Dharma to look out at and I have such a rush of feeling when I hear all women's voices. It takes us a little bit by surprise and it's very sweet. Well, I have so much to say. We've been having women's sittings now, I think, for three years. Is that right, Maile? I know it was before we went to Japan. I think it was 1991. And that's the problem with women's history, her story. We never write it down and we don't keep track. And since the founding mothers of women's sitting assisted in this birth. I've been talking to y'all in my head for three years and I almost gave a talk in March.

[01:12]

Karen asked me, she was the director, but I was going to Japan and so I couldn't do it. So this time I was the session director. So I most immodestly asked myself, and I said yes. And then went about finding a session director. We like to really share authority and leadership as women. I think it's a little different feeling. It was something that we discovered on our trip to Japan. But in the three years that I've been talking to y'all in my head, I've been gathering stories about women's practice and looking for images of women in our history, our herstory. And Rebecca has also been doing something very similar in her own mind and with Clay.

[02:20]

in creating female images and we have the mother of the Buddha or the sister of the Buddha here with us today. Do you want to say anything about her? She represents Prajnaparamita, an image of Prajnaparamita. Well, trying to get this talk... Will you turn the clock around so I can see? You don't have it? That's okay. Reminds me a little of something that happened when my older son was about 4 or 5. I have two boys. I never had a daughter. My boys are 24 and 21 now.

[03:21]

And when he was about 4 or 5, And the other one was maybe two. Sleep was a very precious commodity. And one weekend morning, we were sleeping in, and there was a little tiny knock at the bedroom door. And he was a very sweet child. And he was hungry. So I said, well, go make yourself some bread and honey. And I went back to sleep. And then there was another little knock. I spilled the honey. I said, that's okay, I'll clean it up when I wake up. Went back to sleep. Then there was another little knock. And this time he said, the honey was high and thick, and now it's big and thin. And this time I woke up.

[04:21]

Because I had a 75 pound tin of honey in the storage room. And I had a little small dish of honey in the kitchen. And my four-and-a-half-year-old had gone into the storage room and taken this big tin of honey, gotten the lid off, and attempted to serve himself 75 pounds of honey. So I shot up in bed and I went out to see. And there it was, spreading. And it was so big. It was such a mess. There was so much of it that I couldn't even begin to think of how to gather it up. So I did what any self-respecting mother does. I went to my husband and said, what do we do?

[05:24]

I can't even figure out where to begin cleaning this. And he was very good. You know, he got cardboard and started to make pushers with it, and then we gathered it all back up in the can, and we gave it to a friend who had a goat. But also in preparing this talk, I did the same thing, which was to go to my husband and see if we could get a little cardboard and gather it up a little. And what I want to talk about is, what I've gathered it to be, is what is it that women uniquely need from this practice? And what is it that they have to offer this practice? And there's another side of that. I see it's already spreading. The other side of that is, does it really matter that we're women in this practice?

[06:29]

Does it really matter at all? Because, you know, we have these directions. From the top of the 100 foot pole, take the leap, take the step. But for me, there's a piece that's left out in that direction, which is, how do you get to the top of the pole to take that leap? You have to crawl, inch by inch, untying the knots and the threads that are holding you. Inch by inch, you climb that pole before you take the leap. These are the equivalent of the cardboard pushers. There are some notes. So I want to talk a little bit about how it is that we climb that pole, that we find our way as women to enter Zen.

[07:39]

And there's a wonderful story to put my cushion. It was very helpful. There's a wonderful story about a monk who came to his teacher and said, I'm earnestly seeking the truth. Where do I enter Zen? And the teacher said, do you hear the murmuring of the mountain brook? And the student said, yes, I do. He said, enter from there. Years later, another student said, well, I've heard this story of entering Zen from the sound of the mountain brook. But what if when the master had asked his student Kyosho, do you hear the sound of the mountain brook? He had answered, no. What would the master have said then?

[08:39]

This was Mr. Kyo asking the question. And his master Aum said to him, Mr. Kyo, and he said, yes master, he said, enter the stream of Zen from there. So I think that there's a way that we enter the way, the stream of Zen, from our womanhood. So I'd like to talk about why that's important. And I'd like to tell a little bit about the differences between men and women, which is awfully thorny, and then come up with our story and our solutions. When we look for our entry into this practice, what do we find?

[09:44]

This was one of the reasons that we began, or I began, gathering stories of women in our history and why we began seeking a feminine image. Today, as we look at other spiritual traditions, we see only the beginnings of women as teachers. Still, there are spiritual traditions where women are not allowed to be teachers. This is very much part of her story. This is very much part of our story. But one of the things that shocked me most when I started gathering her story was something I read, which sounds very current. After all, universal emptiness is universal emptiness. The four elements are the four elements, and the five skandhas are the five skandhas. Women are the same.

[10:48]

Attaining the way can be accomplished by both men and women. Moreover, we must equally respect both attainments of the Dharma. Do not be concerned with the differences between men and women." Well, this was written in the year, in March, in the year 1240 by Dogon. And what shocked me when I found this was not only that the sentiments existed, and there were stories of Chan teachers, women teachers, who had large gatherings of students, both male and female, in the year, in previous to the year 1200, but that I had never heard this story, that it existed in the Shobogenzo. It's called Raihai Tokusui. And that I had never heard that story told here. And there are many stories in the Rai Hai Togo Suite, in the Shobo Genso, in this particular piece, about women teachers and their experiences.

[11:50]

So I began to think about, well, if in the year 1200 this was already a non-issue in a certain way, that women were teaching, that they were recognized as part of the tradition Why does it seem like such an uphill battle? Why is it that when I look around I don't see this in the same way as part of our tradition? And I began to think about the way that women are and the way this intermingling of women's characteristics and the culture that we exist in co-participate in not allowing us to assume our Dharma position. And I could spend a great deal of time, after all I am a psychologist and I did do a doctoral dissertation on the differences, gender differences, between men and women and attention and other things.

[12:55]

And I could spend a lot of time talking about that and we could argue a lot about what are the differences between men and women. But I thought it would be much more interesting to talk about the myths in the spiritual traditions about men and women. And I thought I would start with something really familiar from the Bible about the creation myth. This is a patriarchal myth. in its story gives us some feeling for the myths that have been handed to us, for the misunderstandings of many lifetimes that we carry. Well, let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind, and it was so. And God made the beasts of the earth after His kind, and cattle after their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the earth after His kind.

[14:03]

And God saw that it was good. I will skip now, as He makes everything. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it. And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And the Lord God said, it is not good that the man should be alone. I will make him a helpmeet for him. And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.

[15:05]

And whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found an helpmate for him. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, And he slept, and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof. And the rib which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall claim unto his wife and they shall be one flesh." Well, I think you know the rest of the story. Does anyone not know the story of how she betrayed him and how they were punished by God?

[16:11]

And this is our story. This is a story that most of us grew up with about our relationship to the Creator to man and to the universe. And it's a story that's a story of hierarchy and it develops so that her sons compete with one another and one kills the other. And it's a story that goes on to name every generation by the men who were born. with no names for the women until later, as women named only as the wives of the men. So the characteristics that stand out for me are the hierarchical model, the competitive, the fact that God gave man dominion over all the creatures of the earth, which says a lot for where we are right now.

[17:23]

with our environmental issues. This is a model. Man has this earth to do with it what he will. Well, I wanted to share with you another myth. And this is the myth of the matriarchy. This is the myth from the American Indians, and it comes from a book called The Daughters of Copper Woman. It has different characteristics. In the days before the coming of the people, the coast was almost empty. Only Copper Woman lived here, alone with her secrets, her mysteries, and herself, with a capital S. Copper Woman lived, but not well, for her secrets were incomplete and her cycle unfinished, her world not yet a totality. Alone, she came from the bowels of the mountains and built on the shoreline a small wooden house.

[18:26]

Alone, she learned to harvest tutsa, the sea urchin, yais, the butter clam, hechen, the little neck clam, asam, the crab, amekt, the horse clam, and soha, the spring salmon. She learned to eat the meat and make clothes from kiktlats, the fur seal. Alone, she learned tutluk, the sea lion, was not to be approached unwarily, but still her existence was marginal at best. In the time of the first autumn storms, a craft of godly creatures appeared and taught Copper Woman all she must know to survive on a better level. Coming from the setting sun, riding down the golden slide that cuts across the water just before the blanket of nightfall, they came to teach her what all humankind must know to live more fully. But this was not the time nor the place for the magic wands to stay. And as they left for their place, Copper Woman began to weep.

[19:29]

Bitterly, she cried, for loneliness is a bitter thing and an acrid taste in our mouths. More bitter when you think you have been freed from it and find it returning again. So much did she cry. Her very head began to drain of all fluid, and as tears fell from her eyes, from her nose fell great amounts of thick mucus. Tears and mucus, and from her mouth saliva, and her face swelled as the waters of loneliness poured. From her nose an enormous cluster of mucus strands fell onto the sand and lay at her feet. And so great was the cluster that even in her pathetic state, Copper Woman was aware of it and grew ashamed. Trying to conquer her wailing, she tried to kick sand over the mess, bury it, hide it, return it to the earth. The Magic Woman told her not to feel shame, not to bury this knot, but to save it, even cherish it.

[20:37]

And when she had learned to accept, Even this most gross evidence of her own mortality, then from the acceptance would come the means whereby she would never again be alone, never again be lonely. They told her that those times when body secretions flow, those times when a woman answers the call of the moon, are holy and sacred times, times for prayer and contemplation. Copper Woman did as she was told, not understanding but having faith, she scooped the mess up in a mussel shell and put it with her magic things. A few days later, she noticed that the sand in the shell was moving. She looked closely and saw a small, incomplete thing twisting uncomfortably in the small shell. Copper Woman carefully placed what was in the muscle shell in a larger shell, a shell of umect, the horse clam. Every day she watched and became aware that the small living thing Incomplete was growing something that looked like a miniature of the neck of the horse clam.

[21:42]

Soon, the small figure was too large to be comfortable in the shell of Um Act, so she put it in a shell of Tut's Up, the sea urchin. But in only a day or two, she moved it again, for beneath the thing that looked like a neck of the horse clam, this thing was developing small versions of Tut's Up, and Copper Woman did not want the spines of the sea urchin to grow between the legs of her little friend. For then, how would he walk? So she put him in the shell of Assam, the crab, and for a few weeks he was happy. Although, like Assam, he would grab at her with his hands and not want to let go. Copper Woman put her little mannequin in a bed made of fur from Tut-Tut, the sea lion, and he was happy enough. Even though on his face he grew whiskers, and on parts of his chest and belly the soft fur of the big animal. And his voice became deep. and he would roar with jealousy if Copper Woman spent too much time admiring something else. One night, the snot boy left his bed of fur from toddlers and crawled in bed with Copper Woman.

[22:50]

He fastened his mouth like the mouth of Assam on her mouth, and his hands, grasping like the claws of Assam, felt for her breasts. Copper Woman knew she could easily destroy this impertinent snot boy But she also felt responsible for him and sorry for him for being such an incomplete collection of traits from a number of sea creatures. Had not the sea saved her? Had not the god women come from the sea and told her this strange thing would be the means whereby she would never again be alone? Besides, his mouth on hers was pleasant, and his hands, though demanding, were not hurtful, and caused a warmth in her belly. A warmth that grew until the part of him made from the neck of Amakt and the parts of him which resembled Tutsak began to come alive and grow. And she welcomed Amakt into her body and held the snoth boy close to her, closer until the lonely feeling almost but not quite went away. And she felt her body swelling, filling as if with the moon.

[23:55]

Copper Woman soothed him and held him close and wondered if the loneliness would ever totally go. Many times thereafter, she would hold the snot boy close and fix her mouth on his, use the magic of her hands to awaken the two small tuts up. And once they were awake, the amek part entered her, seeking, exploring, taking her almost from loneliness, but never totally. Well, Copper Woman was living with Snot Boy, the incomplete mannequin, in the place where the god women had come to give her knowledge. She taught the small creature as much as she could, but he never really seemed to learn properly. When he built a trap, there was always one part of it not properly made, and many of the fish would escape. When he built a fire, it was either too hot or not hot enough, and often he would burn himself. When he was through using the thing, he would leave it, never remembering to put it away. He would complain bitterly if his food was overdone or cold.

[25:02]

Copper Woman would tease him, make him forget his ill humor. At one point, her breasts grew large and tender, her belly filled until it looked as if the moon itself was trapped inside. And one day, movement within her told her she was no longer one person but two. Copper Woman prayed daily that this other would not be incomplete like the snot boy, but rather an entire person capable of responsibility and attention to detail. And she says, Copper Woman looked at her daughter and felt the loneliness diminish until it was no larger than a small round pebble on the beach. And Copper Woman goes on to have daughters and sons. And the sons are less incomplete than snot boy. But still, we have a lot of dualistic thinking here. Where we have the Bible and the story of man.

[26:04]

And here we have the story of woman as the creator. And I think it's wonderful that they use a rib and we use snot. we still have this relationship of one-up and not being able to find our way of completing each other. I think this notion of how we have gender and do not have gender is expressed really wonderfully in this quote I have from Hong Shi. Emptiness is without characteristics. Illumination has no emotional afflictions. With piercing, quietly profound radiance, it mysteriously eliminates all disgrace. Thus one can know oneself, thus the self is completed.

[27:05]

We all have the clear, wondrously bright field from the beginning. Many lifetimes of misunderstanding come only from distrust, hindrance, and screens of confusion that we create in a scenario of isolation. With boundless wisdom, journey beyond this, forgetting accomplishments. Straightforwardly abandon stratagems and take on responsibility. Having turned yourself around, accepting your situation, if you set foot upon the path, spiritual energy will marvelously transport you. So it seems that, as I read this, there's a couple of approaches to this many lifetimes of misunderstanding. One way is to just sit to enter this stream.

[28:06]

Another way is to sit through the revelation of this many lifetimes of misunderstanding. How do we clearly see the many lifetimes of misunderstanding as it manifests in ourselves through these myths that have been passed on to us? I got a big kick out of this story from Coffee Woman and my awakening was when I shared it with my son. He said, well, you know, that's no better than the Bible. How could you believe that women are better than men? How could you believe that women are more complete? And it's tempting, you know, it's tempting to isolate and also to blame and to look at our situation.

[29:12]

My son, one of my sons came to me and said, Mom, do you know how much of the world's material wealth is owned by men? What's that, 80%? Then he kind of hung his head, he said, no, 99%. So it's interesting to see how we got in this position and what these many lifetimes of misunderstanding look like for each of us in our life now and in our lives together here at the student center. In the story of Copper Woman, you see the real difference between the patriarchal myth and the matriarchal myth. As she goes on to talk about her sons and daughters and the sharing of the teaching, there's much less of this hierarchy, much less of honoring the gods in the same way or needing to respect them.

[30:15]

The feeling of shame that God engenders or that comes up for Adam and Eve and God tells them, you know, in a sense, you should be ashamed of yourself for what you've done. In the matriarchal myth, the gods say there's nothing to be ashamed of. It's very much a drama that plays out you know, where daddy says, you know, get it together, you know, you've done wrong, and mom says, you know, it's all right, it's going to be all right. So there's this notion of accepting oneself, and there's also this notion from the patriarchy of all of the rules and the structure. And it seems to me sometimes that as women we're a little unprepared to deal with the hierarchy. The story of entering this dream is really brought out for me by the story of Aishin.

[31:23]

And Aishin very much wanted to be a nun. And her brother was the abbot of a monastery. Now, I'm not sure when this was. I'm going to guess somewhere between 1300 Well, maybe it was China, so it could have been before. So I'll take that guess back. In any case, she went to him and asked to be admitted to his monastery. And he said, no, you know, you need to serve our parents by having a family. And besides that, you're too beautiful. The trainees in this monastery couldn't deal with your beauty. It would be too distracting. So in a short time, a few days later, she came back to him with her head shaved and her face burned by coals that she had applied to her flesh, and he admitted her to the monastery. So there's something about our way of entering the stream that has been different historically than just knocking on the door, although there has been a lot of initiation from him as well.

[32:38]

And I've struggled with that story more than any story I've ever heard and tried to think of ways around her dilemma. In thinking about that, I thought of another story and that is the story of the Buddha. And there's a myth that I'd like to tell you about the Buddha. Most of you have probably heard the story of the Buddha and how he was born to a very wealthy family and how they had heard the prophecy that he was going to be a great teacher while he was still in his mother's womb. Well, for me, just like Rebecca has created the female image, it seemed to me that the Buddha had a twin sister. who was born just a few seconds after the Buddha.

[33:40]

This is my story. You'll get this confused with the real introduction to Buddhism that you're going to hear. She was born a few seconds after the Buddha. Together they comprised the entire Dharma realm. He was curious and explored while she radiated acceptance and adoration. The things I'm going to say about the Buddha are true from the Buddha's history. I just made a composite for the system. While he made skillful use of things, she adored all creations. While he accepted his entitlements as prince, she shied away from the attention-seeking, the comfort of close relationships. seeking the comfort of close relationships. He was tutored in all the studies of the times. She was taught the women's way in the palace. While he broke the rules and sneaked out of the family grounds, she showered her relatives, her servants, and all the creatures of the palace with adoration, completely losing herself to ending others' suffering.

[34:43]

While he was unaware of aging, death, and illness, she experienced the loss of a life each month along with her own suffering through her developing body. Through her puberty, she became aware of suffering, old age, and death, while these facts were hidden from her brother, Siddhartha. He resolved to find the meaning of life through his own salvation when he became aware of suffering. She vowed to offer salvation to everyone else before she thought of herself. When it came time for the heroic journey He stole from the palace at night, abandoning his wife and newborn as well as his relatives. She stayed behind in the palace comforting the abandoned family and trying to make up for their loss with her devotion. He went out on his own. She waited for everyone else to be comfortable. He left behind the ways of his family.

[35:46]

She made peace with these ways. He trusted his faith. He trusted his body to life on the road with nothing, and she stayed in the protection of the family. But when she had made her peace with her duties, and it was time for her journey to begin, she looked for him just as Eshrin had for her own brother. She found him as the head of the order and asked to participate in the Dharma through the structures he had founded. He refused her entry. as he did, and a senior monk convinced him to accept women into the teaching. So he reluctantly allowed his sister to enter the order. When she was willing to find her way without the safety and protection, he insisted that the nuns' order have more rules for their own protection.

[36:48]

And that's true. The nun's order had more rules. And when she was ready to participate in the structure of the order, he insisted that she be subordinate in every way. She was to be, even if she were the most senior nun, below the level of the most junior monk. Yet, she accepted his rules and sang the praises of her life in the order. And this is the story. While there was no twin sister of the Buddha, this is her story. This is the story of the women who came to the Buddha. And he said, I can't allow you in my order. If I allow you in my order, it will deteriorate faster because people will be upset by us breaking this conventional rule that women ought to be at home. He was convinced by another disciple to allow women in the order.

[37:55]

And he did create additional rules and rules that kept her subordinate in the order. And what could she have done that was different? If today we're retelling the story of the Buddha's sister, what could we have done that would be different? One thing is, she might have said, I don't trust this way that doesn't see me as part of this Dharma realm. I'm going back to live in the home and practice with women another way, a way that isn't home leaving. Or, she might have said, this way doesn't meet the needs of women. I can create an order where women can express the Dharma their way, or she could have joined the Order, and from her position within the Order, not relented in asking for what was right, not accepted her second status position.

[39:12]

But as we know, As these characteristics emerge in the midst of women in their interdependency, of men in their hierarchy, we know, in a certain way, the way we are. And we have, as part of history and her story, for example, the creation of this women's sitting. And there were matriarchs present at this time asking for this special time for women. And there was a great deal of opposition. But the Buddha's sister didn't leave the practice committee. The Buddha's sister continued to sit despite the dissenting voices. And she didn't allow herself to be scapegoated. And she didn't let go of her position. She didn't give in

[40:19]

to the sweetness of the relationship with the teacher. The disturbing of that was okay. And she didn't give in to making everybody happy. The Buddha's sisters sat through the meetings over and over again, maybe for more than a year, until more of the Buddha's sisters joined her. And when there were enough sisters, the Sangha voiced its own acceptance of the women's sittings. And so they began. And that's the history and the herstory of how we came together in this way. And for me, the lessons for the Buddhist sister and for us have to do with just those characteristics.

[41:22]

The characteristics of not assuming the role of the good girl. The characteristics of standing firm with what you believe in, allowing yourself to be part of a hierarchy, without being co-opted by it, without becoming co-dependent, without being scapegoated, but firmly holding to what you believe is right. So there's a way that women need to learn how to stand up in the face of dissent without taking abuse and without letting go. And there's another part of the story, which is how women need to support one another and the emergence of female teachers, so that when we pass this teaching on to our own children and grandchildren, and they look to the teaching, they see their own image.

[42:30]

In returning to the other side of this story, the genderless side, I'd like to quote Zen Master Hung Hsi again. He uses a term that's very popular with the Japanese, which is desirable. Thin, I'm going to say thin-skinned instead. Empty and desireless, cold and thin-skinned, simple and genuine. This is how to strike down and fold up the remaining habits of many lives. When the stains from old habits are exhausted, the original light appears, blazing through your skull, not admitting any other matters. Vast and spacious, like sky and water merging during autumn, like snow and moon having the same color, this field is without boundary, beyond direction, magnificently one entity without edge or seam. Further, when you turn within and drop off everything completely, realization occurs.

[43:50]

Right at the time of entirely dropping off, deliberation and discussion are 1,000 or 10,000 miles away. Still, no principle is discernible. So what could there be to point to or to explain? So I'd like to stop now and see if you have something to say about either side of this, removing these stains or old habits, being through with the misunderstanding of many lives, climbing up the pole or jumping off the pole. I've been thinking as you've been speaking about the Prajnaparamita, there's a dedication that goes with her when you've recited a sutra associated with her, and it says that she has a clear knowledge of the own being of all dharmas, for she does not stray away from it.

[45:05]

And I think that that's something that seems to me a female characteristic, that, you know, things seem to have a substantial separate self and you have to get, it seems to me that it's one of the things you've been talking about, you have to get right up against it in order to then be able to see the other side, the emptiness. And dealing, you know, right there with the details of the family and of one's body and so on, of what's not. That's where you find emptiness. I think that that's a woman's way at any rate of finding. Really being emerged in it. And that's a biological piece, you know, with the snot and the menses and all, and the diapers and the milk. It just gushes. I noticed when I listened to you that the discussion of women and women's practice still takes place in relation to men.

[46:26]

When I took my precepts here, I vowed to continue this practice. And then I found, over time, that there was a part of me here that was starving. Because this is a tradition that is rooted in military tradition. It's very stoic. It's very individual. And I longed for a feeling of congregation. a community that I was missing. And I also want for some acknowledgement of or some engagement with suffering in the world. And I know that there are brave individuals here who also have those feelings and fight those battles.

[47:34]

And somehow, nevertheless, I still found myself starving. And even so, even though this is a wonderful thing, and there are all these individuals that I see when I come here, there are still ways that I find myself hungry. For example, I'm a lesbian, and part of that for me is that I don't want to participate in the kind of gender role that gets imposed on me. And I know that when, here and elsewhere, I have sort of stood up and kind of presented my view, I've gotten scapegoated as a troublemaker. And all that. And it's a struggle. And I know that, you know, Zen Center, for example, next month is having its very first ever event for lesbian and gay people at Green Gulch. And so, I think we have a long way to go.

[48:39]

And I appreciate these moments because they're a little glimpse of what's possible. And they reassure me a little bit and they give me a little bit of courage to maybe find my way back to a practice that's rich. So I don't have any conclusion. Neither do I. But I appreciate the opportunity. Yeah, I appreciate that for you as a Buddhist sister, the solution is not so clear yet. And I've written a myth that has many endings, and you are writing an ending for yourself, or a direction at least for yourself. And also for me it's been very helpful to go elsewhere and look elsewhere and see other possibilities and bring that back and find a blend.

[49:51]

Suzanne? I'm not exactly sure what it is you're trying to say. I'm a little bit reeling with uncertainty at the moment. But I feel a really strong need to say something about how uncomfortable I feel when men are trashed. And I don't know if that's your intention here. What, to trash men? Yeah. But I'm experiencing that in the air. I feel so uncomfortable with languaging that forgets the kind of repression and oppression that men have suffered on this planet, and the kind of responsibilities that they've had to deal with.

[50:58]

And I feel so grateful for my womanhood. And I feel so powerful in it. And I just don't want to ignore that. I've been supported by a long history of strong women who've overcome a lot of difficulty in relationship to that. I live in a unique era in that way. I feel like the process of evolution is a really long and difficult process. more and more deeply and fully and that what's happened may have really sucked and I can't rewrite it and I can't change it and I want to understand it and understand who I am in relationship to now.

[52:04]

I'm quite concerned if it sounds like I'm trashing men because I don't feel that way but I do know that that's done quite a lot And in fact, I was trying to say, it's so tempting. Listen to this myth. It's so seductive. And in the story of the patriarchy, I feel that the oppression that you're talking about with men is manifest there. That even though the story is told by men about men, the oppression you describe, the binding rules are foisted on them. But I feel like you do, that this requires attention and care to navigate clearly because of the myths, both current myths of bashing and trashing men and blaming them for everything and also just, you know, submitting to it.

[53:11]

There's something on both sides to look at. I've come to think of the story of Ananda being the one who made Buddha accept the women, because if you look at the historical record, that there may not have been a twin sister, but there was his stepmother, who was also his aunt, who led, I can't remember whether it was 129 women, 137 miles, or vice versa, walking to the place that Buddha was teaching and asked for him to begin an order of movement. And I mean, maybe he said no three times and maybe he did give in when Ananda asked. But he's got 137 women with bleeding feet standing before him.

[54:17]

I'd rather think that might have had more to do with it. a very good point, that they did insist, and they did, and I forget the name, there's a book that's written about all their songs, do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I forget the name. The First Buddhist Woman. Yeah, The First Buddhist Woman, yeah, that's the name of their song. And I don't mean to imply some evil on Buddha's part as being, because he was part of his own culture that refused to acknowledge this role for women. And he struggled with it, just as, you know, his aunt or stepmother, which she was both, did. And it's a very tender story. And yet, the way that the women accepted their submission once they were in the Order has very much shaped our relationship to the practice. They did accept Alma.

[55:21]

extra few hundred rules that they had and they did accept that they needed to be subservient to the most junior monk. They were also part of their time. That's right. And in terms of material wealth, they were part of material wealth. I can't remember in the hierarchy of wealth, I believe they came before or right after cows. In terms of being Well, but that's the point. The point is that we are always in our culture. And how do we see ourselves clearly wherever we stand in history and ask for what's right? This is so interesting and actually humorous to me, parts of this, because what I was feeling like what happened was that you were presenting the one view of let's not define ourselves in relation to men.

[56:27]

And Suzanne back there was, but let's not trash them either. You know, it's like those are sort of in some ways two ends of the spectrum. And I was like laughing at the first two extremes came out right away. And to me, it's like, I mean, I was laughing to myself thinking, well, what do I want? about us in relation to men and not trashing men, but focusing on what are the issues and what is it like to be women who are empowered or in the process of empowering and not in relation to the male psyche, in relation to what is our experience like? And I'm finding personally, and this is just beginning in my life, that the more empowered and secure and loving I feel inside about me and being alive, the bigger target I am in the world.

[57:40]

And I'm finding it very difficult to, I didn't anticipate that. I just kind of have been working on the first part. And so for me as a female who feels more empowered and more self-esteem and happy to practice, you know, those are some of the issues. And so what is anybody else feeling around here about that? About becoming more powerful and feeling like you're a target? Yeah, or just what do we want to do? What do I want to do about these next pieces in my life and in relation to women, not necessarily in relation to men at all. I mean, it just isn't an issue for me, that part, other than the fact that I do find myself a bigger target. Does anyone have something to comment about? Someone who hasn't said something, perhaps? Yes? Which one?

[58:41]

Well, my thoughts aren't fully formulated, I agree that as you get more powerful, you do become a bigger target. And as you become a bigger target, people start to get very fearful and angry, and they fight harder. And at that point, it seems like practice is more important than ever. And with all these contradictions and strong emotions and things swirling around, it seems like a good time to sit on the cushion try to find that big mind. I mean, one thing I'm wondering about is this whole discussion about small mind issues. Not to trivialize them, but I wonder if this all can be resolved by big mind. I mean, that's a question. I don't know the answer. Yeah, I don't either. I mean, that's why I bring up the two sides. One is climbing the pole, inch by inch, before you can leap into the komyozo-zamai, into the big mind. To do that,

[59:43]

requires the sitting on the cushion. To do that day after day, hour after hour, requires finding some place to do it. And that's finding a way to fit in. I find the most difficult thing being a woman and practicing is the climbing of the pole. It seemed to be on a linear place, you're going up, and then your hormones completely change everything and you feel like you drop down to, and it's just this constant wheel, it's very hard to get out of the wheel. I look forward to menopause, but now they give you hormones, so I hear that you're not as free as you can be. I often wonder, didn't Buddha say something that women cannot achieve enlightenment?

[60:45]

When you do fight against these rhythms, or you shouldn't fight, you probably should sit here, but it seems that when you're Under the hormonal blitz, you fall off the cushion much easier. Yeah, it's like the pole gets greased at certain times of the month, right? And if you have children, you have these incredible attachments. So everything that you worked for when you were, you know, younger and crazier, but you were still a little bit clearer. When you have children, there's much more noise. There are tremendous obstacles, which hopefully with If you have enough time, maybe you will have a big mind. But in the middle, you know, usually you're cleaning up the honey. Or something else. So I don't know, maybe you have words of wisdom to that dilemma. Well, I think that the climbing of the pole is imaginary because we never really get anywhere. But there's this effort that we bring forth.

[61:49]

And for women, the effort is finding our balance on this ship that rocks. So in fact, there's a lot of good effort there, because we're constantly losing our balance. And I find that, and what Mary said too, so there's that side of it, which is it brings forth a great deal of effort just to keep your balance with these shifting hormones. But also what Mary said, which is finding the absolute in the phenomenal world, you know, finding the unity in the diapers or the honey or the mucus, you know, really feeling your oneness with that. And sometimes the most overwhelming situations can be turned in that way, with that perspective. How nice. Yeah, well the effort continues. Yes, very true, because I think it becomes an immersion rather than thinking about the individual obstacles that you incur everyday with your children, speaking as a woman.

[62:59]

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