Thank you. Can you please unmute? All right. This may be your first talk here, is that true?

[02:54]

Yes, for many years. For many years. So Paul was a student of Suzuki Roshi's in the 1960s. And at his recommendation, he went to Japan and hold his skills as a Japanese carpenter turning learning those techniques. He received Dharma transmission from Kenjin Rev. Anderson in 1988 in Tassajara. And I see him as a master builder who's built some of the really fine and beautiful structures at Green Gulch in Tassajara and also various places around the Bay Area and around the world. I should say, I can't quite remember where we met, either at Green Gulch or Tassahara, but in 1989, Paul led a number of us on a journey in a practice period at Rinsulim, Suzuki-ronchi's temple in Japan.

[04:19]

And we made life very difficult for him. And so I'm glad that we're still on good terms. But just to say, in the last several months, since Paul has been retired and is really digging into his practice, we are really fortunate to have him practicing with us here at Brookly's End Center. And I view him as one of my teachers, and I think it's a real treasure that we have him in our community. So welcome, Paul. Thank you very much. Yes, in the late 80s, after my transmission and the question of what was I going to do, And I really liked what I did with Alan and his cohorts, the 10 of us went to Japan.

[05:28]

I really liked doing that because that was a way of making that bridge between Japan and America. And I thought I could do a retreat practice half the time and then do a building practice half the time, which is also something I love very much. But the building practice got ahold of me and ran away with me, and pretty soon I didn't have any choice about what to do. I was just building. But my concept was that building was an expression of right livelihood. So every morning before the group of workers started, We were just three or four, and then five or six, and then it got up to be, well, it got up to be quite a few eventually. But I would offer incense and bow and chant to an altar in the shop, and then talk to the assembled workers, just not about Buddhism directly, but mostly about just what we were doing in the day.

[06:42]

And I had one day. The company motto, which was posted on the wall, was practice is our product. So I tried to instill the idea that how you did things was more important than what you did. Pretty much in the midst of economic and capitalist world, it was pretty much a failure. It did not go over real big, and I struggled with it for 30 years. And eventually, when I retired from construction, I had a property in West Oakland called O2, O2AA, Artisan's Aggregate. O2 was an oxygen plant and Artisan's Aggregate because the idea was it's supposed to be a group of craftspeople that worked together and hopefully worked with each other and it was a symbiotic

[07:45]

circular economy. Well, it was a big concept and I was not very well financed. So I struggled with it for many years and then finally when I got too old to run it myself, I had to give it up and I had to sell it in order to satisfy some of my partners in that property. So that left me with no real home. and no real, let me know where to go and nothing to do, which is probably the best place to be. And so I wandered by here. This is, I also have an affinity with Taikan in Chicago. I've spent time there and working with them, but also Bill Kwong up again, Joji. I spent time with them as well. Berkeley, when I was in high school, I lived at this same address, 1927 actually, Stewart Street, which is just two blocks north of here.

[08:57]

So this is sort of part of my old home. And while Mel was away at Tassajara being Shuso, I took care of the Berkeley Zenda when it was on Dwight Way for nine months or more. And it was probably the happiest time of my life. It was so wonderful. experience i never left i never even went up to telegraph avenue i got one of the first years to drive me down handle vehicle and drive me down to the bay and i collected driftwood on the bay and made fences and gates and furniture and weird stuff for the for the uh big garden in the back a little workshop in the garage anyway it was it was wonderful you just opened the zendo every morning people all these wonderful people came and uh And then we had room for about four or five people. I rented rooms there, three or four people. Anyway, it was shortly after that that I went back to Tassajara and then went to Japan.

[10:00]

And my experience in Buddhism has been almost all Japanese. All my teachers were Japanese. So I had Japanese teachers at Tassajara. then I had Japanese teachers in Japan, and then when I came back in 75, 76 from Japan, it was a rude shock because American Zen is a little different than Japanese Zen. And I've been struggling with how to bring those two understandings together ever since, and just now feeling like I'm getting some kind of a grip on them. which is what I wanted to talk about today. Anyway, I consider it a great good fortune that I just happened to wander into Tassajara in 67, just before the opening, the first opening ceremony. I was there for about two weeks before Tanguario, Saturday Tanguario started.

[11:07]

I'd never sat before. It was a rude shock. Anyway, And then there was a summer practice period and then two winter practice periods. So I was there for a long time without going anywhere. It was an amazing initial experience. And also meeting with Shundra Suzuki was also a great experience for me. But I'm just deeply grateful for his teaching and for that whole experience. And in the beginning, the service from the beginning was just the Heart Sutra. And we would chant the Heart Sutra three times in Sino-Japanese, which is a language that neither Japanese nor Americans understand.

[12:10]

But it's the language that it was transmitted to. Japan from China, or shortly after it was adapted to, because the pronunciation is all Japanese. Well, we would do it with the Bokugyo and do it really intensely and faster and faster. It became a very powerful experience of chanting that chant that's been chanted for at least 800 years. in an environment that was fully cut off from the rest of the world and where all you heard about was teachings of the 7th and 8th century. It was transporting. It was waterfully transporting. And at that time the Tassar was, there was no electricity and there wasn't

[13:18]

a very rudimentary phone, but it was something emergency-only kind of thing. And it was a microbiotic. The food was very, very intensely regulated. Anyway, it's an experience that I'm deeply grateful for, and I feel very lucky to have happened, to just happen into it on that, just by chance. And the main thing that Zubyoshi started teaching that I remember is that we talk about form and emptiness. Emptiness is form. Form is form and emptiness is emptiness. And it was coming at it cold without any background. It was a bit of a challenge to understand how to deal with that concept. And it was talked about that you shouldn't practice in steps and stages, that samsara and nirvana were one, and that you should just experience it directly.

[14:37]

So still somebody in your energetic person in their early 20s misses. Not a lot to take in, anyway. There were some very serious practitioners there, people that were very serious about their practice, and there were some very warm, wonderful people there. And there were some people there that you probably wouldn't ever talk to if you met them on the street somewhere out in the world. Through the practice, we were brought together with an intensity that was quite wonderful. Anyway, now, later, after many more years of studying, I understand the importance of form is emptiness, emptiness is form, form is form, and emptiness is emptiness, and as basically stages that you need to go through as part of our practice, our training,

[15:50]

to experience all four states. And that's something that I think is hard to understand without the experience of having some relationship with a teacher. So you're very fortunate here to have Alan here. And then I think there's other members of the community that also act as teachers by no worry as one. to work with them directly because we all have a tendency to ignore certain aspects of form and emptiness. And it's not easy to do without having some relationship with some kind of a teacher, whether it's an a sick child, or an invalid parent, or what it might be, or your own personal disabilities.

[16:57]

It needs to have something to draw you out of your view into a broader spectrum. Anyway, Nowadays, my interest is mostly in working with the Four Noble Truths, which, you know, suffering, and then the emptiness, the nature of emptiness, or the non-abiding nature of karma, and then the third one of how to understand And that's what most of our teaching is about. It's the koans and the various sayings and the various teachings and the writings. It's all about how to understand our true nature.

[18:00]

But then the fourth is like an owner's manual for how to be a human being. It's the main thing, it's the precepts. You chatted them this morning. My feeling now is that our understanding of the precepts in this day and age are stuck in a different era. They need to be brought up to life the way we experience it now. So the main thing I'm interested in now is the precepts and how to understand the precepts. How to understand them is what they actually mean in everyday life. I'm thinking, what's that's giving, does that mean? that you shouldn't charge interest? Does that mean that you shouldn't make money off of other people? I mean, what does that mean in the economic life of ourselves and our country? I think there needs to be a paradigm shift in how we work as a society, how we treat other people, how we treat people that are different from us.

[19:14]

There's much needs to be done in coming up with a owner's manual for being a human. And that's sort of the main thing I'm interested in these days is thinking more about that and thinking what the precepts actually mean. And then there's the question of how do you understand the precepts because even if you Even if you have some very wonderful precepts, but what happens if you break the precepts? What is a non-dualistic understanding of the precepts? Suzuki Roshi never talked about precepts when I was there, later in his life, apparently. I left about nine months before he died, so I didn't hear him speak at the end. And apparently he did talk about precepts more then.

[20:18]

But he didn't talk about precepts that, well, while I was there, that I remember, that other people remember. All he said was, don't make two. That's the most important precept. That's the base precept. Don't divide things into two. You and others, good and bad, yes and no. Don't make, don't break, don't break it down to good guys and bad guys. That's, That's the basic precept, which is true, but it needs to be expounded upon and clarified and made more visible. And then the understanding of how to understand the precepts about obeying the precepts or not obeying the precepts, how to deal with that dualism and make that into a non-dualistic understanding is also a great challenge. or so many good ideas come up, and then they get pushed down people's throats until they want to, until they gang and vomit and fight back.

[21:25]

So it's not just a matter of having a good idea, it's having a good understanding. And then recently here, we've been talking about the... about the steps of how we practice here, and we're talking about gates. And I know you've been in the practice period in the Shuso, talking about gates, the front gate, what's happening, about the importance of a front gate. And my understanding of that is that is the entrance where you make, where the Jew is an unstinted as you've talked about in your ceremony this morning. It's a vow to save all sentient beings. It's a vow to understand. It's literally a vow to study yourself.

[22:28]

That's what my understanding of it anyway. And then once you've entered the gate, then you have to stay and have a meal and sit down and eat. and do your eating as like basic physical functions, so you have to take care of the body, take care of your existence, and practice your living in the vow. And then you have room to move into the great light of Zazen. And Zazen is basically the Flower Adornment Sutra's Buddhist light. It's unexplainable, uncomprehendable, beyond knowledge.

[23:43]

But you can't experience it, but you cannot describe it. Anyway, that's the understanding that I'm working with these days. And anybody that's interested in discussing any of these points, I would be happy to talk with them. Any questions or thoughts? I'll pass around the mic if those in Zendo want to ask a question. And online, if you want to let us know if you have a question to Mary Beth, you might be able to let us know if someone raises their hand. We have a question over here, Paul. Welcome, and thank you for being here with us. I would love to hear the Heart Sutra in the Sino-Japanese language.

[24:47]

I'm sorry? The Heart Sutra in the Sino-Japanese language, are you still remembering? I haven't done it for so long, but you don't do it here at all? Yeah, we do. You do, yeah. Let's do it. Let's do it. Satsang with Mooji Satsang with Mooji Thank you. Thank you.

[25:59]

Thank you. Thank you. . .

[27:08]

Well, as you see, I don't remember it all either, but anyway, I haven't had it for a long time, but I find it quite wonderful. I find it quite inspiring and transporting. Anyway, when I chanted, when I chanted the morning, I would generally chant the Kwanzaeong. That's what I usually chant for myself. Anyway, that answered your question. Thank you for your talk, and thank you for participating in helping build this new vegetable garden that we're having through the gate.

[28:26]

So we're all entering a new gate now. What I want to hear more about is these four steps. I have never heard that before. I don't know. We could have missed some talks along the way. But if you could say anything more today about form is form and emptiness is emptiness and emptiness is form and form is emptiness, because that is what I wanted to know about since I started practicing here. And it's still not as clear as I wish it would be. I only brought that up because I just wanted to express my understanding that These are important things for practitioners to understand or to experience. I guess experience is more of a better way to put it. And it's vastly more complex than I would even attempt to get involved in less than, you know, a month long, a month of lectures.

[29:38]

It's a big deal. And there's lots to be said. And there's lots of things that are not easy to be said. Anyway, it's something to be studied at some point. Hello, Paul. Hi. I believe that you designed and constructed the altar that's just to your right. Is that right? Well, only partially. One of my colleagues, one of my better students, performed the actual work. And I was involved with the concept of it, of Mount Subaru, superimposed on itself.

[30:41]

which is the shape of most altars in the last few hundred years anyway. I don't know how far back it goes. But that sort of ziggurat or pyramid, imposed on a pyramid, is only subtly hidden at here on this altar. But that was the concept. I've always thought it was a very interesting shape, and it looks like if you turned it upside down, it would be either identical or almost the same. It has the same sort of little sloping at the bottom as up at the top edge. That's the Mount Sumeru. It's superimposed on top of itself. A mountain on top of itself. Okay. That's interesting because in a recent koan, some people, some of us have been looking at, it talks about bring the lamp to the Buddha hall or something like that, and then bring the gates, the entry gates, and put them on the lantern.

[31:55]

So it's sort of a puzzling image, but it kind of reminds me of this altar. Maybe that's the same idea. Yeah, I don't really know the origins, but it does go back a long ways. When they teach things in Japan, they don't tell you why. Why is never an important question. They just teach you how. And they teach you how, and then you're supposed to do how and how to, not why. So, and you're supposed to do how to until the how disappears if you just have the to. But, so I never, I was just told that was what it was. I was never told why. Well, I think it's been functioning... without any words all these decades so thank you seems like it huh yeah you also have a question from the community room online

[33:23]

Can you hear me now? or come to the door here and ask your question yeah he doesn't even need a microphone he's got a loud voice we had another question here He's feminine.

[34:24]

He's feminine. Hey, Paul. Hi. When we circumambulate around the Zenba, we pass a new gate over here on the west side of the underground. And I'm wondering if you could say a little bit about how that gate was created and what's going on on the other side. Okay. So I don't know if any of you have seen my book about Zen architecture. I don't know that, but there's supposed to be a copy. I gave several copies to the bookstore here. They are. To sell if they want. Paul's book is for sale. There are four copies for sale after the lecture. Talked by the book table. It's a fantastic book. Anyway, the book is basically about the Yencho Koan. and using the Genjo Koan, I think it's the third stanza, or maybe it's the fourth, I forget, as a design tool.

[35:25]

And so it's the one that goes, you know, to study the way is to study the self. And so I use that as a design tool. To study the self is you study the environment, the location. You take into account the people. You take into account the weather. You take into account the cargo points. You take into account the budget. You take into account the time allowed. There's all these different factors that are part of what it is you're doing. And then you let the myriad things come forth and tell you what to do. so um it took me a long time to figure out because i didn't understand the the fences the fence has been built on top of another fence quite this quite cleverly quite cleverly done but there's an old fence and then somebody came along and built a new fence on top of the old fence and the two are intertwined so it took me a long time to figure out how that relationship with those two existed and then how to maintain

[36:43]

the feeling of the newer fence, which is not that new actually, but how to maintain that spirit of that new fence, and include a gate in that spirit. So that was the process, was using that understanding of the Genjo Cohen. Thank you, Paul. It's right outside the abyss entrance here, so when you walk by you can actually see The old gate and a new gate. The old fence and the new gate with the old fence components. It's really a beautiful, seamless work. Appreciate it. Hi, Paul. Over here. It's really a delight to have you here. Thank you for coming and working with us here at Berkeley Zen Son.

[37:45]

So I have maybe a question that has three different aspects to it, and please take any part of it that you want, kind of touched on some of this already. So I'm really interested first in understanding if there's a way in which the Japanese carpet tree is reflective of our practice. and how you said some aspects of how you practiced as a Zen practitioner, but I'm wondering how you see the carpentry reflected in our practice. And then I'm also really curious about, in your 30 years of having your business, how you found your way with the precepts with them. And you've pointed to that it wasn't easy, but I wonder what learnings or what insights you might be able to share with those of us who are still working, trying to establish businesses and find our way. And finally, I thought I had heard that you had a hand in building the Zendo or designing the Zendo.

[38:53]

I don't know if some of the joinery for the ceiling is your work or not, but if you... You're talking about here, the Zendo here? Yes. No, Alan was talking about, he was involved. Alan Block back there. No, I was somewhere else when this happened. I built this into a Tassajara, but not here. It happened when I was somewhere else. I did one little roof over one of the buildings here, I remember, but that was the extent of my construction here. Yeah, maybe over the laundry room, across the courtyard here. Possibly, yeah. No, I didn't. I wasn't involved here. Mostly a green gulch. Mostly I was involved with a green gulch in Tassajara for building. And you can look in the book, you'll see some of the other projects.

[39:55]

One of the biggest ones is the temple in Switzerland in the Alps. Bonnie and Palmer's Pilsentor, which is an interesting story unto itself, but not for now. Anyway, how the carpenter, well, there's a whole class of people in Japan called shokunin, and the shokunin are people that are totally dedicated to the practice of their craft. Maybe some of you have seen a movie called Jiro Dreams of Sushi. Have you ever seen that movie? Well, Jiro was a shokunin, and sushi was his practice. And it borders on fanatical, but it's one-pointed concentration.

[40:55]

One of the projects I worked on in Japan, It was for this company out by Lake Biwa. And it was a three-story pagoda in the Heian style, which is basically the Tong style from China. And very traditional and very complicated with many layers. And the young man who was in his late 20s, I believe at the time, that laid out the whole thing. He swallowed the whole building and spinned it out in pieces. focused on the whole building, and it's all pre-cut, the whole thing is pre-cut, it's elaborate. Multi-multi pieces, thousands of pieces, all pre-cut, to fit together perfectly at the end. And he was able to do that. He was able to do a number of other sort of amazing, physical stunts. But he didn't know how to speak Japanese, he spoke dialect, he was like, spoke a country dialect that was

[41:59]

He didn't know how to speak like an ordinary Japanese. And he had no time for a girlfriend. They sent him to a whorehouse in Taiwan twice a year for his female encounters. He had no idea who the Prime Minister of Japan was. But he could swallow a whole pagoda. So it's, I don't know, it's the level of concentration is almost magical. But what that has to do with Zen, I'm not sure. In a way, it's using that Zaza mind to a purpose. But it's definitely... It's definitely out there.

[43:03]

Do you have a question from Ron Nestor? Hello. Hi, Paul. Hi, Ron. I watched you and maybe one or two helpers. You built the roof. over what's now Hozon's office. In front of the office. That's the work I've seen you do around. I think that's the extent of it, yeah. But I have done a number of gates, one of the more recent gates, I don't know how many of you have been at Tassajara lately. The thatched roof gate at Tassajara was a gate that I did a few years back. And I did that as a class. There was no money in the budget to build it, or very little money in the budget to build it.

[44:08]

So I did it as a class, and people signed up for the class, and we met, like, I think in this case, we met once a week. And we started making all this. First we discussed what a gate is. What is a gate? Discussed that for a few, for a couple of weeks. And then we made models of gates. And then we started making up the design. And we got the pieces of wood together and the stones and everything. We started making the gate. And we did the vast majority of the work in Oakland, in my shop in Oakland. And then we took it to Tassajara and went down for two weeks and finished it down there on site. So that was one of the last gates. But I've done gates in the heart of Tokyo. that are from the Sun period gates that are quite elaborate with rigging the rafters. I did a gate in the Berkeley Arboretum. If you go walking in the Berkeley Arboretum up in Strawberry Canyon, in the Japanese section there's a path that reads through.

[45:15]

In the Japanese section there's a little walk-through gate that I did maybe, I don't know, 30 years ago? A long time ago. And it still looks great. I'm very proud of that. That's my favorite gate goal. Anyway, gates are nice, concise structures that you can experience all of the architectural. They're like a poem. They're like an architectural poem. You can experience them all understated and indirectly stated. When we were in Kyoto with you, you got us access to some of the temples in Daikyokiji. Is that it?

[46:16]

In Daikyokiji? Yeah. Yes, that's where I studied when I was there, yeah. Right. And what I remember is walking around these temples, walking on the Gaitan, and you would point to a board and say, I put in that board. Oh, yeah, yeah, that was, that was, that was, what was, that was, Shinjuan. Yeah. That was, yeah. So, aside from, you know, there's the Slam and the whole pagoda at once, and there is chartering the position of one boy. Yeah, that was a great honor to be. That's a very special temple. And the teacher, the priest there is an incredible person. I mean, he just radiates the light. And it's interesting.

[47:19]

I've never figured out how to do it myself. You know, you must take a photograph, right? So we were there with a number of people, we wanted to take a photograph, and all of a sudden, boom! He turns on the light, and you can see it in the photograph, and he's like, oh, there's a moon in the room, and it's like... It was quite astounding. He was good. He taught me three, five, seven. That was what he taught me. That's sort of a... a numerical sequence for design, of Japanese design. And he was very, he was very encouraging. I liked working there. We were just the maintenance crew fixing repairs, just doing repairs. Nick Robinson has a question online. Hi, thanks for your talk.

[48:19]

I have a question about don't make two. It seems to me that in the context of Zen practice in a community with a teacher and continuous Zazen practice, it's easier to understand don't make two and to practice that. Much harder in one's livelihood in art practice in the world. What can we, is there anything we can take from our experience in Sazen practice to help us to not make two in the world? Well, I think, I mean, everything you do is an opportunity. When you meet somebody for the first time, or you meet somebody for the umpteenth time?

[49:26]

Do you feel comfortable with them? Do you feel on par with them? Do you feel like they're your siblings, your fellow humans? I mean, people are very Other people are very quick to understand whether you see somebody as good or bad or inferior or superior. It's your judgment of other people when you meet them. And some people are very sensitive to it, some of them aren't so sensitive to it, but everybody gets that. So what kind of a vibe do you give off when you meet somebody? just being there with them, or is it one of them thinking, well, what can I get from this person, or why am I wasting my time with this person?

[50:26]

Or, you know, it's an opportunity. Every chance we get, they have an opportunity. And when you see a piece of garbage on the ground, do you think, oh, some stupid person dropped that on the ground? Or do you think, oh, that's my garbage, I'll pick it up and take it away with me? That's how you don't make two. Thank you, Paul. Many of us never had the good fortune of meeting Suzuki Roshi, and I was wondering if you could tell a little story or an observation. that you might remember of your time at Tassajara and what it was that moved you, touched you about working with him as your teacher? Well, I would ask many things, of course.

[51:32]

One of the first lessons that I learned was that when we first started out The old Zendo, the stone Zendo, the burnt, was still part of the old resort. It was the bar, actually. And where the altar was, there was a big fireplace, or open fireplace. Anyway, we didn't use it as a Zendo. I forget the details. But anyway, we used the two-story building on the edge of the creek there, that little two-story building. There's rooms upstairs and a big room downstairs. And that had been the previous owner's private quarters. And they used that downstairs room as a Zen dome. And the kitchen was just a little shack on the deck there because the kitchen had been condemned and torn down. But anyway, so we would have breakfast in there, eating orioke.

[52:36]

and just with three bowls, just, you know, simple three bowls of oreochi. And they would have a cereal in the morning, and they would put out gamasio, and they'd put out milk and honey for the cereal. And one morning, the chef, the cooks, forgot to put out the milk and honey. And Suzuki Roshi stopped in the middle of breakfast and said, I'm so glad that you realized that the taste of oatmeal is so much better just by itself. The true taste of oatmeal is so much better just by itself. You don't really need to put milk and honey on it. I'm so glad that you figured that out, that you found that out. Well, of course, it was a mistake on our part, but we never had milk and honey again. That was the end of that. So he was very mild at his teaching. He never shouted or yelled, but... He found opportunities like that to challenge our thinking about things.

[53:41]

That was very skillful. He was very skillful, but he was constantly looking for ways in order to do that. How we put our shoes on the shoe rack was always very important. The broom standing up is a classic one. Always stand the broom up on its head because the broom can't do it for itself. But he always felt that his teaching was too mild, too gentle. But I think for us young 60 wild ass kids, it was probably the perfect thing. He brought in Tatsugabe Roshi later to be strict, but we wore him down pretty quick. Anyway, but I remember also another thing was that we would sit-ups before noon, during the practice periods, and then we'd go out and we would hit the bell in the Han for lunch.

[54:48]

And somebody had to, it was a position that somebody was chosen to do that. And this person that was quite a good friend of mine, there was a Danish carpenter, I mean, he and I worked together. He also had a lot of meals homes. It was his, his role to be that, I forget the name of the position now, it's been so long. Anyway, and there was a big clock on the Zendo wall, right up above him, and Salukhio, she was sitting on the top, right above him also, sitting up in a raised platform at the end of the Zendo, this is the old Zendo. And at some point, Neil squared back so he could see the clock that was up there on the wall. They looked at the clock, and as soon as you were carrying the stick, we'd be here to Kiyosaku in those days, you could see that he was sitting there and he looked like he was asleep. I mean, he was not, he was nicely nodding, but it did not look like he was fully awake.

[55:52]

But as soon as the old smear back, he was up in a flash, down, and hitting him with a stick. Because he was looking at the clock. And he would come around every once in a while and just come around and say, don't hit everybody. Probably something that he experienced in his own training, but it was very refreshing, shall we say. But his way was very gentle. He liked to arrange stones in his yard, that's what he did during that period. I also remember one time we had visiting Rinzai teachers who were visiting, Solon Roshi, I don't remember exactly who it was, but some famous Rinzai teacher was visiting, and he had taken his little teaching stick and he broke it over one of his students, this man,

[56:57]

Oh, God, what was his name? Muman Roshi? No, no, it was Sulukuroshi. Oh. Had broken the stick over Phil, Phil, Philip. Phil Wilson. Wilson, Phil Wilson, who was, that's a whole other story. I won't get into who Phil Wilson was, but anyway. And Phil was like, yes, yes, sensei, yes, sensei, quack, quack, quack, yes, sensei, yes, sensei. And he was incorrigible. He was mentally not all there, but anyway. But Sulukuroshi was working with him, and he, ended up breaking the oak stick from Philip. So then some months later, some months later, this visiting Rinsai teacher was there, and he came to me with a broken stick. He says, I want you to put this back together again, but not too skillfully. I want them to see the break. I want them to know we have tough practice here too. And he gave us a present to the teacher, to the visiting Rensai teacher.

[57:59]

So that's a little insights into his inner thinking. So those ways that you've described that he challenged you, do you have the faith that... How will that meet American Zen as we go forward? Do you have the faith that his teachings will continue to inform American Zen? Well, that's a whole other conversation, another lecture that I'd be happy to talk about. The connection between Japanese Zen and American Zen. I mean, Japanese Zen is basically from the neck down and American Zen is from the neck up. So, there are two that are kind of disjointed. But I think that my understanding and my feeling these days is that the two are joined at the point of vow, like you vowed this morning, you vowed this morning, the ceremony of the sowing, is the vow to save whole sentient beings is the joining point between the two ways of practicing.

[59:16]

And that's the most important part is that vow. Thank you. That may be where we have to end it. Beliefings are unhumberless. I vow to awaken with them. The religions are inexhaustible. I vow to mend them. Hi everyone.

[62:40]

Welcome to Berkeley Zen Center. A special welcome to anyone visiting us for the first time. My name is Joe. Here are some announcements for the week. This coming Monday morning, Susan Marvin will give the Way Seeking Mind Talk. That's online at 8 a.m. Registration is open for an online class beginning this Monday evening at 715 on the Pali Sutas, and that'll be led by Lori Sanaki. please register on the website. And next Saturday, we have our August Sashim. Dave Rushman will deliver the lecture. Those who are not registered for Sashim are welcome to view the lecture in the online Zendo on Zoom at the usual time, but in-person attendance is limited to participants only. And please check the website for details. Do we still have spaces open, Ro? There's still spaces open. A half-day sitting will be held in two weeks on Sunday, August 20th. Details are also online.

[63:40]

Today, after we leave here, the library will be open for a tour. Maria Teresa will help anyone who has any questions about the library, how to look up books, how to check out books. In order to check out books, you do have to be a member, but anyone is invited to join for this tour. Um, I think we're going to do it. The 1st, the 1st, Saturday of the month. So, yeah, please take advantage of that. For some recurring reminders, BCC students and members are strongly encouraged to meet and develop a relationship with a teacher or a practice leader. Abbott Hoson and other teachers and senior students are available for formal and practice discussion. Please visit the. website and there's a teachers tab for contact and information. For details on membership and our other programs, you can see the bulletin board that's in the courtyard or check out the website.

[64:46]

And also, if you'd like to make a donation to support BCC, you can do that physically in the courtyard. There's a donation box or go online and there's a generosity tab on the website. For those of us here in the Zendo, Please maintain silence until you're off the porch and then feel free to socialize and those online. Please feel free to unmute and greet one another. Thank you. Good to see you. Everybody. Thanks to. And to Paul. Great talk. And all. Take care. Bye.

[65:48]

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