The first thing I want to talk about this morning is Rona's question. As you remember, she asked me a question a couple of days ago, and then I said I would talk about it the next day, and then I was reminded at the end of the day by Ba to address her question, so I will. And as I remember your question, it was, What is reality? How do you define reality? Reminds me of last week. There was a a fair at the little park up here, the grassy area, and they had Ferris wheels and slides and so forth. So I took Daniel over there, and he said, Daddy, let's stop.

[01:00]

So okay. So we stopped, and they had these little the cars that go around in a circle, they're on a kind of turntable, and motorcycles, and boats, little boats that have outboard motors, and you get in and they go around in a circle. And so he was looking at the boats, you know, and he said, Daddy, what is reality? What does reality mean? Yeah, what is reality? And I said, well, I thought about it a minute, but, you know, he was, by that time he'd gotten into wanting to get on to something else, you know. But he usually stays with what he's, with his question, but, you know, he was so excited being in the park that he forgot about his question. But I was left with it.

[02:01]

And I thought, how am I going to, How can I explain reality to him using what's in front of me? So then I looked at the boats, and the boats were very nice little tin boats with little outboard motors. But actually, the way they ran was not by the outboard motor. They had wheels. They were going around a track on wheels. So if he'd stuck around, I would have said, see these boats, and when he was in the boat, you know, he was driving the boat, you know, and he thought, I'm really driving this boat. He knew he wasn't driving the boat, but he was pretending to drive the boat, you know, he had his hand on the wheel and he was having a great time. But, you know, it looks like the boat is being powered by the outboard motor and going around, but in reality, there's this wheel underneath the boat,

[03:06]

that's making it move, you know. So the boat's a kind of an illusion. And the reality is that the boat's on wheels. And, you know, the boat's on wheels. That's the reality. The reality is that there's something beneath appearances which is real. So, we keep looking for that something that's beneath what appears to be, that is actually making things work, that makes things what they really are. So, if we want to define reality, it's how are things really? What are they really?

[04:08]

What's behind the appearance? And is the appearance part of the reality? And it's what we've been talking about all the time in a certain way. We keep trying to get beyond appearance always to that little thing that's called the reality, you know. And so we keep reducing. And if you look at science, science is always trying to get beyond the appearance and find the reality that's common to every existence. And religion does the same thing. Religion is always trying to get beyond the appearance and find the one thing that's common to everything. The problem with that is that when we get into that mode of looking for the reality behind the appearance, we tend to disregard the appearance.

[05:34]

Or we tend to think that the appearance is meaningless or not so important. And Dogen has a very interesting a commentary on Bodhidharma's four disciples. You know the story of Bodhidharma and his four disciples. Eka, I can't remember the names of the other three offhand, but Eka was his main disciple, Taiso Eka, the one who caught up his arm, right, standing in the snow. But one time, Bodhidharma wanted to see who questioned his disciples to see what their understanding was. He had four disciples. So he questioned them as to the nature of reality.

[06:38]

And I cannot remember the three answers, their answers, offhand either, unless I think about it. So each one gave him a certain answer. And Eka came over. Well, let me explain it this way. The first one that gave the answer, the first one to answer, he said, you have my skin. Second one answered, he said, you have my flesh. Third one that answered, he said, you have my bones. And the fourth one, Eka, came over and just bowed and returned to his place. He said, you have my marrow. And Eka became his dharma heir. But Dogen says, if you think that Eka was right and all the others were wrong, you have a problem.

[07:44]

If you think that marrow is deeper than skin, or deeper than flesh or deeper than bones, you don't see all the way through. We want to see all the way through to the marrow, you know, to get to the bottom, the fundamental. but skin, flesh, and bones, also skin, flesh, bones, and marrow are equal. So, appearance, you know, what's on the surface isn't any less important than what's at the center. So if we want to define reality, we keep looking for the real thing in order to define reality.

[08:59]

But all we have to do is look around us. We can take it. There's an interesting comment by a Zen master whose name I can't remember. He said, don't peek at the sky through a little tube in order to find reality. in order to find, you know, to get at the essence. The essence is right in front of you. You don't have to look. It's not wrong to look through a little tube. It's fine to look through a little tube to see how little creatures, you know, get along. To see what that part of ourselves. But it's also right here in front of us, you know, in the coarse area, the coarse zone of life. It's right there. So any layer that we uncover also belongs to this thing that we call reality.

[10:08]

But that shouldn't stop us from looking deeper and deeper and finding the marrow. But the marrow goes from the top to the bottom, and the skin goes from the top to the bottom, and the flesh and bones go from the top to the bottom. So, I tend to follow Dogen's understanding, you know, seems... makes sense to me. The little boat, you know, even though the little boat is powered by wheels, it has its own reality, you know, which is beyond definition. And it's not separate from its wheels, even though it looks like it should be in the ocean.

[11:24]

So, does anybody else have a definition of reality? that they put up on ranches, I don't know what they call it, because cars can drive over it, and people can walk over it, and cows and horses can walk over it, but they think they can't. They're metal and they have holes in them. And the animal looks at it and says, I can't walk on that. It won't support me, or I'll fall through, or there's nothing there. And after they get used to it, metal cow guard and they won't cross them, then people can just paint stripes on the road and they won't cross that either. Yeah. Separating illusion. So we tend to separate, you know, illusion from reality.

[12:36]

And that But the illusion itself has a certain reality. So there's reality and illusion, or delusion, which are opposite each other, but they're both encompassed by ultimate reality. So that's why Dogen is always talking about going beyond enlightenment, going beyond our understanding. It was interesting to me that when Daniel forgot the question, then he got involved in his, what I didn't know, Dogen calls undivided activity. Right, he demonstrated.

[13:37]

For a different perspective, the Theravadins say that, it's different but it's not unrelated, that there are four paramatas, four realities. States of mind, and awareness itself, and matter, and nirvana. So it's like those are ingredients of yoga. But see, the Theravadins are elementalists and reductionists, actually. Very much in the same way that some scientists are reductionists. They reduce everything down to elements and say, this is it. This is all that exists. And Theravadins did the same thing. I mean, the Abhidhammas did the same thing. But it's pretty big. I mean, it's a necessary way of looking at things, but it's not the end of looking at things.

[14:53]

It's a necessary way to see. And the Theravadins reduce human being down to elements and say that's all there is, these elements, and that's the basis of our understanding. But it's not the complete understanding. because somehow it doesn't recognize illusion. Oh, the consciousness and states of mind? Consciousness and states of mind. Yes, consciousness is one building stone and states of mind is another. I mean, there's lots of illusions. Good, okay. I'll accept that. Thank you. Is there then a point in looking for the LA? Daniel could still enjoy the book without knowing that we all use this just a little game that we do? Well, it's at some point we have to question it. Because if we never question, you know, in order... Animals can just go, you know, on instinct.

[16:07]

But it's built into human beings to have self-consciousness about our world. And we need to have knowledge. So at some point, we start to question the reality around us. Because we see the illusion, the illusory part of our life. Pretty soon, actually. It doesn't take so long for us to see the illusory part of life, and then we start to question it. So it's just a natural process. I think we're kind of forced into it because if the boat stopped and they really thought it was the outboard motor, they could spend their lifetime trying to get the motor to work right now. Thank you.

[17:14]

impossible for you to prove that you are not dreaming. I mean, you feel that. You say, well, I think I had a dream, and I think I've awakened. I want to sleep in a dream. But if you try to prove that you are not dreaming, that can't be done. That's right, because as soon as you start to think, you dream. I have a question. You said seeking truth or divine through science. Defining. Religion. When you say that also two elements working together, it's also the same thing going up and down. You're saying it's different. Well, I'm not sure exactly. You're saying we're seeking truth or defining the scientific... And religion.

[18:55]

When you say that, both are... Both seeking element. Yes. The truth. Element. The element that's... includes everything, the smallest element that includes everything. But seeking through different ways. Different ways, yeah. Why do we have to go that far? That's what I said. That's what I was saying, that it's also right here on the surface. But you're saying, then why do we have to go that far? Yes, because both have to be balanced, you know, this way or whatever. Then science is more advanced than religion.

[19:59]

No, advanced. Religion cannot define. Right. And religion defines what science cannot define. Yes. So each one has its place. But science is ahead now, I think, physically. Just through physics, we can really define things that reason cannot really answer. Right. But there's a problem, you know, in that religion is not meant to define. physical reality. That's not the place of religion. Although in the past, you know, religion and science overlap a lot. But science is more to discover how the universe works.

[21:05]

And religion is to discover how we live according to reality. How human beings should live according to reality. Yes, but... Intuitively. Yes, I understand that. But, like, through Dogel says that we end up nothing. End up nothing? Yes. And the science also proves the same thing. The science way, same, end up same thing. But now, I think through science, they can express what this mapping is through numbers. If you need to know it through numbers, then that's fine. We need to know things. Some people are satisfied knowing intuitively. Other people are satisfied when they know it through numbers. And other people are satisfied when they know it through some other way. But it's fine, you know, maybe one proves the other.

[22:11]

It's fine too. But what is the meaning? The meaning is why we have to go, we have to ask questions all the time. Why? Why do we have to ask questions? You mean because science has proved everything already? So we don't need to ask questions? They haven't really proved, answered anything yet, no, but they're a little bit ahead. They came out of the same place, and they are saying it's the end of nothing. It's a nun. What are they ahead of? I think through religion, we can say it's the end of nothing. We can say it. But in living in this reality, we have to prove it. So they prove it through numbers. And how does religion prove it? Well, through breathing.

[23:19]

rational approach both on the part of religion and on the part of science. But within religion there is the experience of suchness which is not accounted for by a distinction between appearance and reality or by thinking about it rationally. And that's the place where science can't go. But we can't find it. That's a nice explanation. Even though I don't quite understand it. It sounds right to me. Science can't brush your teeth. They have to. You have to. I have machines. Science is ahead. Science is life. Oh, okay. Wait a minute. Well, how I could apply the notion of suchness in the situation of the story that you told, that, I mean, scientists would take a look at this boat on wheels, and the first thing that they say is, it's not a boat.

[24:59]

And then, if you wanted a further definition of what it is, boat on wheels has a reality of its own. And you could break it down into all its elements, you know, but that's not what Daniel was experiencing. He wasn't experiencing, oh, the boat on wheels got an outward motor, it's got a steering wheel and I'm not really steering because of this machine that's connected to a center spindle that's rolling everything around. That's, he was just experiencing being on this boat. And that To me. I understand what you said, but I still have a question.

[26:28]

Because both are equally important, both are the same, you cannot put one above the other. So, it sounds like naming is less important than just experiencing something. Maybe you don't mean to be that way, but I think we tend to put silence down because it's so cold, it's a defined technology. I see your problem. I mean, I see the problem here. You think we're putting down science. You think we're putting down science. Yeah. What made you think that? I guess because I tend to do things like that. No, we appreciate science very much.

[27:30]

I mean, I appreciate science very much. And I think most everyone here does. I think we all appreciate science. But I'm careful not to compare them because it's very sticky territory when you start comparing. That's all. So it puts me into the mode of defending religion. When you start defending science, then I have to start defending religion. And I don't want to do that. Michael? Here's the word of science. you bend your mind, you conform your mind to whatever regularities might exist and this or that aspect of nature.

[28:48]

You don't master science, I think, you become able to learn what was there all along in certain fields. But it's not really very different from other activities where you conform your mind to Boom. Very dangerous, like me and Quincy.

[30:34]

It's as good as daunting the cooking to describe reality. They want it hot. They both do it, and they both don't do it. Yes, that's right. They both do it, and they both don't do it. There's a wonderful story about a man who goes to a rabbi to complain about his wife. He says, she's yelling at me all the time. She's shrewd. so much trouble, and I'm such a wonderful person, and the rabbi looks at him and says, you're right. And then the man's wife comes in and says, my husband is so terrible, he's so lazy, I can't get him to do anything, he doesn't take care of anything, and I'm such a wonderful person, what a burden to have such a husband, and he looks at her and he says, you're right. And the rept and the rabbi's wife hears this, and she says, well, you know, this man came in and said his wife was terrible, you agreed with him. Oh, I thought you were going to give us the last word.

[31:45]

That's actually the last word. I can wait till tomorrow. What? I can wait till tomorrow. You can wait till tomorrow? No, we have to clear this up today. Okay, okay. The final word on reality. I'm wondering if this might be Dogen's commentary on the line in the Heart Sutra about having gone to the shore. I have a tendency to read into things, so I'm wondering if this might be another... To look for the reality behind me? Let's see. When riding a boat, if one watches the shore, one may assume that the shore is moving. But watching the boat directly, one knows that it is the boat that moves. We might never know if what we're doing or what we're perceiving is real. It's all like having gone, seen it from another, other shore, to actually see. Any standard that we set is also moving.

[32:50]

We set up standards. This is the unmoving standard. But the standard is also moving. It's like being in a boat and you want to mark your place there so that you'll come back tomorrow and you mark the spot on the boat. Right there is the spot where we are now. And we'll come back here tomorrow. So, the spot, you know, the boat is also moving. Everything's moving around. And as soon as we set up a standard, it's okay. as long as you know that that's not final. And religion is not final, science is not final, you know. Suzuki Roshi defined reality. I'll give you Suzuki Roshi's definition of reality.

[33:52]

Everything changes. So the only truth that you can count on is everything changes. That's what we were brought up on in Zen Center. It's our oatmeal. It's all he had to say. Everything changes. Question. Does Buddhism talk about reality of the soul? No, well, Buddhism rejects the reality of the soul as being illusory. So Buddhism

[34:54]

Instead of talking about an individual soul, that's why we say, you know, beings are, even though there are no sentient beings, we have to save, we save all sentient beings even though there are no sentient beings. No beings, really. Ultimately. But... Mind... But words, you know, we have words. There's only one being. with many expressions.

[36:13]

So sentient beings are many expressions of one being. So that's my Buddhist understanding. Many things are expressing themselves as expressions of one nature. But if you try to look for, take it apart and look for a soul, an individual soul, you won't find it. No self and other. No self and other. Ultimately. So, how to realize that in this coarse world where everything appears to be separate?

[37:53]

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