Good morning, everyone. Can you hear me okay? Yes, good. Well, it's always good to start out with a mistake. Our practice, our life, continuous mistake. I tried to type out this poem that I wanted to share with you, and Zoom frustrated me, so I gave up. Anyhow, just a little housekeeping first. Remind you that we begin a four-session weekly class on Thursday evening at 7.15 on the Three Doors of Liberation and on the web resources so you can read about them. There's been some confusion. The three doors of liberation are not the same as the three marks of existence.

[01:07]

Three marks of existence are impermanence, non-self and suffering, non-self and nirvana. And the three doors of liberation are really a different system. It's emptiness, signlessness and wishlessness. And if you want to explore, please join the class. There'll be time for discussion. And also, tomorrow evening, is it 7 o'clock, Anna? Is that correct? At 7 o'clock, I'll be having, I'm going to resume my Abbott's T's, which were suspended earlier in the fall. And I think there's still some places, and Hannah can write her email in the chat, and you're welcome to contact her and have a place at the tea.

[02:09]

I'd love to talk with you. So, it's a bright, very sunny, crisp, early winter morning here in Berkeley. And this is our first Saturday talk of 2022. And it's also just one day past the one year anniversary of Sojin Roshi's death. So in our usual way of thinking, Sojin Roshi died at home January 7th, 2021. And as most of you know, for 53 years, he cultivated the empty field of Zazen at Berkeley Zen Center.

[03:18]

He was widely respected and deeply loved. certainly by those of us here in his home sangha, by many people that he practiced with at San Francisco Zen centers, the various centers and other places that he went and other places that his teachings, whether by lectures or by printed material reached. And we see that Yesterday at the memorial service, we had students from India. We had a student from Iran. There were people in Europe who wanted to attend, but it was literally the middle of the night there. And I think that being measured is warm, ordinary way.

[04:26]

that he learned from his teachers on no gaining idea. Unswerving commitment to Zazen and to the community of practitioners, which was also something he learned from Suzuki Roshi and his other early teachers. So yesterday, We had a one-year memorial, our first annual memorial, where people could address Sojin, talk to him, talk about him. And I shared a poem that I had written earlier in the week, again this morning, and talk about it, talk about its setting perhaps a bit. This is what I tried to type out.

[05:29]

It's called The White Dragon's Relics. Like John Yuan of the Great Tongue, I foolishly search for the relics of our late master in ashes and dreams. Knowing they are not hidden there, such relics be found in billowing waves and scudding clouds, but in my heart and mind, where Sharira pearls are plentiful. When my eyes are open, these relics and deeds shine like dragon's teeth lying on the bare ground of Zazen. Where any of us may pick them up. With upright posture and a free mind.

[06:33]

So that's the poem. This poem references a very well-known koan. It's case 55 record, which is a 12th century Chinese collection of koans or teaching stories. And its title we use in English is called Dao Wu's Condolence Call. And the turning question of this koan is where the student asks the teacher about the body in the coffin, alive or dead? And his teacher won't say. And his subsequent teacher won't say. Over the years, I've given several talks about this koan, and so has Sojin Roshi.

[07:48]

In fact, He used it in a talk that he gave November 7th, 2020, two months to the day before he died. And at that point, his illness was quite evident to all of us. So given that evidence, he offered to speak about birth and death. to all of us, to his students. So I'm going to come back to my poem in a moment, but I want to share with you a koan. So as I said, this koan seems to address the problem of birth and death. And Sojin says,

[08:51]

There's a koan in the Blue Cliff Record, Dawu's Condolence Call. I call this an old war horse. We drag out the old war horse and mount up again. We actually can't discuss it too many times because it may be our most important koan. That's what he said. Here is the main subject. I'm going to read you the text of the koan here. Dawu and his disciple Jianyuan went to a house to make a condolence call. Sojourner adds, this is the 8th century, by the way. In order to express sympathy in those days, they did not do funeral services. They just went to visit the deceased and the family to acknowledge the deceased. So they get to this house. And they're in the presence of the family.

[09:53]

And Chen Yuan. And said. Alive or dead? Chen Yuan brought up the great question. Da Wu said. I won't say alive. And I won't say dead. Chen Yuan said. You say. Da Wu said. I won't say. So halfway back as they were returning to the temple, Chen Yuan said, tell me right away, teacher. If you don't tell me, I'm going to hit you. Dao Wu said, you may hit him, you may hit me, but I won't say. So Chen Yuan hit him. They were, you could say in our potential parlance, they didn't pull any punches in those days.

[11:00]

So he hit him. In time, but he never got an answer. In time, Da Wu died. And Jin Yuan, the master, Shi Shuang. Shi Shuang. He told Shershuang about his exchange with Dao Wu and asked what was his point of view. Shershuang said, I won't stay alive and I won't stay dead. Chen Yuan said, why won't you stay? And Shershuang just said, I won't stay, I won't stay. At these words, Jin Yuan had an insight. So a little bit. We don't know how much. Sometimes the koans are reticent about describing the depth of somebody's awakening.

[12:15]

But it's also true that that depth varies. So it might have been a little bit of light. It might have been a lot of light, a great awakening. So then the story flashes forward. This gets to the point that I bring up in my poem. Later, Jun Yuan, carrying a hoe, went up and down in the lecture hall as if he were searching for something. So, you know, he's in the hall, carrying a whole gun back and forth. Shershuang said, what are you doing? Jin Yuan said, I'm searching for the relics of our dead teacher. Limitless expanse of mighty roaring waves.

[13:21]

Foaming waves wash the sky. What relic of the deceased teacher do you seek? So returning to my poem, the center of this poem turns on the image of relic which is the word for it in San Charira which is may not be something that you're familiar with. So this is mentioned in the case as Chinua says that he's looking for the relics and but here I'm speaking about us. So I say, such relics can't be found in billowing waves and scudding clouds, but in my heart and mind where Sharira pearls are plentiful.

[14:32]

So say something about Sharira. Because these are precious items. Buddhist tradition. Sharira refers to Buddhist relic, although you also find reference to them in other traditions, in Catholic traditions, in Eastern Orthodox traditions where they would have a, they would find one of these relics or a finger bone or, you know, another piece of bone from the body of a saint. And in Buddhist terms, what they refer to are these strangely pearl-like objects that one can find when one sifts through the ashes after cremation.

[15:47]

and they're particularly, they seem to be plentiful in the remains of Buddhist masters. So if you go to the San Francisco Buddhist temple, which is the Jodo Shinshu temple on Bush Street, San Francisco, big temple. And on the roof, they have a stupa. And in that stupa, they have purportedly relics from Shakyamuni Buddha. Relics were divided into, for some reason I'm thinking something like 17 portions. I could be wrong about that number. But they were divided and distributed across... India and some small portion of relics was given to church from the temple in Boggaya, the Buddhist temple in Boggaya.

[17:08]

So whether these are actually the relics or not, I once went to Sri Lanka. And in the small city of Kandy, they have the temple of the tooth. And they have a tooth of Chakyamuni Buddha. And I went to pay my respects. And you know what, it was a long line. And, you know, what you get to see is box that holds the box that holds the box that maybe holds the tooth. That's as close as I got to it. You know, but supposedly if you visit your within the magic aura of the Buddhist tooth.

[18:10]

It's wonderful. So. But these Shurira are. They seem to be actual things. They look a little like a crystal or a bead-like object, and you can see images of them online. And they're very important since they seemingly embody the spiritual knowledge or teachings, realizations of these spiritual masters. And also they're taken as evidence of their mastery. Sifting through the ashes and finding the sharura is like confirmation of their mastery. And so you'll find them, you know, when they've been accumulated, you'll find them in a small golden urn structure.

[19:18]

that is often sitting within the image of that Buddha or that master. And it's kind of a related practice at a Buddhist funeral. I don't know how much it's done these days, but after the The cremation, you know, when we see cremation, what we receive usually is a package of pretty much ground up ashes. Ground up, but, you know, those have already been processed to some degree because it doesn't come out when after cremation, There certainly are ashes, but there also are chunks of bone, et cetera.

[20:24]

And so there's a ritual in Japanese rites called katsuage, where relatives pick the bones out of the ashes and transfer them to the funerary urn using chopsticks with two relatives holding them, which is very unusual, two relatives holding chopsticks together. And so, they're also, in a Buddhist funeral, you're also looking for these sharira. So, Jin Yuan is tells Shishuang he's looking for the relics of his late teacher.

[21:28]

And my son, he's offering us a teaching. He's doing us a favor by by playing, knowing very well he's not going to find the relics by running a hole across the Dharma Hall. I mean, it's like just you can imagine, you know, if we took a broom or a hole in the zendo and looked for Sojin's relics, I don't think there's any of us that would be expecting to find them there. So where are they? Where are Sojin's relics?

[22:35]

I think that the relics are in his words. They're in the images that we have. Memories of things that he said to us. Memories of simple, simply seeing how he moved. You know, for me, I said yesterday, just like when I'm up in my office, up in the attic, my ear is always listening for the sound of his car door shutting. Or the door to the office where I'm sitting now, which always had a little, he tended to shut it with a little slam.

[23:46]

And so I'm listening for that. even though I know that I'm not likely to hear it. Every now and then I'll hear a door, a car door close, you know, sort of right outside the house, and for a moment I'll think it's him. Or I'll go to my kitchen and look down at the office here, And for a moment, just think, oh, maybe the blinds are open. And maybe he's there. Come down and just talk with him. These are relics. These are sharira that live in my mind. And...

[24:50]

or they live in some place in my body. And I imagine that this is true for many of you. And also, it's not just true for Sojin. It's true for all the people that we met in our life who are gone. a certain piece of music will come on and we will bring them completely to life. This is in part what what Jihyuan was playing at was not, you know, he knew very well that the relics that we're looking for are not something external.

[26:00]

They're not some precious remains of a teacher or a loved one. Everything else in our practice we're turned to look inward. Where are these relics in ourselves? In process. I hope to talk more about this in the next few months, but... For a while I've been reading the writings and the teachings of Shinran, who was almost a contemporary of Dogen and is the founder of Shin Buddhism, of Jodo Shinshu, which is the largest Buddhist sect in Japan.

[27:20]

and Soto was the second largest. And it's a very wonderful and subtle teaching. It tends to be characterized as other power. And Japanese Buddhism is kind of roughly divided into Two ways of approaching Buddhism. There's the self power schools and the other power schools. And Zen is nominally a self power school. And Shin Buddhism is nominally another power school where basically other power means we can't get there on our own. we awaken because of the generosity of Buddhists and ancestors who are sharing Buddha nature with us.

[28:35]

From my perspective, this is a completely pointless distinction that can't see how to separate self-power and other power. Dogen says in Genjo Koan, when the 10,000 things come forth and actualize themselves, this is enlightenment. So that's other power. That's the 10,000 things coming forward, and we're one of those 10,000 things, and so we are awakened with them. And if you look at our practice, if you look at life and probably this applies for many of us, that there's something that happened, something we heard, something we read, that led us to think

[29:57]

come and learn about practicing Zen. And for many of us, this was far outside perhaps the cultural environment that we grew up in. There was no Zen in Great Neck, New York where I grew up in. It wasn't there. And yet when I read Chinese, And Japanese poetry, even in high school, there was something in me that resonated with it. So that, what was that? Is that self power? Is that other power? You know, each of us had to, at some point, walk through the gate here to find the practice. You know, we had to walk through literally on our own two legs.

[31:02]

So there was some self-power involved in that. But how we came to do that is very mysterious. It's the giving of Buddha nature to us that awakens us, that resonates. The Buddha nature vibrates on the same wavelength as something within us. And I think that's what we're talking about when we speak about these relics. That something in something that we received from Sojin, from his generosity, from Suzuki Roshi, from all the Buddha ancestors.

[32:09]

You could see the sharira as a seed. And those seeds are sown widely. and they land on our fertile innermost soil, if the soil wasn't there, they wouldn't germinate. That the soil is there, is just another gift that we've been given. But perhaps that gift wouldn't be actualized fully if the seed hadn't been planted, if the sharira didn't exist.

[33:12]

I don't know what I don't know what would have happened in my life if I hadn't come here and met Sojin Roshi. Certainly I would not be talking to you. I don't know what I would have been doing. I don't even really know if I would be alive. So when we receive these relics and we find them within ourselves, the opportunity to share them. Reminded of, I guess it was Ross's comment yesterday about Sojin telling people

[34:22]

You may have given me a gift, but don't be surprised or don't be upset if you see that I've given that gift to someone else. Well, that's true of, it's not just true of teapots or pieces of calligraphy or clothing, but it's actually true of the teachings themselves. But in the giving of that gift, in the finding of these relics, I don't think we should put them in a stupa on the altar in our home. We should give them away and let them mysteriously resonate with anyone else who encounters them.

[35:28]

So fundamentally, the relic, the relics that were left to us, just the practice of Zazen. This ordinary, no-gaining mind. And we cherish that not by enshrining it on an altar, but by doing it and making it as widely available as we can. Somebody spoke to me yesterday. a member who has moved away, and they've moved to a place where there doesn't seem to be any nearby Zen.

[36:41]

So I said, you know, well, why don't you start a Zen group? Just... You know how to do this. You've been doing this. And I'll help you. Other people will help you. So this is how we don't hold on to the relics for ourselves. We give them away. We keep the gift in circulation. I can't say. I don't think alive or dead is such a relevant question.

[37:58]

Just alive. Alive. which is not to say we don't grieve the loss of other loved ones, and we wish they were still around, but we have the possibility of really valuing their life in us. And the responsibility of sharing that as widely as we can. At the end of the koan, there's a verse by

[39:13]

He says, the golden relics exist. The golden relics exist. They still exist now. Foaming wash the sky. Where can you put them? Nowhere. The single sandal returned to India and is lost forever. So this, just to explain that a little, when in the Tang Dynasty,

[40:13]

In the last stage of his life, Bodhidharma decided to walk back to India. And the Chinese functionary, Song Yu, said to have seen him while walking through the Pamir Mountains, holding a single sandball. And he asked Bodhidharma where he was going. And Bodhidharma said, I'm going home. When asked why he was holding the shoe, Bodhidharma answered, you will know when you reach Shaolin Monastery. But don't mention that you saw me or you will meet with disaster. So. Song Yun goes back to the palace and he tells the emperor that he had seen Bodhidharma along the way.

[41:24]

And the emperor said, Bodhidharma is already dead and he's buried at Shaolin and he arrested. So this is the disaster. And he checked with Shaolin Monastery And the monk said the Bodhidharma had been buried, had been dead and buried behind the temple. But they went and they exhumed the grave. And what they found was there was Bodhidharma in the grave, but he was only wearing one sandal. And the monk said, Master has gone. bowed three times. So was he in the grave?

[42:25]

Was he walking in the mountains? Is he alive? This is placing the koan on top of another koan. And I think this is what we can ask ourselves about. We can ask ourselves today and tomorrow and for all our days to come. So with that, I'm going to end. And I will turn it over to Heiko to... share thoughts or ask questions. We have a little time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much for your interesting talk.

[43:28]

Everyone, please feel free to raise hand or to put your question in the chat for you. Thank you. We have a question from Lori. Please, Lori, go ahead. Hi. Good morning. Good morning, everybody. For some reason, this time when you told the story of the hoe, walking back and forth with the hoe, or whatever it was, rake hoe, whatever it was, I heard it like, and I wonder what you think of this, sort of like polishing the tile, like he was saying to the students in some way, what you're doing whatever they were doing is the equivalent of looking for the sharira by taking a rake around the zendo you know i don't know what they were doing that's kind of how i heard it you know like like this is this is what you're doing basically maybe looking for it in the words or looking for it in the forms or i don't know what but i wonder what you thought about that

[44:52]

I think that, yeah, I think that's right. I think that his doing that was demonstrative. And, you know, he was sharing something that was going to be seen and inquired about. And he knew that, I think that he, I guess I'd like to think he understood That the relics were not external. And that it's not, it's not just, there's not some externalization that is going to save us. But that they're right there for everyone to see. So I think that's right. I think it was a teaching. Thank you, Laurie.

[46:02]

Anyone else? We have a comment in the chat, which I'll read from Matt saying, it's good to start with a mistake, continuous mistake. Thank you so much for that at the beginning of your talk. Thank you. Thank you, Matt. The interesting thing at the start was just I'm not so, I'm not all that equanimous, you know. It pissed me off that I've made a mistake and then I couldn't erase it and it was frustrating and just, you know, and then very quickly, oh, that's the way it is. And so how do, You know, what can I learn from this?

[47:05]

You know, so if I made a mistake, this mistake, so what? Nobody's damaged by this. Nobody's hurt. Just feelings of competence which are relatively thin anyway. So thank you. Thank you for that, Matt. Nick, please go ahead with your question. Thanks for your talk, Jose. The story of Bodhinarma's sandal really struck me in the context of that koan and in thinking about Sojun's absence, presence, and loss of others. I think there's a kind of a doubleness that the sandal story points to that Bodhidharma was both in his grave and still walking.

[48:12]

And the sandals, it seems to imply that there's a potential for joining for this sandals to be reunited. And I find this in loss of people that there's a kind of a fixed image of who the person is or was that has a life of its own and but also the the person as you said is is now within us the and there there's a process that is unfolding of how We express that presence of them in us that is mysterious. And the two, maybe, do you think they're together?

[49:17]

Well, first of all, let me just point you towards another koan, which you may know. Seicho and her soul are separated. Yeah. Someone can write that. Seijo and her soul. It's a folk tale, a Japanese folk tale about a young woman who, well, I don't have to tell the story, but it's the same kind of thing. Which one is the real, the punchline of the story is, which one is the real Seijo? In the grave or the one that married and had three children and went off to live a life? And they encounter each other. But just, you know, I'm thinking about all the people that we love. We've lost are complex.

[50:20]

And they're not one sided. And they're not all. Everything that. Everything that Sojin did was not necessarily wisdom, nor is this true of any of the teachers that I've met. They were human. But I think that the sharira, to extend this a little further, the sharira is purified by fire. So what's left... is something shining and powerful. So what's left of someone that we love, you know, if we remember, we can remember the good, maybe the not so good things or stupid things that they did. But what really remains and lives in us is what we can really learn and what they've given us.

[51:31]

And that's a wonderful gift. And it's something that has gone through the flames, right? And so I hadn't thought about that. But that's what your comment brings to mind. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Nick. We now have a question from Barbara Joan and Jeff. Despite our three names, we don't speak as one. I'm the questioner and I get to have two names. Happy New Year. Thank you so much. Thank you for your interesting and broad talk. It brought up many thoughts and questions for me. And one thing I was thinking is that As you said, the relic should not just be put in the temple or in the home or kept.

[52:36]

The relics in my life, I tend to keep things and I symbolize a lot. I'm also a poet. And that in a way, these relics from both from my own personal past, past, not so from the people who have died, whether they're photographs of them or things that they gifted to me, you know, in life, that those are like the bell that bring me back to the of the present moment. So When you were talking about the pearls, I actually share this a little bit bizarre, but I have a little box of all of my baby teeth. And I've kept it. And I was talking about the Buddha's tooth.

[53:40]

I thought, well, why do I still have those? And then... What's going to happen to them when I'm no longer here? Like, who wants my baby teeth? Do I pass them one to each kid or something? Like, how many? I could. You could do that. They might really appreciate that. Yeah, or not. Or they also might think, what am I going to do with this? But I think there was, then I thought, well, what is that relic in my life? And so the symbol. offers the new teaching. So it's not just the tooth that I lost and grew up and not just the guns, but that and the memory of the moment, but also who I am now and who I think I'll be in the future. So I thought so thank you for offering that. So it goes backwards and forwards and the reminder that that these relics are not just

[54:43]

The idealized memory, but the teaching as it evolves with us. Thank you. Well, you know, from just. We're saying about baby teeth and I used to have some of those myself. The other thing that I haven't discussed to the single sandal is. There also was a I guess in the in the. 30s or 40s, you know, for people who could afford it, you would bronze baby shoes. And I have my father's bronzed baby shoe. And, you know, it's like, what does this mean to me? I don't think it necessarily means anything to me. It's like... It's a reminder of the whole passage of life. And that he was once this beautiful baby boy.

[55:48]

And now he's, you know, he's ashes. I, you know, I deposited his ashes in the Gulf Stream. So, yeah, we make we are meaning making mechanisms. And that's what we do. It's a wonderful thing. So I'm gonna take these, there's three more questions, hands that I see, and I'll take those, and then I think we'll have to end. Okay, thank you, Barbara. Ken, please go ahead. Okay, bye. Thank you. Wonderful to hear your talk. I was thinking that Koan of Alive or Dead always resonates with me, not always pleasantly, but it's the thought that came to me, not sure from where was, you know, is it that

[57:07]

we don't know, we can't know if someone is alive or dead in part because it's our moment, perception and experience of them and their relics and perhaps even a choice that we make in a way too, which reminded me of the thing that people say that in our memories, beautiful and kind of terrifying in terms of responsibility. And I just wondered what you thought of that. Ask me the question again. I'm not quite sure where the question is there. Is it that or could it be that we can't know if someone is alive or dead because it's in part our perception and perhaps our choice? around these relics and things that they have between the dust.

[58:13]

Well, so let me go to what, just a little piece of what Sojin said in his talk. He says, I want to say something about birth and death. I don't use the term life and death. I use life and death. Birth and death are two sides of the coin of life. Within birth there is death. Within death there is birth. It can't be just one way. So every moment is a moment of birth. Every moment is a moment of death. Death are two dynamics of life. Life itself is still. Life doesn't change. So this is throwing it back at you. Okay. I'll let you know what I figure out.

[59:14]

Okay. Nathan, please go ahead. Thank you. My question is, are there, are there bad pearls? You know, broadening, thinking about what, we pass on what we receive from other people. You know, I walk my daughter to school every day with the ghosts of my parents and my parents aren't even dead yet. You know, I have this terrible fear of being late in this sense. I don't really care if my daughter is late for school, but I march her up the hill with this sense of anxiety that, you know, it's terrible to be late. And I watch myself doing this with some sort of So how do we understand the things that we pass on or have received that maybe aren't gems?

[60:21]

I think that seems to me you're given to reckon with every morning. And someday, perhaps, you will let go of that anxiety. You know, these are things that you may think you have learned from your parents, but It's yours now. And so you have to, you know, it's good to work on that yourself however you can. Or to allow yourself to be enlightened by the Buddhas and let go of that anxiety.

[61:30]

But... your parents gave you is something for you to work on. So that's a gift. That's a gift from them to you, whether you like it or not. Thank you, Nathan. Ross, please go ahead for the last. Thank you. Good morning, Huzan. Morning. I really enjoyed the composite quality of your lecture today. You drew on a lot of different things. They kind of, one koan on top of another and a lot of stories. And I want to just pick out one piece, which was your comment around sometimes Sojin's expression wasn't coming from wisdom or wasn't so wise. And I'd like to know what you think about... In our practice, wisdom isn't thought of as something that's smart or right, but it's actually wisdom of emptiness.

[62:38]

And in your exchange with Nick around the fire that refines things and clarifies things, I'm wondering if we can look at Sojin's expression, which was maybe sometimes mistaken, was refined in the form of our dialogue. and looking at it and examining it. And it's a different way of looking at wisdom. Yeah, thank you. I mean, I think that that's akin to what Nathan and I were just talking about. And ultimately, I think that his teaching and Suzuki Roshi's teaching, Suzuki Roshi said, find out for yourself. And so, one has to make that decision, but I, but I deeply believe in the, in the dialogue process and just in, uh, and the, but that dialogue is often it's in words, but not necessarily in words.

[63:48]

Sometimes, you know, there, there, there were times when they were difficult. myself and Sojin that just weren't going to get worked out in words, but they got worked out in actions. Oh, let's go take a walk. That's also dialogical, I think. So it's just... It's returning, the dialogue is just a way of returning to the actual relationship. And the relationship is not, the relationship is beyond right and wrong. It is. And returning to silence, and you have to say something. Right. Yeah.

[64:49]

You may have to say something, but the other person doesn't have to accept it. That's true. then it's important for us to know that and accept that. There are things that I feel I have to say, but the other person is not obligated to agree or understand. Thank you. Thank you.

[65:22]

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