Well, nothing I have to say will be as dramatic as the weather. Her perception is that I'm a little bit preoccupied with age and health. And she wondered if I would talk about it. And so I said yes, but I haven't really had much time to think about it. You can't hear me. I haven't had much time to think about it. Is that better? Yeah. So I'll wander around it. But I want to say that I was prepared to leave this morning.

[01:03]

And after some telephone calls, it didn't seem like a good idea to go up the road. And then it also didn't seem like a good idea to be out here because the whole coast is inundated with the storm. And it seems like there's a three-hour delay in getting into San Francisco. So I don't want to sit in my car. It's a pretty good place to be. And I'm reconciled to staying here until it's time to leave. And I don't know when that's going to be, actually. So I'm giving myself the luxury of preparing my lectures for Sashim, which I wouldn't have time to do given, then I would go up there and go right into this Togobetsu Sushin and then come right back.

[02:06]

So, I don't often have that luxury. Often I just give lectures on the wing and think about them little bits at a time during the day and then an hour before it's time, I concentrate really hard And it's do or die. So I kind of like that, actually. So I'm going to actually take the time to, while I'm here, to work on my session lectures. Well, my way of practice, I started practicing in 1964. when I was 35, and Suzuki Roshi taught me to, whatever happens, just keep going.

[03:10]

That was, I think the main thing I learned from him was, just keep going, just go straight ahead, no matter what. And that's always been my way of practice, my life. So when, you know, I started out 35 and now it's been 30 years that I've been practicing, 31, and I seem to be getting older. But to me it's just all the same. You know, I just go ahead. I just go practice, you know. And I've always had good health, you know, when I was I don't know if I'm repeating myself, but I never worried about my health, you know. I never had a... I didn't have a cavity until I was 40. And I had my first child when I was 52. What? Just one. But you never know.

[04:15]

So, you know, every time you get to a decade, it has, you know, some significance. I remember 21, you know, that was very significant for me. I was out of the service when I was 20. I'd already been in the service now by the time I was 20. And then, so even though I went into bars, you know, Sir has been always going to bars. Oh, I didn't want to particularly. Every time I drank anything, I'd get sick. So I never was addicted to alcohol. But it wasn't until, you know, I was out and in the world later that I was old enough to do that. So I always felt I was kind of a late bloomer. You know, I always had a kind of youthfulness all through my 20s and 30s. And I always thought that... I remember one time I was hitchhiking and a guy picked me up and he asked me how old I was, you know, and I was 15 or 12 or something.

[05:38]

He said, really? You're going to be very young all your life. And I thought, yeah, that's probably right. So I always felt that way. I always felt that I would live to be 120. You do when you're young, you know. And it's a little bit of a disappointment later on when you realize that you're mortal. So, I remember being, I almost remember, 30 was, you know, when you get to be 30, that's very significant. It's a change in your life, you know. you think you're going to be more settled or something, but I wasn't settled until I was... I really wasn't settled. I don't think I ever was. And so starting practice at 35, when I started practicing, I said, this is it, because I've been looking for, you know, practice, some kind of practice that was

[06:50]

the real thing, the thing that I felt was right for me. And I said, I better do this. Otherwise, this is my last chance. I better really do it. And so that's what I did. I just continued to practice. So 40 and then 50 was a kind of milestone, I think. But I can't remember. Someone else remembers my 50th birthday, but I don't. It was a long time ago. And my 60th birthday, We had a big party at Berkley's Innville. And so I think at 60 I started to feel, I must be getting older. People look at you and they say, you're getting older. But I don't particularly feel getting older. But in the last couple of years, my big toes are starting to hurt.

[07:54]

And it's not the gout. Your gout is something that you, a kind of disease that's felt in your big toe. It's just maybe a little arthritis or something. I think in the course of the last five or ten years, I've had a little bit of arthritis in my fingers and in my elbows, but as soon as I started to exercise, it went away. So even though I had, you know, it's gone. I have these little Chinese balls, you know, that you roll. That's very helpful. Even though I don't use them, I keep them on my desk. But exercise really helps. I started using heavy hands when Robert Weidel was the director here. He turned me on to heavy hands, and that's really very aerobic, kind of walking, walking with these heavy hands. And that's been a wonderful, best exercise for me.

[09:11]

But I didn't exercise, I knew I had to exercise, but I didn't exercise consistently, you know, and I let it go for a long time. And then I got my bicycle, you know, and bicycle is great, you know, riding that. But it wasn't until just recently, last year, at the end of last year, that I found out that the doctor said I had slight case of diabetes too, I think I told you about this. It's not diabetes in which there is no insulin from the pancreas, it's that the insulin is not assimilated, the sugars are not assimilated, and it's very common in old age. But I didn't know, I didn't feel any symptoms, you know, so But as soon as I started taking this little pill, I stopped falling asleep in meetings. It's a magic pill to keep you from falling asleep in meetings.

[10:17]

And that was kind of a revelation to me about my condition. So I take this little pill every day, but the way to control this is through exercise and diet. So diet means not indulging in simple sugars. Simple sugars meaning juices and candy and any kind of simple sugar. Complex carbohydrates, I don't want to talk about health, but complex carbohydrates are much better. as you probably all know. I didn't know all this until this happened, but I'm sure everybody else knows it. And so I've been concentrating on eating complex carbohydrates and not... I used to drink, you know, a quart of orange juice every day. And that's just, you know, almost pure sugar.

[11:22]

So I stopped doing all those things a lot. But it's hard to just stop doing something, you know. So gradually I've been stopping. And I find myself eating things that I shouldn't eat, but can't help it. But I know that little by little I'll stop doing it. And fats. Fats are not good for you, as everybody knows. And we have a pretty high-fat diet here. I didn't realize, I didn't think about that, until this happened. And as soon as this happened, I started looking at what I eat and looking at our diets, you know. And we don't need to eat fat. It's not necessary because we get so much fat anyway. All the seeds that we eat are full of fat.

[12:26]

All the nuts that we eat are full of fat. We eat so many nuts here. We do. And there's so many people that are not dairy. I know, there's so many people that are not dairy. Well, you don't need dairy, you don't need nuts. Anyway... I'm not complaining about it. I mean, I'm not complaining about your diet. No, no. It's just always been this way. I just... I'm just talking about our, you know, it's just an observation anyway. Not a complaint. Sort of a complaint. So, when you look at the menu, or what you eat that way, then you begin to see, you know, all these foods that contain these things, you know. And then you see it's very hard to avoid eating them. So, it's okay to eat some of these things, as long as one burns them off, burns off the calories.

[13:28]

That's the main thing. As a matter of fact, you can eat whatever you want, as long as you burn off the calories. Fuck you, right? So, I got into exercise, and that's how I kind of wrecked my back, because I was very zealously exercising, and I noticed that zealously exercising, my stomach was going down, my face was getting thinner, and this is great. And then I wrecked my back over exercising. And so now the stomach is getting a little bigger. But I think my back is getting better. But it's slow. And maybe that's a sign of age. I don't know that it's slow. But I've always been a very quick healer. You know, if I cut myself, it heals right away. So I'm not sure about this.

[14:33]

I've wrecked my back a couple of times, but I've always been able to sit with it. This is the first time I have not been able to sit Zazen without a seat. It's a back support. So, I don't feel so good about that. I mean, I sat through sashays, you know, with a completely aching back, but I could do it. But this time I can't. It's just like, can't. sustained my back for very long in the Zazen posture. But I feel sure that that will pass, like everything else passed in my health. Any other health problem I've ever had has always passed. So I have that kind of confidence, even though it may not be so. I just always had a lot of confidence in my body's ability to heal itself. And I've always avoided medicines. and avoided doctors and, you know, I get a cold or something and people say, oh, take this, take this, take this.

[15:44]

I say, thank you, thank you. But even if I take it, it doesn't really make so much difference. The only thing that makes a difference is waiting it out, getting some rest and waiting it out. So I'm not a big medicine fan. And one thing that convinces me of that is that the body has its own mechanisms for healing. And if you interfere with those mechanisms, then you weaken the body's ability to do that. So I'd rather let the body struggle with it. And I think that keeps me healthy. So, seven years ago, I was minding my own business, and they asked me to, Zen Center asked me to be co-abbot of Zen Center.

[16:45]

So, I was taking care of Berkeley, nicely, and my family, and I would do practice periods at Tassajara. I was doing that before being abbot, So when they asked me to do that, I said, OK. And there was some necessity for it. And I seemed to be the person of choice. So I remember being influenced by Baker Oshie's, the way he was avid. Although there are many things that he did I didn't like. I always admired his way of being able to be aware of so much that was going on. He could hold so much in his mind of what was going on and attend to various things.

[17:48]

Thousands of details. And so I tried doing that myself. And it was a lot of fun, you know. At first, it was a lot of fun. being able to just focus on one thing at a time. You know, if you worry too much about all the things that are going on, you can't do anything. You get kind of stultified. You get a log jam. So, just by doing one thing at a time and not worrying about all the rest, I could take care of all the things that I had to take care of. And but after a while, after a couple of years, maybe after six years, I started getting tired of it. I'm having that much to do. And my family, you know, Daniel growing up and now he's 13, you know, and the older he gets, the more attention he needs.

[18:59]

And also, my wife has been very good. about letting me do Tathagata practice periods and spend a lot of time at Zen Center and meetings. So I've been feeling some need to really take care of that side of my life a lot more. And since I think I'm getting older, since I'm getting older, I realize that even though I don't feel so old, I probably don't have so much time left to do that. In some way that's going to become very clear to me. So, a couple of years ago I felt like I really wanted to pull away from Page Street. When I became abbot, Rev and I agreed that we wouldn't be abbot of any special place.

[20:01]

you know, but as it fell out, he moved to Green Gulch, became Abbot of Green Gulch, and that left me as Abbot of Page Street, and then we both took care of Tassajara. So, I would go to San Francisco a couple of times a week, and I would stay overnight, and it was good. The city center was in a shambles at that time when I started, And people were using it as a boarding house. And, you know, ex-Zen students were using it as a boarding house and complaining about how, you know, what a terrible practice we had. And so I finally kicked out all the boarders out and we started actually having a practice there. And little by little, we built up a good practice. And now you can't even get a room there. So I feel good about that, but I also felt that, you know, I was traveling, you know, a couple of times a week, back and forth to Zen Center, and, you know, an hour or so each way, and taking the BART, you know, going all the way down to the BART station, then getting on the BART, and then walking to Zen Center, or finally end up taking the bus, or driving, you know, and it gets tiresome.

[21:31]

I get tired of that. And also, since people were... My whole idea was to mature the people, the practice leaders, so that they could actually take over from me. And then I moved Blanche into the building and started to pull out. And I've been pulling out little by little for the last couple of years. And so that... I can be Abbott at Zen Center and not Abbott at Page Street. And now, my attention is to Tassajara. So, one of the problems that I... I think one of the things that makes me kind of tired is so many meetings. And I think that

[22:32]

If I continue to just go to meetings, that's the biggest ruination of my health. That's true. It's true. I'm really tired of going to meetings, so many meetings. And, but Cincinnati needs these meetings, you know, that there are a lot of young people that can go to them. And they're very smart. And they're just as, you know, smarter, smarter than I am. So sometimes I like to go to meetings, hear what people have to say, and learn something. But I'd rather just be out doing something. And even if I don't go to a lot of meetings, I still have a lot of meetings. It's true. So, see then, you know, the Abbott's terms are supposed to be seven years. I mean, four years and three years. But then I asked Rev and I to extend our avidship for two more years.

[23:38]

So I'm into my last two years. This is the beginning of my last two years. And Norman is now avid. And he's all full of fire, you know, and ideas, right? I know how... I realize now how Rev must have felt when I became avid. I have to tell him that. You know, somebody new comes with all these ideas and, you know, Rev and I had to learn how to harmonize with each other. And it took years for us to learn how to actually harmonize with each other. Rev and I are very different personalities, as you know. And there was a time when we were I wouldn't say we were enemies, but we were somewhat antagonistic to each other.

[24:39]

And I remember one time saying, you know, we agreed. Sometime you and I would just have to sit down and practice together somewhere, you know. And this is what happened. So we worked it out. And I must say that I've enjoyed this period of seven years working with Rev. and working out our relationship. And there have been some rocky places and difficult places, but by and large we learned how to harmonize with each other. And, you know, we would agree that we wouldn't go ahead and do something without consulting with the other person, you know, and getting some agreement. And mostly that worked, but not entirely. Every time I come to Tassajara you know, there are new ways to do something, which Rem has inaugurated, or initiated, while I was not, you know, without saying anything to me.

[25:44]

But it's okay, you know, I just go along with whatever you're supposed to be doing. But, so I have to be, I have to do this with Norman. Norman and I, although Norman and I are more alike, actually, we're much more alike. and seemingly compatible. But we have to go through the process of learning how to do things together. So, in a way, that's good. But in a way, I think, jeez, I'm going to have to do that with another person all over again. So, and I haven't seen him, you know, since the Mountain Seek Ceremony. So, he's, you know, going all around doing what he's doing, you know, and I'm doing what I'm doing, and we haven't really gotten together.

[26:47]

So, let's see what happens. I think it will be okay. Because actually, we like each other, and we have similar ideas, similar way of doing things. But I have to say that I will miss Reb. I'll miss working things, working with Reb because it was a great challenge and it worked, you know. So it may be that even though it's easier for me to work with Norman, in the end it may be more difficult. Because Rev and I are so different, in some way it's easier, you know? And being... and Norma and I being so close, maybe we're difficult. Like, um, music, you know?

[27:48]

Minor seconds are very close and they're very, um, disharmonious. Whereas when you have a gap, you have some harmony. So, um, I remember when Sissipi Roshi was getting older, you know, as I mentioned before, and this year I'll be 66, and he died when he was 67, so when he was 66 he was very sick and frail, very frail, and so I don't feel anything like that at all, you know, I feel like I just keep going, but then I think, Well, anything can happen at any time, right? So my wife turned 50 while I was gone from here and we had a birthday party and at her birthday party she invited a lot of old friends, people she liked, who were maybe over 45.

[29:05]

And she asked each one of them to read something or to say something about aging. She thought she was aging. Actually, she doesn't look a day over 35. Everybody else ages, but she somehow doesn't. Anyway, so she... But at her birthday party, I felt older somehow, you know. I think I was probably the oldest person there. But it was a very focused party because everybody had something to say, you know, and it had a theme. And it felt like something was really happening and not just chit-chat. I don't know what the symptoms of age are.

[30:08]

I don't know whether my symptoms are symptoms of age or symptoms of just wanting to be simpler. I don't think you have to be... I don't know. People say, well, I think you're slowing down. And I think, well, in some ways I'm slowing down and in other ways I'm speeding up. I kind of want to slow down in taking care of things like meetings and things like that, but I'm speeding up in physical activity and concentrating more on a few simple things. Daigon said, you look more tired than you did last year, and I feel that I'm less tired than I was last year.

[31:10]

So maybe I'm kidding myself. I don't know. But I don't fall asleep. I don't get this, you know, zonk feeling. So that's, to me, that's a plus. And so I think that from now on, I know I'm getting older, and I can't deny it, and I want to take care of myself. So take the time to take care of myself, and I'm doing that. I used to say that, but this time I'm actually doing that. Every day I try to walk up to the horse pasture at least that far, or most that far. Sometimes I don't get that far, but mostly I walk up there at night taking Dagon with me. He enjoys it too. So I have to take that time out to do that.

[32:12]

And those boulders are just rolling by in the creek. And if you're sitting near the creek, you can't hear me. And when my back gets better, I'll actually take more time to exercise as well. So it feels funny for me to take time for myself. It's very strange. because I feel like I'm neglecting something, you know, or I feel like I'm shirking my responsibilities if I do something for myself. So for me to come to Tassajara and take time to do something, to not follow the schedule completely, feels very strange. But I'm getting used to it, even though you probably don't even notice it. But I think from now on, I'm going to do more what I want to do, and not be so bound by what I think I'm supposed to do.

[33:33]

And I think you should all do what you think you're supposed to do. Don't follow my example. Not yet. So... I know maybe you have some questions. Yes. Okay. Well, that's a complex question, but I want to continue to do practice periods.

[34:42]

So my desire is to want to continue to do practice periods. My ability to do that may be limited. So probably I won't be able to do it consecutively, but maybe every other year or something like that would be appropriate given You know, to lead my family for that long is difficult for them. And although, you know, they're used to it and they know how to do it, you know, still, this world is so, you know, there's so much, so many problems that it's easy for kids, you know, to get, you know, to go off the deep end. And I think that my son's in a good position.

[35:44]

I don't think he's ready to go out the deep end at all. And he has lots of interests, you know, and he keeps... He's not influenced by, you know, by a lot of the things that the kids are influenced by. But there was, last year, he was... into rap music, just listening to, you know, all this rap music, you know. And it was influencing his mind a lot. And his mouth was, what was coming out of his mouth was really atrocious. And one day he was, he had a tennis lesson with, and some other kids, and some Oakland boys came in and started messing around with him. And this guy wanted his tennis racket. He said, give me your racket. And, you know, standing there, oh, you know, and the kid slugged him, you know.

[36:49]

And that was such a shock to him that he completely stopped listening to rap music. Somehow he just, you know, it just changed his whole attitude. And he realized the rap music, you know, the stuff that he'd been listening to, how that was influencing these people. And so it just changed his whole attitude. And he's back to the Beatles. So that was a good lesson for him, actually. So I think he's very wary now. I don't think he would get mixed up with people. But still, he hasn't touched the dope scene yet. So he doesn't hang around with people that do.

[37:51]

So he's unfortunate in that way. But still, he needs his dad. And also, Berkeley, seven years ago, they agreed that I could do a term as abbot at Zen Center. And then after four years, they agreed, okay, three more years. So I've been gone, not gone, but doing this for seven years, and they've been adjusting to that. And I feel it's time for me to get back to Berkeley and spend more time there and be more present. plan is to spend more time at Berkeley and my family in Tassajara. It doesn't mean that I'll be at Tassajara for long periods of time, but I will be coming back and forth. That's my plan, is to come back and forth between Tassajara more often for shorter periods of time, to be just really in touch with what's going on.

[38:55]

And I would like to see some development of Tassajara that nobody else thinks about, because everybody else is in the city. The people that think about Tassajara are at Tassajara. And in the city, we do think about Tassajara, but it's only in response. It's not like a focus. Tasahara gets taken care of by the people that are here. And so the director usually becomes very chauvinistic for Tasahara, which is good, you know. And then sometimes there's this kind of tension between the officers and the students, as you've probably either witnessed or participated in. So,

[39:57]

I want to actually be focused on Tassajara in a positive way, which we haven't really done for a long time. The abbot hasn't done that for a long time. So that's my intention. What was the rest of your question? but I didn't want to say it, so I'll say it now. I have in my wallet a yellow alert card that says, if anything happens to me, please notify your phone or Google. And I have a Google Call of Return health care for that, which means that I've been designated somebody to make health decisions for me if I am unconsciously sick. Or you can also just have a piece of paper that says, You know, in the event of an emergency, please don't give me heroic measures, you know, just anything that you want, but give some attention to that.

[41:02]

Because in hospitals and emergency situations, strange things can happen. It's a very good idea. I mean, I've done some study and research on this and I didn't see it, so I just... Yeah, it's a good... In case you didn't hear what she said, she said... I'll paraphrase what she said, that it's a good idea for somebody to have information on every one of us as to what kind of health problems we may have in case something happens to us, like we're unconscious or unable to do something for ourselves or communicate, that we have this information and know what kind of health coverage someone might have. or what kind of health exception. In other words, if you have diabetes, then there are certain operations that a doctor won't do.

[42:04]

So actually, it's good to know, to say, if I was to go to the hospital and I was unconscious and bleeding or something like that, I'd probably be okay. But the doctor should know that I have diabetes, even though it's very slight. So I think it's good for, even though things don't happen to us very often, but when they do, I think it's a good idea for us to have that information. So if you want to give that information to the director, good idea. As you were talking about, you know, having to go to all those meetings and everything, I remember last summer, walking through the front of the car and thinking, You know, I like what I'm doing, but I'm so tired of working so hard. And I think the reason that I found that was because at the same time, I was just kind of out of the blue. A lot of people had given me all this watercolor equipment, like paper and watercolors and brushes for some reason.

[43:12]

And I started doing that. And I was so surprised that I could do it. and that it came so easily, I thought, there's this whole side of me I've never been able to look at, you know, or work with in a certain way, because I'm always working so hard. I mean, I grew up poor, so I had to start working immediately, and I haven't really been able to stop. So that's what I'm sort of finding, that working hard sometimes seems to hurt in, you know, sort of all these different levels. And I'm wondering if maybe your feeling about moving towards not doing so much could actually happen sooner in a person's life, particularly, you know, one that's so packed in, like, as I feel like mine has been, you know. I just kind of keep looking for windows, windows, you know, of where this other side has this ability to, you know,

[44:13]

I don't have a problem with working too hard. I only have a problem with going to meetings. But you don't see that as work. Yeah, that's work. That's also work. all of us have some kind of ability or talent or interest in doing something that is creative. Most of us do, not everyone. But when we come to practice, we put it all down so that we can do one thing single-mindedly. And at some point, we give it back to you. and say, now you can paint again, you know, now you can play again, now you can, you know, whatever.

[45:24]

But, I think that it's important to wait for the right circumstances to do something like that. So, a place like Kasahara, we really limit ourselves, you know. When we start doing something that we like that's kind of an individual thing outside of the sangha activity, then we have to be kind of careful. Because easy, you just kind of get carried away. It's a big leak, you know. And it can be an escape. So it's very important. But pretty soon, you know, once we start creating something, then we start thinking about it a lot.

[46:25]

Possibly. I would say we always do. We probably start thinking about it a lot, and then pretty soon we're dwelling on it, and that's what we want to do, and the stuff that we're doing becomes very dull, you know, because we have this very interesting thing. So, we have to be careful about this interesting thing. because it can really take our... it can become such a focus of color that it makes everything else look gray. Jeez, I'm going to Zendo again and so forth. So that's why this kind of practice, we don't do that. We kind of stop doing that so that this limited amount of activity that we do becomes the focus. has that opportunity to come to life. So I'm not saying that painting is not good. But I think you have to be careful that you don't create something which becomes so interesting that the rest of the practice becomes kind of routine.

[47:37]

Well, I guess what I was trying to say is I actually think that this practice sort of opened up that possibility for me. You know, I think I've noticed that with other people, too, that, you know, once it starts opening up, I think it's even opened up the way, you know, the way I've worked in the kitchen. I, you know, I look at it in a way that's totally non-articulable. You know, when I'm cooking, I don't really know what I'm doing, kind of feeling, you know? It's not something that I can tell someone else that I do, necessarily. But, so I know I do it there. And if that thinking moves it to another part of me. So that's, I think I'm talking about something, not exactly what you're talking about. And so that's what I, it seems to be something, not exactly subtle, but shifted. Something creative that opens you up more. Right, right. It seems like now has actually... Well, that could be, that's right, that aspect of it can be very helpful. I think you're right.

[48:38]

It can be helpful. What I want to be careful of is that everybody doesn't suddenly start taking up watercolor painting. Right. So, and you know, in the history of Zen, especially in Japan, there have always been artists, you know, poets, you know, I remember though, Suzuki Roshi saying, you don't need to write poetry, you don't need to write books, you don't need to blah blah blah, you know. He was very careful to have us limit our activity when we're tasahara. On the other hand, it doesn't mean you shouldn't ever do that. And I think there is room for that, to do that. Especially for someone who's been practicing for a long time.

[49:39]

I was struck when you said, well, we should do what we're supposed to do, not what we want to do, because the last two practice periods that I was here last fall in 1993, in 1993, you know, in a very explicit, very kind of almost dramatic way, we were asked to really clarify what we really wanted to do and only do what we really wanted to do and it even led that we didn't have a schedule. I know. And it was an incredible experience in the sense that at least for me it was very helpful because I each time had to actually decide whether I wanted to do this or not. And it wasn't like, oh, I feel like it, or I don't feel like it, because that didn't address the question.

[50:49]

So I just felt it's interesting. And last practice period, it was the same. I mean, we did have a schedule, but it was kind of always that question, what is our ultimate concern? Or what do we really want to do in our life? So I just thought that was interesting. That's the koan of our practice. Suzuki Roshi said, should do and want to do. He said, should be and want to be. When should and want to are exactly the same, no problem.

[51:50]

One of the things that struck me in trying to work with myself on the idea of what is your ultimate concern, what is it you want, the first thing I find out is that I don't know that. I'm highly affected by shoulds. It's difficult for me sometimes to sort of work my way through the we's and the shoulds to find out who I am or what I want and to be clear about that in terms of the things I do. So that's how I understand be asked to find out what it is that you want.

[53:00]

So that when you're told what it is that you want, the idea isn't, well, I want to sleep in this morning, but something deeper than that. Though I want to sleep in this morning, maybe something that I would have to address. Or I want to do what I should. And that kept coming up to me too during that other practice period. I want to do what I should. That's very confusing. It's very confusing twice after that. Yeah, it can be confusing. Myself, I always wanted just to do the practice. There was never any question about should. It's just that whatever it is that we were doing was what I wanted to do, whether I wanted to do it or not.

[54:00]

Well, either you're lucky to have been so clear, or I'm unlucky not to be so clear. But for me, the question is always there, and it doesn't stop me. You know, like in that practice 15 years ago, the first thing that came up was, do I ring the bell tomorrow night? And I did ring it, and I rang it every day at the time I was supposed to ring for the rest of the practice. I didn't do it because I should. I did do it because I got down to something about that. Something about what it was that I wanted. So in that case, you know, it was a very good period for people to find out what they really wanted to do. That's very good, I believe. That's right. Well, I think there's a certain danger, too, in that over the years we've been just putting aside what we want to do, and blindly doing what we should do, what we're told to do.

[55:21]

But really, after 20 years of practice, you're not really sure, as Barbara said, what it is that we want to do. I don't know if the desire is to make money, but it's so varied, you need to follow the habitual doing what you should. but you forgot to really look at what you want. I think it's important, what you were saying on the board there, that if you want to harmonize what you want to and what you should, so that they really are the same thing, you have to know what you really want. And if you just keep putting aside for years and eventually doing what you should, you may not know what you're going to retire in. That's right. So, that practice period that Christina was talking about, was where you draw a line between the sheep and the goats, or whatever you want to call it. Those people who don't want, who don't think, or who want to do, who feel that what they want to do is being taken away from them by practicing, should do something else.

[56:34]

If you feel that what you really want in your life is being deprived by following the schedule, then you should do something else. What I'm saying is, I think the end of the day, it's machines that work. But maybe it's healthier and more creative if you actually challenge yourself to look at these more, rather than just saying, well, if you have one, go someplace else. No, that's not what I said. You're mixing up what you're saying with what I'm saying. I'm saying it does challenge you, your desires, of course. Practice challenges your desires. But the reason you're practicing is because you want to do that. Yes, of course. You want to see who you are. You don't want to just go off and you know that you've been following your desires for so long it doesn't work.

[57:37]

That's why you came here. And then you get here and you say, why are they stopping me from following my desires? It's always they. As soon as you point the finger at them, you know you've got a problem. There is nobody holding you here. Ever. That is what, for me, that 1993 practice came so obvious because it just brought me up ever thinking, you know, I have to go to this end of the course, I have to go, because each time I was thrown back onto myself and I have to make a decision. And that was, in that sense, very helpful. I don't think that's what I would like to do every practice period, in that extreme way, but then it was just amazing. And this is why it's good to do a little hermit practice.

[58:38]

Because you should be able to do a little hermit practice and follow the schedule all by yourself, without anybody waking you up, without anybody going to the Zen Dojo with you, without anybody cooking your meals, you know, do it all yourself. Do the whole thing yourself and then you'll find out what your true motivation is for practice. It's a good, very good thing to do. I recommend it to everybody. Yeah. Paul? I guess for the last two years I've been developing that experience for internal practices. I wouldn't necessarily call what you do permit practice. In other words, it may be a hermit practice.

[59:53]

You may be all by yourself on a mountain for six years. And then if somebody comes, you keep going up the mountain. But just to alternate between monastic practice and non-monastic practice, I think that's good. So in a non-monastic practice, you have to be more motivated, more self-motivated. to keep that going. You know, in this practice, we can all be here at Tassajara, doing the same thing, and because we're here, there's nothing else to do but go to the zendo, really, or go to sleep, right? Stay in bed, or go to the zendo, and do the schedule. So we do the schedule, you know, whether you like it or not. But in a non-residential practice, you have to get yourself up every morning to get to the zendo. That's very strong practice. I mean, I respect the Berkeley Zendo practice a lot, because for years and years, those people have been getting themselves up every morning and going to Zendo.

[61:06]

And it's not as convenient. I am no longer a resident of Zentsen, except when I'm here. I have to get up myself every morning, get on my bike, and ride two miles to the Zendo. which is a good way of getting an exercise. But, I used to live at the Zendo, and it was very convenient. I'd just roll out of bed and go to the Zendo. So, now, being removed, that's another thing you have to do, you know. And then get dressed, and then get dressed all over again when you get there, you know. And you can't think about it. Just do it. So that's good practice. It's really good practice out there, not being a resident, not having all these people to help you. And so, you know, they're there. You all come together and then you feel that power. But I'm not against Shiro practice.

[62:11]

What we do is Japanese style. And the Japanese don't do anything by themselves because they don't... Japanese people as a culture don't have a sense of individuality. their sense of themselves is always bound up with the sense of family or people they work with or the situation that they're in. And they are a part of that. They don't have an individuality apart from that. So when someone comes from Japan, they're all by themselves. You know, they're lost, kind of, you know. So you always see large groups of Japanese people coming with their cameras and their suits and whatever, you know. And they're always traveling together, always traveling together in buses and so forth. And, you know, very rarely do you see someone, an individual, doing his own thing. Because it's just not part of the culture. And they're trying to learn how to do that.

[63:13]

But, so, in our culture, we're all individuals, right? So, I don't say that, for our culture, Karmic practice is not right. But there's something to be said. What Japanese call karmic practice is ego practice. Just doing something for yourself. So it's very true that we should you know, do something for ourselves. But this is the nation of selfishness, I have to say. If you look at the way our government operates, there are the people who want to do something for the country, and there are the people that want to do something for themselves. And that's where our tension is, in the country, in politics.

[64:18]

People that want to just do something for selfish people, and people that want to help everyone. And it's a big battle. It goes on constantly. And Buddhist practice is really about selfless practice. So I think the Japanese have something and that's why this practice is so attractive for us. But we also have to be aware of our own culture and take that into account and not be blindly going along in just a Japanese practice. We think we're practicing kind of Japanese practice. They don't think so at all. Yeah. I know that you also have empty bed traditions, but there's a lot of support and time for periods of intensive solitary retreat as part of that practice. And it seems to be a big gap in the center.

[65:21]

I know there's a number of mountain centers that also have solitary retreats. That's not an option, that is. Not yet. Not to do the practice period altogether as one practice, but then to have a more short period as an option to be able to do those more. Well, there has always been a plan, you know, for us to have a hermitage in Tassajara. It just never gets built. But it can happen. It can happen. But the hermitage is for some, should be for someone, should be advanced practice. There, a couple of times, there have been young students who wanted to go out in the woods and practice, you know, and they just got lost in the woods. They just kind of drifted away, you know. And also, being out there, they come in, you know, and then they,

[66:21]

being kind of prima donna, you know, everybody would say, oh, you know, what have you been doing, you know, and I kind of star, right? So it really, it really was ego practice for someone who is not a seasoned practitioner. I don't know if in Japan they have this practice, but in Korea, every monster has a hermitage. Has a what? Has a hermitage. Hermitage, yeah. And usually it's the elder monks, someone who's been an abbot or a zen master, that would spend the later years in the hermitage. And they would still have students, but they'd withdraw from the community life for sometimes years at a time. That's what I find to be good. But, well, you know, also in China they have, they used to have rooms where they'd wall somebody up in the room and they'd have a little, just like a prison cell.

[67:32]

And the person would stay there for several years and they'd just feed them. Yeah. Just that we hope that, you know, The monastery might decline during that time, but I also miss it. Why do you think there's not very much support for that in Zen Center? I think there is a lot of support for that in Zen Center. But it hasn't happened. No. It's because there's not a lot of people that usually sees it. Well, I think a lot of people have an idea that they would like to do this. I don't know how many people would actually do this, or could do this, but I think that our people have an idea, and it's a great idea. And... What's out there? We've got a cabin out to the left. Yes, maybe so.

[68:35]

But we're also thinking of building something down the creek or up the top of the waterfall or something. Yeah. So I'm not sure I want to say this after the terrific talk, but... A while back, you said something about, you know, when a place is first established, there's a sense of creativity, and that's not always true as time goes on. So we're talking about aging of individuals, but I also have concern about aging of institution and the individuals within it, you know, like Zen Center. And during Leslie's, one of her talks, she mentioned the fact that so many of her what she considers herself to be the class of 71. How many of those people now are in prominent positions including Norman herself. And I guess it's one of my concerns when I look at a place like Green Gulch and I see a lot of older people there. And I wonder is there a communal discussion going on about terms of who stays on for how long.

[69:39]

Because one I wonder if, in fact, that original sense of creativity, which, you know, 60s and 70s, could be happening again. And two, for people coming in, there's not so much a tiered or different systems of levels. I mean, there is, but just the fact that all these people are now at Zen Center and some people have been here a while. and what that creates in terms of practice and dynamic? Well, I think that that's complex. You're talking about it's complex. And it brings up the question of should older students move out of Zen Center? How should they be distributed within Zen Center, right? And it's very complex. It has to do with should and want to. I've asked several people

[70:41]

to older students to be director in the city. I thought, you should be able to do this. But they didn't want to. So what do you do in that kind of situation? It's a very difficult situation to actually get somebody because they want to be someplace else. My feeling has always been, you want me to do something, what should I do? And I think everybody should, all Zen students should feel that way. If they're in Zen Zen, otherwise, if they're not in Zen Zen, it's okay, but as long as you're in Zen Zen, then you're always working for the benefit of the community, not just for what you want to do. I mean, what I want to do is work for the benefit of the community. But not everybody feels that way.

[71:45]

And there's various reasons why, you know, so I'd be careful to withhold judgment, even though I have feelings of, you know, I think you should do what I ask. But I think it... See, what happened was in the 80s, we had a lot of... we had people who were older students, and people who were younger students, and people in the middle. And the middle students, a lot of them were Bekaroshis, people that Bekaroshi had brought up, who had come to practice at the time when he was abbot. And they were maturing, but then when we had the crisis, most of them left. And so we had this big gap, in Zen Center between the older students and the younger students. And we're still, it's the absence of the baby boomers, so to speak.

[72:50]

The absence of what? Of the baby boomers. Of the, you know, of the Richard boomers. They, so there's kind of a hole. And so a lot of the same people take the leading positions because of their experience and age and how long they've been practicing, you know, and maturity. And then the younger people who aren't ready to fill a lot of positions. And so it's always a kind of hassle. But the younger people are, there's a whole group of younger people who are becoming older and getting ready. What happens is they get up to a certain point and then they lose interest in it. You know, there's so many good young people who've been practicing for years enough years so that they're just ready to start taking positions of responsibility and then they leave. Why is that? Well, it's a good question.

[73:52]

Why? It's too hard to understand these really old times. No, that's not it. You, I mean, you shouldn't say that. You've been asked to do all kinds of positions that you don't want to do. It occurs to me now that looking to the old timers up there that what we need to be doing is looking to what is it that will challenge and excite and engage younger people. I don't think it's the fuel or people who are floating around that are actually creating the problem. But I think there is a problem.

[74:53]

And I think it's something that's calling for a new way of addressing how we grow and work and feel empowered at Sun Center. And I, you know, I'm really interested in Kozun's desire to find that empowerment. And I don't think it has to be done in either or way. I don't think it's about them not staying as much as how you empower this group. Yeah, I think that's right. And I don't know the answer, and I think we should talk about it a lot. Well, I also think that there is a level of people who just don't want to take responsibility. And I think that a lot of strong women have taken a lot of responsibility, have allowed themselves to move into positions and take responsibility, but I think there are a lot of men who don't.

[76:05]

No, I don't want to elaborate at this greatly. There can be an extinction between responsibility and authority. And some people, I think, are reluctant to take responsibility if there is no authority. And some people are not interested in responsibility. They're interested only in authority. So why did that please everybody? Why does that please everybody? Yeah, it's something that's very seldom said. You know, there are a lot of these issues that not one of them is the problem, but a lot of them are just never We don't just shove them under the rug so much.

[77:11]

We don't really ever really address somebody. So it's really refreshing when somebody says something like that. We say, wow, it's come out of the shadows, it's into the light. It's nice. Well, it seems obvious to me. Why is it? First time I've heard it in years. What did he say? What did he say? I thought you said that there might be some people who have the ability to respond, but they have no authority. And there are other people who are interested in developing their ability to respond. They just want to get power. Yeah. It's two different issues. Right. This also came on the heels of someone mentioning that there are a number of young men in the community who don't want to take responsibility But I bet there are quite a number of young men in the community who cherish the authority.

[78:14]

So should we give them the authority without responsibility? No. I think they should go together. There are a lot of people who really do take responsibility, but they have no say in the decision-making. And that really, after a while, I know I've asked a lot of people who've left in the last four years, And they think, you know, that's one of the reasons I heard often. But they were doing the work, but they weren't making the decision. And they get tired of it after a while. So they leave. So I think they should go together. If you want people to feel refreshed and feel like they're really, you know, they have something to say in the situation rather than just doing the work. That's what we try to do. you cannot include everybody in on every decision that you make.

[79:35]

And in order for an organization or any organization to run, you have to delegate authority. Otherwise, everybody is always in the meeting. So it's easy to say, you know, we don't get in on the decisions. It's easy to say that. Well, it's easy to say what you just said, too. I've heard it for 20 years, that not everybody can make decisions, but that's not the point. We're not saying everybody should make decisions. We're saying those people who run, who do the work on the farm should make decisions about the farm. We're saying, you know, that's what I'm saying. It's not that everybody should make the decisions, but not that people who sit at home make the decisions for the people who have to work. Well, I don't think that's happening. You think that the people in the city are making decisions for you. Is that what you're saying? There are certain decisions that cover all of Zen Center.

[80:41]

And there... say like the officers and that officers group is made up of representatives from all the places. Your director goes to those meetings and represents at the meeting represents you and comes back and tells you about what happened. And you can say something. It's government by representation. Yeah, but we didn't choose our representatives. Is there something wrong with her? We didn't choose her. The rank and file did not choose these representatives. You chose them. Tom chose who would be the director for us. And every time I bring this up, people say, well, Sun Center is not a democracy. But it's the fact that we didn't choose. So they represent us, but in a way.

[81:44]

I don't buy it completely. Because if there's some reason why this person is not representing you, why is that?

[81:55]

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