So this is an introduction. And where R. Kuhn talks about how he came about to value Broussard's Five Racks. If you look at John Woo in The Golden Age of Zen, John Woo explains tozones by ranks, historically. And he said, well, it's a kind of beginner's, you know, to kind of explain to beginners who don't seem to get it, you know. But Hockerine felt that it was like the greatest thing, you know, to understand. So you have this great spectrum of Various teachers value it.

[01:12]

So that's why we're studying Hakuin and not John Woo. We're studying Hakuin, how Hakuin understands it. And also because Hakuin is so entertaining. up to where we were. Because it's been so long since we did this. And since you can't remember it, it doesn't matter. So I really like the way he talks. And so it's hard to know what anybody got from the last class. So here he says, so how come you know

[02:18]

was born in 1689, and he died in 1769. So, and he resurrected the Bunzai school in Japan, which was degenerate at the time, had degenerated, and he codified a kind of colon curriculum, studying the colon's collections. And so that was his style, and that style still exists in the Rinzai school, as you know. So he talks about the junior samadhi, and then he talks about the five ranks. What is it? He said, we do not know by whom the junior samadhi is composed. Actually, it goes beyond Tozan.

[03:23]

Well, Tozan, I think it was Tozan. Because the Hokyo-zamae in the Sando-kai contains the elements that were expanded in the Hokyo-zamae. So, we don't know from whom the Jōmyō Samadhi was composed, exactly. From Sekito, or Shō, Yakusan Osho and Ungun Osho. Do we know who those three people are? Have you ever heard their names before? Yes. It was transmitted from master to master and handed down within the secret room. Never have its teachings been regularly disclosed until now. So, you know, it was very common in the past, and I think in all religious practices, that monks kept a secret teaching. I think the Bible was not allowed to be read by lay people for many centuries.

[04:26]

The Bible was the property of the monks. And I can't remember when it became public. Well, in England, it was the dawn of the 17th century. Yeah, Penn James Version, probably the popular... Charles II. Father of 17 bastards and book of common prayer. So I think all religions, there's always been a secret kitchen and a secret room and that kind of thing. And there's some property amongst. But everything is kind of public because we're more public later on. I don't know if the Hokyo Zamai and the Sando Kai have been chanted by people in Japan.

[05:30]

I don't know. So when Tatsugane came to Tassajara to lead our practice series in 1970, Shuso, Peter Schneider, kept talking to him a lot, you know, and he said, he wanted to know if we could chant most of these things. And Tatsuko said, OK. And so we chanted them first in Japanese and then little by little translated them. So it was transmitted from master to master and handed down within the secret room. Never have its teachings been willingly disclosed until now. After it had been transmitted to Tozan, Osho. Osho means priest. He made clear the gradations of the five ranks within it and composed a verse for each rank in order to bring out the main principle of the dharma.

[06:31]

Surely the five ranks is a porch on the midnight road, a ferryboat at the riverside when one has lost one's way. But alas, he says, the Zen gardens of recent times are desolate and barren. So that's like his environment around him at that time, right? Directly pointing to the ultimate, Zen is regarded as nothing but benightedness and foolishness, and that supreme treasure of the Mahayana, the jewel mirror of Samadhi's five ranks, of the apparent and real is considered to be only the old and broken vessel of his antiquated house, meaning the Soto school. So, as you know, in Japan, historically, from before the 13th century, when Dogen was born, each patriarch of the different schools

[07:49]

studied only their style. And there was not much interaction between the various schools. So no one pays any attention to this anymore, he says. Today's students are like blind people who have thrown away their steps, calling them useless baggage. For themselves, they stumble and fall into the mud of heterodox views They cannot get out until death overtakes them. They never know that the five ranks is the ship that carries them across the poisonous sea, surrounding the rank of the real, the precious real that demolishes the impregnable prison house of the two voids. So I'm going to quit that a little bit. He's quoting the sixth ancestor. The sixth ancestor's poem. which I've often read to you about fault-finding about the transgression called fault-finding and at the end he says something like and if the people just keep stumbling on and on until death overtakes them without really having realization and they don't know that the flight ranks of this ship and he talks about

[09:18]

The true Dharma is the ship, the big ship that carries you across the chasm between Samsara and Nirvana. So, he says, they never know that the five ranks is the ship that carries them across. They are the vessel, right? That carries them across the poison sea, surrounding the rank of the real. the precious wheel that demolishes the impregnable prison house of the two voids. Now, what are the two voids? Two voids are the voidness of self and the voidness of dharmas. That's basic Mahayana Buddhism. In other words, even though it seems like there is a self, there isn't one. And even though it seems like dharmas have a reality, an independent reality, they don't.

[10:25]

So those are the two voids. The voidness of self and the voidness of dharmas. This is basically my standpoint. Because in the so-called Hinayana standpoint, Although there is no self, the self is not real. The dharmas are real. So that is one standpoint like the Sarvastivayan school. The standpoint of the Sarvastivayan school, which was based in Kashmir, was this way back. But they claim that dharmas do exist, even though self is void. Dharmas are not.

[11:28]

In the Mahayana school, self is void, dharmas are also void. So this is what he's talking about. So they do not know the important road of progressive practice. They are not teaching. Therefore, they sink into the stagnant water of Srivaka-hood or Pracheka-Buddha-hood. They fall into the black pit of withered sprouts and decayed seeds. Even the land of Panda-Buddha would find it difficult to save them." So this is his kind of rhetoric. What's the name of it, Srivaka-hood and Pracheka-Buddha-hood? Srivaka is like Arhat, a follower of the Buddha. And Panchagya Buddha is a hermit.

[12:32]

Someone who has realization, but they practice as a hermit. So they don't have the Mahayana spirit of coming out of their shell and sacrificing that for the sake of all beings. Okay, so they're always criticized, right? Mahayana Buddhism is always criticizing Vishravakas, in particular, Buddhists. So then he talks about his own relationship with his teacher, Shogyurojin. It's a little bit of a tongue twister. That into which I was initiated 40 years ago in the room of Shoju, who he considers the teacher that really gave him the most, I shall now dispense as the almsgiving of Dharma.

[13:33]

When I find a superior person who is studying the true and profound teaching and has experienced the great depth, I shall give this secret transmission to him. since it was not designed for people of medium and lesser ability. So take heed and do not treat it lightly. As we know, the great death is like the dull and expressed death of a dropping body and mind. Death of the ego, so to speak. So how vast is the expanse of the sea of the doctrine How manifold are the gates of the teachings? You say Dharma gates are boundless, right? That's the way I'm referring to it. Among these, to be sure, are a number of doctrines and orally transmitted secret teachings, yet never have I seen anything to equal the perversion of the five ranks, the carping criticism, the tortuous explanations, the adding of branch to branch,

[14:46]

the piling up of entanglement upon entanglement. The truth is that the teachers who are guilty of this do not know for what principle the five ranks was instituted. So, by Ockwin's time, the five ranks had become a kind of play toy of the intellectuals. So, it no longer had... it kind of lost its vitality of directness. And this is why Dogen didn't use it directly, although he presented the Five Ranks in a way that was vital, but without calling it that. And I've read that to you. It's embedded in the Ginjo Koan. Or it could be that our patriarchs delivered themselves of these absurdities in order to harass their posterity unnecessarily. For a long time I wondered about this.

[15:48]

Maybe so. Maybe not so. But when I came to enter the room of Shonju, the rhinoceros of my previous doubt suddenly fell down dead. Boom. Do not look with suspicion upon the five ranks, saying that it is not the directly transmitted oral teaching of the Tozan line. You should know that it was only after he had completed his investigation of Tozan's verses that Shouju gave his acknowledgment of the Five Legs. After I had entered Shouju's room and received the transmission from him, I was quite satisfied. But, though I was satisfied, I still regretted that all teachers had not yet clearly explained the meaning of the reciprocal interpenetration of the apparent and the real. They seem to have discarded the words reciprocal interpenetration and paid no attention whatever to them.

[16:57]

Thereupon the rhinoceros of doubt once more raised its head. Now I have a footnote here I want to read. Let's see if it's worth telling you about. Okay. This footnote is simply the way the Five Ranks is presented in the Hokyō-samae. And I will read that, just to keep us on track. It's like the six lines of a double-split hexagram. The relative and absolute integrate. Pi on the left, they make three, like the five flavored herbs, like the five-pronged vajra, wondrously embraced within the real.

[18:02]

Drumming and singing come up together. So this is like reciprocal interpenetration. drumming and singing come up together, relative and absolute, interpenetrate, reciprocally. All of you who wish to plumb this deep source must make the investigation by yourself. This isn't secret? Maybe, but maybe secret. Secret. You should exert your own effort. You should investigate through your own effort. I would put it that way, with your entire body. My own formula has extended over these 30 years. Do not take this to be an easy task. Even if you should happen to break up the family and scatter the household, do not consider this enough. This is the extreme of saying goodbye and leaving home.

[19:07]

vow to investigate the secret teachings of the five ranks to the end. For the past eight or nine years or more, I have been trying to incite all of you who boil your daily gruel over the same fire meat to study this great matter thoroughly. This is like, you know, a hobo. Hobo. Bo means Buddha. And ho means Dharma. But ho also means bum. So it's like a thermal bomb. I used to see him out there with his campfire. So, for the past eight and a half years or more, I've been trying to reincite all of you who have belonged to Daily Grill over the same fire with me to study this great matter thoroughly, but more often than not, I've been taking it to be the doctrine of another house.

[20:10]

and remained indifferent to it. Only a few among you have attained understanding of it." He's talking to his students, his monks. How deeply this grieves me. Have you never heard the gates of Dharma are manifold? I thought I entered them all. How much the more should this be true for the main principle of Buddhism and the essential road of Sanzen. Sanzen has means different things in different places. Sanzen is like visiting a teacher to present your understanding as a koan. But for Dogan, it actually means zazen. Sanzen is zazen for Dogan. So, here's the first teaching. Which is, in order to directly experience the four wisdoms, which are actually the four aspects of Prajna.

[21:18]

They are also called the four Prajnas. So, what is Prajna? Prajna is expressed as the four wisdoms, which I'll explain again. So, Junroshi, his teacher, has said, in order to provide a means whereby students might directly experience the Four Wisdoms, the ancestors, in their compassion and with their skill in devising expedience, first instituted the Five Ranks. What are the so-called Four Wisdoms? They are the Great Perfect Mirror Wisdom, the Universal Nature Wisdom, the marvelous observing wisdom, and the perfecting of action wisdom. Those are the four wisdoms. They're universal in nature.

[22:21]

It's called sometimes great equality. I usually call it the great equality. The wisdom of great equality. And marvelous observing wisdom, and the perfecting of action wisdom. So, I one time gave you a chart that has the correspondence between the four wisdoms, the three bodies, and the five ranks. So actually, there are four different correspondences.

[23:23]

There's the correspondence of the five ranks, the eight levels of consciousness, the four wisdoms, and the three bodies. I don't think it's in the book, but in a separate new book. So, he says, Followers of the Way, he's going to start talking about the first rank. Followers of the Way, even though you may have pursued your studies in the threefold learning, threefold learning is discipline, meditation, and Shrila Samadhi and Wisdom and Prajna. Discipline, Meditation and Wisdom. Those are the three learnings of Buddhism.

[24:28]

The three baskets, actually. The three maya baskets. Sometimes called precepts. Samadhi and Prajna. Sometimes it's called Panya, but Panya means learning, whereas Pragya means wisdom. So Sila Samadhi and Pragya are the three. Practicing Dharma follows the way, even though you may have pursued your studies in the threefold learnings, continuously through many kalpas, if you have not directly experienced the four wisdoms, you are not permitted to call yourselves true children of Buddha. Well, that's pretty extreme.

[25:29]

And, of course, Hakaman is an extremist. But he likes to exaggerate. you know, and make a point. So he's making a point. Even though you haven't experienced it before, you can still call yourself a child of Buddha if you want to. I give you that permission. And Sentaku is not dead, by the way. So follow us away. If your investigations be correct and complete, at the moment you smash open the dark cave of the Eighth Auralanic Consciousness, the precious light of the Great Perfect Mirror of Wisdom instantly shines forth. But strange to say, the light of the Great Perfect Mirror of Wisdom is black like lacquer. This is what is called the rank of the apparent within the real. The apparent within the real means the apparent in the shadow of the real, or hidden within the real. The black dominates the white.

[26:36]

That's the first trend. So, if you're enlisting, this is incorrect and incomplete. At the moment you smash open the dark cave of the alaya consciousness. So, here we have to understand that the eight consciousnesses, the eight levels of consciousness, The eighth level of consciousness is the alaya vijnana, which is the consciousness which holds all the seeds of memory and has no particular interest in you, but simply is the seedbed of all of our experience. And it produces our actions given our habits and given our propensities.

[27:43]

Because every time we do something, a seed is planted or a seed is reinforced. So we have these seed beds of reinforced conditioning. And every time we do something, we plant a seed in that seed bed, and water a seed that's already there, and we keep doing the same stuff over and over again. So this is called the conditioned consciousness. The consciousness which is based on our conditioning. But actually, there are various theories about it. I'm explaining something very simplistically. There are two aspects of the life. One is the seeds that come with our birth and the acquired seeds. And so you can understand that there are seeds, you know, we each have propensities for doing things, right?

[28:49]

And these are the seeds that are, for one reason or another, maybe, you know, from some It's explained in various ways, but when you die, so to speak, the Aradhana and Manas, the self-consciousness, are reinstated in some other consciousness. I mean, in another So that when there's another birth which has the seeds of self and consciousness and propensities, it finds another brain.

[29:52]

Those seeds are have the ability to continue. But I think that it's more like genetics. Each person, as we experience our life, we create new genes which are carried into the next person, right? So how it all works, nobody knows exactly, but there's also a human generation. Each generation has its, depending on where we are in the world, each generation forms its own genetics that everybody shares. So it's kind of like this shared We share certain seeds that go with our society.

[31:04]

We just know certain things in our society that people in another society don't share. Those are planted in our alaya before we acquire certain seeds. So, there's already something to go on. In other words, it's not an original sin. It's original something, but it's not an original sin. Because there's nothing moral about it. Even though Buddhism is moral, immoral, and neutral. So the alive agona is the seedbed of all of our actions and thoughts and experience. And when we perform an activity, depending on the circumstances, we water the seeds that are there, which sprout and cause us to

[32:25]

act in the same way, in a similar way. So this is called habit energy and conditioning. So when he says, break open, you know, the black, smash open the dark cave of the great consciousness, he means to breaks the hold that the seventh consciousness has of the alive. The seventh consciousness is called Manas. Manas is like our sense of separate self or ego.

[33:27]

It's called false consciousness actually. But it has to function. And the function of the Manas is to send messages. Manas is a thinking consciousness. When we think about stuff, that's actually Manas. It's discriminating consciousness on the basis of ego or self. And its function is a messenger between the alaya and the next level of consciousness, which is mano vijnana. Vijnana means consciousness. The sixth consciousness level of consciousness is also a discriminating consciousness, but it's not an ego.

[34:30]

And it discriminates between the various sensory doors. So when you say, I see that floor, I see the floor. Seeing is registered by the sixth consciousness. Hearing is registered by the sixth consciousness. Feeling, touching, smelling, all those sense doors not controlled but cognized by the sixth consciousness which also is a thinking consciousness but it's a discriminating consciousness that has no idea of self so this is how we make the distinction between what we see and what we hear but it's also possible to hear through the nose and to see through the ear.

[35:38]

But I'm not going to explain that, because I can't. So, these are the alaya consciousness, the manas consciousness, the mana vijnana, and the five sense consciousnesses. Altogether that's eight. Five senses. Mind consciousness. Self consciousness. and the seedbed, alaya. So, smashing open the alaya means turning around the consciousnesses so that they become wisdom. This is called parvrtti, or turning on the basis. When there is something called enlightenment, enlightenment occurs when the five, when the eight consciousnesses are turned, turned around, and they become the four Wisdoms.

[36:46]

Because when there's enlightenment, the expression of enlightenment is the four Wisdoms. The Wisdom of the Mirror Wisdom becomes And the alaya, when it's transformed, becomes the great mirror wisdom, which is what he's saying. The mirror has no mind of its own. Am I saying that right? The mirror doesn't discriminate. In other words, when the mirror sees something, when something passes across the face of the mirror, the mirror doesn't distort it. So when we see things, when we look at our world, our world is always distorted. We don't see as it is. Suzuki Roshi, I was always saying, you should see as it is.

[37:51]

Practice is to see things as it is. But we don't. We only see things according to our bias. Right. But over and over again, you've taught us to see both sides. And that's what the mirror does. Both sides. Of whatever is under consideration. Yes, we should see both sides of whatever is under consideration. But the mirror just sees. In other words, there are no sides for the mirror. The mirror just sees. everything as it is, which is very hard, because we always see things discriminated. So in discriminating, we should see both sides. When we discriminate, which we should, we are always doing, we should be able to see two sides, at least, or more.

[38:58]

When Dodian talks about seeing, he always presents 10 or 12 sides. And he presents 2 or 3 which seem absurd. But he leaves no stone unturned. But the mirror just sees. That's all. So, when you hear a sound, it's just this sound. When you hear the bird cheeping, cheep cheep. The mirror just hears, cheep cheep. The sixth consciousness says, that's a bird. But the mirror doesn't say anything. The mirror just hears, cheep cheep. And that cheep cheep is not cheep cheep. Yes.

[40:02]

Without discrimination. Nancy? Could it be called reflection rather than mirror? No. Well, yes, I see what you're saying. Reflection. Not in the sense of reflecting back on something. Yeah, reflection. Just reflection. So, each one of us is which reflects things, right? You are reflected in my consciousness. Well, actually what I see is a reflection. When I look out, I see reflections. When I hear, I hear reflections. Does the sound go to the ear, or does the ear go to the sound? The ancestor says, all is in complete stillness. It seems to be a problem of talking about the mirror, because you need to talk about, you can't escape dualistic language there, and we should try to escape dualistic language there.

[41:19]

Maybe in the prior consciousness, dualistic language still holds to some extent discrimination, If you say the mirror just sees, it's already... the mirror sounds like somebody, like somebody's seeing. Right. So, the way you experience that is exotic. Yeah. We're just talking, so I was just trying to imagine there would be a way to speak of this without falling into the mistakes of language. Well, I don't know. Do a big shout. It's only poetry. Dogen says a sneeze, a big sneeze is an expression of enlightenment. A mirror also sees clearly what is dual.

[42:40]

It knows this is duality. When the duality crosses the mirror, the mirror knows this is duality. So, in other words, it's just being unbiased. I'm totally unbiased to see how something really is rather than the way we think it is. So we can say that. And even though it's a secondary, it's an explanation, accept it as an explanation. So then he says, having attained the great perfect mirror of wisdom, you now enter the rank of the real within the apparent. So this is the other, the second circle, right? Where the real, the absolute is hidden within what is apparent.

[43:46]

So the light side is obvious and the dark side is hidden. So it's like the phases of the moon, right? Like the phases of the moon. Now it's full moon. But the dark side is on the other side of the moon, even though you don't see it. That's the second rank? Yeah. Sometimes it's reversed. Sometimes it's reversed. You can reverse them better. That second rank sounds to me the way I hear that description. It sounds like mundane consciousness. Well, it's entering a world of duality. mundane consciousness. You can say that, yeah. It's the realm of form. So having attained the great perfect mirror of wisdom, in other words, you have a basis.

[44:50]

The basis is now the absolute. In other words, you understand? The ocean. Let's look at it this way. The ocean. Now the waves are apparent. In the first one, there were very few waves. And you just saw the ocean. Here, the waves take over. And you just see the waves, but you don't see the ocean as a whole. Or, you have a pond. and there are no ripples. Then you throw in the stone and you have ripples. So this is the realm of ripples. Where you see the ripples, your attention goes to the ripples. So is that the everyday consciousness that most people, 99.999% of humanity walks around their whole life in?

[45:56]

Yeah. But it's also the realm of enlightenment. of the interconnectedness of both, because the ripples are just the activity of the fond. So it's not like they're separate, it's just that that's what's apparent, the apparent and the real. It's not really two different things. It's just one is the activity of the other. So, having attained the great perfect mirror wisdom, you now enter the rank of the real and the apparent. When you have accomplished your long practice of the Jeweled Mirror Samadhi, you directly realize the universal nature wisdom and for the first time enter the state of the unobstructed inner penetration

[47:05]

of noumenon and phenomena. The ocean is noumenon. The waves are phenomena. The pond is noumenon. The ripples are phenomena. So then when we have the enlightenment, you realize the universal nature. Universal nature is sometimes called the nature of equality. This is like horizontal. You realize, in other words, your ego or seventh consciousness is dropped. And instead of seeing everything according to self-centeredness, that self-centeredness is no longer the center of manas.

[48:11]

Manas is no longer directing traffic. And you understand, you experience the equality. This is like what most people have an enlightenment experience, so-called. This is what they experience. They experience the equality of everything, of noumenon and phenomenon. We say oneness. That's the expression of oneness. When there's no longer self-centeredness, there's nothing to differentiate. But there's still something to differentiate. That's only one side. But this disciple must not be satisfied here. but must enter into the intimate acquaintance with the rank of the coming from within the real.

[49:14]

That's the third circle. That's like a circle with a dot in the middle. Coming from within the real. After that, by depending upon the rank of the arrival at mutual integration, that person will completely prove the marvelous observing wisdom and the perspective of action wisdom and at last reach the rank of the unity attained and after all come back to sit among the totals, the coals and ashes. So he's putting all the rest of them together in one paragraph. So the sixth consciousness becomes the marvelous observing wisdom And the marvelous observing instant is vertical. Hierarchical. You acknowledge the hierarchical nature of each individual thing. So you have equality this way and hierarchy this way.

[50:20]

You need both. If everything is simply equal, that's not enough. That's great, but it's not enough. There also has to be And hierarchy in what sense? Hierarchy exists. It's not something you make up. It means the relationship of each thing to everything else. I can see that as distinctness. Distinctness of everything. But I don't get it in the sense of hierarchy as one thing above or superior to. It's not a matter of superior or inferior. It's simply a matter of where everything is. So, you don't have to think of it that way if you don't want to. Sometimes, you know, we have a conditioned response to the word hierarchy. And our conditioned response to the word hierarchy means somebody is the boss, and somebody else is the boss, and all that.

[51:24]

That's just one use of the word hierarchy. In botany, a flower is created through its hierarchy. There's the stem, and the leaves, and the stem, the leaves, and the leaves of the flower, and all these little parts. And they all are equal. Some are more equal. The hierarchy is like the relationship between the parts? The hierarchy is the functional relationship between the parts. That's different from superior and inferior. Yeah. Sometimes it's called superior and inferior, but we're not trying to make a judgment on... No, I'm really trying to know whether hierarchy is a satisfying word for us to use together. Yeah, it may not be. Um, it certainly exists within any organization.

[52:35]

You cannot have. There's no such thing as an organization without hierarchy. She's bored. You think that it's not hierarchical. That claims to be the hierarchy. That's not quite true. And when you describe, sorry, do you not want to be stopped in your... Well, yeah, you know, we can use any other word you want. I don't want to discuss that because it takes too much time in this particular context. Yeah. Choose anything you can. It just means the comparative nature of things. Or how each thing exists independently, except that nothing exists independently. But there is an independent nature of things, which describes how each thing exists by itself.

[53:45]

So it's compared with everything else. It's got to be comparative. This is non-comparative. And this is comparative. If you only have one, then you leave out the other. And right there where they both meet is where you are. How everything exists. So, you may not be better than an ant, or greater than an ant, or as intelligent But you're big, and that is little. So there's some comparative, you know, that's how we describe things. Also, when we see the nature of all the individual things, we see it, we see those things as empty. So to see in that way,

[54:50]

Is this the same as what you were talking about in the Genjokan as the position of each dharma? Yes, each dharma exists in its own dharma position. Yes. Which doesn't interfere with any other thing. So for me, I'm experiencing this as a lot of constructs. Yeah, it's a construct. And so to me, anything that's a construct is really not the experience of Ben. For me, that's my way of viewing Ben. But that doesn't mean this doesn't have value.

[55:58]

I just can't make any sense of it or follow it. So I'm wondering, since I don't understand it even to use it, how do you use it? How does it function in the world in a useful way in the Zen world for you? This is just, for me, it's constructs, and I don't even understand really what they're pointing to. And maybe I'm not trying hard enough, but I'm not getting anything out of it. Yeah, for me, it opens my mind. So I don't worry about what I get out of it. I'm not studying it to get something out of it. But I'm not even getting the opening line part. So I guess I'm just trying to understand, what is it that you, how is it used for you? I'm not using it. It's not used for me. Because then you can look at a flower and have your mind open.

[57:01]

That's correct. That's exactly what this is talking about. I don't, I don't understand it. I don't care. What am I supposed to say, that you don't understand it? Well, it's like, it seems like it's thinking. It's a lot of thinking. And I don't, and for me it's been... You don't think. Thinking is... Do you think? Of course. You think all the time. But thinking, not all the time. But thank you for sharing. When you see me, I see you as thinking all the time. Okay. So if you complain about thinking... That's not actually my experience, but thank you for knowing exactly what's going on inside of me. I don't have to, you know, I'm just saying that I'm not, I don't, I want to know how you use this. It's like, what is it? I don't use it. What is the value to you? I don't use it. You don't use it. Why would you teach it if you don't need it? I don't know. I'm just doing the best I can.

[58:03]

To me it's so beautiful. To me it's just a beautiful flower, just a beautiful way to express what's going on in That's what it is to me. I don't know if it helps me or helps you. To me it's just a beautiful way to express what I feel goes on inside of me. When we talk about ego and all these things, what are we talking about?

[59:13]

Where do you locate that? Ego doesn't really exist. It's a construct. Yeah, so how do you describe your construct? Have you let go of all your constructs? Well, I don't know if I want to add another one. Has anyone thought of all your constructs? I don't mind it being a construct. It doesn't bother me. I'm always thinking in terms of constructs. Why should I be bothered that it's a construct? Of course it's a construct. It's a model. That's exactly what it is. It's a model of consciousness. It's a model of how consciousness works. Don't you somehow take it beyond just a construct? It's not just a construct. There are millions of constructs.

[60:17]

There's a construct which is a model of the way consciousness works. Would you say though, in your... For me it would be that there's something more than just, oh this is a thought, this is a wonderful thought or a very articulate thought. But this thought, it actually changes your way of seeing a certain experience. It does help me think about how consciousness works. But only think about it, not... Well, what do you mean only think about it? I didn't say, oh don't you think about it. I just said it helps me to think about how consciousness works. I think that's the value of it, if you want to talk about value.

[61:23]

You see, instead of five ranks or these kinds of different concepts of consciousness you've been playing with, Is it similar to, like, the oxfording pictures? Well, the oxfording pictures are, you know, the five ranks. They are? And the ten ranks. I didn't know that. The five ranks and the ten oxfording pictures. You know, and as I explained before, at the time of Torzon, Isan and other teachers were using circles to help him in teaching. It's interesting to hear and feel whatever Denise is trying to say. I respected her kind of discontent and then I liked your answer when you said, at first

[62:35]

You were a little bit like, well, I don't care. That didn't seem so right on. But then when you said, I like it because it's beautiful. It's like a flower. It seems like the things that help us and open us are things that can strike us in a way that's more like our beauty centered. The terminology in what you're talking about, it seems so abstract. The Oxford in Pictures might be able to strike us in a more aesthetic way, in a way that kind of slips past our cognitive stuff. I think there's just a little more difficulty for us with these very abstract sounding concepts, even though they're actually referring to something alive, right? That's why I chose Hockewin, because Hockewin is the least abstract.

[63:40]

But as we go along, I need to explain what he's talking about. Otherwise, you don't get it. So, every time he says something, I want to make that clear, what he's talking about. In order to do that, I have to go through, you know... But to me, the model of the 8 Consciousnesses is just crystal clear. It's not abstract to me. Well, the eight consciousnesses, that's not in question. What's for me, I don't understand, you know, the five ranks. I haven't followed it at all. And I'm not that stupid a person. I'm pretty, a little bit smart, a little bit, you know, and I can understand lots of spiritual material. And I haven't been able to track it. And that doesn't make any sense to me. But here's what I get from you. is that you always complain. You're always complaining. Every time I hear you say something, it's always a complaint.

[64:45]

I've never heard you say anything that was not a complaint. OK. You know what? I'm going to end the complaint, dear sir. I'm so sorry. I need to be able to ask a question. It's like I don't ask that many questions. But if you don't want me here, I'm happy to go. That's all right. I'm happy to go. I don't want to bother you with my questions. Well, I didn't say I didn't want you here. Well, then you said you always complain. Everything you say is a complaint. So you always say that I'm complaining. It's just you saying that I'm complaining. Another teacher wouldn't have to see it as a complaint. So. But I don't I don't really like that kind of response. I haven't figured out how to. Well, it's just that I don't understand this, and I'm not learning something from it. And I'm trying to ask you, OK, how can I get something out of this? Or what am I? I'm here for not just no reason. I came here tonight.

[65:46]

I could be doing something else. And I'm not here, like I'm here trying to get, and if you want, I'll just be quiet, and I don't have to tell you. I'm not understanding it. And I'm a long-term Zen student, and it doesn't make any sense to me. I practiced in con practice for 20 years, and this makes no sense to me. Just listening to it over and over again is what I have hoped will help me to understand it. I also don't understand it, but that doesn't bother me very much. I understand it a little bit sometimes, I think. And I think that hearing it over and over again is the best way. I understand that this is about some form of integration that you're talking about and that's it. And I think that sometimes to take Zen into an area of like where you're creating more constructs is just not what Zen is about. Yeah, well, you know, just sit back there. No problem. You don't have to understand it.

[66:49]

You really don't. All you have to do is just sit back there. No words, no explanations, no problems, like that? Really? Truly? What I'm doing is just trying to expose something, you know, like the history. I didn't make this up. This is like, you know, considered It's been considered by all of our predecessors and found to be something that is helpful for people. Okay, first of all, it's not all of our predecessors, but it's some. Yeah, some of our predecessors. And I guess the point I'm trying to make is, to me then, it's very clear and direct and it's not about making more constructs.

[67:52]

And that's all. That's why I have an issue with that. But, Denise, I think that these five regs are describing experience. They're not just a thought or a picture. No, I understand they're trying to. They're a description of people's experience. I understand they're trying to explain different types of manifestation of practice. I understand that. And I really echo, at least for me as a newer person, what Paul's saying, is I have such a desire for my intellectual faculties to gain mastery. I mean, that's so reinforced culturally. And what I find with this is I actually like it more than the Oxford pictures, those big-tongued aversion to this. I don't get it. But it's like I let it wash over me. And I loosen myself up that I don't have to figure it out. And there is more repetition than an intellectually focused, I'm going to get it.

[68:57]

And I feel like there's something about zen that is about unraveling something that we don't get at all. That feels very zen to me, that I feel in this. But I feel what you're talking about. I've had those feelings. But what I've found is I just let it wash over. And there are moments that I feel something that resonates in that moment when I'm thinking, what the heck? I don't get it. But I just let it wash over. Satoroshi, how much of this chart would the ancient masters from Sekido on use in the secret room with their best students? Well, I think that Often a teacher will say, when a student comes in and you show them something, they recognize it right away.

[70:04]

And then you can work with that student. But how much? What subject would they start with? Anything. Nothing special or anything. But there are students and teachers who have affinity. And when there's that affinity, then you can develop something, work with something. So that would be Often, you know, in the past, historically, the teacher would say to the student, you can enter my room anytime, because there's an affinity.

[71:11]

that were considered something for esoteric, maybe. So the student would understand that, but then the teacher could help develop their understanding because of the affinity. If there's no affinity, you can't do anything. So it doesn't make any difference what it is, just as long as they're on the same wavelength. Right, that's right. And this is like, you know, ancient Buddhism, right? It's not even Zen, it's just like, this comes from Vasubandhu, so we're actually In a way, we're studying Vasubandhu's teaching. And Vasubandhu is considered one of the chief patriarchs of our Zen lineage.

[72:36]

So what is Vasubandhu's teaching? That's what I'm presenting through Tozan. I'm presenting Vasubandhu's teaching, Tozan's teaching, Sekito's teaching, Ungan's teaching. It's all there. That's what I'm presenting to you. You may be interested in it, you may not. Some people just aren't interested at all. Like Tozan and Sozan. Sozan and Tozan had this kind of understanding of each other. So they both developed this flat rank. Ungo, Dojo, who continued Tozan's line, wasn't interested in it at all. And we don't use Sozon's name in the lineage. We use Ungo's name in the lineage. So if this interests you, fine. If it doesn't interest you, fine.

[73:39]

It's not necessary. You're welcome. I might stop for a moment. Just like what you were saying, it reminded me of one of your favorite things that I ever heard. When I heard a talk by the Dalai Lama, and he gave this speech, and it was in the Greek theater here in Berkeley, and had all these thousands of people hanging on his every word. And then at the end of it, he said in that little up and down voice of his, he said, if I've said anything that you like, and you can use, please use it. And if not, It was so kind of sweet and gracious and acknowledged that we might not find what he said useful, and that was really okay. Yeah, exactly. So that's what I'm doing.

[74:42]

I'm just presenting their teachings, which I happen to really enjoy. I find that they're really very deep and enjoyable. and renewing. But for some people it doesn't make sense. Zen is just directly entering the realm of enlightenment. You don't need it. hear what's important about it to you so that maybe I would love to get something out of it. Yeah, well everything I say is really interesting to me. All of his references are interesting to me because I've studied, I think I've studied quite a bit of stuff about Zen and Buddhism and when he says something

[75:49]

It reflects all those things, you know, that just pop, [...] fall into place. And that's interesting, you know. It's exciting that he's connecting with all these other teachers in the past. Talk about the ancestors, you know. He's quoting all these people, not saying it, all that. And to recognize that, I think it's and to know where he's coming from, very interesting. And so we're studying Huckabin, who would be the first to say, you don't need it. But he said, you do need it. Huckabin would be the first to say, just directly enter. Maybe for instance, Zen is just directly entering.

[76:52]

Of course. But here he's talking about this. So why is he doing that? Anyway, I just do it for my enjoyment and I hope that you enjoy it. But I find it exciting Huffman's humor is really well set forth in that little book that Kaz did called Penetrating Laughter. There's one self-portrait that he did, and it had a caption that said something like, one more time this stinking old monk is filling up a piece of paper. Damn! This is one more class.

[78:04]

Well, there's one more class this month. Oh, yes. And then next month. No. Then we have to figure out what to do next. Oh, isn't it? Usually then we just figure it out month by month. We do a six month set. This is a fifth. One more. And then we figure out what to do next. I mean, I feel that there's a lot that we haven't gone through. Plus, it's obvious that we could go over it because we've forgotten. Otherwise, you know, when you get to get some, then you can start discussing it. But I was also thinking, since it's a month at a time in distance, that you lose the continuity. And to just do one session is just one subject for one time.

[79:10]

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