wrote and so he's not going to be here tonight. So he asked me to try to jump in to the seven factors of enlightenment. I haven't been burning any midnight oil studying this. I've just been sort of sitting in the class, letting it pour in. So when I started to look at the stuff, I realized that there were some parts I was just really kind of confused about, and I felt the need of a visual aid. I don't know if there are any other visual learners in the group, but one of the things that I found confusing was that we have the four foundations of mindfulness. So I'm just going to do a little quick overview here. Of the four foundations, the first is being aware of our body, including our breath. The second is being aware of pleasant feelings, painful feelings, neutral feelings.

[01:07]

The third is being aware of mind, which is more like kind of the trope of the mind or like greedy mind, angry mind, there's just a few of those actually, there's a small number of those. And the fourth one is being mindful of dharmas or mind objects. And there's very particular dharmas that we're supposed to be aware of. And this is where we're getting into the kind of telescoping of the little lists. But anyway, the five skandhas, the five hindrances, the 12 sense bases, the four noble truths, and the seven factors of enlightenment, which is really what this class is about, the seven factors. However, the first factor is mindfulness. This is what you call in Excel a circular reference.

[02:09]

But it works in Buddhism actually, it works fine, no problem. So Mel Sojin has been teaching these and we did mindfulness in two classes, but we used this. That's this formulation of the mindfulness. Then we did in one class, I think, energy, joy and tranquility. And we haven't gotten to these yet and I'm hoping that Sojin is going to talk about these during Sashin. So I wanted to bring up, I have been enlisting the help of the Tanto and our new lay teacher and I thought that we noticed that in the formulation here, this is Ananda's, there's a pattern to the way each factor is presented. Each factor has a characteristic, a function, a manifestation and ways to cultivate that.

[03:17]

And the ways to cultivate also have a pattern. There are several reflections, different ways to reflect that will help you cultivate that. And then each one says two things, to help you cultivate it, avoid people who don't have this and associate with people who do, whichever one it is. And then each one says that another way to cultivate it is just to incline towards that factor. So I was really just going to open it up to questions, mainly about this. The seven factors, any one of them, especially the five that we studied, and maybe particularly ways to cultivate. Does anybody, and we could also, anybody else have any other, we haven't had that much time in the classes to ask questions, so.

[04:27]

Yes, Charlie. human nature being what it is, most people, aside from, you know, severely pathologically diagnosed, contain both positive and negative factors around these factors of enlightenment. You mean like lack of joy or something? Yes. So how do we know what, who a joyful person is, or who a mindful person is. You mean, or even within yourself, how do you know when you are giving rise to that factor? I was thinking about the association part more than the internal part. Like, if we're supposed to mindfulness by being around those who are mindful.

[05:31]

How do we know? I mean, is it sort of like wine? Is it 51% mindful and 51% mindless? Well, yes, Richard, are you going to answer? I'm going to make a comment. Right. It seems more like, I think to us, kind of a Hinayana approach in some way. So yeah, he didn't really bring these up. And we don't have to talk about him either. Charlie, I guess you just used your best judgment. I can't think of any other way to do it. Alan? I think that you, as you develop in practice, you also develop your own ability to wean your own energy.

[06:33]

You know, you're around somebody and you're around, for instance, you're around Luisa, who has very strong elements of joy. obvious, but you have to read, you have to develop your own self-reliance, which is what, which is also what the Buddha taught, to be able to make these kinds of discriminating decisions. You know, you see some people you're around, and you realize you get confused when you're around them. Or some people you're around, and they make you very tired. You know, this is In Zen, I think we would say, okay, you look at your responsibility for that and can you turn that?

[07:36]

But until you can turn it, you would do better not hanging out with those kinds of people. But it comes back to you to look at it yourself. Karen? Yeah. That reminds me of this concept that I've been working with that's called absorbing or enduring the negative manifestations of others as a practice where you're not necessarily constantly feeding back and letting you know, oh, you're off or you're this or like not trying to adjust the other person or adjust the situation. So I like that distinction that it's like Mel talks about doing Hinayana practice with a Mahayana mind. So the idea that more of a Mahayana mind would be not to avoid people and situations that bring up hindrance, but only in so far as you can work with them somewhat productively, not for an outcome, but so that you don't get, so that I don't get pulled off.

[08:37]

Like Alan was saying, if it's an energetic mismatch over time, I'll probably, if I'm paying attention, not continue to put myself in that situation. But on the other hand, I like this sort of proactive enduring the negative manifestations of others as a way to sort of not avoid anything. And I do think, to me, there's a time and a place. I mean, I don't think we should all feel all the time that we should be able to absorb any energy from anybody. I think it's, to me, the Sutra is saying it's okay to water the seeds by being around other people who have that and wither the seeds by, when you can, not going out of your way, to hang out with people who don't. And again, it's not to judge them or put them down, but at least noticing maybe, just for starters, being mindful of the effects that people are having.

[09:42]

Mark? It seems to me that practicing mindfulness around trying to choose who to be with would also include the fact that sometimes some people are mindful and sometimes those same people are not. They have these qualities and then they don't. So I think including what Charlie was saying, you know, and that the task is just, you know, when to hang out with people when they're at their best or something like that. There's a lot here, isn't there, about how much we're supposed to be tinkering, because part of our practice is we're not supposed to be tinkering to get an outcome. So I think you're right to bring that up, and that's important. Dean? I had a real strong reaction after the first class to, so often in these readings, it said, stay away from confused people. And I actually called up a handful of people about that, left messages on their machines saying, I'm having a real problem with this, I tend to be confused a lot, and I feel a little bit like this is exclusive to say, stay away from confused people.

[10:49]

And Soja did touch on it, and sort of what I had gotten from these several people I called and left messages for, some who called me back, some who maybe thought I was too confused and didn't want to talk to me. They thought it was more along the lines of, that you don't, it's not like, oh, confused person, like this. That it's more what Alan said, is that as you practice, you get drawn towards certain things more, and you get drawn you get not so drawn to things and that made sense to me because I know that there are people that I've been drawn to for years and I'm just less drawn to them now and it isn't that I have this judgment that they're confused, it's just that it doesn't, it's not going the same direction as me and so that was a real big point for me, because it felt very exclusive, you know, stay away from this kind of person, stay away from that kind of person, and it really helped for people to sort of explain their ideas of it in that way.

[11:58]

Yeah. The thing that I keep wondering about myself, and maybe this is the same as what you're saying or not, is that we are supposed to be trying to cultivate these factors. So how do we do that? Anybody? That's it guys? Marie? Well I think that practicing the seven factors probably helps. And how do you, what do you mean by practicing them? I was at the dentist for two hours earlier today, and I thought I had the intention to be mindful when I was in the dental chair being drilled on. It was really very, very interesting, because I thought, I'm pretty afraid. I doubt that I'm going anywhere.

[12:59]

I'm going to really be paying attention. But I was gone. I would have to keep bringing myself back. It was a really powerful thing. I don't think I got enlightened in the dentist here, but I noticed, you know, like what effort it takes to just kind of be there with the fear, you know, with the horrible sound of the bad drill. I mean, there's a nice drill and there's a bad drill, you know. So it was, you know, I think just the... Just practicing, you know, in different situations. It's really interesting. where you kind of could be at, with mindfulness it's always appropriate, right? And that made joy come up? Like the woes, you know, like kind of look at the woes.

[14:12]

I forget how that word is. Could you find that? In the joy? I think it's one of the reflections, one of the like numbered. Like reflecting on like the woeful states. Right. So I thought about the woeful states. That's supposed to bring up joy. I think it is supposed to. Uh-huh. Like compare and contrast, you know. It could be worse. Alan has something to say. Did you have something about this, Alan? Yeah, I don't think... I don't... I think it's kind of unlikely that joy would be the quality that you would cultivate in the dentist's chair. In these systems, we were reading today from one of the other Theravada teachers, you know, he was saying, other than mindfulness, and I forget the exact pairing, these break down into groups of three and three. you know, and there are ones, there are factors like joy and energy, I think joy, energy and concentration probably, right?

[15:21]

No, I think it's invest, isn't it? And then these three, yeah. Investigation, energy and joy are qualities that you cultivate when... the word that you use when you're depressed. One word I read is sinking, to counteract the sinking. Tranquility, concentration and equanimity are qualities that you would cultivate when you're agitated. Or restless, yeah. Well, that makes sense. Which is interesting because I haven't heard it framed that way. before so they're kind of balanced not exactly in pairs but they're situational according to how you feel you need to balance your energy. Mark? Yeah I think there's another way to look at that which is So one person could just sort of specialize in one or something?

[16:35]

Well, personally, my practice is to try to be mindful of my emotional and mental mind states throughout the day. And I often forget to do that, but I think the important thing for me is to have an inclination to do that, to have that as the primary focus of my day. You know, you get up and say, well, what am I going to do? My basic goal is to tell myself to be mindful. And to be mindful, you need energy, there has to be some tranquility, some concentration, equanimity. I mean, all those other factors eventually come into play. So I don't worry so much about, you know, trying to focus on all seven, I just focus on one and eventually it seems like all seven are there. Well, at one point when we were talking, we were noticing how many different this energy is on. or effort, it's an eight-fold path, it's one of the paramedas, I mean, it's like, you know... And mindfulness, too, is actually on a lot of them.

[17:42]

When they get embedded in each other, it keeps appearing, you know. Yes, Sue and then Marion. I just want to say this is my first class. Sorry. In the practice I've been working with in the Adirondacks, what I noticed was having simply a reminder, let's say a written reminder, I mean such as I noticed If you have a sutra with you, or you have a date book with something on it, or you have a post-it with mindfulness or energy, which I always sort of poo-poo because I have a lot of people in my life, I notice they have these things on their refrigerators. It's like, give me a break.

[18:43]

But I found something old that I brought with me. It was Ten Ways to Have a Great Day by Joyce Brothers. And starting to see how to balance your energy, when you're at the point where you forget that there is such a thing as joyfulness or energy, and there are moments frequently where that occurs, to have such a list of calls it into existence, as if it never existed and suddenly it does. It's just very amazing to just have the list. I'd like to hear more examples if people have them of like a time that you were sinking or depressed and you were able to find some energy or call forth something. and feeling that pain.

[20:10]

And for me, I take a practice of not thinking about how good I have it and just be with the difficult. So as part of what you're saying, you don't want to skip over kind of what's happening in some way, what's actually happening? I'm really aware of and feel the difficulty and to source out what the source is of that. And basically, I don't want to have to deal with this particular thing. When you think about it, it's just a little thing. In the realm of things, it's just a little thing. You look at the paper or read through the internet or watch the internet and see what So first you sort of like let yourself say, oh, this is terrible, this is so awful.

[21:19]

And then you sort of let yourself cut. Is that what you're saying? I don't think terrible or awful. I think it's just like experiencing the feeling. And then like the eighth one, you know, equanimity, just having the equanimity of, well, there's this feeling of like despair, distraughtness, or uplifted feelings of wonder and all that. And then the other side, which is kind of everything else sets up. And this just happens to be in the four. So it's really a whole package. But are you saying you're just applying that thought? You're like, you're having your experience and then you're just having that thought sort of turn? Like it sounds like you're talking about not turning the situation, just accepting it for what it is, but seeing it in the bigger picture, which is it's not as important as these other things you see other people going through. That's what I'm hearing you say. just become aware of.

[22:34]

So to me that's like the Mahayana mind part, holding a larger context where you're not the only person in the world. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. You asked for an example and I'm interested in this but I had an example today when I had a phone call and I was very upset and I didn't know how to hold it and so it didn't seem like any of those were happening And I thought of the lecture that Lori gave, I think it was one of the Saturday ones, and you talked about accepting what was happening or settling into it somehow, like really just, and what I thought you were talking about, just really, this is happening. And then bringing awareness to it. and then seeing if you could turn a little bit, and you sort of outlined those three events, but that the acceptance of what was happening was really critical. Without it, it was sort of like nothing else was possible.

[23:38]

So I felt like, well, there I was, I was completely, I don't know if I was completely accepting it, but that was my intention. This, I'm upset, I'm completely upset. So just being upset and settling with it, and then, bringing awareness to it, looking at the factors of what caused it, looking at the bigger picture. Like I may have this blessed life and I had an upsetting phone call. I'm not scratching out for my existence today. I'm not in a war. I don't have a lot of fears that, you know, so putting it in that context, however, consciously or not. And then I took up a pair of shears and I went in the backyard and I cut down grass. So I brought this energy and focus. I brought this energy and concentration without abandoning what happened. It all came along with me. And also remembering this is not the end of the world and I'm not the center of it. And just cut grass and it turned without my turning it. But I don't feel like I just sort of like avoided it.

[24:42]

That's a good story. Turned into what? You weren't upset anymore. It just turned. It turned into the next thing. I didn't stay in a place of... Yeah. So, and on one level, yeah, I like that that outcome happened, but I don't think it's possible unless I just really said, I'm upset. I'm completely upset. How does cultivating this factor is different from wanting a special experience? I've been taught, like, you know, in the Heartless, you know, just longing for some special experience.

[25:49]

It's just gifts. It's not something you want. It just comes and just be open for it. Right. So that's why I've been like, also I'm lazy. I just look at this whole list. Yeah. Right. But I'm also hearing, like, oh, Ellen, you know, and Watson, you know, how do you, you know, it's just different angles. It kind of helps, but it just almost feels both dangerous and too tedious. Uh-huh. And I'm turning away from studying it. Uh-huh. Right. And also this other... That comes up for me, too, yeah. You know, learning that you don't, you know, you can't really... make yourself to have these things so that this is going to make more suffering. Right. And also the thing about not being attached to results. That's a big part of our practice. So like you're sort of cultivating it but yet you're not getting caught up in whether you're getting the result you wanted somehow.

[26:55]

I guess. More stories? More comments? Yeah, Eric? And then Paul? Well, I think, well, the people who mentioned it, it can be so hard to actually trust this practice of neither turning away nor grasping, and especially when it's something that's really negative, that Perhaps it bears another story, which is for me, a few weeks ago, I was in a courtroom situation. And there was a lot at stake emotionally. And so I was sitting there waiting for judgment to fall. I became consumed with a lot of anxiety and fear about what the outcome might be. But remembering our practice, I thought for this time, I'll just let myself feel this, this wave of fear and anxiety and discomfort.

[27:59]

And, you know, the feeling, trying to be aware of the bodily feeling was, you know, really very powerful, sort of, you know, like a seething, boiling mass of negative emotion and an uncomfortable feeling and fear. And then after about 30 seconds just experiencing that, it just went away by itself. you know, human survival instinct, or whatever it is, is I'm going to avoid what is, if it doesn't seem like it's going to be beneficial to me right now, is a real challenge.

[29:03]

Paul. And then Alan. Once, when I was sort of depressed, not very depressed, about, which is basically, this is not a good, these things that are happening are not good. These are bad things that are happening. And that creates an emotional response. It's a story that I was kind of caught in. And so when he said that, well, the first thing that occurred to me, as he said, you're caught in yourself, so ask yourself, I think he even said, ask yourself, what's not the dream? What's not the story? What else is there? Which, was very effective, actually, in allowing me just to experience, I guess, I don't want to say too much about it, but it's made it very easy to momentarily drop the story, which at least the first time I did that was quite rewarding.

[30:09]

So when he said this, you were able to bring something to mind that wasn't the story, somehow? Well, yeah. I just asked myself, so what attention instantly just went to you know what the sensations in my body and sort of you know sensations of all kinds and I didn't have any objective really by doing that and I think that's very important I wasn't trying to get away from something and somehow So it has to be very genuine, it has to be not trying to get away, not trying to fix some bad emotional state, but something about this very close I don't want to be afraid.

[31:28]

Oh, if I'm afraid, I'm going to really glow. So the story is kind of the discursive narrative that's going on in your head, not the feeling that's in your body. Well, it creates the whole problem, is what I'm saying, including being in a dentist chair and not liking it. If you try to get out of the bad discomfort of being in a dentist chair by dropping the story, it won't work, though. from something unpleasant. You have to really mean it. And I don't know how you can do that. You just have to give up somehow, I think. And you can't do that on purpose. At some point, you get tired of avoiding. And then good things happen, I think. You ruined it for us now. We can't do it. where the seven factors are among... Those are all the dharmas.

[32:56]

Some of the dharmas. There's more of them. That's about a third of them or something that are listed in this kind of Buddhist psychological system. It's important to remember, I think, that all of these dharmas are subject to impermanence and that they're co-conditioned and co-created. They depend on you rising and falling away of conditions. And so it's not an experience. I think we get stuck where we think we want this experience that's going to change us forever. And it's good enough for us to change how we are in court. They're not an outcome. They're a tool.

[34:00]

And so if we cultivate them, then we're able to really bring our agency to bear. So we're not passive to everything that happens to us. We're actually, right in there, co-creating it. Did you, Charlie? Well, Paul says you can't do it every time. I don't know exactly what his experience has been, but my experience is working with negativity Mel's instructions about shining a light on it. So maybe you're upset with somebody, you're upset, sort of is mixed up also with, you know, derision or disgust.

[35:15]

So the idea is to shine a light on these emotions. Where are they coming from? You know, what color are they? What shape are they? You know, when did they first occur? Where in your body are they? That's a big one. Right. Well, right. You can go into that too. Like, where does my body stop? That's always a good one. But, and then, just through this exercise, I mean, it just changes everything. I think of it in terms of use it or lose it. We'll say mindfulness. You have some, you use it, you get more of it. You have some, you don't use it, you're losing it.

[36:18]

The same with the other six days. Barbara? Well, Charlie's making it somewhat discounted. You know, you just sit down and in about five minutes you feel better. Sometimes it takes weeks. Sometimes it takes years. Sometimes 15 minutes before court is fine. I'm reminded of the wrap on Saturday night of the woman whose boyfriend left her and she sat for days before it felt better. And then there are others of us that have used other substances, in my case like food, as a substitute for feeling these things. And it takes a little longer to get to the point where you can give that up and respond to energy and joy, and maybe the feelings too, without those substances. So sometimes it's a long process, even if you have all the tools. What's our timing? Our time is 8.10. So we could take a five-minute break? Or wait five minutes, is that what you're saying?

[37:23]

I wanted to mention that one thing Mel suggested we do is actually sit Zazen and try something, try cultivating. So what do people think about taking 15 minutes? Alan, what do you think? Karen, what do you think? Yeah, when we come back from the break, to sit for 15 minutes? Well... When do we come back? No, no, I don't want to tell you when you come back. I don't know if I want to have to talk. Should we just face out? Let's just face out and be together. Well, for starters, we could have the people who are feeling restless could pick one of these and try.

[38:25]

to cultivate it, just see what happens. And the people who are feeling sinking could take one of these. What else? Do you have another suggestion? I was thinking if we use this, I don't know how many people have theirs, I don't have mine, but in Silenango that has the lists of how to, the ways to cultivate it. We could look at some of that and maybe bring that So if you've got your list, you could pick one. I mean, the thing is, the lists are so light. Whenever I read the lists, I just get overwhelmed if I try to read the whole list. It's like, I think the idea is pick one reflection in each one and try it. Maybe people can share their lists. Does anybody feel like they didn't get to weigh in or they have some burning thing? say Okay Please The other thing you might want to do is To sit for a little while just thoughts in Just tuning into your breath and your posture

[39:54]

possibly see. These are factors that arise in practice enlightenment. And maybe identify, if you can, which of these factors, one or more, is arising for you. Looking at your energy, cultivating maybe, if you can do that, that's great. So start with just seeing which ones are there. And definitely I think we've established that clearly the point of these is not to use them to cover up what's happening. I mean, that seems to be the essence of what we were getting to. Okay, that sounds good to me. Anybody else? Any last words? And then we'll have further discussion. Oops, I guess I better get that off.

[41:06]

As a little postscript to what Alan was saying, I wanted to read at the end of many of the different Four Foundations of Mindfulness sections, there's a passage, it repeats, "...we dwell contemplating these factors when they arise internally, reflect on these factors when they arise externally and we contemplate them internally and externally we come to see that there are these factors only, not a being, not a person. Meditators seeing this way live independently and do not cling to anything in the world. So the subtext actually of all these, the four foundations, is to see what there is instead of a self to see we're always looking at selflessness because there always is no self and we, you know, wherever we think we see one.

[42:41]

Steve? we're not. What the seven factors are about and what you just read is that seven factors allow me to shift from what I'll call personal or small self or small mind to big mind. And it's really the same to me. You have a Marty? My experience was that cultivating things.

[44:09]

I just like, you know, Zazen. Not cultivating anything. But what I found was I was practicing with joy. And what I found was that it really was no different than Zazen. But what it was was with this idea of joy It brought my attention to those aspects of self which were in the way of joy. It's like I could feel these kind of gauze wrapping me. It's like, okay, I let go of that. I let go of that. And the joy was just there. It's not anything special. those aspects of the self.

[45:14]

What I thought, you know, it's sort of like this is what we like, this is what we like about Zazen. I mean we wouldn't necessarily put it in these words quite, but it's kind of what keeps us coming back in a way, in some way, maybe. Stan, are you just reading? Anyone else want to weigh in here? Well, I was going to say that I... just simply that I kept switching, you know, I kept going through everything. You know, I kept thinking, oh, this is joy, this is energy, and then this is the lack of energy, and then this is... you know, it's sort of a... I didn't mean it as a checklist, but I realized that all these things were happening Dean and Marion?

[46:20]

One of the things that people, a couple things people said before the break that I sort of took note of was, I think when Ross was talking about something about being in the dentist chair and thinking about, you know, how lucky we have it and this and that, and I'm not exactly sure if that's what he said, but it's sort of what popped into my mind is that is almost cultivating dualism to me. I mean, for me to sit there and start, when I'm in some kind of bad mood, start thinking, well, everybody else doesn't have it as bad. Or when I start thinking, well, look at all the people who don't have the opportunity to get mad because there's only chocolate ice cream and no vanilla, and stuff like that. I think that what that does for me is it that creates a whole dualism thing that we hear Sojin talk about so much or that they're in all these books. And I think that for me, one of the things I've tried to do is not think about that, but just to try to keep that context out of it.

[47:28]

Am I making any sense? No? That's all right. That context? I mean, I was following you until you said that context. There's this, well, look at these people who don't even have the opportunity to go to a dentist, to not do a comparison thing, and that's how it sort of struck me, because what happens when I do that is then it's sort of like, well, I don't have a right to feel like this at all, and boy, there goes everything I feel right out the window. And then the other thing I wanted to say is that I've heard several people say something about that we want to hold on to this, we want to get better, we don't want to let go of these feelings, And sometimes it's not, I don't know if it's that we don't want to, sometimes we just don't know how. We just don't know the way. Like that talk you had a few Saturdays ago about the short narrow path. Sometimes I think that we just don't know the way and for example when my bird died, it was awful. I was ready to blame my housemaid and this and that.

[48:33]

I mean I was going back to people I haven't seen for years being mad at them about stuff and I came in and I talked to Sojan and I said, you know, this happened and I'm feeling like blaming and he started sort of explaining why animals die and this and that and sort of like, and then he just said to me, he said, you're just sad. He said, you're just sad. And you know, that was it. I was just sad and everything that came after that has been so different. It's just been perfect and so it wasn't and I had that tranquility and that joy and that energy and all that stuff came even while I was being sad because so I don't know I think sometimes we just don't know and I mean that's what all those things they just flooded in

[49:35]

and everything came, as long as I could keep hearing those words, you're just sad, then I would get that tranquility, I would get that whatever. So, I think that, I don't know, maybe it's just, maybe I'm just talking about the importance of Sangha in general, but, I don't know, it sounded, when I thought about it, it sounded like it had something to do with it in my mind. Marion? I was struck by the similarity with body. I was working on energy, because I want those to lay down. So it's not that different from zazen if I apply myself. So by focusing on some factor, it helps me concentrate. And then when it's a slippery thing, you know, I just, as soon as I feel good I start spacing out again.

[50:48]

So it's not an aim, it's not meant to be. It's meant to be something we do while we are alive. Is the cultivation something we do during meditation or is the cultivation what we do in our life? and in meditation we're mindful of when they arise and when they don't arise. It sounds like also when we're meditating, I mean, to me, the way they're talking about it, I don't, what do you think, Alan? but in, you know, as Huso Nana is presenting it, and also in discussions with Chan monk, Heng Shui, who is a student of Master Wa in Chinese school.

[52:07]

He's at the Berkeley Buddhist Monastery. They have very particular, they have very particular meditations. They do. what we call Shikhandaza, but they also have other kinds of cultivations and sometimes that cultivation is, they'll have periods a day when they're chanting, you know, they're chanting But there aren't meditations. Some of these cultivations are, they look like the person's meditating. Yes, definitely. But this is not an instruction that we've been given. Right. It's not our particular school. Eric? Well, on break I was speaking with a woman here.

[53:09]

I'm sorry, I don't know your name. I'm paraphrasing, you can correct me. exert effort and try to deliberately cultivate things. And I think our posture and breathing helps us connect ourselves between our cultivation and our non-cultivation. But what do other people have to say?

[54:09]

Because I thought that was a real challenging question. Yeah, what I was really getting at was if you're cultivating something, that means you're trying to gain something. Yeah. So there's a danger in that, but then there's also good to cultivate, but not try to gain, you know what I mean? Cultivating too much, then you're trying to gain something, that's not dangerous, but that's what I was alluding to, trying to gain something, you know? and what was the distinction again between tools and sort of a thing or a state or an outcome I mean that seems to me quick and it's it's easier to see something like investigation or mindfulness as a tool or a process right harder when you say joy which sounds like

[55:10]

a state we want to try and attain. So it is a little confusing, I don't know. And actually they go into that, I don't know if we have time to do this now, but they talk about how there's sukha, which is happiness, which is more the state, and there's pity, which is the joy It's sort of like if you cultivate pity then the state that happens is sukha, so they do draw a distinction there between the thing you're cultivating and a result. I guess if we aren't cultivating anything, then how are we different from the people who don't practice at all? If we are, I guess we're not. Except that we come in here once in a while. You mean we're just turning over the soil and we're not planting any seeds?

[56:17]

That's that image? That's an image? Uh-huh. Anybody else? Andrea? I've always thought about that our Zazen practice is kind of an advanced practice. Advanced. It's an advanced practice for, in my experience, what Karen was saying about having an upsetting phone call and just being able to sit still in the middle of all the feelings that come up to really bear it and let it turn into something else. But you really have to be able to sit still, which takes a lot of mindfulness, it takes a lot of concentration, it takes a fair amount of All of those things that seem like they can take years and years of sitting in our practice to have arise naturally. And so I see, I experience the factors of enlightenment as helpful things to fall back on when I'm stuck. My mind is all over the place.

[57:19]

So you've let go of trying to get an outcome with this terrible, whatever this is, and you're just trying this. When I can't figure a way out of it, okay, so this is happening. How do I cultivate that in the middle of all this? This is an aside, but I remember Mel saying, in lecture, but also when we spoke, that joy is just something that's a fruit of practice. It's not necessarily something that you work to cultivate, but it arises more naturally out of practice. And I guess I think of that as different from the Brahmavihara practice of cultivating sympathetic joy, which is a little bit different from the way he was describing joy to us. Are there hands going up? I remember there's some story that a Tibetan teacher asked somebody, I think Rabbi Tasahara said, what stages do you have in your practice?

[58:20]

And he said, Actually, our main thing is that we try not to fall into steps and stages. And to Ben, teacher, from his point of view, that's a really advanced Tibetan practice. After you do all the stages and the steps and stages, then you leap off the 100-foot pole. So I guess the question for us is, are we just sort of sitting here like lumps with our minds wandering there? It's a kind of a little line, close, what do you call it, line there between not cultivating anything and just sort of, I don't know. The interesting thing that goes with Vipassana and goes in practice discussion, the teacher will, you know, show it to you, you need to work on it. That's good.

[59:23]

I like that idea. That's great. Catherine. First I just need to say that the story of the things that just said really spoke to me so I just need to connect with that and I feel like that's saying what I've been hearing tonight which is if you can't stop and have your authentic emotion, that there's nothing to cultivate. I mean, we get in a lot of trouble if we think we're cultivating states of mind that are going to save us from those emotions, because there's a light primary. And you just have to go there first, and there's a freedom and a release in that. It was late because I was in school and whatever and I brought a lot of distraction with me and it dropped at the door because when I came in the energy was so beautiful.

[60:28]

Everybody was very open and sharing and it was just quite wonderful. And then we did the break and came back and with the lists I got back into my head and of course and that's where I'm hugely distracted. And I found two things happening. One is when I started trying to figure out what I was doing, you know, what is coming up, what would I label it, what is it to reflect on it, what would you cultivate, I mean, you know, that it was just a big mess in there just like it was before I walked in the door. Another version of what I just left, you know. It's so painful to me to be in that state when I'm... it's like... So then I would start doing what I do in Zazenta Center.

[61:28]

And then I was naming it. And I realized, okay, so you would call this state of mind restlessness. I call it distraction. And you would cultivate concentration. But cultivating concentration you know, or reflective, I mean, you know, whatever you do, just concentrating, I mean, just focusing on my breath was the place to come back and be here. I don't know if I'm making any sense, but there was a moment when I stopped trying to cultivate anything. So for you, the whole cultivating concept is just there's nothing helpful about that so far. And then when I just said, oh, I can't bear this, and I started, and I had to count my breath, and I only do that when I'm desperate. I don't have to count it unless I'm in bad trouble. And so then I ask, what's going?

[62:30]

And I have to count 10, 9, 8, because if I count 1, 2, 3, I'll go up to 50 before I notice. Wow. So if you turn around and start at 10, you can get down to 1, and you realize you're there. a wonderful Roshi talk. It's been very helpful in critical times. So I was doing it, and there was a moment after I'd done about, like, three of those 10s, when I came up, was here, and I suddenly was aware of all these beautiful bodies sitting with me, and the light, and just our body, and it was wonderful, and it was so fleeting, It was worth the whole thing, but that's all I got. Then what happened was, now I get to tell about that. How do you talk about it?

[63:32]

How do you explain it? What do you mean? How do you make a good thing out of it? you know, said this before the bell rang. Well, I'm glad you said so, because what I was thinking was, okay, who's going to be brave and say they hated it? And I think, I believe in inquiry. I think, you know, I know there are times when I really use that. And I know that there, it was just, I wanted to really ask the difference between actual concentration that we just do anyway in zazen versus reflecting on our cultivating concentration. I don't think there's any difference, do you? Just doing it because we know it's a tool that we can use is what we're talking about. There's not something else that we do. Right. None of it. Does anybody think so? No. No miracle I'm creating. I think that's fine.

[64:34]

You know, in the the foundations of mindfulness that's mindful of mind in mind. I think it's called counting the breath, right? Well, yeah, I mean it's just doing it, entering it directly without having to think about it. No layers. And because you've learned that it helps, but I mean, that's that whole query about, you know, outcomes and tools. I mean, you learn that you have this tool that can give you some rest. And you'll know if you have a gaining idea because you'll feel discouraged. And if you don't feel discouraged, that means you're just using the tool. Right. Well, are we done?

[65:39]

What time is it, Ross? It's two minutes to go. All right. Any last words? The sad thing felt like investigation to me. The investigation is where we say what it is and what Catherine brought up. that I'm really getting the feeling that these are, they're tools we use, but they're also things that arise because we do zazen. It's like Alan said, our zazen includes everything. And I just keep going back to the seven factors of enlightenment being part of the dharmas. That they're among the things that arise along with greed and along with hearing and along with life is suffering and and being mindful of them when they arise and being able to recognize them simply and directly is really liberating.

[66:45]

And that when I'm bound by the list, I was sitting here and I was really close, I just, you know, I was trying to avoid like checking the list to see where I was, but they're already there. arising and falling, and if we can notice them, it's a good step in cultivating for me to just even notice. Notice. Okay.

[67:17]

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