Good morning. Well, good morning. I said that. When I look at Suzuki Roshi's teachings as they're put into print, there's so much, an awful lot. So it's not always easy to decide what to talk about. And then I look at various talks, and I think, oh, this is good, and this is good, and this is good, and then I'll talk about that. And then the next day I look at it and I think, well, that's not so good. But it's simply my own mind, you know, which is getting used to something. When I get used to it, I think, well, this is not so good.

[01:01]

Why don't I go on to something else? Then I get used to that. Well, that's not so good. But actually, all I have to do is pick a book at random, open it up at random and start talking. That's a good way, actually, because that's very fresh and unmeditated, unpremeditated. Well, one thing that the Suzuki version gave on, which includes his attitude toward food and his attitude toward money. The attitude toward food, I'm afraid that you'd get really bothered by it if I talk about it. I think you probably agree with. And it's an unusual kind of talk and very nice.

[02:03]

So I will talk about food. It's called, it's named, of course, Money and Labor. But it's about food. Since Dogenzenji, it is more than 750 years So everything Dogen did is not so clear. In the meantime, our way has become mixed with other things. Over 700 years, we're not sure it's actually what Dogen was thinking or doing. There's a lot of stuff that we don't know about that happened at that time and what Dogen was actually about. except what was written down and what's orally transmitted. Although Dogen did write a lot of stuff, his actual daily activity is not so clear.

[03:09]

And in the meantime, Soto Zen, in all that time, has been really watered down and many things added to it. Keizan, his fourth ancestor, Dogen's line, mixed with Shingon practices. Most of our services and procedures are actually from Kaizan and come with esoteric Buddhism. So the chanting and the liturgy and so forth is not exactly Dogen Zen. So, and many other things, many indigenous qualities have been mixed in with Soto Zen. Like, I don't know how long this has been so, but if you ever go to a Japanese temple, a temple in Japan, a Soto Zen temple in Japan, there's usually a fox shrine.

[04:21]

There'll be two foxes guarding the shrine. And the fox cult in Japan was very big. Kitsune. Kitsune is the fox. It's a little brown one filled with rice. If you're probably familiar with it, sweet. And people leave that out for the foxes. But the foxes never eat it, because foxes don't eat kitsune. They didn't eat rice and stuff like that. But they leave that out for them. So there's the fox cult. And foxes, you know, It's a whole cultural thing about foxes.

[05:30]

They're shapeshifters. And they do all kinds of interesting things. And these fox rinds, it's a kind of folk culture. And the Shinto is a folk culture and the kitsune, original folk culture, and those have mixed in. They found their way into Zen, into Soto Zen. And it's not like Soto Zen uses that, but they somehow incorporate it to satisfy certain aspects of Japanese culture. So, where was I going with that? So, those are some of the things that have been mixed in.

[06:38]

I find it very fascinating, and the reason why I find the fox culture fascinating is because Zen practice is kind of austere. and doesn't satisfy a lot of the needs of the personal practice for people in Japan. But the fox culture allows people to feel free about their feelings and emotions and express themselves in a certain way that they can't do, that isn't supplied by the Zen culture, which is kind of austere and strict and formal. But the fox culture is very informal. So you find that this fox culture is very big in Japan. Anyway, so we're still studying how to know Dogen Zenji's way.

[07:46]

There are many things which we cannot accept completely. because we feel that they cannot be Dogen Zenji's way. So that's why we study. Maybe that's wrong, but anyway we want to accept the teaching sincerely with our heart or true mind. That's why we have to study. And also we think Dogen is the most sincere student or teacher among the teachers that we have. So we study Dogen. So this morning I want to talk about the relationship between the material and the spiritual in our everyday life, as Buddhists, and especially about the material. When we say spiritual life, people are liable to ignore the material aspect, the material side. That's a big mistake, according to Dogen Zenji. Material and spiritual are the same, according to Buddhism. So we don't separate. You know, people call this a spiritual practice, but Suzuki Roshi would never call this a spiritual practice.

[08:54]

It's just our practice. It's not spiritual or material. It's spiritual slash material. Body and mind are not separate. There's no... anything material is also spiritual, and anything spiritual is also material, so there's no separation. So we know that all of us have Buddha nature. All of us have Buddha nature, and I wrote in, or rather, our Buddha nature. He uses that term. We all have buddha nature, but he knows that we all are buddha nature. Because of that, we are very careful about the relations between us human beings. But we tend to ignore the relationship of human beings and other beings, like plants, or rivers, or mountains, or the earth, or material things.

[10:06]

This is especially true of food. You think food is very important, so you study food. But the way, when he came to America, he found that we study food. Our way of dealing with food is very different than anybody else in the world, I think, at that time, in the early, in the 60s and early 70s. When he came to America, you know, we were eating brown rice. his students. This was the beginning of the brown rice revolt. For me, there's a difference between revolt and revolution. What most people call revolutions are revolts. Revolution means something starts here, goes around in a circle and ends there. That's a revolution. Our car engine does so many revolutions per minute, right? did the wheels turn, and those are revolutions.

[11:12]

But upsetting something is called a revolt. It's like throwing up. In a way. So, it's a misnomer from my point of view. Most of our revolutions are revolts. If they actually came back, but in a sense they are, because those people who start revolutions, revolts, come around and become the people that they upset. That's the way it goes. Anyway, so we were eating brown rice and really investigating the food that we eat, which we're still doing today. That was the beginning of that revolution. We won't. So that's the milieu that he entered when he came to America. So that's why he's talking about it. So he said, we know that we all are Buddha nature, and because of that we are very careful about the relations between each of us, human beings, but we tend to ignore the relationship we have with other beings, like plants and rivers.

[12:25]

This is especially true of food. So you think food is very important, so you study food. But the way you study food is not always correct, which is right, because you put emphasis on yourself. the value of the food for ourself, rather than the value of what it is that you're eating for itself. You understand the difference? Ignoring the food's value, ignoring the food's intrinsic value or virtue, We have very selfish discrimination about food. I think this is a kind of selfish attitude of human beings. According to Buddha, everything is Buddha nature. So we should respect everything as you respect yourself. That is the main point. So how you appreciate food before you begin to discriminate about it is the most important point.

[13:30]

Buddhists from all times have paid attention to this point very strictly. You may say that that's too much. Probably do. So, what he's pointing at here is, when you are a monk, you do takohatsu, which is begging for food. And whatever appears in your bowl, that's what you eat. And you don't discriminate about, is it good for me? Is it, do I like it or don't like it? There it is. It's a gift. And you eat it. And you appreciate everything you eat for its own sake. Not so much what it does for me. So according to Buddha... Okay, I said that. For instance, my father was a priest. When he was going home, if he found some vegetable on the roadside, which a farmer or someone had thrown away, he picked it up and cooked it for us, and I had to eat it.

[14:35]

There was a small river in front of our temple, and many rotten old vegetables would float down from up the river. As soon as he found some vegetable-like things, to me those were not exactly vegetables. They might be good for compost, but not for eating. He cooked it and said, everything has Buddha nature. we should not throw it away." Wherever he went, he talked about how valuable food is and that you shouldn't throw it away. Because my teacher, my master, was also my father's disciple, he also was very strict with food. So, poor guy. Here you study what kind of food is good for you and what kind of food you should eat. People here are very proud of their knowledge of food and about how much nourishment

[15:37]

each particular thing has, laughing. I think this is good, and I understand, but when you discriminate in this way, you forget something, and I wonder if you are not also making a mistake, a big mistake. To appreciate the value of the food itself, for itself, is first and what kind of food you choose is next, I think. Dogen Zenji, as you know, left instructions about the kind of spirit you must have when you become a cook in a monastery. He said that the duty of a cook in a monastery is completely different from our usual idea of a cook. Completely different. So in order for us to know the duty of a cook, he left us the Tenzo Kyokun. which we have studied in the past, wonderful treatise, which gives the instructions for a monastic cook.

[16:48]

One of the instructions was, don't say kome. Kome is rice. You should say o-kome. O is the honorific prefix to kome. Okome. So, now most Japanese people put the honorific prefix to everything. Instead of saying chawan or tebowl, we say ochawan, venerable tebowl, venerable rice. Instead of saying kesa, we say okesa. This understanding is the kind of understanding we Buddhists have. So Dogen Zenji put emphasis on this point.

[17:52]

He didn't throw away even leftover water. If it came from a river, he respectfully returned the water to the river. I talked about that yesterday, if you remember. So then he talks about A lot of confusion we have right now in our society comes from a lack of understanding about the material world. As you know, in our society, we respect labor. Not so much anymore. Labor is the most important element when you determine the value of work. But before we count the value of labor, we must think about the various material things which are given to us. Labor is not the only thing you should count. Mostly, you pay for labor. That, I think, is a kind of arrogance of human beings. You ignore the Buddha nature which has everything, which everything has.

[18:55]

If we notice this point, our system of life will change a lot. In other words, how we respect the materials that we use. I've always been, felt very frustrated when I see buildings being built or remodeled and the materials just thrown away, the excess materials, the extra materials. When we were building, when we rented our first Zen Dome in Dwight Way, which is a rather large place and then built an attic into a zendo, I always scrounged for material to use in building that, the floor and building, making a use of, creating a zendo using used materials that people throw away.

[20:04]

I remember riding down the freeway and there's this huge piece of it to the Zen Dojo and used it. I just naturally always felt that way. I can't stand to see all this lumber that's just thrown away and used lumber. In Europe, I think they've used lumber. They've used lumber yards. And when we were building this place, I also used lumber. The floor in my office is used for flooring. gets kind of nicked up because it's softwood. But I just can't stand it, to not respect, to use and respect the nature of this material, of the materials that we use. I think that was because I was brought up in the Depression.

[21:10]

It really didn't have anything to do with W. Ninja. my natural way. But of course labor is also important, but labor will make sense when you work on things with respect. That should be the true nature of labor. But to only count the labor without having a deep respect for the things which are given is a big mistake. That is our human life in its truest sense. We pay for the labor and for the things which were given to us by Buddha, which is by God or by Buddha, which accords with your understanding. Only when we have this kind of understanding of things will our economic system change. Right. I am not an economist, but I feel that way. So money should be treated in that way. You pay for the work done on things with respect.

[22:15]

Money is exchanged for the value of things and labor, as you know. But behind money, there is respect for the material things which are given to us from Buddha. And there is respect for the labor, the efforts someone else made. To exchange means to purify. When you exchange things, it means to purify things. You feel that if you pay for something with some money that you don't... I see. You feel that if you pay for something with money that you don't owe anything to anyone. Now I paid for it and now it's mine. But that's as far as it goes. We don't always respect the passage of one to another or where it came from. But there is something missing in that idea. Even though you pay for the labor, there is something which you can't pay for.

[23:18]

That is the true value of what is given to you by Buddha. Only when we pay with respect for the things which are given to us, or for the result of someone else's labor, can we purify our life within our activity of exchanging things. Without this idea, even though you pay for the things you get, you still owe something. So that is why we must always have great respect for things, for money and for labor. This is Dogenzenji's idea of everyday life. So the money is not yours. It belongs to our society. Because you think the money is yours, you sometimes think that money is dirty. Some people may attach to money too much. And that kind of idea is a dirty idea, not a pure idea. When you say that money is dirty, your understanding is dirty. Actually, money is just money.

[24:20]

It's like the blood that flows through our body and keeps everything working. So to accumulate money can be allowable for someone like me. In order to be ready to enter the hospital or to prepare for your death, For a funeral parlor, it costs a lot of money. I had $1,000 or $2,000, a lot of money, and then he left. So we may need $5,000 or $10,000, but to rely on the power of money is wrong. Buddha did not like that way at all. In his time, the money system was not so strong. That's true. So he said, don't accumulate things. You should live on the food which is offered to you just before you eat. And you should not beg for more food than will suffice for the next meal. That's called the bird's path by Dozan, but it's also the monk's path.

[25:25]

I think Buddha was a good scholar of economy, and that is the most important point of economy, I think. The reason why we have money is for exchange. We should not stop the flow of the money. So in this sense, we say that everything changes. That is Buddha's first principle. Money is not a symbol, but money expresses the value of things which change. If things are valuable because we can eat them or live on them, then the flow of money should not stop. If money stops flowing, that causes a business depression. If money is going slowly all over the society, then our society is healthy. Of course we all know this, and we all know that money is not flowing over in society, and that we're very unhealthy. The reason people have cancer is because the world has cancer. Because blood is not flowing, money is not flowing. So people purify, money purifies our world.

[26:28]

It is not something dirty, it is very pure. It is a very important thing for us when we take care of it and respect it. Because you don't pay enough respect to money, the money becomes dirty. It doesn't matter how much money you have. Even if the money you have is very little, you should pay respect to it and you should make the best of it. we should run this Zen Center in San Francisco. We didn't like to say that you should pay some money if you want to come and study with us. People don't like that, right? But he said, why do we have to pay money in order to sit Zazen? In Europe, in France, every time you go to the Zen Dojo, you pay five bucks to sit Zazen. So, I remember these conversations.

[27:37]

Never paid money in Paris. Well, other people do. So, we don't like to say that you should pay some money if you want to come and study with us. We don't like it. But for us, That is a part of practice. Just to sit on a black cushion is not the only practice. How we treat money is very important, a very important practice for us. Most people forget how we survived here. You think you can survive alone in the remote mountains, but the reason you can go to the remote mountains is because of money. You cannot work when you get to the Sierras and the Rocky Mountains. It is very foolish to ignore how we survive here. Before we study Buddhism, we should know what we are doing and how we survive here.

[28:45]

So we think of this as a part of practice. But we do not reject people just because they have no money. We are ready to help each other, but each one of us purifiers end up with money, first of all. laughing. That is why I say you should pay. Give me some money. If you give me some money, someone will take good care of it. We should not accumulate money for Buddha because Buddha didn't like to accumulate anything. So the usual way to think about money is actually that the root of all evil, and it's dirty. But actually, this is a different way to think about money, is that it purifies our activity. If we use it in the right way, it's pure activity.

[29:45]

And money is neither good nor bad, nor dirty nor clean. It's just how we, the system we use to exchange things with each other and it's not just material but it also has a spiritual aspect in that as a vehicle for exchange it also exchanges appreciation and respect So that's not the only thing that is exchanged. When I go to the grocery store, when I go to the Monterey market, there's always an exchange.

[30:55]

And the cashier says, thank you very much. And I say, thank you very much. And there is something that's exchanged. It's not just the value. It's an interesting place, because it's very personal. It's big, pretty big, and it's a little bit funky. Maybe that's good, too. But there's always this feeling, a personal feeling, within the transaction that's always there. because it's the same cashiers, and everybody faces the same cashiers day in, day out, week in, week out, year in, year out, the same day. And everybody knows everybody, even though there are thousands of people that go through there every day. There's this little Chinese restaurant that I go to once or twice a year, and when I go in and sit down, the waitress says, How do you remember that?

[32:00]

She's only seen you once in a while. She remembers what I always told her. That's Mai. Huh? That's Mai at Veggie Food. What? Her name is Mai at Veggie Food. She remembers what everybody likes. Uh-huh. And people come in. Yeah. She says, oh, you haven't been here for five years. Yeah. Anyway, this is Suzuki Ryoshi's attitude. He feels this is Dogen's attitude. For him, appreciation for things is a spiritual activity. And this is what keeps the vitality of our lives flowing.

[33:11]

It keeps us actually healthy when we have this kind of appreciation and virtue as well as value. To appreciate the virtue as well as the exchange value. Do you have any comment? Yeah, David? Well, I was thinking, as you were speaking, I was thinking about our temple practice and money. Because for the time being, that's my job here. That's right. You're the treasurer. Yeah. And one thing I was thinking is that For the most part, we don't accumulate much. It goes around every year. Circulation?

[34:12]

Yeah, it circulates. So we have dues, which you sort of pay on a monthly basis, connected to Things we accumulate money for are fixing buildings, which are expenses that tend to come in big lumps once you get past small repairs. For example, we have to replace the front of the building that Alan and Lori live in, and that will cost a lot of money, so we have to accumulate it over some period of time. projects like that. Two other things we accumulate money for. One is to help support our teachers, particularly as Sojin and Alan are both being supported.

[35:21]

So we need to have a little more money in reserve for that. And the last thing is we accumulate money for sort of rainy day money. just to have a little bit of a cushion. If income falls off, we don't fall off the edge of the earth. But mostly, money just goes around. It circulates. It circulates around, yeah. It's good. rather than other big Zen centers worry about things like endowments. That's right. Things like that, you know, accumulating. There's nothing wrong with that. We tried that, but it didn't work. Yeah. Well, you know, all our money comes from us. That more money comes from us. Yeah. It doesn't. We don't have. My feeling about that has always been that because everyone works, it's not a monastery.

[36:46]

And so it's a little presumptuous to ask people to support us. If we were simply monks who didn't work and just did this, you know, was out there every day and all day long and so forth, then you ask for money. to support this endeavor in which these people, their work is simply to study and do Zazen. And that takes outside money to support it. But we're not doing that. So we support ourselves, except for some of us. Like Alan and myself, and a few other people. Those are exceptions. Those are exceptions, yeah. But Tamara, did you have your hand up? I did. I have to... I can't resist quoting Zen Master Sun Tzung. He said, after some economic crash, Oh, all the people left their money in the bank and the money went bad. Got rotten.

[37:50]

Much better to give to Zen centers. They'd only done the right thing. But then the more serious question about how money not being a problem would... Well, you know, I was trying to think of a good example, but for example, when we have something that is made here and made with good quality and with care by people we know, versus it gets made in Guatemala under, I just picked Guatemala out of a hat, you know, under extremely poor conditions, poor quality, poor materials, and we do that because it costs less money. We buy those things because they're cheaper than... So, you know, then... And you say, well, why are they doing it? Well, it's because of the money. And that is kind of why we talk about money being a root of evil. So do you want to comment on... Well, we can use money in evil ways.

[38:51]

So it's not the money that's evil, it's the use. Well, it's the idea that money is the most important thing. Well, yes, when money becomes the most important thing, then it's our mind that becomes evil because we hoard it or we become attached to it. But the money itself is okay. We attach to it. Yeah. Somebody talked to me about, oh, I got this brand new wonderful Mercedes, you know, about $100,000 or something. But, you know, it's making me... but it's a greedy thing. And I said, well, there's nothing greedy about the car. But it's you that's greedy. The car is just a car. The money is just the money. But it doesn't cause us to be greedy. Our greed just arises because we think we need it.

[40:06]

We should be very careful. I can appreciate a hundred thousand dollars or a million dollars, but if I use it in some way that's not wholesome, then That's dirty, so to speak. Well, I mean, for example, where I work, you know, I work with, I'm a speech therapist, and I work with kids, and I've been doing this for almost 10 years now, and I've always been paid by, based on how many kids I see, not on whether, you know, I could go in and see them and, you know, completely ignore them and eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich the whole time. And I would still get paid, as long as I turned in my paperwork and whatever. So the money starts to be driving the work, rather than the actual needs of the person you're working with. And I mean, that's true, I think, in a lot of professions. I mean, I know it's especially true now for physicians, that they're judged by how quickly they turn around the kids and can they bill for this.

[41:18]

Like, I remember, actually, I used to work with someone who said, that electroconvulsive therapy was becoming popular again because it was a billable procedure. I'm sorry Judy, there was a class of physicians that hadn't been able to recommend billable procedures and now they... We say money drives things, but money does not have a mind of its own. That's true. I was thinking of your definition of revolution and I thought what you were describing, what Suzuki Roshi was describing is money circulating in a roundabout way and coming back. And we are so resentful of those people who the greed comes from attaching to it, having piles of it and sitting on it and not letting it flow. And what David described with the finances here was that everything keeps going around. So 1%. Yes. So it's a revolution here too. I'm going to see if I can leave something between what you were saying about money and what you were saying about food.

[42:27]

When actually we eat in a way that we have that gratitude and awareness of the beingness and the energy of the food. Can you hear me? Yeah. I don't know if everybody can hear you, but I can hear you. When we eat in a way that we actually bow to the energy and the life force and the nature of the food and bow also to ourselves at the same time. Studies have shown that that is the way that we get the most nutrients from food. And what a metaphor for our relationship with money. And if I buy a new Mac computer, which is a new used Mac computer, which is really pulling on me, having heard on the radio that some people died in a Mac factory somewhere in Asia, and the Mac people were not willing to work at all on safety.

[43:34]

You know, I'm doing exactly the opposite of bowing to the food and bowing to myself and being one with that gift. that what I pay for is a gift to me that I've given to, and food is a gift to me that I give to. So does that mean you would not use the Mac? Well, this is my struggle. This is the dilemma that we have yet. This is the dilemma, and one has to slow down enough to sit with the dilemma. If you just go on the impulse, you get the Mac, because you need the Mac. You need the Mac. Yeah, that's right. So I think we should, in that case, Be mindful that those conditions produced, the MAC was produced under those conditions, but I need the MAC. Right. We have to live with that, one way or another.

[44:35]

Raul, can you keep track of people? Want to do that now? Yeah, I think we have to because I don't know how much time we have, but we do have to do that. Okay. Thank you for your talk. I was thinking about your comment about going into modern market and having this exchange with the sales. And I was talking to my husband last week about Safeway eliminating a lot of their checkers And these people are being displaced, and there is nowhere for them to go. So, when I thought about it, I thought, well, maybe there's something else that they can do. But having heard you talk today, I'm thinking about how important it is to have that exchange in our daily lives.

[45:44]

You know, the saying is true, what's going to happen with people who stand to take money at the big bridge? I haven't done that in a long time because I have fast track. But I remember when I didn't and I would give the money, there was some exchange there. I could be friendly and if I was kind to that person I saw them kind of perk up. Now I have fast track and I'm just isolated in my own little box. At the last entrance, they stand there. It doesn't depend on it because you're going the other way. You know, it's faster to go the other way. So, the problem I have is that in order to... You know, you want to get through the signal. You stop and you want to get through the signal. But then you have to undo your safety belt. You have to reach into your wallet pocket and gouge your wallet. Then you have to look in your wallet to see where the money is. And by that time, you know, the signal's changed and everybody's honking at you.

[46:50]

The only way to do that is to have money prepared. Right? And you know that the guy is going to be there. Whoever is there is going to be there wanting money. So you prepare yourself. And when you get up to that stop, of course you may say go, but when you get to that stop, you've got the money right there and you just hand it out. Otherwise, for me, it's like impossible. And I think about it, and every time I do that, I think, I'd like to give this guy some money, but, you know, I have to move with the traffic. And it's the same with walking down Market Street or, you know, in San Francisco. If you prepare yourself for giving money, you don't have to stop and take out your wallet all the time. I think, well, how many people am I going to give money to? maybe the first one or two. And so I keep the money available to just give it rather than making all these, you know, it makes it available.

[47:52]

And I'm prepared to do something like that. That's my understanding. Okay. Then Judy. I'm a little confused about if I'm in the midst of my practice as a social scientist or my practice here at the moment. So I'm getting a little scrambled. But I wonder, I think the message I was getting from the talk you were reading is that money can purify. And from what you're saying, that money is not good or bad. It is how we use it. We should appreciate it. But I'm also wondering about money is an expression of the conditions we live under, an expression of the conditions we live in so that the owners of Safeway are concerned about competition and lowering their prices.

[49:03]

So they fire the. cashiers whenever they can. And I don't know that I have much choice, always. Sometimes I do. I buy the really expensive happy hen eggs, because I feel strongly that I don't want to be eating eggs from a hen that's been abused. But in many, many, many other cases, the way that I interact with people with money I don't have much choice about what I am a part of, where my things are made, what conditions, who has the big pots of money, who doesn't. And you can feel very, I don't know, I can feel that sense of money is the root of all evil in the sense that it ties me into many things that I have a problem with.

[50:05]

I'm not sure what your point is. You feel that money can tie you into things that you don't want to be tied in with. Or ties you in with in a certain way that you object to. Or you're forced to do something, certain things. Well, I don't have a lot of money and there are reasons for that. And I don't have control over that. And so I need to buy cheap things. And that's true for a lot of people. Yeah, but isn't that money's the problem? To blame it on money is to look in the wrong place. I'm not saying to blame it on money, but what is there to do when exchange and money is how we're connected in many ways? Join the Occupy Movement.

[51:11]

Maybe the point there is, how is it that money is pure? Money is paper, so it's all our intentions that are embedded or reified in this piece of paper. Money is pure because it's non-dualistic. That's how money is pure. We dualize it. We say it's good or bad. But it's not good medicine. The purity itself is the non-duality. When we talk about purity, we're talking about non-duality. That's what purity means for us. Is an Apple computer pure? No. What? Is an Apple computer pure in and of itself? In and of itself it is, because it has no choices. It's not making distinctions. or choices. You are the mind of the computer.

[52:11]

So if one writes letters to the editor or does something to move society in a benevolent way, this computer, which is made by people who are underpaid and all that, it actually kind of purifies the impurity of the conditions. Well, if you use the computer in a way that is for the benefit of society, then that's a kind of redemption. It can be a kind of redemption. Judy had her hand up. Now I have two things to say about this business about Apple and the question about the Mac. I think what this woman said, and I don't know her name, was that it's a problem and she's sitting with it. It doesn't necessarily for me. I have a Mac. And I used to have very sentimental attitudes about it.

[53:14]

It started here in the Bay Area, blah, blah, blah. And it's so wonderful. And now we're finding out that nothing of it is made here anymore. And they're being made under terrible conditions. And we need to be aware of that and be concerned about that, I think. But I was thinking along the question you were, or the point you were making about you only have so much money and you kind of have to look for the cheap version and that may mean that you're getting something made by slave labor or whatever. There was an interesting email sent around by a friend of mine around the holidays talking about gift giving and she was urging people to try very hard to avoid giving things made in China, because almost all of them are made under terrible conditions. And she gave a whole bunch of things you could give that would be local things, like you could give somebody a gift certificate to have their house cleaned, or their car detailed, or something like that.

[54:20]

And they were very interesting, useful things that most people would be very happy to get, and where you would be giving a job opportunity to someone locally. So there are lots of interesting things like that that you can do. If you start, as she was suggesting, you start thinking about it, and you begin to see these opportunities. When I first raised my hand, though, I just want to remind us, those of you who were here, remember when Karen Sondheim gave a talk a long time ago? And in case you missed it, I'll tell you this anecdote is so cool. She was telling about an incident where she was going to be late to a meeting at work. And she had gotten up too late. And she was stuck in traffic. And she was well aware she was now going to be late to this meeting. And she was so pissed at herself.

[55:21]

And she said she had the windows rolled up in her car. And she was just yelling at herself, you stupid idiot. And she's carrying on the way one does sometimes in a car, where you kind of think you're in a bubble, but you actually are visible to other people. Anyway, she comes up to the bridge toll booth, and she's getting ready to pay. And she rolls down the window, and the person says, the car ahead of you just paid your toll. It was very cool. And she said, it just took it all away. It actually worked for her. It really was a great gift. And her anger and frustration just disappeared. Thank you. Well, playing off what David said in Berkeley Zen Center with its finances and what was just mentioned about buying locally, Berkeley Zen Center

[56:25]

To raise money, we'll be having another party. And we're looking for SACA members to donate their time and energy, come up with things like we did last year, to help make this place fun. Yeah, thank you. Putting on a dinner for someone, walking a dog with someone, that kind of thing. Very locally grown. All ties together. When David was saying that, I was thinking that we don't ask... Money is not what we ask you for as much as we ask for your presence. We much more appreciate your presence than your money. But we also appreciate your money. You had a question. No. Sue. Yeah. What a wonderful conversation. And boy, it just pulls into a lot of things where I'm talking about with my husband, who I think has an even stronger rumpled silkscreen tendency than I do, which is to sit on a pile of money and grasp it.

[57:44]

I mean, I am maligning him, I'm sure. that the feelings of greed comes up. And yet, we can see the consequences of the flow of money being constricted. It's like if we visualize the world, some of the places lit up brightly, just hugely brightly, and some of it completely dark. There's no resources. It's very poor. And we constrict those resources and people die. And when there's a flow, it's cleansing. It's like a river free to flow. And I don't know where I'm going with this except that there's consequences to everything we do. And we cannot be in control of much of it. But there are choice points that we can make. And I love the idea that Judy brought up

[58:46]

If anybody wants to give me a gift certificate for housecleaning, God, I'm ready. But it's a great idea for other people, too. And as far as having the money ready for people who ask you for it, I think Ross once talked about it. And you certainly said when somebody asks you for money, you just reach in your pocket. But to have, I like dollar coins. There's something fun about giving You know, you get a roll of dollar coins, and it's sort of fun just to do that. I like that. Or there's something satisfying about it, and a connection. The other side of that is sometimes I feel like I've done my part. I've given somebody a dollar coin, and it's like, then I can just miss them. So it's just like a mixed bag. There's no answer to that. There's no rules. I think that's all I have to say at the moment.

[59:49]

But we have changed our will and trust. We did that. It's like, do my kids really need this estate, or what there is of it? Now I'd rather have it go to things that I think, well, in addition, chunks that make a big difference, like the Berkeley Center. Yeah, I'm sorry. All I have to say is something negative. I feel like I'm jumping on what a bunch of other people said. And someone tell me if I'm wrong, because I heard secondhand that pretty much people on the streets anyway, if they want food, they can get it. they know there are places to go. And if they're asking for money, it's usually for alcohol or drugs. It is true that we don't know that, and that maybe there's a fundamental feeling of rightness and giving, when asked like that.

[60:58]

Yeah, I guess what's your attitude about playing the odd, the socks, the goats? Well, there's selective giving, and then there's simply generosity. And if you want to check into everybody's background about what they want to use the money for, that's pretty selective. And it's conditioned generosity. So unconditioned generosity is, hey man, you need a drink? You know, OK, whatever. And it's not even what you need. It's like, just If you want something, you can have it. When we tie it to conditions, that contains it. Because when we tie it to conditions, we have some idea of what's good and bad and what's right and wrong. When I should have tagged on the end, I usually end up giving people money anyway.

[62:06]

Yeah. So, you know, just give and forget. What did I just do? I don't remember. That's pure generosity. What did I do? I just, I don't know. So there's no feeling of, I did something wonderful, or I did this to help somebody. It's just, you want something? You can have it. I mean, money doesn't belong to anybody. It belongs to society, right? But we claim that we do. You know, like, I remember Nekomaroshi saying, these glasses don't belong to me, but thank you for letting me wear them. And Nekomaroshi saying, I would give you my typewriter, except that I need it for my work. You know? Yes? I feel I have no right to question the response to what you were saying at the beginning to people who were asking for money.

[63:13]

I got sober about 43 years ago when I was in New York and someone obviously in a drinking or drunken condition came to ask me for money. And I thought, no, I need to offer him a cup of coffee, a glass of ginger. He wanted some cheap wine. And it taught me a lesson that who am I to make that kind of, it's a real judgment. And so I think what you were saying about total generosity is really the only place you can come from unless I know that the dollar I give you, you're going to go out and buy a gun and shoot somebody. And I know that for a fact. I might then hesitate about it. I know. Right. So you have your yes and your no. Yeah. A bit, which reminds me, when I, up on Telegraph, you know, this guy, would come and say, you know, my family is this and that, you know, we have to go to here and there, and so I gave him five bucks. And then a week, two weeks later, same guy, same spiel.

[64:13]

Exactly the same spiel. No words were different. I didn't give it to him. I had one more small thing to say about the Macs. that, you know, I was thinking it's a food chant, innumerable flavors bring us this food, we should know how it comes to us. And I think when we say we do good work with our computers, I don't think that absolves the issue. But I think at least beginning to have that awareness is important, that we don't just say we did something really good, so it's okay that slave conditions ensue. No, that doesn't mean it's okay. No, but it's called riding the thief's horse. The thief's horse, right? It's like, I don't know what you do, but I get all these requests for asking me to sign my name to all these, you know, good things.

[65:22]

So that's using your computer to do something to amend this problem. Right? We're riding the thief's horse, so you use the thing to turn it around. It's not that it's good or bad, it's just... and it doesn't absolve anything, but it's like using it in a way to turn things around. He said that jobs aren't coming, the computer business isn't coming back to America because it's not about the money. They have the infrastructure in China to do all the pieces work to make the thing happen.

[66:25]

Not that Jobs is some great person, but he explained it. And I always thought it was about the money, but it's actually the business side of it which is a couple of pages. One cannot always do what one wants in business. KD, Ken, and Tamara. Just on that point, I mean, I think Something else that I've read about Apple's production process, not from Steve Jobs, but from other observers, is that they're very keen to have very tight control of their suppliers, and also keen to keep costs down to a point where they charge a premium. It's a similar kind of thing where a lot of conditions have come together so that it makes sense to produce it in China now.

[67:47]

But that's not the way it has to be. And certainly it doesn't have to be produced in China under bad conditions. A lot of conditions. So. I thought Ken wanted to say something. I don't know which Ken. Did you raise your hand? I thought I raised your hand. I was just saying, couldn't we come up with another way to exchange? I mean, I see the point that it's just an exchange, but couldn't we come up... Why are we so limited and think that this is the only way to exchange? It's not the only way to exchange. But we seem to be, in many ways, I mean, I think in many ways it seems like, well it seems like it is. It seems like we're stuck with that way of exchanging. That's why we're having all these problems that we're not happy about.

[68:51]

Well, maybe, but I would say, no matter what system we use, greed is greed. I'm not saying what you said. I'm saying what I'm saying. We can devise another system, but then green will take over the system. It always does. So it's not systems that are the problem. It's not governments that are the problem. It's people that are the problem. It doesn't matter what kind of government you have. Really, it's who's behind the government that matters. So we invent all these systems, democracy, and democracy doesn't work. I mean, it could work, but it doesn't. You know what the people in Afghanistan think that democracy is? War. That's what they think democracy is.

[69:52]

There was this woman, reporter, who interviewed all these people in Iraq and Afghanistan. What's democracy? Well, it's war. That's what they think it is, because we talk about democracy, but what we present is something else. It doesn't matter what system you have, as long as it's run well. Any system will work. Not any system, but most legitimate systems will work. But it's the people behind them. It is the greed, ill will, and delusion behind all the systems. Back in Sparta, I can't remember the name of the man who really created Sparta. It was one man. What he did was, instead of money, he issued iron bars, heavy iron bars that were almost impossible to lift as exchange value.

[71:04]

So nobody had any money. And that's the way they live without money. They just wait off their shoulders. That's how they develop those Greek. A new term for a new idea for pumping iron. How much time do we have left? We're out. We're out. We're out of here.

[71:46]

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