenpo, she agrees with what you just said. So, that's good. I read something about Hakamaya Noriaki. Pardon me? Do you know Hakamaya Noriaki? Oh, the Japanese Buddhist scholar? Yes. He has these two etymologies of the word Nirvana, and he says one of them is to uncover, and one of them is to extinguish. Extinguish. And you use the word extinguish in your talk to talk about... Extinguish the fire. What about the history of the word nirvana or the origin of it? Do you think it's discover or extinguish or which one I like? Because I'm not a scholar, so I really don't know the history or etymology of the word.

[49:29]

But to me, nirvana is not How can I say? How can I say? This word, extinguishment, sometimes is, you know, no existence. Disappear completely. But, you know, even the fire of three poisonous minds is extinguished, we are still alive. Even Buddha attained, you know, Anuttara Samyuktsam Bodhi, he lived, you know, another almost 40, 50 years. That he, and during that 50 years, he was in nirvana. So, it's, even if the word means, nirvana means extinguishment, it doesn't mean to stop being. How can we live? without the fire of sleep-poisonous mind, that is nirvana, I think.

[50:30]

So I don't really know about the really original meaning of this word. Okay? Please. The last line of the poem you read, I can't repeat it now. It just surprised me. It's not my understanding. Really? To find the truth? Well, you know, now I'm enjoying this encountering. I'm sharing my understanding and it looks like you are enjoying what I'm talking. This is, you know, find the joy instead of, you know, have an argument, conflict and fighting. I've certainly seen a lot of joy in normal play. I mean, I see that. That is what it means. We can enjoy impermanence. What about in terms of which is a safe, sustained form.

[51:34]

I mean, people do enjoy it. That's why they come here. But put it out in the world. So we need to make effort to make change the world in the way we can enjoy. That is a versatile vow, I think. So now it's really difficult to enjoy, you know, this world. So we have to work with it. That is, I think, voice up or bow. And to do so, you know, anger doesn't work. Anger against that kind of condition or anger against people who make this word into the hell or samsara. If we work with our own anger against the unhealthy condition, you know, we create more unhealthy condition. So, we need to have a kind of a spirit of enjoying life.

[52:38]

I think. I think at least that is what Rokan is saying. Please. The way form and emptiness are one, would you say breathing is one with its inhaling and its exhaling in the same way? Yeah. Actually, during this Genzo, I introduced my teacher Uchiyama Koshoro's poem about life and death. And he said, you know, modern people only know how to inhale and want to gain things, but we don't know how to exhale. That's why we are almost suffocating. So we need to learn how to inhale and how to exhale. And this is about life and death, or birth and death. And birth and death, or life and death, forms one life. Life is good, or positive, and death is negative.

[53:41]

But life and death together forms one life. I think that is a really important point. Please? Isn't the Dharma play It's going on all the time, not just in the Zundo, but in the world too. And the words are not Buddhist words, but the words are just the guests anyway. So the drama play, the joy, the flow is always happening. I think so. So it's not a question, right? Please. As your practice has matured from a man of 20 to a man of 60, how have your sleeping dreams changed? Sleeping dream? When I sleep? Well, I think it's kind of interesting. For example, during session, I usually don't dream.

[54:43]

I simply sleep, probably because I'm tired. I have no energy to dream. Or maybe I had enough dreams during sitting. I don't need another extra dream. But basically, I don't remember my dreams. Some people describe their dreams in detail, but I cannot believe I don't remember my dreams in such a detail. I remember I dreamed. I had a dream, but somehow I don't remember. So, I'm not sure. OK? Any other questions? OK. Thank you.

[55:47]

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