Get closer. This is okay. Yeah, all right. 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

[01:04]

And welcome. Is there anyone here who's here for the first time? My name is Peter Overton. I'd like to share a few words with you. I'd like to talk a little bit about some of the difficulties we have when we study koan literature. Koan literature are the various collections of stories, very brief but meaningful. interactions between monks.

[02:08]

And most of this literature was collected in the Tang Dynasty in China, as well as other places in Toms. Our particular school of Zen Buddhism does not emphasize... Thank you. Our school of Zen Buddhism, the Soto School, does not emphasize engagement with koans, but places primary emphasis on Zazen. However, teachers in our lineage have frequently cited these stories as moments of profound realization of the Dharma.

[03:12]

I myself find them a source of encouragement to open to the next moment. This has led me to questions about how we construct our world. I'm just going to read a few lines of this encounter that I wanted to talk about today. It involves a teaching of design, who is almost a mythical figure in the well-known, as there are many well-known masters. The story I would like to refer to appears in case 20 of the Book of Serenity, known as Dizong's Nearness.

[04:18]

It goes like this. Dizong asked Thayen, where are you going? Thayad replied, around on pilgrimage. And this is fairly common for monks to travel between monasteries. And so there is recognition of this coming and going. Thayad said, what is the purpose of pilgrimage? And Fa-Yen said, I don't know. Zang said, not knowing is dearest. I say, dearest to what? In fact, I've been studying a book created by Thich Nhat Hanh

[05:36]

translates and comments on the certain festivals of the Garajna. And he goes on at length about emptiness. And he says, emptiness of what? I'm sort of curious about this word, what? Seems like it covers a lot of ground. So how do we encounter this what? When you come face to face with the story, you may encounter a blank wall or an actual wall, if you're sitting in the Zen down here.

[06:47]

You may feel stuck. And often these koans are stories about people feeling stuck. or feel uncertain about how to enter relationship with this wall. When we're stuck, we don't know how to create relationships so that there can be give and take. And so one of the things we realize is that it's the co-creation of this world.

[08:06]

So how do we know if anything particular is a thing? Does it exist? closely related to the process of sense perception. Where there are objects, there's perceptions or engagement in consciousness. And we all try to reify our story around which we organize our perceptions and reactions to various stimuli in our environment.

[09:19]

So how do we know a thing is a thing? That it's the outcome of a process which we are all involved in. We are all involved in creating this world for good or for bad. We have our own individual play in this creation and we have a collective participation in this world. So when you're stuck, you simply have to be open to the universe of possible choices to engage the impossible.

[10:41]

I recently had an experience of illness, which I seem to point in this direction. One afternoon, my wife and I were out to getting ready to go on a bike ride. The next thing I knew, here's what I remember. I remember calling 911. The next thing I remember was was struggling with four or five, what I considered to be, I thought was emergency room staff.

[11:59]

And I just wanted to get out. And they were holding me down. And I kept telling them they were incompetent. But they didn't seem to affect anything. And it was so clear that this was real. But it wasn't, but it was so much of the input was from my end of a delusionary mind that there wasn't much room for dialogue about what was really going on. Afterwards, I broke up in the hospital bed and I imagine

[13:04]

and somebody gave me a shot, which put me out of my misery. And in fact, apart from me, you know, gosh, it wasn't though people are people I was struggling with probably saved my life. So taking into account these various kinds of experiences we have, how do we know what's real?

[14:11]

We only have to sort of, all we can do is to do our best to communicate as far as some way in accordance with the truth. So I was starting to think about this, not knowing. not know is most intimate. And there's a comment in the commentary on the koan by Nansen. I believe there's Nansen and the cat. But anyway, he says, well, D. Zhang says, not knowing is most intimate.

[15:18]

And he points out a very powerful statement like that. In some ways, it's stuck in our minds. And he says, we just go over to that. It's not about knowing or not knowing. This is a little bit like discussions of form and emptiness uh in which uh two things are presented as being different but uh the signal goes on about the uh You can't have this without this. And it's so profound a reality that it's almost impossible to grasp the fact that we have a right hand and a left hand.

[16:34]

So I started thinking about not knowing. I thought about some of the characteristics in a way which might allow us to kind of move the situation even in some sort of minuscule way to alleviate the start. And I made a list of these things. And then I stopped because of all of the qualities that I intended to share. I started with the letter C. The first is clarity. How does solo practice as a deep, intentional, and ongoing activity

[17:46]

Clarity about your intention going forward. Then there's curiosity. A neutral, straightforward inquiry, not grasping. Kind of trying to come into relationship with what you find around you, whether they're people, there's a job to do, there's just this sort of like, what is it, again, what is it? And there's a curiosity also has a, an aspect of playfulness.

[18:52]

Just to see what's happening. Courage. Finding the way through difficult, Find it the way through difficult times and stay true to your heart. That's the meaning of the word courage. So that's the way. It looks pretty hopeless. And do you find inspiration to move on? Conversation. Engaging in dialogue and assuring certainty, emphasizing connection.

[20:05]

Conversation is a term we use a lot. And to be in conversation with that which you don't understand. is dependent on your curiosity and your courage. And emphasizing connection has to do with prioritizing the connection between you, say, somebody else as a way to find out what could happen. Here's a sort of odd word, completion.

[21:21]

We don't tend to think practice is a completion of anything. But it needs a sense of completion to take the next step. and coordination. I'm not going to say much about that, but the what I was talking about comes up in another case in the same book. It's called Desire and Planting the Fields.

[22:25]

Yizhang asked, Shrishan, where do you come from? Here again is coming and going. These are actual events which transforms. Where do you come from? Shrishan said, from the South. Zizang said, how is Buddhism in the South these days? He's asking a provocative question. It's well known that there was some question about whether or not the true Dharma is manifested by people in the North, people in the South. Zvishang said, there's extensive discussion.

[23:39]

Yeah, there's extensive discussion. And so, uh-oh. Here's a little challenge. Zvishang said, how can that compare to be here planting the fields and making rice to eat. And Shri Sang says, what can you do about the world? What can you, what can you actually What can you act, how can you act in the world that actually matters?

[24:41]

What do you call the world? So, calling the world is again taking a step towards creation, co-creation of our physical world, of our social world. It's that choice, to put words to it, that both leads us into fusion and also guides us to the right questions to ask. So I'm most interested in the... What do you do next?

[26:35]

Do you call the world something? How can you stay in conversation with the world as you've created with your family and friends, when you walk down the street, the sidewalk was co-created by you and many others. So I'm going to ask you, what did you do about the work? Again, what seems to hold everything in it that we can imagine?

[27:49]

So what also holds everything that we can't quite imagine, that we can't quite free ourselves from. So I want to invite you to participate. in examining what to do about what being stuck on one side or the other. This way or that way. Dean. Peter. I'll bring a mic around, Dean. Okay. I'm gonna stand up. I have a little twang in my back, so. Thank you so much for being here and speaking.

[28:59]

There's two things that have been swirling around the time you've been talking and coming back and touching what you're talking about. At some point you said either we can't or we don't create relationships with give and take. And I started thinking about that and thinking about how I hinder myself. And all my perceptions, all my thoughts, everything always jumps in. Someone says something to me, boom, something else is there. And that my perception, or what I think might be their perception, or some sense of something is always there and disrupts it. So I don't know if it's that we can't as opposed to there's no space for it because we're too busy with our own self.

[30:06]

We're too busy then with the self of others and it's hard to not, it's hard to clear that out so that there is that pureness. And then as you went on and spoke about not knowing is most intimate, and the things sort of pulled together in my mind is that if someone, for example, asks me to do something, I immediately think, well, when can I do it? What all do I have to do? How's it gonna impact me? Well, can't they do it? A million things, with everything that happens, and I realized that not knowing is if I can have that very even brief moment of not having anything connected to that ask, then that's when I feel free, because sure, I can probably do that, it's not a big deal, or gosh, I can't, but that is when I feel free.

[31:15]

I mean, I'm going to use this phrase because I just don't have a better mind. That's when I feel most intimate with everything. And so I'd like to hear you, well, I'd like your thoughts about what I said, but also this thing of can we or don't we have relationships that give and take? And why we don't? Is it that we're so full of Yes, you just digged and described in elaborate detail my biggest problem. Anyway, it's mine too. Give it to yourself. Yeah, I stopped thinking so much. That's the advice I try to give myself. Thank you so much, Peter, so much.

[32:19]

Linda Hess has a question online. Okay. Hi, Peter. Hi, Linda. Can you see me? Sort of partially. I got half your face there. Okay. I wanted to ask you about the story that you briefly told. Why do you how do you why did you struggle with the medics? And how did you understand it when you woke up in the hospital? And how do you understand it now? OK, I was struggling with the medics because I wanted to do something other than be right there in the room. It was an overpowering desire. And it was very real as I experienced it. And let's see, one of the last two questions.

[33:26]

Yeah, I mean, how did you like it was very mysterious to me when you said you struggled with them and it took several people. So you just now answered that, that you had an overwhelming desire, which maybe you don't even understand. But then I said, when you woke up in the hospital room, did you understand it differently? Or even now, do you understand it differently? Well, I understand it a little differently having spoken with various people who were present. And I perceived and understood that situation as completely different to the way they did. But it was still real for me. I asked to speak. Yeah, go ahead. How I understand it now. I understand it as the very thin veil between utter madness and ordinary consciousness, which you have all helped me create.

[34:42]

We've done it together. Thank you. I really appreciate what you just said. I've experienced that thin veil as well. Yeah. And then we reflect together on what we create. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, sure. So it looks like Mary. Thank you, Peter. Thank you for your talk. Recently I've been struggling with the question of what's real and the notion or the understanding that we create our world, which is a principle that I grew up with in what would now be called a new age religion, and that I had some objection to understanding that in that way. And today you use the word that we co-create and so are there things that are real independent of our senses of them?

[35:57]

That's one way of looking at it. Like sometimes I've heard people say we have the sense perception of an eye and the consciousness of eye and the object being seen and that if you don't have One of those, you don't have the others. That one creates the other, that the object. That's the nature of our human. Well, so I had an experience this morning. I was late to Zazen because as I was walking to my car, either I walked into or a bee walked into me and stung me on my neck. and I still sort of have the remnants of those feelings. Did I create that? Or what part of that experience is not real? What part of it is not real?

[37:00]

Yes. What part of it is illusion? Well, I think it's all real. The question is, What do you do with that? As I understand it, you experience it in a very direct and physical way. And I don't see that there's anything not real about that. So in that way, when we say we create a reality, there's some other part being created besides us, that we're not doing that by ourselves. Oh, I see. I think I see what you mean. That everything that goes on in the next moment is part of that co-creation.

[38:02]

I think that's about all I should say. Libby has her hand up online. Oh, okay. Libby? Thank you so much, Peter, for this beautiful talk. And forgive me for having a family interaction with Mary, but part of the co-creator there was the bee. When you say we, I don't limit that to human beings. I think all beings are co-creating the world that we live in. Thank you for your more thorough understanding. I think, Judy, you had your hand. I think it's my turn. Is that okay? Yeah. Okay.

[39:15]

Yeah. Anyway, Sam here. You and Ross, besides Sojin, are my oldest friends here. You guys come way back. And what a great talk because I love koan practice and I do a lot of koans. And Sojin used to give me koans because he knew I liked that. So I really enjoyed this talk. And I just want to say that you hit on some really good points. Me, myself, I don't know if you know what I'm doing now, but I'm running a new show, so my head's buried in just, in the suffering right now. You know, what's happening to brown people in this country, what's happening to Palestinians, what's happened to my own Indian people. So I, myself, have come up with something that is kind of my own koan now, and I just keep telling myself this. Just do your best. and do the best at doing your best, and that's enough.

[40:17]

That's all that there is. The intention is everything, because there's no way I can change it, no matter, and sometimes it keeps me up at night. I don't sleep much anymore, and it's pretty terrible what's going on right now, but that's all I can do, and sitting on Zabu is really strengthening me. You know, you're a person I really love and respect. This is really a great doc, man. Thank you. And I know Soju's looking down on us. Really, yeah. Enjoying the TV. Yeah, thank you for that. Thank you. Thank you. Let's see. I'll come back around. We still have plenty of time. Okay. Thank you for your talk. Sure. What do you do when you co-create something you don't really believe in?

[41:19]

That's the problem. I try to ask myself, is this where I want to come next? Because all the moments before when I was creating something I don't believe in are part of this moment. The question is, what's next? If you notice that you don't really believe in something, you take the next step. So you just turn away? No, I would say you probably turn toward. The problem is the fact that not believing, you're acting in a way which is not true to your belief.

[42:33]

turn toward to re-examine, right? Yeah, to ask questions, to do what's part of a normal relationship type of interaction. Thank you. Good morning, Peter. Good morning. So, it seems that you're saying that communication is important, but one of the koans seems to be saying that talk is cheap. So, I'm not sure which side, if any, you're taking. Oh, I see. I would say, you're talking about the second story.

[43:48]

The first story, I think it was the first. So, southerners. Oh yeah, okay. Southerners, how's the practice? Well, there's a lot of talk. Yeah, the question is, is that? Is that what's happening right then and there in that lot of talk? Right then. So, is there a lot of talk? Is that good or bad? Is that cheap or well-founded? I think you have to decide for yourself and do the best at scoping that out. but maybe that wasn't your question. Is the Dharma lecture more important than just sitting together as far as our practice goes?

[45:04]

I would say We are, right now, sitting together. Thank you, Peter. Hi, Judy. Your talk, particularly the piece about creation, co-creation, reminds me very much of from Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, a chapter that a lot of folks don't find so popular called God-giving. And he talks about if you think that creation, something you create, is separate from God, then you're separating from what you think you're creating.

[46:21]

So when I think of God, which he also calls the big I, I often think of that image of Avalokiteshvara with the thousand arms and in each hand there's an I, and the I can see. And in koan practice, as a, so to speak, curriculum, The last koans once studies are the precepts. So I was wondering, when I think of God, or like Martin Buber's Thou I, it's precepts. And so I'm wondering if you could say a word about that. Precepts. are the way in which we most basically understand our choices.

[47:25]

In which we are alive in the midst of making choices. Completely alive. It's not so much the type of activity as it is your emotion. Your complete immersion in the activity. So is that the complete that you were talking about? In some ways, yeah. Good to see you. Thank you. Somebody back there. Genpo and then Patrick. Okay. Just to linger here for a moment, I kind of have the same question about completion. Like when you said completion, I thought initially of like our vows that that's what we're completing. And that we do that like on a small scale, like with every choice you make.

[48:47]

And on a large scale, we're always kind of striving to complete or fulfill our vows. So between those two, the small daily scale and the infinite scale, which is better? Why is it different? Well, which one should we emphasize? You can't pick and choose that way. They're all, all-encompassing. Hi, Patrick. Hi, Peter. There's a plumber, he has a big sign out in open.

[49:55]

It says, got a problem? Forget it. What if we live in such a way that we just forget about all these problems? Forget them. How are you? Is that? The question I would have is, is that a way of ignorance? No. That's certainty. Living without problems, that forgetting problem, for me, smacks me right dab into the only certain point that I know. Which is. Okay. Is anything more certain than that? No problem, Ed. So, what's next?

[51:03]

Alright, no problem. How are we doing on top? Three minutes. Three minutes. Okay, this gentleman here. Can you say your name? My name is Dwayne. I'm a fifth grade teacher and I was thinking while you were talking that fifth grade teachers are really good at the not knowing. I typically ask them to do a quick writing assignment and hand shoot up all their I'd given them a little picture card and said, you know, describe what you see in the picture. I don't know what to write. So my response to them, what I was thinking today was this, I said, there's this big, big, big world of not knowing. But what I want you to focus on for the moment is the part you know.

[52:12]

That's what I kind of imagine listening to your talk. Always this huge, huge place of not knowing, and then there's this little point of concentration of, and I know this, or I know, with my path repeat, I know this. Anyway, that's not fun. Thank you. Maybe there's one more person. like your story also reminded me of pilgrimage, thinking of it as pilgrimage through realms of being, like animal realms, hell realms, hungry ghosts, feva realms.

[53:16]

I don't know if not knowing is the most human, human realm, something like that. So do you have a question about that? Yeah. It's not knowing the most intimate. Well, in the context of this story, That's the view that's being pointed to. So, what is your question?

[54:19]

I don't actually know at this moment. Okay. I don't know. Maybe over a cup of tea and a cookie. with them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. the Saturday director today.

[57:49]

I forgot to print out the announcements, so I'm going to wing it with some little refresher from Lori. So on Monday, Ken Knapp will give the Weisiki Mind Talk at 8 a.m. in the online Zendo. And on Thursday, Dave Rushman's class on the Mountains and Rivers Sutra, Mountains and Waters Sutra by Dogen Zenji will continue. That's at 7.15 to 8.45 on Thursday evening. And next Saturday's Dharma Talk will be given by Linda Gallien-Roshi. As a reminder, Berkeley Zen Center is a scent-free environment, so please refrain from wearing scented products in the Zen Dome or laundering your clothes in scented products. For more information about our programs, there's a bulletin board outside in the courtyard. If you're on Zoom, there's information pasted into the Zoom chat, and there's also our website. To make a donation, On our website, there's a generosity tab and there's a donation box outside. You can make a donation here today.

[58:51]

If I can get two volunteers who have time after our tea and cookies to help wash the teacups, that would be great. Two volunteers, please. I got one. And another. Thank you. Thank you. As we're leaving the Zendo, please maintain silence until we're off the steps and then feel free to socialize with one another. And if you're online, please feel free to unmute and greet one another. Thank you. Hi, everyone. Hello. Good to see you, everyone. Nice to see you. Bye. Bye-bye. See all of you. We didn't have it the whole time.

[59:53]

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