piece of Yunchu Daoying, or Japanese Ongo. And Ongo was So here's the case. The 39th ancestor was great master Yung-Chu Hung-Chau. He studied with Dongshan, and Dongshan asked him, what is your name? The master replied, Daoying.

[01:00]

Dongshan said, say it from beyond. The master said, if I speak from beyond, I cannot say that I am Tao Ying. Dronachan said, that is the same answer I gave when I was with Yunyan. This, say it from beyond, means, has a meaning of going beyond Buddha. Not like from some beyond someplace, but going beyond Buddha. Dogen often talks about Buddha going beyond Buddha, to get beyond any idea of Buddha, or beyond any

[02:03]

kind of idealization or idealization or concept. So he says, if I speak from beyond, I cannot say that I am Dao Yi. And Deng Shan said, that's the same answer I gave when I was with Yun Yan. So here are the circumstances. The master was from Wang Tian in Yuqiao, and his family name was Wang. He made his, it could be Wang, actually. He made his home departure at Yanshu Temple in Fanyang while he was still young, and he became a full monk when he was 24.

[03:17]

His teacher had him study the books of the small vehicle, but he didn't like them, so he left and went traveling. The small vehicle would be considered the polycanon, apparently. So when he arrived at Tsuei Monastery, he asked about the way for Master Tsuei. No pun intended. So it happened that a monk arrived from Yuchang, and he vividly recounted Dongshan's teaching. And in the end, he became convinced, and the master went there. So when he arrived, Dongshan asked him, where are you from? This is always a leading question. Where are you from? And the master answered, I come from Cui Wei. Dongshan asked, what does Cui Wei say to his followers?

[04:26]

The master said, Cui Wei was making an offering to the Arhats. And I asked, you are making offerings to the Arhats, but do you think they'll come to accept the offering? This is very reminiscent of Do you remember this? When Gengshan visited Matsu, when he visited... Matsu. His Chinese name is... Now, Matsu's name, Chinese name is Maso. No, Maso is Japanese.

[05:31]

This is Matsu, that's right. So, you're right. Matsu, Master Ma. So, when Tungshan went to visit Master Ma, He asked, Master Ma was making a memorial ceremony for his teacher. And he asked this question, do you think that we're going to make this offering? Do you think that he'll come? And Tungshan said, if he has a companion, he'll come. So this is the same question. So he says, the master says, Tsui Wei was making an offering to the arhats. And I asked, are you making offerings to the arhats? You are making offerings to the arhats, but do you think that they will come to accept the offering?

[06:32]

And Tsui Wei asked, what do you eat every day? Dong Shan said, did he really say that? And the master said, Then he asked, what is your name? And that's where we come into the case. What is your name? And the master replied, Daoyin. And Dongshan said, say it from beyond. And the master said, if I speak from beyond, I cannot say that I am Daoyin. Dongshan said, that's the same answer I gave when I was with Yunyin. So here, you know, there are a lot of similarities between Ungo and Tozan. Tozan sees a kind of parallel between what happened in his life and Ungo's life.

[07:33]

And I think he sees that as somewhat auspicious. And he says, the same thing's happening to you that's happened to me. Sometimes when the teacher gives dharma transmission, they sometimes like to give it to someone that's very much like them, because there's this feeling of closeness, feeling of being one with each other. So sometimes a teacher makes a mistake of giving dharma transmission to someone who looks like them. The thing is, she didn't get me down. She said, I look too much like him. So, do you understand?

[08:38]

What do you think that he meant by, what do you eat every day? Okay, so the master was awakened when he saw the Dung River, and he discussed it with Dungshan. Dungshan said, thanks to you, my way will spread endlessly.

[09:41]

That's an interesting statement because it's kind of an isolated statement. Like the master was awakened when he saw the Dung River. We know that Dungshan was awakened when he saw his reflection in the stream. There's probably a river that flows around Dung Mountain, where Dungshan was from when he taught. He saw the river as itself. He saw the river as himself, yeah. Yeah. Something beyond reflection. Right. So here, Ungo, the master Ungo, was awakened when he saw the Dung River, and he discussed it with Dung Chan.

[10:52]

So, what do you think that means, given what you've said? Mr. Clark, you said, what do you think that means that I'm not clear? Oh, that Mungo was enlightened when he saw the Dung River. I think it's continuing the theme of the similarity of their experience. Seems to be continuing the theme of similarity. Can I go back to ask, what are our hearts? First grade. Arhats are Buddhist disciples. Arhat literally means someone who is worthy of an offering. So the monks who were Buddhist disciples who actually gained enlightenment.

[11:58]

We talk about 16 arhats who were Buddha's closest disciples. And Buddha himself was an arhat. And each one of these 16 arhats had some quality, that exemplary quality. And then we talk about the 500 arhats who were their followers, which means innumerable arhats. I believe that he is, you know, the Buddha within, that he's referring to, you know, you are, you know, when the arhats come, you are, you're here, right? Yes. It's like, where do you be? Never mind the arhats. Yes? Well, back to the river question. The whole thing about a river, aside from that it's repeating, you know, a motive, is that

[13:04]

that when you look at a river, it's moving continuously, and it's there, but it's always going away. And even if you look for your reflection, your reflection may be there, but what it's on, it's always moving away and connected to everything else, so that it all goes together. And there's no need, sort of as a literary device, to describe that again in a way if you've already done it with Dongshan. Just what comes to mind, the parallel with Dongshan is there, but somehow when he says, Master was awakened when he saw the to me it means when he met Deng Xiang, that Deng Xiang's dharma was always flowing and never stationary.

[14:21]

Well, I wouldn't call it a pun, but an association. I think they're associated. But maybe not. In the translation you have, Tozan has a stream, and Ugudogyo has In Clary's translation, they're both rivers. And I don't know whether the word... River or stream, it doesn't matter. Actually, the character is the same for a stream and river. I like to think of the river as like a teaching device. It appears as a single thing, an entity. Well, we can speculate about rivers.

[16:18]

I think it's a great metaphor. But river also is still and moving at the same time. River has a shape, and you point to the river and you see the shape of the river, which seems to be somewhat constant. but yet the river itself is continually flowing. So you can use it as a metaphor for stillness in motion, simultaneous stillness in motion. So this is It says he was awakened when he saw the Dung River, so it could either be a river, some natural phenomenon called a river, or it could be Dungshan himself.

[17:28]

I think it's a little ambiguous, which is okay. So Dongshan recognized him very clearly as his successor. And he says, thanks to you, my way will spread endlessly. Not only that, but once he asked the master, Ungo, I hear that the great priest Su was born in Japan and became the emperor. Is that correct? This is kind of legend or something that he had heard. There's a footnote there. Su Daxiang is Nanwei Hui Su, or Great Master Su. He was also the second ancestor of the new Tiantai school of Chinese Buddhism. In those days, in the 6th century, there were

[18:35]

There was an ancestor of both a Zen school and a Tendai school. Tendai. So, I hear that the great priest Su was born in Japan and became the emperor. Is that correct? The master answered, if you're talking about great priest Su, he wouldn't even become a Buddha, let alone an emperor. And Dongshan thought that this was very nice. He said, ah, that's pretty good. Is that just showing us that irreverence is part of this school? It's not irreverence. It's like going beyond Buddha. What do you think he means by that?

[19:51]

It has to do with form. It has to do with form. If we didn't take any form, even Buddha's form, how could we even imagine carrying to the end, conform to being an ever formlessness person? So one day, Dungshan asked, where have you been? And the master Ungo said, I've been out walking in the mountains. And Dungshan asked, what mountain is fit to live on? The master replied, what mountain is not fit to live on? In that case, said Dungshan, you've taken over the entire country.

[20:52]

The master said, no, I haven't. I like to be contrary. And Dongshan said, if that is so, have you found an entry path? And the master said, there is no path. Dongshan said, if there is no path, how could you meet me? And the master replied, if there were a path, we never would have met. Dongshan said, Hereafter, not 1,000, not even 10,000 people will be able to restrain this fellow. There's the koan of Hyakujo sitting on Mount Dayu-ho. The monk asks him, what is the most wonderful thing?

[21:56]

And the architecture says, just sitting on Mount Taiyuho, eating rice. So this Mount Taiyuho is no special place, right? It kind of has that flavor of you've taken over the entire country. It means any place you are is the right place to be. You can set up shop anywhere. So the Master was accompanying Dung-Shan. No. Yes. But isn't he... then how come he says, no, I have to What mountain is not fit to live on?

[23:03]

In that case, said Dongshan, you've taken over the entire country. The master said, no, I haven't. Dongshan said, if that is so, have you found an entry path? The master said, there is no path. Dongshan said, if there is no path, how would you meet me? And the master replied, if there were a path, we would never have met. So what do you think he means by, no, I haven't? Well, I think that Donshon is saying, in effect, so everything is one, is it? whole country.

[24:08]

Well, taking over the whole country, I think, refers to wherever you stand, you don't fail to cover the ground. In this case, he's pointing to taking over the whole country as a kind of indicative. Not as you're at home wherever you are, but more like, well, you're sort of projecting yourself. There's a way of seeing as an extension of the paragraph before, kind of elaborating on the question of physician and not taking a physician.

[25:33]

Especially I get an echo from the idea of taking over the whole country There's that, but I sort of felt like this paragraph is, the last paragraph is the form of emptiness paragraph, and this paragraph is the non-discrimination paragraph. It is like pushing at, you know, line after line, the dialogue about non-discrimination. You know, it's like, you've taken over the entire country, could be the end. But Ongo says, no, it's not the end. He goes even further. He pushes it even further. Isn't that a kind of statement of humility?

[26:38]

Yeah, it's a kind of... It's like Dongshan says, you could take over the whole country. Right. He's taken over the whole country. Right. He says, no, I haven't. It also has a kind of feeling like one's trying to see if the way has a particular form or shape, and the other one keeps saying no. It keeps taking the boundaries of the question away, or the boundaries of what the question implies. That's right. So if you say, you've taken over the whole country, that's just a great statement. has to go beyond that. Yeah, it's a little bit like that.

[27:42]

When he's with Rui Jing, and Rui Jing wants to confirm him, he says, wait a minute, not so fast. It has that flavor, actually. So, it kind of has the flavor of You think that I'm okay, but I want you to test me further. It's pretty good. Don't be too sure. So he keeps pushing and pushing. So the master was accompanying Dongshan. And as they were crossing a stream, Dongshan asked, Is the water deep or shallow? They really get a lot out of water. Dungshan asks, is the water deep or shallow? That's quite a question.

[28:43]

How about you, Master?" And Dongshan said, it's not dry. He told the Master, well, that's the end of that little story. If you've ever read any of the collective sayings of any of these old teachers, you'll find that they're arranged just like that, one story after another. with no commentary particularly, but just each one is just one dialogue after another. And each one is a kind of a koan. Or you can see it as a koan. So what do you think is going on there? Is the water deep or shallow? It's not wet. So he's not answering the question according to the way it's asked, but he's saying, he's speaking from a different position.

[30:11]

So this is often the case when the teacher and the disciple are speaking together, or when someone asks a question, the response is from a different level. And people say, that's not the question so-and-so asked. You misunderstood. People say that. But actually, the response comes from a different level. So here, is the water deep or shallow? That's a great question. What does he mean exactly? And the master answered, it's not wet. It has no measurement. Don't compare. Maybe that's... Isn't it like asking a koan, just a one phrase koan, which would be either one or the other or neither?

[31:17]

Which is it? You know, this is a kind of dualistic question, isn't it? Is the water deep or shallow? It's like that children's game. There's yes, no, or in the barrel. Well, in the barrel means you lose your clothes or what? You get wet. You get dumped in the barrel. And it is wet. I wonder what the original words in Chinese were, because it kind of occurs to me after mulling this around, that the it, in it's not wet, may not be referring to the water, and is the water deep or shallow? Right, so it, I think so.

[32:24]

I think the word it goes beyond water, or water here means, essential nature. That's what water means. When he asked this question, he's not talking about, is this particular H2O deep or shallow? He's saying, is the water deep or shallow? He's putting something out there. But it's even wilder, because they're already in the middle. Yes, it will. But isn't that true, that we're in the middle of whatever it is we're asking? That's right, we're always in the middle of the stream, with whatever we're asking.

[33:25]

One thing I love about these stories is, it's like, as humans we need words and pictures. very vehicle we need to use to traverse this path, they throw the words away as quickly as it comes out of our lips. So what's always being talked about is not the thing that's being talked about. I think so.

[34:26]

I think it fits with that reflection. Maybe just a minor. Iron for me was the whole idea that this is supposed to be a lineage, and the feeling I have is not linear at all. And so I feel like without watering it down, it does feel like even variation constantly. Even though we're talking about water here, it feels like it's equal to light. This whole thing of going down one after another, it feels like I'm feeling like these people are the same. It's almost like taking off one mask and seeing the same person. In this story, it's just so obvious. It's very obvious in the story that the same and that each one is unique. That's right, they don't look alike, they don't act alike, and each one has their own way. But that's right.

[35:32]

The non-linear lineage. But lines are crazily wiggly. You've taken over the whole country. Oh, you're so marvelous, you know. The Church began to fall ill to the sin of pride. But, of course, the Master's not going for it at all. Well, that's true too, you know. Even though the student comes up with the right answer, the teacher says, ah, you could, what? So the disciple has to know, he has to realize or have a firm conviction.

[36:35]

I missed last week's, but for some reason it seems funny that Lungpa Daya was being called the master of the stories. As I explained before, in these stories, the young disciple is always called the master. That's the way they address the disciple. Because the disciple eventually is the master. And so they pay that respectful, given that respectful title, even when he's young, even when he's 13, as a respectful type. So that's why sometimes you get a little mixed up in who, who? So I usually say the name when I say the master, so as you don't get confused.

[37:35]

So is the water deep or shallow? And the master answered, it is not wet. And Dungshan said, you coarse fellow. And the master said, master's unko, said, how about you, master? How about you, Tozan? And Dungshan said, it's not dry. It's not wet. It's not dry. They're not saying. They're very careful not to fall into the duality. This is kind of, you know, he's presenting him with a dualistic problem. And they're both avoiding falling into duality about this problem. So one says, it's not wet. The other one says, it's not dry. But they're not talking about deep and shallow anymore.

[38:46]

Yes? In the first exchange, when Doshan says, is it deep or shallow? And Ango said, it's not wet. I mean, it seems like he's sort of demonstrating a transcendence of logical choices. Well, he's demonstrating a transcendence of Not getting caught in duality. Yeah, okay. In fact, Dongshan set up the trap and gave him both possible answers. And so he didn't get caught by that. And he said, it's not white. But then Dongshan says, it's not dry. He didn't say, it's not purple. Right, right. So he was, as long as you're in the knot, you're okay. Everything is expressed in the negative. As soon as you say, oh, it's like this, then it becomes... Game over.

[39:51]

What? Game over. Game over, yeah. So that's why the Heart Searcher is always expressing, not this, [...] not this. Sounds negative, but the positive is expressed within the negative. Well, there's a couple of positive statements in the Heart Sutra. Yeah, yeah. Be careful. I don't know if this is splitting hairs, but how about you, Master, and Dungsang said, not dry. He didn't say, it's not dry. It might be that... Well, I know, okay, but let me just finish my point. That maybe... it's not wet, is transcending both the logical deep and shallow, the dichotomy of deep and shallow, and that it points to it, the essential nature. And then how about you, Master? And then, Dungsang is saying something about himself, the essential nature, being him, not dry.

[40:59]

Like taking it one more going beyond. Like, I'm not it, but it is me. Well, I think that whether he's saying that directly or not, that certainly is included. You can say a lot of things. You can make various references, whether or not that's the main point. In the query translation, I think it's kind of cute that the young, I mean, it's kind of a straightforward answer, as well as a clever answer.

[42:29]

Well, it's not a clever, exactly. It looks clever, but we hope it's not clever. And also, it's an exchange which comes from the same mind. Because it's not like, you know, they're not thinking about it and pondering it, you know. It just comes immediately up without thinking or without discriminative thinking. So it's very fresh and expressive. I'm just wondering about the danger of associating to other things. It's not within the story, but as we were talking about young master and teacher, I was associating spontaneously to other poems and other thoughts.

[43:33]

And I was wondering how dangerous that was, whether I was breaking I mean, it felt like the same story, exactly, and it was just a line that popped in, but then I was a little apprehensive. Well, it's okay, because actually, this is what, when you are familiar with Zen literature, you find that the associations abound. Well, it was actually not officially Zen literature, but it was the same. And so I just didn't want to go off on that track. You're right. So anyway, we have to stick to what we're doing. Also, we can talk about it, but there's a certain point at which you have to stop explaining. Otherwise, you kind of explain it all away. And if, in fact, it's coming from the same mind, so the essence is the same, the expression will be different.

[44:44]

So we might gravitate toward the student who puts a shoe on top of their head and walks off thinking that their answer is better than someone who verbalized an answer. But the answers might actually have the same quality and be verified by a teacher. Well, everyone's response has to be different. Right. Otherwise, it's not your own response. That's the whole thing. You can't give someone else's response. The response has to come from you. And it will, of course, be unique. So this is what their dialogue was. Our dialogue has to be something else. according to our circumstances. So then Ungo, oh no.

[45:46]

So I said, then he told the master, so Dongshan must be he. Dongshan told the master, Nanjuan is the monk. What scripture he was reading? And the monk answered that it was the sutra on Maitreya, Maitreya's appearance in the world. There's a sutra that talks about Maitreya's appearance in the world. And for those of you who may not know who Maitreya is, I think I talked about it, though, a couple of weeks ago. Nachwan asked, well, when will Maitreya appear? And the monk answered, right now he is in the celestial realm, and he will appear in the future. So Maitreya is the Buddha who is to appear in the future. So Maitreya is like Messiah, actually. It's interesting, the words are very close. And Maitri means love, loving kindness.

[46:50]

So this is the Buddha whose era will usher in the millennium of loving kindness, which everyone has been waiting for. He said, there is no Maitreya, either in the celestial realm or on the earth. So the master asked Dungshan, if there is no Maitreya, either in the celestial realm or on earth, what does the name mean? Hearing this, Dungshan's seat quaked. And he said, Daoying, once when I was with Yunyan, I asked a question and the hearth quaked. Today, I was asked a question and my whole body is dripping with sweat. There was no difference in the questions and answers between master and disciple. In the whole community, no one could stand shoulder to shoulder as he goes with Yunchu.

[47:52]

as an example of how Ungo, you know, even made a Dungshan quake. This is a good answer. There's no Maitreya either in the celestial realm or on the earth. So what Maitreya are we talking about? People expect some being to come and do something, which I think is a big mistake. with their false messiahs and really had people, you know, on the edge. And then they always did something like become Muslim. The last of the great messiahs, when he was just at the apex of leading everyone to the promised land, became a Muslim.

[49:08]

But, I mean, he was forced to do it, you know, but he did it. It was interesting. We like his help. Each one of us has Maitreya nature, actually. I think that we have to realize that Maitreya is here and each one of us has to usher in our Buddha realm of loving kindness and bring that to the world. I don't think any one person does that. In fact, each one of us has that potential and that ability. And just in the same way, who is Buddha? Well, who is Maitreya? He's saying, well, you cover the whole mountain, you're everywhere.

[50:39]

And Vimalaya says, no, that's not so. And he says, well, then there must be a path. He says, well, no, basically. There was a path, but I couldn't reach it, so it's like zero. And this one, it's the other way. It's the opposite. He's trying to say, well, there's no Maitreya, right? Well, yes. If there is no Maitreya, then what does the word mean? That's right. What does it mean? It's like, it seems like Dongshan is offering him neither yes nor no.

[52:14]

And Ango is saying, no, not neither yes nor no. Because, how do you negate a total negation? It's like, he's sort of Yes. So Dongshan can't answer him. So he starts to shake. I mean, I'm not saying... Well, you have to remember that Dungshan doesn't have any view here, because this is presented as a story between two other people.

[53:27]

Right? Right. Presented as a story between two other people. So, see... Oh, Nanchuan... He told the master, Nanchuan has to monk. So this is a story about Nanchuan and a monk, two other people. What scripture he was reading? And the monk answered that it was the sutra on Maitreya's appearance in the world. So Nanchuan asked, well, when will Maitreya appear? He's asking the monk, though. He was not even here, right? When will Maitreya appear? So that's a good question, a kind of koan. It's actually, he's asking it as a koan. When will Maitreya appear? What will the monk do? So the monk Esther answered, right now he is in the celestial realm and he will appear in the future. So that's not a good answer. That's like a storybook answer. So Nachuan said, there is no Maitreya, either in the celestial realm or on earth.

[54:34]

And he doesn't mean that either. He means, he means this is some idea you've got. Right? Who is the real Maitreya? What is the real Maitreya? That's his question to the monk. But he says that. But he's very radical. He says, there is no Maitreya. What Maitreya do you mean? And the monk says, what? But it says in the scriptures. So the monk just has it as an idea. He's trying to get the monk to produce something. So then Ungo asked Tungshan, if there is no Maitreya, it's kind of a naive question, if there is no Maitreya either in the celestial realm or on earth, what does the name mean? But he gives Tozan a koan. And then Tozan accepts it as a koan.

[55:41]

and starts dripping with sweat because the koan really grabs him. So, but it doesn't say what happens after that, it just says, it's just expressing, it stops where Tozan Well, in this translation it says, Tozan's seat rocked when he heard this. Yes. So, I mean, isn't it... I mean, you do get that. Well, yeah, it says that here, too. That's what I say. Yeah, that's right. His seat rocked and he drifted, you know. But that's kind of... an elaboration too. So anyway, so he's bringing out the fact that they really see, they're on the same level.

[56:47]

So later, the master, Ungo, built a hut on Mount Sanfeng, Sanfeng, and he did not come to the monastery for 10 days. So he became a kind of hermit. And Doshan asked him, why don't you join, why don't you come here and eat these days? He doesn't like the fact that he's gone out to become a hermit. He says, how come you're not coming to dinner? I haven't seen you around for a while. And the master answered, every day a spirit brings offerings. I have to tell you this. Every day a spirit brings offerings. And Dongshan said, I thought you were an enlightened man, but you still have these kinds of views. Come tonight and visit me. That night, Yunchu or Ungo went and Dongshan called, oh, hermit Daoying. And the master replied. And Dongshan said, without thinking of good, without thinking of evil, what is it?

[57:49]

The master returned to his hermitage and sat silently in Zazen. After this, the spirit came, but could not see him. And after three days, the spirit left. There are various stories like this. There's a story about, I can't remember who it was exactly, but this celestial bodhisattva who was meditating for aeons, long periods of time, and the devas were so impressed with him, they came and they scattered flowers, they rained flowers down on him. But the problem is that the flower is stuck to this rope. And it became evident that because there was still something that the flower should have fallen off the rope, but the flower is stuck to the rope. So there's this kind of feeling here too, you know,

[58:54]

There's still something. He thought, well, I'm really free of everything. But yet this spirit comes around to feed him. And so when Dongshan finds this out, he says, well, come on. And then he asks him this question, which is the same question that the sixth ancestor asked of his pursuer, which I'll tell you about, or some of you know about. So this whole story has a lot of complicated, a lot of stuff going on in it, actually. It's a little bit, refers a little bit to the story of the celestials showering flowers down on the Bodhisattva because they see him. If he had really been well gone, they wouldn't even have seen him.

[59:59]

And so Dongshan says, well, come on over. And then he asks him this question. What is your original face before your, without thinking good or evil, what is it? And so then he went over and did Zazen. And when he did Zazen, there wasn't anything for the devas to see. There was nobody there for them to leave offerings for. That's the feeling. And when the Huineng, Daikan Eino, was leaving the monastery in the middle of the night, A lot of people started pursuing him from the monastery. They go, this little guy, what? So they started pursuing him. And one man named Hui Ming caught up with him.

[61:06]

And Eino was just a young guy, young fellow. And he put the robe and the bowl on a rock. And he said, the robe and the bowl are just And even if you take them, they won't mean anything for you. But Lee Ming went over and tried to pick them up, and he couldn't pick them up, either because they were too heavy. But what does too heavy mean, right? So he started to sweat all over, and he realized that they really didn't belong to him, and even if he took them, They weren't his. So he made obeisance to Eino, and he said, please teach me. And Eino said, OK, let's sit down. They sat down. He said, now cross your legs. And he said, without thinking good or bad, what is your original face at this moment?

[62:11]

And Huy Nguyen was enlightened. Same question. Without thinking good, without thinking evil, what is it? So it has both of these stories that are associated with this. So once Dungshan asked the master, what are you doing? The master said, I'm making bean paste. Dungshan asked, how much salt are you using? The Master said, oh, I added a little. Darshan asked, how does it taste? And the Master said, it will do. Who's got the camera out there when the airplane is in mid-air, you know, when the mountain climber's on top of the mountain struggling, you know?

[63:28]

And there's this guy taking a picture, standing out in space, you know? Who listens to these conversations? Anyway, that's not for us to decide. But this is very subtle. exchange. I'm making bean paste. Well, the thing is, what is idle talk? Right. In the eight awarenesses of enlightened persons, which according to one Mahayana tradition was the last words of the Buddha, the last admonitions, and was also Dogen's last commentary.

[64:46]

He has the eight admonitions. the characteristics of an enlightened person. And the last, the eighth one, is no idle talk. But when you, for a realized person, even idle talk has great meaning. So, This is a kind of example of idle, you know, ordinary idle product, which has very deep meaning. Because it's not idle. Seems idle. What are you doing? Oh, I'm making bean paste. How much salt are you using? Oh, I added a little.

[65:48]

How does it taste? The everyday talk of rocks. Another time, Dongshan asked him, if someone without Buddha nature commits the five unpardonable sins, how can he take care of his parents? So the five unpardonable sins are like killing a mother, killing your father, harming a Buddha, killing an arhat, and causing dissension in the sangha. Those are the five horrible acts, as they're called. And so he says, how can one, if someone without Buddha nature, is like Chantaka. Did I talk about this, Chantaka, before?

[66:50]

Chantaka is like some, You know, there was always this, in the history of Buddhism, is there someone who doesn't have Buddha nature? Are there beings who don't have Buddha nature? And this controversy kind of got stopped when they discovered that in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra of Mahayana, it said all beings without exception have Buddha nature. And Dogen changed it to, all beings are buddha nature. And so, ichantika is someone who has no buddha nature. But bodhisattva is usually called a great ichantika. Now, what's that word again? Ichantika. Someone without buddha nature. I? Does it start with an I? It starts with an E. Yeah, it starts with an I. Well, there was that question.

[67:59]

There was always that question. Oh, but that's not a feeling now. You're just saying this is what a theory was at that time. No, I say there's always been that question. How... And then... But I'm really sure that that really astounds me. Well, it's like the devil, isn't it? I mean, you know... Yeah, kind of like... You've got to create somebody that doesn't have... you think is the ultimate attribute. Or there are some people who are so evil that you wonder. But as I said, the controversy kind of stopped when everyone accepted in the Parinirvana Sutra it said all sentient beings without exception But Bodhisattva is called a great ecchantika, similar with no buddha nature.

[69:07]

But no buddha nature is also a koan, just like The converse of the Christian idea that the devil is a fallen angel. What is this? Well, then it's the Bodhisattva is the great Chantaka. It's like just flipping the coin over. Kind of like... Isn't the distinguishing characteristic of a Bodhisattva that they turn away from enlightenment in order to save all beings? They don't enter nirvana. not in their final nirvana. They keep being reborn back into various realms. Well, so I was just wondering, when they say the great achantika, you know, a bodhisattva has no buddha nature, is that just some way of saying that they don't, they have not entered nirvana, or they have not chosen non-duality?

[70:17]

Well, it's not that they haven't They have chosen non-duality, but they're not escaping. They're not stopping the process completely. Yeah, that's right. So, you know, to strive to save all sentient beings is... They're already falling off before you can grab them, right? That's right. So it has to have a different kind of meaning. You cannot take these things literally.

[71:21]

If you read the Bible literally, you'll fall into hell. If you say that he would have Buddha nature, that's defining something, some definition. Well, it's a koan. If you say bodhisattvas have no Buddha nature, that's a koan. Just like dog has no Buddha nature. Do not take it literally. Isn't it somewhat like thinking, that there's some parallel. But we also have to be able to say, this, this, this. So it's OK to say, not this, not this, as long as not this is also this.

[72:33]

So, he says, Dungsan asked him, if someone without buddha nature, the great ecchantika, commits the five unpardonable sins, how can that person take care of their parents? And the master replied, he observes filial piety for the first time then. when he kills his, does one of these things. So, do not take this literally. down to the very pits of life.

[73:40]

Well, who is the true parent? Who is the true Buddha? Who is the true Buddhist Aham? And what is the true Sangha? You know, we always say, I mean it's said, in order to proceed, you have to kill the Buddha. But that doesn't mean you should kill anybody. It doesn't mean that literally. But it has meaning. It means you should kill your notion. Don't put something ahead on top of your own. You have to find the parent here. You have to find the Buddha here. So please take care of your parents.

[75:17]

It really doesn't have to do with literally. But he says at that point, that's true filial piety. So in a sense it means becoming self-reliant and independent. It really means becoming independent. We say, don't rely on anything.

[76:18]

You have to get to the point where you don't rely on anything. But then, when you get to the point where you don't rely on anything, you realize that you rely on everything. Because there's no you without everything else. At the same time, we have to be completely independent. So then here's Dungshan's taisho. It's getting late. He says, after the master met Cui Wei, he studied with Dungshan and was the elder Dharma brother of Cao Shan. Cao Shan is the more famous disciple of Dungshan. who helped Deng Shan, or developed Deng Shan's five positions, which I won't go into now.

[77:29]

We studied that last year. And Cao Shan is more well-known, actually, than Ungo Doyu. But Ungo was the elder brother of Cao Shan. And through the above questions and answers, the doubts of master and disciple were completely settled. Dungshan predicted, thanks to you, my dharma will continue endlessly into the future. His words were not meaningless, for his dharma has been passed on generation after generation down to today. Truly, the waters of Mount Dung have flowed onward and continue to bubble and sparkle today, passed on in the school that has preserved the purity of Dungshan's teaching. Its source has not dried up even now, and it remains cool and clear. When Yunchu asked the question, he put his great functioning into motion.

[78:36]

As a consequence, not only did Dongshan seep rock, his whole body dripped with sweat, something which is rare now or in the past. However, that refers to that question about Maitreya. However, since Yunchu lived in a hut on San Feng and received food offerings from the spirit, Dongshan said, I thought you were an enlightened man, but you still have these kinds of views. That night, he summoned Yunchu and called, oh, Hermit Daoying, and Yunchu answered, The one who answered was the one who should not take food from a spirit. To settle it, Dungsan said, without thinking good or evil, what is it? When you arrive in this realm fully and see it like this, spirits have no way to spread flowers. I explained that. And demons and outsiders secretly seeking you cannot find you.

[79:38]

On such an occasion, even the Buddhas and ancestors are resentful. Even the eye of a Buddha cannot spy on you. When Yunchu experienced it in this way, he made bean paste and added just enough salt, self-reliant and sufficiently capable by himself. So that's the meaning of that story of the bean paste, you know. Oh, I put some in. Never stop questioning me. Like a kid, you know, and his parents. Leave me alone. Stop questioning me. I'm a defendant, even though he's not. Therefore, he who lacks the Buddha nature kills father, kills mother, kills Buddha, kills ancestors, committing the five unpardonable sins over and over. There is no thought of such a time of reverence toward parents. Trying to get Yunchu to be intimately aware of this realm, Dongshan asked, how can he care for his parents?

[80:41]

And Yunchu replied, He cares for his parents for the first time then." So, Shaun said the same thing. Well, I think that what you said, you know, you really appreciate your parents, really appreciate all the Buddhas at some point, when you completely resolve your problems. When Yunchu entered the ancestor's room at the top, as the top candidate in the transmission, and received the Dharma intact, Dongshan made a point of asking him, what is your name? This is in the meeting between master and disciple, you don't proceed on the basis of former circumstances. In other words, There's no past.

[81:43]

It's like right now. What is your name? Who are you? You must realize that Dongshan knew the master's name, but he had a reason for asking this. The master answered, Daoying. Even if asked over and over in the countless ways, it would still have to be Daoying. He made no excuses, Even though Deng Xia did not deny such a notion, still, in order to get him to say whether or not he had the capacity to pass through barriers and escape limitations, he asked, say it from beyond. I mean, often, in these stories, when the teacher asks the disciple, what's your name? You don't say, oh, my, I'm Joe. You have to say something.

[82:44]

That's like, who are you? You have to present something beyond. But to say your name, Yunchu, can also be something said from beyond. So he made no excuses. Even though Dungshan did not deny such a notion, still, in order to get him to say whether or not he had the capacity to pass through barriers and escape limitations, he asked, say it from beyond. The master already lacked the six senses and the seven forms of consciousness. To say he lacked them doesn't mean that he didn't have them. It just meant that he was beyond those. He was like someone whose face was missing, or like a straw dog, or a wooden man, or a stone woman.

[83:45]

So he said, if I say it from beyond, then I cannot say that I am Tao Ye. It is extremely difficult to reach this realm. If a student has not reached this realm, he lacks the power to proceed. he will still be confused by false views. Because Yunchu guarded this realm carefully, the two of them had this dialogue about the person utterly lacking the Buddha nature. There was no violation of Dongshan's teaching. If you monks become fully aware in awakening, you will be true patro laypeople who have completely resolved the one great matter. And here is the verse. What can I say today so that you will fully understand this story? And after a pause, he said, never has it been bound to names and forms. How can you speak of it as beyond or relative or deep or shallow? Dogen has a fascicle in the Shobo-Genzo called busho, or buddha nature.

[85:17]

And he really goes into having no buddha nature. So sometime we should study this fascicle, no buddha nature. Next time, we will go study Tien Tung Lu Jing. This is Dogen's teacher, on page 223, the 50th ancestor. 223 of this book, Tien Tung Rui Jin, spelled in our lineage we call it Tendon Yojo.

[86:46]

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