Good evening. Excuse me for being late as I was caught up with the President's address. What did he say? Four more years. put a lot of money into the fat cat's pockets.

[01:04]

Somehow I have to get back into this. So I will start reading. As a matter of fact, since it's so short, I'm just going to read I'm going to start from the beginning. Bhikkhu Chitong, a native of Shao Chao of An Phong, had read the Lankavatara Sutra nearly a thousand times, but he could not understand the meaning of the Trikaya and the Four Prajnas. Thereupon, he called on the patriarch for an interpretation. Now, is there anyone here that did not get from last time, what the Trikaya is, you can say, you know, the three bodies of Buddha.

[02:42]

Yeah, I know, but I failed to grasp the significance of it. Oh, I see. I'm confused why they are there. Why they are there. If you just look at Shakyamuni Buddha as someone who embodies omniscient understanding, this omniscient understanding has to be understanding of something. So, what this person understands has to be backed up by, since there is no

[03:57]

since a person has no inherent existence, the knowledge or the wisdom has to come from someplace. So this personification, which is a person, who everyone agrees, or people who agree, is a Buddha, having this perfect understanding, It has to have some perfect understanding of something. It has to be a representation of something. So, Shakyamuni Buddha, as the nirmanakaya, has to be representing something. And what he's representing is something bigger than just the person. Small Buddha is representing Big Buddha. Small Buddha is a manifestation or representation or expression of Big Buddha, Big Mind.

[05:09]

So, dharmakaya is the source and nirmanakaya is the expression. So, if we just talk about Shakyamuni Buddha as Buddha and not see beyond the person, that's it doesn't work, then we kind of start idolizing a person as if they were God. So, when we speak of who Buddha is, Buddha is Buddha nature, and Buddha nature is Dharmakaya. So, when you And when we talk about Shakyamuni Buddha, what we're talking about as his teaching and expression is Buddha nature.

[06:14]

And the link between Dharmakaya, which is Buddha nature, and the person who is expression of Buddha, is Sambhogakaya. Sambhogakaya is the link between Dharmakaya, between the essence of life itself and its manifestation. So Sambhogakaya is Buddha's wisdom which is expressed through the Nirmanakaya. Buddha nature's wisdom, which is expressed through dharmakaya, through nirmanakaya, through the person. Does that make sense? No? Think about it some more. Yes? That's an awful lot like the trinity in Christianity.

[07:20]

It is. The concept of God and the Holy Spirit as the transmitter and Jesus as the word. It is like that. But it's not the same. But it is like that. That's right. It's very much like that same idea. So is there anyone who does not know what we mean by the Four Prajnas. You'll all understand what we mean by the Four Prajnas, what it means here by the Four Prajnas. Prajna arises in my mind means innate wisdom arises in my mind.

[08:52]

And then this is a breakdown of that statement. In other words, this is a subdivision. At that time, he really didn't know this. I don't know whether he knew it or not. I don't know what he knew. When to say that he didn't say, you know, we have to remember that what's expressed in that autobiography is expressed or said in order to express something. You understand what I mean? He's just come upon, he just discovered his Buddha nature. He just discovered that Prajna arises in his mind, right? When he's... I didn't even know it was Prajna. because he had this talk with a nun who explained it to him. The Sutra, the autobiography

[10:06]

has a certain purpose in what it's expressing. So when he says, Prajna, I find Prajna arises in my mind. How does he know that? Because it's his own innate wisdom. How did he know? He heard somebody talking about reciting the Diamond Sutra. That's how he knew to begin with. And the Diamond Sutra talks about Prajna. That's how he had his realization before he came. Understand? He had this realization before he came to the Fifth Patriarch. Because he heard this person, some people say it was a nun, some people say it was somebody else, reciting the Diamond Sutra. And so this is where he got the idea.

[11:15]

But to say prajna, we don't usually, when we talk about prajna, we don't always talk about the four wisdoms. We say prajna in a general sense. This is a very specific sense. So in that sense, it was in a general sense. This is a very specific sense, okay? I can't see you, so I don't know whether you're saying yes or no. Yes, yes. So he says, he could not understand the meaning of the trikaya, the three bodies, and the four prajnas. Thereupon he called on the patriarch for an interpretation. As to the three bodies, explained the patriarch, the pure dharmakaya is your essential nature. The perfect sambhogakaya is your wisdom, and the myriad nirmanakayas are your actions. So, the dharmakaya is like your latent wisdom or your latent potential.

[12:34]

It's called sometimes immaculate because it's undefiled. And sambhogakaya is like your awakened body. And nirmanakaya is like your transforming, transformation body. So if we just talk about Buddha as a transformation body, it doesn't cover enough. And if we just talk about Buddha's wisdom, that doesn't cover enough. And if we just talk about The potential, or the immaculate body, that's not enough. It takes all three. But it's only one body, really. It's just one body with three ways of speaking about it.

[13:35]

So don't take it so literally, Kuan-Lam. Kuan-Lam, don't take it literally, as if there were three separate things. They're not three separate things. They're one thing, but in order to explain, we divide it into three. It's like when you see these diagrams of your car, your car is one piece of machinery, but when you look at the diagram of all the little parts that are put together, it's all spread out. with tiny parts. So this is like spreading it out in these tiny parts and saying, this is the wisdom body, this is the transformation body, this is the immaculate body. But it's really all one body. It's all one vehicle. It's all one body.

[14:39]

But it's three ways of speaking about one thing. Three views of one thing. Yes? You said that the Sambhogakaya, the Nirmanakaya is the wisdom body? Nirmanakaya is the transformation body. And the Sambhogakaya is the wisdom body. That's what he's saying. Yeah, I know. I just thought that was going to be my question because I've got to assert you. I didn't say it otherwise. Could the Nirmanakaya be the action? Nirmanakaya is your actions, is the expression as a person. But person, personification means the person. The person who walks and talks and eats and drinks is the nirmanakaya, Buddha.

[15:47]

So if you only focus on the person, You miss what's motivating the person that is behind the larger So, is the Dharmakaya, which is the same as what is often referred to as the Cosmic Buddha? Cosmic Buddha? Yeah. Cosmic Buddha is a symbol of Dharmakaya.

[16:55]

I can't hear you because of the airplane. Then when we get into all those images like in the Atatapsaka Sutra where you're getting, you know, all these realms and realms and realms of Buddha, is that an expression of the same? Yeah, they're all an expression of Vairochana Buddha. When you read certain sutras that talk about thousands of uncountable Buddhas with various names and qualities and so forth, these are all manifestations of Bhairavacana Buddha, of Buddha nature. This kind of cosmology is Buddhist playfulness.

[18:00]

are psychology and buddhology, you know, intermixed. And each of these buddhas represents some buddha field, you know, or some cosmic quality. And they all have names which denote a certain quality. So, this is to show that Buddha is not just one thing. that there's not just one Buddha. We're always talking about the uncountable Buddhas of the past. So all the Buddhas of the past, which are uncountable, and each one has a different name, is an expression of Vairochana Buddha, which is symbolic of no special shape or form. which is ultimate reality.

[19:05]

So even though there's this picture of Bhairavachana Buddha sitting there, that's just an idea. There's no little Buddha in the sky like that. I know you know that. Is Bhairavachana synonymous with the Dharmakaya? Yes, Bhairavachana is synonymous with Dharmakaya. Yes. And so all these Buddha fields and these different images are just different ways of saying everything is Buddha nature. Yes. And so you, it's like the hundred thousand million kalpas. You think of anything you can, it's almost like a child's game. Anything you can think of, yeah, that's Buddha too. Right. But the purpose of naming all these Buddhas is to express the qualities, the wonderful qualities of Buddha nature as personified by these cosmic Buddhas.

[20:16]

tirelessly working for the benefit of all sentient beings. So Sambhogakaya is also called Reward Body or Joyful Body. So, reward body and joyful body, I would say in our Zen terminology, would be ji ju yu za mai, self-joyous samadhi, which is what zazen is. Ji ju yu samadhi. self-fulfilling or self-joyous. Because it's self-fulfilling, it's self-joyous.

[21:27]

Sometimes it's translated as self-joyous, sometimes it's translated as self-fulfilling. So this is a product of prajna. expression, prajna. That's what he calls it. Sambhogakaya is your wisdom body. It's your samadhi body. It's your body which is intuitively fulfilled. because there's no gap. So then he says, if you deal with these three bodies, apart from the essence of mind, there would be bodies without wisdom.

[22:45]

If you realize that these three bodies have no positive essence of their own, because they are only the properties of the essence of mind, you attain the bodhi, which is the enlightenment of the four prajnas. So he's saying the three bodies, apart from the essence of mind, would be bodies without wisdom. In other words, the three bodies have to have the property of wisdom. And then he explains why. And what he says is that when the eight levels of consciousness are present, which they are, we call them consciousness.

[23:51]

We call it consciousness. And when the eight levels of consciousness are transformed, they're called wisdom. So eight consciousnesses, when they're transformed, are called four wisdoms, the four prajnas. So that's what he's saying, the bodies, the three bodies, apart from the essence of mind, would be bodies without wisdom, would be, but they're not, because they have no essence of their own, because they're only the properties of the essence of mind. So listen to this stanza, if you don't understand what I'm saying. Listen to my stanza. The three bodies are inherent in our essence of mind. So he keeps, essence of mind is his constant refrain, right?

[24:56]

Which we might interpret as Buddha nature. By development of which, the four prajnas are manifested. By development, I think he means the transformation. Thus, without shutting your eyes and ears to keep away from the external world, you may reach Buddhahood directly. Now that I have made this plan to you, believe it firmly and you will be free from delusions forever. I don't know if this is the correct translation or not. Follow not those who seek enlightenment from without. These people talk about Bodhi all the time, but they never find it, and he keeps saying this over and over. Well, then, may I know something about the Four Prajnas? Tell me what you're talking about when you talk about the Four Prajnas, asked Chittung. If you understand the Three Bodies, replied the patriarch, you should understand the Four Prajnas as well.

[26:00]

So your question is quite unnecessary. If you deal with the four prajnas apart from the three bodies, there would be prajnas without bodies, in which case they would not be prajnas. The patriarch then uttered another stanza. The mirror-like wisdom, which is the first of the four wisdoms, right? He's talking about the four prajnas. When we say prajna, we mean wisdom. Sometimes he interchanges it. The mirror-like prajna is pure by nature. The equality wisdom frees the mind from all impediments. The all-discerning prajna sees things intuitively without going through the process of reasoning. And the all-performing prajna has the same characteristics as the mirror-like wisdom. And then he talks about the eight levels of consciousness, but he talks about them as vijnanas. Vijnana means consciousness.

[27:01]

The first five vijnanas, or consciousnesses, are dependent relatively upon the five sense organs. We talked about that. Is there anybody who doesn't understand that? And the alaya vijnana, the storehouse of universal or universal consciousness, are transmuted to prajna in the Buddha stage. In other words, The Buddha stage means enlightenment. So the five sense organs, those are the first five consciousnesses, senses of consciousness, and the eighth consciousness, which is the storehouse or universal consciousness, are transmuted into wisdom in the Buddha stage. Well, the seventh level of consciousness, the soiled mind consciousness, or the corrupted ego-centered mind consciousness, self-consciousness, and the mano vijnana, which is thinking consciousness, that's six and seven, seven and six, are transmuted in the bodhisattva stage.

[28:27]

That may or may not be important. The main thing to remember is that when one becomes enlightened, what we call the eight conscious states become the four wisdoms. So instead of talking about consciousness, we talk about wisdom. That's what he's saying. So these so-called transmutations of consciousness, or vijnana, are only changes in appellations, not a change of substance. So the consciousness is still there as consciousness. It changes its form or something, but it becomes wisdom consciousness rather than mundane consciousness or ordinary consciousness. is non-dualistic consciousness, realization of non-duality.

[29:34]

So when you are able to free yourself entirely from attachment to sense objects, at the time these so-called transmutations take place, you will forever abide in the repeatedly arising Naga Samadhi, the Dragon Samadhi. In other words, if you let go of attachments, which he's always saying, attachments to sense objects, when this is taking place, you will forever abide in the repeatedly arising Naga, or Dragon Samadhi, or you might say Jijuyu Samadhi. Upon hearing this, Han Chi Tong realized suddenly the prajna of his essence of mind, the inherent wisdom of his essence of mind, and submitted the following stanza to the Patriarch. Intrinsically, the three bodies are within our essence of mind, not something outside.

[30:48]

When our mind is enlightened, the four prajnas will appear in our mind, as our mind. Not in our mind, but as our mind. When bodies and prajnas, when bodies and wisdoms absolutely identify with each other, we shall be able to respond in accordance with their temperaments and dispositions to the appeals of all beings, no matter what form they assume. In other words, we'll know how to relate to everything. and to everybody, no matter what form they're in. We won't have this problem of not knowing how to relate. To start by seeking for the trikaya, the three bodies, and the four wisdoms, is to take an entirely wrong course. For being inherent in us, they are to be realized and not to be sought. You can't try to get them even though you realize them. to try to grasp or confine them is to go against their intrinsic nature.

[31:56]

Through you, sir, I am now able to grasp the profundity of their meaning And henceforth I may discard forever their false and arbitrary names." And he has a note here which says, having grasped the spirit of a doctrine, one may dispense with the names used therein, since all names are makeshifts only. So that's very true. And we should be careful not to get hung up on the words or the concepts, but to try to see what they're talking about. Because the words actually are makeshifts. And the concepts are models. They're just models. And this is the model that these former ancestors came up with.

[33:19]

And it's a very well thought out and perceptive model. Could you talk some more about, I was struck by this, these so-called transmutations of vijnana are only changes of appellations, not a change of subject. I mean, it's just a change in name, but it seems like it's got to be more than that. You see, it's just words that are pointing to something. So consciousness is awareness, right? So we have the five awarenesses through the doorways of perception. Eyes, ears, nose, tongue, touch, and thinking is actually a doorway of perception as well. But thinking is more, that's the sixth consciousness. And the seventh consciousness is ego consciousness, the consciousness where, I would like to say, where, you know, the sixth consciousness function is, I mean, the seventh consciousness's function is to be a messenger from the ego.

[34:41]

universal consciousness, or the repository consciousness, to the thinking consciousness, which is the sixth. So it sends messages back and forth. But what happens is, because it's in that central position of sending messages back and forth, it thinks that it has all the answers, all the information, and it belongs to me. So the seventh consciousness starts building a sense of separateness, separate self, and starts believing in its own construction. And we call this the false or defiled consciousness, because it's based on misconception. It's thinking consciousness which is based on a misconception of its true nature. So it's like, I like to think of it as the office boy who is supposed to be the messenger.

[35:54]

And he takes the messages and thinks they're his own. And when the boss is out, he sits in his seat and puts his feet on the desk and lights up his cigars takes the place of the boss. That's what we do. Our ego takes the place of the boss. Partly because when we start growing up, before we grow up, the ego consciousness is not developed. So even though the baby says, I want, and so forth, the sense of ego is not developing. And there's not much separation between the baby and the world. But as we grow up, we feel our sense of separateness and our demands through the various consciousnesses.

[36:58]

And then we start building our dreams. And we start building our life on our dreams. And then we start protecting ourself. And then we build, we say, well, what am I going to be and who am I? And then we start building a persona. But at some point in building the persona, we get cut off because we get caught up in the persona building. And we get cut off from our surroundings, so to speak. In other words, we build a false self. And then, it's very hard to, we start working under a delusion. And we start discriminating and seeing things through the eyes of partiality.

[38:07]

And then we become attached to sense objects and things and ideas and so forth. And we become totally caught by this seventh consciousness. You know, he says, wisdom arises in our mind, then we're able to meet everyone in a real way, because we no longer are saying things partially or through our own sense of attachments and prejudices and sense of self that we've built up. We no longer have that kind of self. The ego is back to its normal, or the seventh consciousness is back to its normal function, which is just sending messages and getting out of the way.

[39:10]

So, we let big mind motivate us instead of small mind. Is that the transmutation? That's the transmutation. The change of relationship? Yeah, well, the change of what? The relationship with these consciousnesses, in a sense? Well, see, consciousness is still consciousness. Consciousness is awareness, right? Well, was it vijnanas? Yeah, vijnanas. Vijnana is vijnana. Vijnana is consciousness. But it's no longer controlled Our consciousness is no longer ruled by ego. It's ruled by wisdom. So consciousness is informed by wisdom and informs wisdom, rather than the seventh consciousness, ego consciousness, informing consciousness and being informed by consciousness.

[40:15]

So that's what it means, that that's the transformation that takes place. So what this is, is a kind of little model of how enlightenment works. That's what it is. It's a model of how enlightenment works, and how wisdom arises through consciousness, and that you don't have to stop what you're doing. You don't have to cut off the world to be enlightened. You are enlightened through consciousness, but through the transformation of consciousness into wisdom. And that's a model for enlightenment. Yes. You said the reason we practice with our eyes open. Yes. Because there's no inside or outside. We take the backward step, but that doesn't mean go inside, because there is only inside.

[41:19]

Inside and outside are just relative terms. Well, skillful means is, you could say so, I suppose. Skillful means, I always think of it as how one deals with others. I would say deflating the ego and giving it its rightful function is a product of enlightenment. I guess what prompted the talk was that you placed so much emphasis on awareness and mindfulness.

[42:30]

That's where that came from. Right. Awareness and mindfulness. I wouldn't say that was skillful means. I would just say that's practice. Skillful means, I think, is more like Avalokiteshvara's way of dealing with the world. so that you know how to do something without, or you know how to deal with someone by doing some transformation, or, you know, guiding people without them even knowing that that's what's happening. Skillful, you know. Like, you have to say something to a kid so as not to motivate them, so as not to insult them at the same time. You're very skillful to be able to say just the right thing at the right time in a way that makes them want to do something rather than puts them off.

[43:38]

Parents, I have to deal with. In a similar, parallel way, where the center of consciousness creates a problem is when it hijacks the whole show. In a similar way, discrimination or discriminating awareness Yes, but I just want to talk about attachment.

[44:46]

You know, I've got this, when you're talking about attachment, attachment is, when we're putting our story behind something, and grasping something, that's attachment. Our discrimination is when we're choosing on the basis of self-centeredness. I guess that's my question. But choosing is no longer called discrimination. when it's transformed into the all-discerning wisdom. The all-discerning wisdom sees everything in a discriminating way, without discriminating.

[45:50]

Yes. Right. So it's that shift between discriminating It's like knowing how to choose between things without being self-centered. That's why if you use self-centeredness as a touchstone, that's the basis of all delusions. Self-centeredness is the basis of all delusions, and it's the basis of discrimination, And that's why, you know, the fundamental thing about Buddhist understanding is that there's no self to be centered on, but we're constantly centering.

[47:04]

And the self that we're centering on is the ego self instead of the consciousness self. Discrimination. Right, there's always choice. We're continually discriminating, but it's discrimination of non-discrimination. In other words, it's discrimination which is not based on self-centeredness. That's the difference. Well, not only choice, but just seeing that there are differences. Yeah, right, that's the wisdom, that's the great round mirror wisdom, which just sees everything as it is, which is what the alaya vijnana is transformed into. Then there's the great equality wisdom, which is what ego, the seventh consciousness, is transformed into. It sees everything equally, instead of discriminating In other words, the wisdom of equality sees that there's no self.

[48:09]

Everything is myself is the wisdom of equality. It doesn't mean that there's no difference between wood and metal. But wood and metal are, in the eyes of non-discrimination, wood and metal are equal and separate. And seeing that separateness as it is, and appreciating the qualities of each separate thing, is the discerning wisdom. That's the all-discerning wisdom. Right, which is when thought consciousness is transformed, it becomes the all-discerning wisdom. See, thought consciousness discriminates between the realms of sense. That's its function, to think and to discriminate between the five realms of input.

[49:20]

And so it becomes transformed into the wisdom which is discriminating on the basis of non-discrimination. It's seeing the differences between things without judgment, without self-centeredness. And then the all-performing wisdom appears as the first five sense consciousnesses. That's the wisdom of action in the world. None of these are based on self-centeredness. That's why they're called wisdom, instead of consciousnesses. That's why it's a change in appellation, not a change in substance. Because it's still consciousness. but it's called something else. It's called wisdom instead of consciousness.

[50:23]

When choices are made with wisdom and non-attachment, would it follow that there can be no wrong choices? Well, theoretically, Yes, if that is adhered to perfectly. But even an enlightened person can make wrong choices. And what are the consequences of wrong choices for an enlightened person? Well, the higher you go, the harder you fall. So a person who has a high level of awareness, but if a person does not have ego consciousness, I mean, if his ego consciousness is normal, so to speak, Buddha speaks of the norm.

[51:49]

I've never heard Buddha speak, well he does speak of enlightenment, but he speaks of enlightenment as the norm. That means The ego is normal. It's not inflated. It's not askew. It's not, you know, deluded. So, what we're seeking, or what we want to express, is not something super-normal, just being normal. What is norm? What's the norm? Not what we think is the norm, but what is the true norm? Which is being one with reality, without delusions. I don't understand. Is it because the implications are vast when choices are made at a blank level? No, it's just that because people trust a person

[52:52]

And when the ego slips in there, then it has consequences. So the seventh consciousness from Big Mind to the Six Consciousnesses? Well, it's a Laya Vijnana. I'm not sure exactly what its function is, but it apparently conveys messages between the Storehouse Consciousness and Thinking Consciousness, which is the Sixth Discriminating Consciousness. Storhouse itself is not Big Mind.

[54:03]

No, Storhouse itself is not Big Mind. Well spoken. Nine letters of Consciousness. Right. See, right, this Amala vision, which, you know, there are different theories, different models, right, and the Eight Consciousness Model is school added a ninth consciousness, which means, which is more or less like when the eighth consciousness, the Kalaya Vijnana, is transformed into the great round mirror wisdom, then it's the Amala consciousness, which is just which reflects things as totally as they are without any kind of interpretation.

[55:04]

It just sees everything very clearly. It's like Occam's razor, maybe. But maybe that's not a good analogy. It's just like two mirrors reflecting each other. Can you characterize the storehouse a little more? Well, there are various theories about the storehouse consciousness. But basically, Vasubandhu says it's like a rushing torrent, continuously rushing torrent. And it is the consciousness which It's called the repository consciousness. It has different names, depending on how you want to describe it. The repository of every action or every thought that we've had is deposited in the bank as a seed.

[56:13]

And so it's sometimes called the bija consciousness. Bijas are seeds. And when these seeds are watered, and they have the right conditions, then they sprout. That's just a kind of convenient way of looking at it, agriculturally. Agricultural model. But it means that it's like habit energy. Since everything is stored, when the right conditions act on that consciousness, then it sends an impulse to the mind, an impulse to the body. And we start acting out old stuff. It's karmic consciousness. It's actually the foundation for karma.

[57:20]

And some people say that when we die, this karma consciousness seed repository continues. And the seventh consciousness, which is ego consciousness, continues. The others fall away. That's left behind. So that's why they say when there's a rebirth, The rebirth is accompanied by the seed consciousness, the allied consciousness, which is more like the foundation of the next personality. What about the Russian twat? Well, it's continually in operation. As I said, I would like to study with you the 30 stanzas of Vasubandhu, in which he describes all this, and it will become much more clear, more in-depth, a very interesting way of looking at it.

[58:39]

way it's described. It's a repository of action at some point. The unconscious. Jung was very interested in this. He kind of equated it with collective unconscious, which it's not. But he saw some parallels. And he was very interested in it. As a matter of fact, I think this is what he was reading when he died. Studying when he died, yes. Rebecca, did you have something? Oh, OK. Because you keep looking at me with a question. What's going on? Isn't there a danger in abandoning ship to Hawaii with a servant? Abandoning the ego? Yes. Uh-huh. Right. A danger, yes. So you can't abandon it. I have to tell you that.

[59:45]

Don't worry. It's not something that we have to worry about. You can't really abandon it. Because then you don't have anything, right? You're just adrift. You abandon ego, and you're adrift. Usually something happens, like something hits you over the head, and you're, oh, now I see who I really am. What I mean is, people, taking that literal way of saying, this feeling is not mine, this feeling is not me. Well, that's a kind of false way of saying, of understanding, this is not me.

[60:46]

It's not taking responsibility. Not taking responsibility is not the same as saying, this is not me. It's not a way of abdicating responsibility. It's a way of looking at what's there besides ego. So, one should do that. If one is going to start questioning the self, there's a way of letting go of the self by analysis. So, if you study Abhidhamma, you study how to analyze the self away. You analyze everything and you say, well, this is not me, that's not me, this is not me, until you analyze everything away and you realize that all this is, what is you is not you, right?

[61:57]

But at the same time, you have to understand that all this that is not you is you. If you don't understand that, then you just analyze everything away until there's nothing. But everything that is not you is you. So we come at it, there are two different ways to come at it. One is the way of analyzing everything away until you come to nothing. Or to synthesize it all and just realize that everything, all these things that are not me, are what make me what I am. This is, if you've ever listened to Thich Nhat Hanh, he says, which is not, it's a stereotype Mahayana. In order for this me to be here, there has to be the sunshine, the clouds, and the rain, and the forests,

[63:03]

He goes through the whole litany. He talks about table, about all the things that are this table. In order for this table to be here, there has to be the tree. In order for the tree to be there, there has to be the sunshine, and the water, and the earth. And all these things that are not the tree is what are the tree. That's the synthetical, analytical way. So you can understand yourself through either way. So instead of abandoning your ego, you should look and see that everything is yourself. Then you can just let go of it because you're safe. You do that kind of analysis about where the water comes from.

[64:27]

Then you turn the knob and it comes up. And you work back and you find out where everything comes from. You learn a lot. Well yeah, ecology is very much on the same track. Deep ecology. the ego that apparently, obviously, we all know has to be pretty sturdy in order to... So in Buddhism there isn't any such notion of healthy or weak or erotic. Right. Because the Buddhist term ego is not the same as the psychological term ego.

[65:30]

So when Buddhists talk about ego, they're talking about no self. When Buddhists say no ego, it means there's no substantial inherent self. When psychologists talk about ego, they talk about the sense of self that we have and to make it healthy and so forth. So they're really talking about two different things. That's why Buddhists don't address the psychologist's ego, because Buddhism arose long before modern psychology. Sometimes psychologists address Buddhism, but modern Buddhists also talk about ego in various ways, because they're hip to modern psychology. So in modern Buddhism, we do talk about a healthy ego. because we include psychological ego as well as real ego.

[66:32]

Psychological ego is dealt with in psychology to help people to lead a normal life. Buddhism also is oriented toward people having a healthy sense of self according to who they are. But the way they talk about it is not the same. So it seems like Buddhists aren't interested in psychological ego. But Buddhists go beyond psychological ego. And when Buddhists talk about ego, they're talking about true self. In other words, when they talk about ego, they're talking about something which is a false self.

[67:35]

So they're not exactly always on the same track, and sometimes they meet, and they're on the same track. So you have to know the difference. Yes. My short experience of... You have to speak a lot louder. My very short experience of Buddhahood. I don't know about the whole difficult time. I just... myself... I'm just... Please tell me that I'm doing the right process because... I'm... Just for me, just reading and doing and so on. that just after I read, I just maybe gain some knowledge, but I don't feel that I'm just doing it.

[68:41]

So I'm just trying to look at myself a lot and trying to do that process. I feel that I'm holding too much insight for Consciousness and mind and everything. I feel that my blood vein seems very shaking too. Is that why? What was that last part? All skin and the blood vein? Yeah. It seems very shaking. I don't know. Shaking? Yes. Too much holding back and everything. I don't know. I think what you should do is have an interview with one of the practice leaders here and talk about this stuff. I highly recommend that you do that. And we have a list of them.

[69:42]

I think you would benefit by that. You can have an in-depth talk about all these things with one of the practice leaders or myself. Well, that was our last class. This is a very difficult subject. It's kind of abstract, and it presupposes that you know something. Is there any chance of more classes to finish the book? Well, the thing is that I was just going Well, next year, I do plan to do more in classes.

[70:48]

It could be this, but it could also be other subjects, which would be just as interesting. Because I'd like to touch various things. I would like to do the 30 stanzas of Vastu Bandhu, which would take this a step further and be more in depth and present things, which I can't exactly present to you without the 30 stanzas. Yeah, well, uh, okay. Well, thank you for your attentiveness, attendance.

[71:43]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ