Okay, I'm looking to find Sojin Roshi. Right here. Oh, there you are. Okay, much better. Sojin Roshi. Wonderful to see you. So my topic is composure. It's something that I sometimes find sitting Zazen, I find composure, or composure finds me. So I'm interested in, though, maintaining some sort of composure off the cushion. And I came across, not always so, a little something that Suzuki Roshi wrote about calmness of mind. And I like this, it's short, I'll read it.

[01:02]

He says, first practice smoothly exhaling, then inhaling. Calmness of mind is beyond the end of your exhalation. If you exhale smoothly, without even trying to exhale, you are entering into the complete perfect calmness of your mind. You do not exist anymore. When you exhale this way, then naturally your inhalation will start from there. All that fresh blood bringing everything from outside will pervade your body. You are completely refreshed. I like that a lot. And I find it's true. I really enjoy the... The exhalation is my favorite part of breathing, exhalation, until the next part.

[02:04]

But I find when I'm off the cushion and something unsettles me, I don't go to my breath. I don't try to find my breath. I do something else. For example, just a minor thing that ruffled me a bit. I was in line at Trader Joe's outside to do some shopping, and everyone was moving forward as somebody got a car at the front, and there were these lines every six feet, and suddenly the line stopped, and the gentleman in front of me turned around and said, please maintain your six-foot distance, sir. And I was maybe a foot over the line. I didn't say anything. I backed up to my line. He turned around. But what I find helps me is my initial reaction was, what are you talking about?

[03:13]

We're just moving. I'm going to get to where I'm supposed to be. Don't worry. And then another wave of, well, the jerk. You know, talking to me like that. He was like 30 years younger. I'm an old guy. You know, come on, give me a break. And then almost immediately I said, don't say anything. But my composure was taken away for a little bit. And then I also, you know, forget about it. Forget about it, you know, and let it go, which I did. But I thought it was a good instance of how, for me, not becoming overly reactive sometimes is best just not say anything for a while. And then I can find my composure after a while. But please, your thoughts. Well, two things come to mind. One thing is that sometimes I'll say, I forgot my tape measure.

[04:20]

The other thing I do is say thank you and take a step back, and then I have my composure by letting go of myself. That's good. It is. I don't know that I'm that quick sometimes with a comeback like that. Anyway, just not to say anything is, I think, a good practice for me. As long as you don't think anything. Ah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, sometimes, though, I think it's hard not – the thoughts come or the reaction. And so I don't know that I cannot think anything. I mean, but – Yeah, I think first not to say anything, then not to think anything. When I'm not thinking anything, I'll know I've moved along.

[05:30]

That's good, though, I think. Well, best is not to defend yourself. Yeah. The first thing we think of is defending myself. I am not. What do you mean I am? Right. You're lost already. say, well, maybe he's right. Even though he's younger than me. No, that's true. And he was right. Technically. Technically, he's right. But for you to argue, that's how you lose your composure. Losing your composure means defending yourself. Ah. wow yeah i never thought of that that's really unnecessarily you had a good you have a good opportunity to forget yourself yeah yeah yeah it's like a gift in a way of course thank you for your gift that's why when somebody criticizes you you always say thank you very much and bow wow yeah

[06:45]

Oh, thank you so much, and it's great to see you. You too. Thank you. Ross, you're next. Okay, thank you. Sojan Roshi. Okay. The Paramita of Kishanti, which translates for us as patience, is a good practice to help maintain one's equanimity. And I've been thinking about patience, and also tolerance. And I'm wondering if you could say a little something about the difference between the two of patience and tolerance and how they inform one another and support each other. Well, I would say patience is the ability to be where you are. Tolerance is to accept that which bothers you.

[07:51]

That's the difference according to Sojin. Patience doesn't mean waiting for something. Right, so it's kind of a state of mind. Patience is the ability to be where you are. So this is, Zazen is the ultimate patience. and tolerance at the same time because you accept whatever it is that is presented to you moment by moment and at the same time you are just where you are It seems like patience is a place of, as you say, acceptance and stillness, a deep stillness. And then if something arises that irritates, then there's this intention to or desire to tolerate or bear with.

[09:07]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Right. To bear with. Yes. Tolerance. Just more like to bear with. That's helpful. Yeah. Thank you very much, Sojin Roshi. Susan Marvin, you're the next questioner. Please unmute yourself. Sojin Roshi. I can't see you. Are you on? Oh, I see you, I see you, I see you. Sojin Roshi, it's good to see you. Thank you. You know, our practice is not about giving up, it's about letting go. And I don't know, it seems like ever since the pandemic started, we've been watching you

[10:11]

Letting go, letting go, letting go. It's inspired us a lot. So I wonder if you have something to say about the difference between letting go and giving up. Well, when you let go, you give up. I don't. They do have separate meanings. Often when you read the commentaries on the sutras, the commentator will say, throw away. You know, throw away this, throw away that.

[11:12]

So instead of throwing away, everything you throw away goes someplace, right? So why throw something away? It might hit somebody. So letting go means simply walking away or not picking up. You know, it's really hard. to move around without picking up. In other words, don't let go of desire. Don't throw away desire. Don't cut off desire. The books always say, cut off desire. Cut it off with a root. Don't let the sprouts come up. But actually, desire is so important. You can't live without it. It means don't get caught by anything so letting go means don't pick up pick up pick up what's not harmful and letting go is instead of throwing away you simply let go that's that's awesome

[12:39]

just let go walk away don't pick it up but use it instead of letting it use you would you say that that's accepting things as it is yes accepting things as it is nothing lacking nothing extra that yes keep going things as they are, things as it is. You keep going. What else? When the guy in front of you says, you know, you're crowding on me in the line, you know, step back a foot. You simply let go and walk back a foot. And thank you, that's letting go.

[13:46]

It's called renunciation. It's an old, old, old term, renunciation. Laughing helps. What does? Laughing. Well, yeah, laughing. Thank goodness for laughing. Right. Yeah. So even if you don't feel like laughing, you can practice laughing. Well, yeah. You know, Thich Nhat Hanh used to talk about half smile. Yeah. And you mentioned humor. Humor means, we tend to think of humor as being funny, but there are the humors, which are, the humors are kind of like, settling into a good humor or a bodily humor, or we have humors all over our body and our mind.

[14:56]

And so when we don't let ourself get too upset, that's equanimity. And it's also, what was the question? I don't know, I forgot, but I think I'm always going to appreciate your good humor. Yes, that's it. I mean, that's what I enjoy probably most of all is laughing with you. It's not my good humor. Yes, you know, the ability to just let go of yourself and participate in what's going on. how you relate to things is by letting go of yourself. Then everything, not everything is your friend, that's to something else. But you're connecting with your surroundings and with whoever you're dealing with.

[16:03]

Just a little bit of good humor relaxes people and then you can flow with things. So I think- So that's a good way to forget the self? Yeah, that's it. You're not defending anything. Right. When you think about all the turmoil in the world, so much of it is just defending. Defense. Department of Defense. but the Department of Defense becomes the Department of Offense. So it's always a battle. So where's your Department of Defense and where's your Department of Offense? It's kind of a privileged place we're in though, isn't it? I mean, when we say there's nothing lacking and nothing extra and that,

[17:10]

That's an enlightenment. That's enlightenment. For so many people that's not true. That's right, because they're not, they don't realize their enlightenment. Or their situation is full of suffering. I mean, we have that now. See, it all boils down to self. It all boils down to ego. Self-centeredness. All the problems. The personal problems that we have are all self-centeredness. You just trace it to its source. Greed is self-centeredness. Ill will is self-centeredness. Delusion is big time ego. So renunciation, we know it's just basic Dharma.

[18:14]

Let go. All these questions are related to each other. Well, I didn't really have a question. Gary asked me if I would ask a question, but this is pretty good. Thank you for all the good reminders. Yeah. And thank you for your good humor. Yes. And I hope you have many more days. of good health. Thank you. When I was a kid, we used to, a good humor man used to come around selling ice cream. I remember that. Yes. Like five cents. Yeah, five cents. Thank you, Sojin Roshi. Okay. James Kenny, you're the next questioner. Please unmute yourself. Hello, can you hear me? Sure. Hi, Mel. How are you doing?

[19:20]

Okay. You know, we've been sitting together a long time, and I've asked you a lot of questions over those years. What is the question I should have asked you? You stumped me. Finally. Finally. Yeah, you finally got me. Yay. Thank you so much, sir. You're welcome. James, please mute yourself. And Jerry is the next questioner. Where are you?

[20:21]

I don't know. You tell me. Oh, there you are. So, Jen, I'm going to ask you about two situations. And not to be audacious, one has to do with the story about the Buddha and the other has to do with me. So there's a story in categories book, Returning to Silence, about the Buddha learning that a king from a neighboring province was going to come and invade his town and his area. And so the Buddha sat under a dead tree. And the king was coming, and Buddha just sat under the dead tree. And the king came upon him and said, why are you sitting under the dead tree? And the Buddha said, I feel cool even under the dead tree because it's growing near my native country.

[21:31]

So the king was very impressed. The king was very impressed with his peace and he was totally disarmed and turned around and went back. But then one of his counselors said, said to the king, you're crazy. The king from this other country insulted you. We have to get vengeance. We have to come back and conquer that territory. So the king came back and the Buddha was still sitting under the dead tree. But this time, the king just went right past the Buddha and conquered the country, conquered the province. Mm-hmm. So it seems to me it's like a 50-50 chance sitting under the tree, right? It's kind of like, well, I sit under the tree, the Buddha, you know, it's a win. I live, the country's saved. I sit under the tree, it's not saved.

[22:34]

So here we are, and it reminds me of a question I once asked you. a long time ago in Shosun. So I was in a kayak and the currents were coming and battering my boat and I was stuck. I was terrified and I didn't know what to do. And so I started off by just sitting under the dead tree, so to speak, and being really peaceful. But then I realized that I needed to paddle as fast as I could to get out of this crazy, the crazy seas. So do I just sit under the dead tree? Or is there a time to act right now living in crazy seas?

[23:41]

Yeah, you're always sitting under the tree. There's no such thing as not sitting under the tree for a Zen student. And the fact that you sat under the, the fact that you didn't know what to do, and you, and you sat, just sat under the tree, allowed you to escape, was the basis for your escape. So the sitting under the tree, Does not preclude acting. No. No sitting under the tree in all of our activity. If you're not doing that, you're not a Zen student. Sometimes we say, you know, just sit. So I think it's important, you know, for me, this,

[24:45]

This sitting has to involve sometimes discernment and skillful action that comes from that. You know, you're always at the base. As soon as you leave your seat, you're lost. You never leave your seat, no matter what you're doing. Zendo is always the place where you are, no matter where you are. So when you say, I don't know what to do, that's like the highest kind of wisdom. I must be really high then. Yeah. You did well. I don't know what to do. You did well. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. Then something comes up for you. Yeah. You allow all of your experience to come up. And help you.

[25:47]

That requires a lot of deep faith. Well, so. Yeah. So what's new? Nothing. And everything. And everything. Because every situation. feels new uh one more horror a day uh feels like uh one more one too many sitting under the tree you know this is also i don't want to go into it it's the bhagavad-gita yeah So the winds and the hurricanes under the dead tree and something and wait.

[26:58]

Yes. Well, we talked about waiting. What is waiting? Waiting is not to lose your composure. And to be able to say, I don't know. And then you open your mind. That's the key to opening your mind. I don't know. Which is the ultimate truth. Yes. And extremely humbling. Okay. Excuse me, Sojin Roshi, before the next questioner, I'm hearing somebody talking.

[27:59]

It may be Liz in the background. Yeah. Could you ask her to move to another room, perhaps? Liz? Close the door. Okay. Home practice. Thank you so much. Mitch Greer, please unmute yourself and ask a question of Sojan Roshi. Oh, my God. Sojan Roshi, I'm so grateful that I get to speak to you. You know, I don't have any big questions. I mean, this is the whole thing, just like preparing to talk to you is... just been so great for me. But the only thing I have to say is, like, I'm starting a painting practice, like, pretty seriously. And I wondered if there's anything you can share that you know about Zen and painting.

[29:05]

Well, before I was doing Zen, I was doing painting. Oh, you were? I did not know that. I did not know that. I think I read something in your bio about it, but I didn't do that much research. Yeah. So... Yeah, I was a painter for a good period of time. So your question is, do I have any advice? Not really, just like, is there a Zen to painting or is there nothing like the Zazen experience? Oh yes, there is a Zen to painting. When you are painting, that's your whole world. So you enter into the painting and the painting is a total experience.

[30:06]

That's the basis. It may take many forms. When I was doing painting, it was what they call non-objective painting. And so there was no precedent for what the painting was. You had to allow the colors and the shapes to harmonize. and the ways to allow them to harmonize is that it comes from your guts and from your head and from your heart, but the harmony comes from the guts. And you're kind of get an inspiration and follow the inspiration.

[31:21]

Don't be too critical. Have fun. Okay. Cool. Awesome. Thank you, Sojan. Thank you. I hope I said that right. Okay. Thank you so much. Okay. Raghav, would you please unmute yourself and ask Sojan Roshi a question? Hi. Hi. This might be a little bit long. Raghav, just one second. Mitch, could you please move? Oh, sorry. Thank you. Okay, Raghav, please continue. What I was thinking about, Surgeon, is I was trying to see if I can catch my own

[32:24]

tendencies and kind of keep an eye on it and you know I was curbing it from time to time and what I was noticing is that it didn't feel quite natural and what I wanted to ask is that it kind of appears that like you were saying earlier I just have to follow my desires, not to an extent that, I don't know how to say this.

[33:33]

So I have to follow my desires, but what I feel is I will only learn when I get burned. Meaning, so if I put my hand on the hot stuff, my hand is going to burn, and the next time I'm not going to do it. It seems to me like that would be the only way that I would really learn, you know, what to do and what not to do or something like that. Just like how maybe a child learns. We learn by getting hurt and then we maybe try not to do that again. So where I'm going is it appears that there's no, you know, off the cushion, for example, there is no specific way of being.

[34:43]

It's just interacting with whatever is going on right now. And if I get to help somebody, it's not necessarily because of me. And if I harm somebody, it's not necessarily because of me. Yeah, so, like, I feel like I cannot create or sculpt a way that I should be towards a certain outcome or something like that. Is that the end? Yes. I didn't understand what you said, but I kind of understand what you said. But I want to sum up a little bit. I didn't say that you should just follow all your desires.

[35:47]

I said that desire is necessary. But desire, in order to be satisfactory, has to follow a way that's wholesome. That's what I said, something like that. So it's not that you cut off desire. It's not that you cut off desire, but you use desire so that it doesn't use you. So when you talk about should I be watching all the time, you know, I would say, yeah. That's called practice. Practice is to always know what's going on with your desires. And, you know, in Buddhism, desires is

[36:51]

it's kind of, it's often looked down on because we put ourselves in control of our desires, or we put our desires in control of us. That's what that means. But you should be in control of your desires. So that's when desire... we have so many things, so many desires, right? And so one of the desires that are beneficial, one of the desires that are not beneficial. So when we turn ourselves over to the Dharma, desire becomes way-seeking mind. Because our desire is pointed in that direction, a practice. And it's called way-seeking mind. And so, And like in the Theravada school, the old Theravada school, you notice everything that happens.

[38:03]

You notice everything that you do. You don't say this is good necessarily or this is bad necessarily. And sometimes it gets to be a little too fussy. But at the same time, it's like now this is anger. Now this is anger. love now this is whatever it is so you're always noticing what what's going on in your body mind and it's not that hard now i have the baby now i'm feeding the baby and so you just it's just noting just noticing um it doesn't have to be um expanded but simply noticing so that's that's a very important practice and it's the same as us in just simply noticing so the curbing part that is so even if it is not

[39:22]

completely, even if it's not unawesome, say for example, I'm eating something and I feel the desire to eat some more, you know, even though my stomach is full. Yes. So curving that, would you say you curve according to what's needed for the moment and what's needed for the for the situation i would say greed is now arising in me yeah yeah so you just know that greed is now arising in me or anger is just arising in me right and as far as judgment goes the problem is that if you use judgment to notice, then you're creating a bias.

[40:24]

So you simply notice what's going on. This is arising, now arising in me. And so you get to know what's going on. And then you can make your judgments according to your knowledge. Then later you figure out, well, let's see, is it good to be greedy or not? You know it's not, so you don't have to say so. Oh, this is not good, you know, and I'm a bad boy, and never mind all that. This is now what is arising in me. And similarly with respect to, say I'm with somebody else, and I see them stating something wrong.

[41:27]

And I'm defining what's right and wrong. But I feel I really feel strongly that they're going down the wrong path. Yes. And I've done both. And again, I'm not sure if there's a right answer, but... Just allowing them to go down the wrong path feels bothersome for me. Right. So you don't want to do that. So a good friend always says something when you see your friend going down the wrong path, what you think is going down the wrong path. You say, I think you are going down the wrong path. I observe you, and I observe what's going on in you, and I can see that you are going down the wrong path.

[42:33]

And if somebody construes that as being whatever, that is whatever it is. Yes, there's two things. One is, this is what's happening, period. And the other is, judgmental not just mental but making a judgment because even though everything is just as it is there's still right and wrong thank you yeah Ron, please unmute yourself and ask Soji Roshi a question. Unmute. Okay, Soji Roshi, hello.

[43:43]

It's been a while since I've seen you. This is actually kind of related a little bit to how you answered Raghav. And also, when your consultation with Susan, I just wanted to mentioned the Department of the Interior to go along with the Department of Defense. They both could work together. So here's my question. In Vipassana practice or Theravadan practice, there is bear attention. And bear attention is what you were, I think, conveying to Raghav, is that you perceive or you are aware of what's in front of you, in your mind or physically, and you just are attentive to that without passing judgment on it, and without the word they use is proliferation, without proliferating into a story or a drama or all the rest of it that we do.

[44:47]

Okay. And in mindfulness practice, one commentary I read, this is the beginning of mindfulness practice, the first step in mindfulness practice. My question is, is that exactly what zazen is, or is there a difference? Well, it is, and there's a difference. So what's the difference? Because... Mindfulness, because Zazen is more than that. That is an aspect of Zazen. Okay. But Zazen is more than that. You know, Suzuki Roshi, actually in the Soto school, mindfulness is just, you know, in other Buddhist practices, I won't say what they are.

[45:55]

Mindfulness is the center. But in Zazen, mindfulness is an adjunct. It's one of the aspects that is present in Zazen. Mindfulness is one component that's present in Zazen. Posture is one aspect that's present in zazen. Mindfulness, you know, many other components is what creates zazen. So mindfulness is not the center of zazen. It's one of the components of zazen. Well, I'm not talking about... I'm not talking about mindfulness because mindfulness can be, no, the beginning of mindfulness, which is just pure attention, bare attention, and then mindfulness can continue and expand from there.

[47:09]

Okay. Well, what about it? Is that what Zazen is? Not completely. So what would be... Other than the bare attention of what's happening in your body or your mind? Settledness. Equanimity. But you would pay attention to it. You would know that was happening, right? Yeah. Mindfulness is apparent or is a central aspect of all Buddhist practices. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know what you're asking to tell you the truth. Well, it's pretty simple. When you talk about settledness, that's a result. That's a quality of your sitting practice which you would be aware of, which is bear attention. I'm not saying that there could be many conditions of your body and mind, but bear attention just is aware of making...

[48:24]

an effort to be aware of that. Yes. So bear attention, actually. You want to call it mild. We don't usually call it mindfulness, although you can call it mindfulness. Bear attention is at the center of satsang. Your voice just froze up at that critical moment. Could you repeat what you just said? Yeah, bear attention is at the center of Zasana. Okay. Just to be a little bit argumentative, what would be on the periphery? What would be what? What would be on the periphery? Nothing. Okay, that's what I was asking. Oh, yeah, every aspect of Zasana is at the center. All right. There's no periphery.

[49:25]

Okay. I think that's interesting. We'll pursue that later. Yeah, because Zazen covers the whole universe. There's no inside or outside. Yeah. To be continued. Okay. Thank you. The last questioner who signed up for this evening is Daniel. Could you please unmute yourself, Daniel, and ask Sojin Roshi a question? And Ron, could you please mute yourself? Hi, Sojin. Hi, Daniel. You gave me a a story, a koan that maybe I'll talk about right now, along with, well, there's the anecdotes that have been coming, like a memory story.

[50:38]

So one of those along with it. Like, so mountains are mountains. Then mountains are not mountains. And rivers are not mountains. rivers, and then mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers, but they're different. With a difference. There's a difference. With the difference. With the difference. They're the same, with the difference. Mountains are mountains, just like you ordinarily experience them. Of course, they are your experience. Then when you start to practice, when the maturity of your practice, everything comes apart. What you thought mountains were, no longer mountains.

[51:40]

What you thought rivers were, are no longer rivers. Then when you come to maturity, you realize that... Mountains are mountains, just mountains, and rivers are just rivers, but with a difference. Sort of return. And that connects to the anecdote, or I guess, don't have to frame it as that, but just about like, just, like, it's having a lens and then the lens sort of dissolving or something like that, but, oh, like, about sort of returning to not

[52:48]

putting a lens on something that can blind you to the simsara and nirvana that are present in the moment? Well, yes, taking the blinders off. to reality. I think you need a teacher, a good one, that you can be in contact with a lot.

[54:11]

Yeah. Yeah. That would be a big help. Thank you, Soji. No, it froze. Okay. Did you have something you wanted to add, Daniel, please? No, the internet just froze, I think. Oh. Okay, thank you. Thank you all for your questions. We have a few more minutes left. If anyone who is not on the list would like to ask Soji Naroshi a question, you can get my attention. By just waving your hands, I'm going to scroll through and see if there's any waving hands for a question. Nancy Sue, please unmute yourself and ask Soshin Roshi a question, and then Ben will be next.

[55:17]

Good evening, Soshin Roshi. My question is, I guess, on the more self-centered aspect of the plane of questions, but... I just noticed as I get closer and closer to thinking about the election and its aftermath, that I find that what's arising is this real sense of deep despair. And I notice it, and I can let it go, but it just keeps filling me up over and over again. I'd love to hear some words of encouragement or your astute perspectives of things, as well as how that possibly could, how hope fits in. Does hope also fit in? Yeah. Yeah.

[56:22]

We see the monster and hope. for the best. Yeah. It's gonna get worse. But it's always good to, you know, if you have like a good talks, by somebody that you trust and that you look up to and study their words. In other words, to keep in contact with not exactly optimism or pessimism, but with reality. If you study Suzuki Roshi's talks, read one every day. Just...

[57:25]

You know, just go through and read one every day. And so you're communing with somebody that has some wisdom. And that will actually help you. It really will help you. There's so many wonderful, you know, words of wisdom out there that are true and will help you. What's your perspective about hope? I mean, is that something that we should try to cultivate or? Well, you know, typically in Zen, we don't talk about hope. Right. But the reason we don't talk about hope is not that we don't think about hope. It's just that if you give yourself over to hope, then it's easy to stop actually practicing. because you depend on hope.

[58:27]

But it's fine to have hope. We should have hope. But it shouldn't interfere with our work at the moment. Because hope is in the future, I hope, you know, that's good. But we shouldn't depend on it. Yeah, it's important. It's an important aspect, but we shouldn't depend on it. So don't, just don't, Give yourself only over to hope. You have to do the work. Right. Thank you. You're welcome. Ben, before you ask your question, I just wanted to mention that rather than doing the wave thing, it actually will be easier for me if people raise their electronic hand, which is in your participant box at the lower part of the screen. They'll find you on my screen as a result of that. So just raise your electronic hand if you want to ask a question. Ben is next.

[59:31]

Please unmute yourself and ask Sergio Roshi a question. Ben, are you there? He is there, but he's not unmuted. He's right in the middle. Well, then you're speaking, but not on mine. Let's see. Ask him to unmute again. Could you unmute yourself, Ben? We'll come back to you. Joel, you have a question. Please ask it by unmuting yourself first. Good, you did. Hi. Sachin Roshi I wasn't this is so beautiful so many of the questions and your responses came to my struggles with politics and the construction in my house and

[60:52]

they both throw me off base for sure. And sometimes like a little thing like the, well, we say a little like the construction, like a more mundane thing throws me off sometimes more than, um, uh, you know, uh, uh, bigger thing. Uh, like, you know, cancer. Okay, fine. Okay. There it is. Um, might not have been true 30 years ago my but but the construction you know the thing is I was reading in she shins I think she should on Uchi and she said okay well the whole thing is being there really being there in this moment to being time and opening your eye and I thought that's great

[61:55]

that's so clear and so this is not formulating itself into much of a question but it just seemed that like with the thing with the construction like mundane things that get to me it sort of seems like not kind of respecting of It's a sort of stinky word, but the sacredness of every moment of being time in some way. Like, I don't want to be there at this moment because at this moment I'm thinking about something that is kind of in some way boring or I think it's unimportant or it's getting in the way of things I think are very important. So I don't know if there's a question in all that, but I just want this being there in... being time being time being time being there just being there and opening the eye was so evocative so you know anything you can say would be wonderful thank you yeah when

[63:23]

when we play music speed up I do a lot as you know what do you think I just said exactly that well yeah you're on my case man yeah you know I got back thinking that everything was cool and after a week delay and now it's going on another week and it's real frustrating. The first thing I saw when I got back on the piano was the box suite. And I said, yeah, it's, I, I can't wait to make music with you again, man. Yeah. Okay. Great. Thank you, Joel. If you would, if you would help Joel. Yes. Before Kabir asks the next question, I wanted to invite people who typically don't ask questions at Shosand who are here on the screen with us tonight, encouraging them to raise their electronic hand and ask a question.

[64:36]

Kabir, you're the next questioner, please. Thank you, Roz. Thank you. Can you hear me? I can hear you, but I can't see you. oh you see me now wave your hand no you must be on the next page yeah i'm no longer on the front page i took you off the front page now you're old that's right i don't see That's okay as long as you can hear me. Okay. I'll go back to the front page.

[65:45]

Kabir you can just wave your hand very demonstratively. Oh, that's you. Okay, just speak. It looks like he's frozen. Oh, there you are. That's me. Okay. I'm in a different room. I'm using a little office here. Hi. Hello. Hi. I got you. Hi. Okay. So, hi. There you are. Hi. My question originally was, if we're trying to stay away from a gaining mind, is it also true that we try to stay away from the getting rid of mind, right?

[66:50]

Yeah. Which brought me to the idea of finding a balance between attachment and letting go. And then tonight you mentioned renunciation. Yes. Which is an amazing thing, but it's kind of, anyways, it doesn't matter. So my question is, did Buddha taught renunciation so it can bring balance between attachment and letting go? Balance between what? Attachment and letting go. Oh, attachment and letting go. Balance between that. So was renunciation was a tool that is designed for that? Renunciation means letting go of self-centeredness. Letting go of self-centeredness. That's renunciation.

[67:52]

doesn't have much to do with taking all your furniture and throwing it in the lake or giving all your money away. It has to do with covering your ego. So the balance is between your true self and your ego. When you let go of your ego, your true self takes over. So it's like saying big self and small self, right? So it's not like you no longer have a working part. It's not that you don't have an ego, but the ego is more under control of your big self. So you're always referring to your big self rather than to your ego. What should I do to big self?

[68:58]

And that's the same with desire. Well, yes, desire is the balance between self-centered desire and big self-centered desire. So, you know, you're always asking your big self, what should I do? You also have to ask your small self, what should I do? So, ask Buddha what to do. Yeah. So is that then it comes to I'm sorry. So is that when we come to a place where we try not to gain and we try not to let go and just deal with that hand?

[70:04]

Well, yeah. Check in with the body and check in with the breath? You know, settle yourself on the breath. Always settle yourself on the breath. And that gives you access to big minds. When you're always asking, what do I want? What do I want? What do I want? That's referring to your ego as the center. So renunciation is to step off of self-centeredness or ego-centeredness and become centered in your Buddha mind. You switch from self-centeredness to Buddha-centeredness. Thank you. And for Jake or anybody who's interested, on May 1st, 1982, you gave a talk about composure.

[71:13]

And I cannot recommend that enough. And it's under the little jump drive that Hozon was, you know, you guys were selling soap. It's an amazing talk you gave on May 1st, 1982, about composure. And it started with a poem, where somebody wrote a poem, I get up, I take a shower, and I go to work, or something like that. And then the whole talk. Anyways, so, but I have another question, I'll save that for the next time. But for now, thank you so much. It's wonderful to see you, as always. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. And thank you, Ross. Thank you. Thank you, Kabir, indeed. Ben, you're back. Please unmute yourself and ask Sochim Roshi a question. Can you hear me? I can. I can see you and hear you. Sochim Roshi, I've heard you teach and speak about Yogacara before.

[72:17]

And Hosan obviously offered a class. not too long ago on that. But I recently was reading an essay that was looking at Nagarjuna's teachings, which I'm less familiar with. And I wanted to know if there's some small thing you can share of your understanding of Nagarjuna's teaching. I don't think I understand Nagarjuna's teaching. Me either. Well, thank you so much for your teaching, as always. I would say, though, in retrospect, I would say what I understand of Nagarjuna's teaching is just become Buddha-centered.

[73:22]

I've been thinking a little bit recently about practice life being, or life, life as practice, practice as life as sort of a realignment or sort of a changing of allegiances, sort of what you're saying, from self-centered to Buddha-centered. You could also say... all sentient being centered, could you not? I wouldn't. I would say one being centered. So, My self is still included, but it's just one among the many.

[74:31]

We're all, you know, there's one and there's many. There's only one being and there are many beings. That's Nagarjuna's teaching. We're all one being with many facets. called multiple beings. So stay with the one being and you will also be included. Thank you, Sochi Roshi. We have two more questioners to end the evening. The first one will be Nina. Nina, please unmute yourself and ask Sochi Roshi a question. Can you hear me now?

[75:37]

Yeah. Okay. Well, if I had waited long enough before raising my hand, I would have had my answer. That usually happens. But I will ask anyway. Sure. Because I don't usually do this. And I responded to Ross's encouragement. Okay. And to overcome my own reluctance to... Participate openly like this. So. Self-centeredness and self-care. Yes. I think you really addressed it. But perhaps you have a different. A slightly different take on that. Is it difficult to sometimes tell the difference? Or is it always clear? Well, it's not always clear. You know, when you fly in an airplane, they always give you this little talk first.

[76:45]

And they say, if we go down near the ocean or something, your little jacket comes down, right? And if you have children, you always put the oxygen on the child. On yourself first. Yeah. So that you can take care of the child. So which comes first, right? So you have to take care of yourself. Otherwise, it's really hard to take care of other people. So when is it confusing? When I actually can't. I'm not sure that I can think of when it's not clear. But you did say it's not always clear. Well, you know, nothing's always clear. You know, if we make definitive statements, we always get caught.

[77:48]

Yeah, yeah. Yes. Thank you so much. It's wonderful to see you. Great to see you too. Yeah. Thank you for your question. Heather, you have the last question for this evening. Please unmute yourself. Hi, Sojin Roshi. Hi. I have a question about help and helping. And it's based on an experience I had this week, but it's meant as a universal question. I have a friend who lives in a lot of pain. She is a single mother with a very demanding job and was already at a breaking point before COVID happened.

[78:50]

And now she seems to be worse off than I've ever seen her. And I recently did something that was an act of support and she's so beyond her capacity that even the act of support which was baking her a blackberry cobbler the act of coming to the door and receiving it was more than she could bear and And I know that people around her have fallen away because she's so irritated all the time. And I'm sitting in this question, I didn't take it personally, but I'm sitting in this moment of wanting to understand how to be in relationship with her when she is in this much pain and how to stay present and available

[80:01]

without adding more injury. So I'm sitting with a balance question. Is it mostly psychological pain or physical pain or what? Psychological, yes. Well, one thing that you could do is just be with her and let her do the talking. And just kind of hear her out. And the more of a neutral ear you are, the more she will be able to say something about or go deeper into her problems. And in a way, just be close and do nothing.

[81:09]

Yeah. Then she can't get mad at you. She can't. Oh. It's my dog. So that's what I would do. Even if she pushed you away. Again. She pushes you away? Okay. Don't insist. Don't insist. Because, you know, there's some people you can help and some people you can't. You have to know your own limitations. Offering yourself as an heir is the least you can do. And for her, maybe be the most. And... if she rejects you, you know, you can only do what you can do. Everything comes into being and goes out of being, you know. And whatever we can do in between is good, but we can't do everything.

[82:20]

Yeah. Thank you. Okay. I just saw another hand, so I'd like to call on Karen Dakotis, and this will be definitely the last question for this evening. Well, I'm open to that. Hi. Hi. Nice to see you. Yeah. I thought I signed up, but I don't think I got on the list, and then I had a question, and then I forgot it. So I thought I would just say hello. Okay. I know it's been a long evening and it's late. It's even later where I am. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Jeez, it's almost midnight here. No, just kidding. I have just enjoyed this evening so much. I feel a great weight lifted, like the pleasure of not knowing, the joy of not knowing.

[83:26]

And I just feel like I want to... I want to reflect back or give back all the love you keep pouring out to all of us and helping us. It's such great nourishment and food. Well, it also nourishes me. People say, don't you get tired of doing that? No, it's energizing. Yes. I liked what you said a couple of show sounds ago. Like it doesn't matter. I think you said it to Susan. It doesn't matter the question. You're just the listening, the teacher's teaching. So that's helped a lot. You know, it almost, I get that when I do some teaching, the question is not as important as the meeting.

[84:27]

Yes. Yes. Yes. And I'm so glad in this time that we can meet in this virtual, real reality. We say virtual reality, but it's reality. You're right there. Yes. You're right there. I am. I'm right here. I'm taking care of my teenage boy and his... difficulties and I want to get to Texas. My mom, who you met many years ago when I was getting married, when I thought I was getting married. She told me I didn't shave for the day. Yes, she was. She said you didn't shave and you looked at her and she said, what are you looking at? And you said, I'm just looking at how beautiful you are. Cause she had, so she's turning 90.

[85:29]

And she got out of assisted living because my family ran out of money. And she's living with my brother. And she's in a wheelchair. And I want to go see her because no one has hugged her for seven months. Oh, my God. And now she's with my family. So I want to go to Texas. But I don't want to go to Texas, if you know what I mean. Yes, I know. And I would love to come to see you too, but I'm so grateful that you do this. I just wanted to say hello and good night and thank you. Okay, it's a good finale.

[86:06]

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