It's nice to see you all. For those of you who don't know me, my name is Peter Overton, and I practiced here in the beginning, 20-some years ago, and was at Zen Center for some time. Now I live here in Berkeley. I live here in Berkeley with my family, thank you. And I come here today not really sure of how to describe what I want to talk about. I'm a little suspicious. Often when I come here I have something I really want to say and I kind of know what it is. But this time, although something significant happened for me that I want to share with you as a way to talk about, well perhaps it's a way to talk about the four vows. It's kind of curious how to, I wasn't quite sure how to start talking about it.

[01:16]

over the last six years I've been on the board of directors of the San Francisco Zen Center and it's been a very important focus for my involvement with the Sangha and it's allowed me to extend and renew my relationships there in a way which is very natural in the sense that I had a great deal of history with San Francisco Zen Center and could comment with some relevance, you know, as to what was going on there and kind of extend, you know, continue the ongoing conversations in a way that I felt I could contribute to. And so it's been very important for me. And now that's coming to an end. One of the nice things that the Zen Center does for the people who are on the board is to invite them to go to Tassajara each year for a couple of nights.

[02:21]

So my family and I have gone down every summer for a number of years just to spend a couple of nights there. I found it a sort of schizophrenic experience for the most part because my general orientation upon going to Tassajara is that of a student, which is, as I discovered, quite different from being there as sort of a guest and just kind of hanging out and relaxing and doing whatever you felt like doing. And I actually had quite a bit of difficulty with it, and I still do. But one of the things I began to appreciate upon having this experience once a year was how profoundly important Tassarar is for people who come there, for the people we share it with. For the people who just come and just are just taking baths and, you know, reading by the pool and stuff like that, you know.

[03:25]

It's always been an important experience for me to go there with my family. Of course, understanding the place as I do and having my sense of being there as a student practicing. When you're there with your children, young children, you're in the kind of weird space where you're kind of super attentive and mindful. And that's very good for you. Perhaps not the same as being there without anything to pay attention to in particular. But while I was there this time, I started to realize that Yes, I'm not going to have this focus that I've had for the last number of years that's allowed me to really think deeply about the Sangha, or prompted me to think deeply about the Sangha and what its concerns are, and what place in our society a place like Zen Center has.

[04:35]

What's it doing there? What does it matter? So I started to feel some grief about not having this focus, not having these contacts, these continual conversations I've had with people I've gotten to know quite well and more well over the years. And I really didn't know what to do. I thought, well, maybe I should just try something rather small to do rather than something so big. That would be nice. I keep thinking that perhaps I can have some small thing to do, you know? And life doesn't work that way, but maybe that's the thing to do. I'm not telling this story in sequence, but while I was there, Rev was there, Rev Anderson, and he had just given a workshop and I went to a lecture that he gave while he was there where he talked about his difficulty in coming to the lecture and thinking that

[05:37]

you know, basically, do I really want to come to give a lecture to a bunch of people who are going to fall asleep, you know, and having this problem of wanting, you know, did I really want to do this? And having the problem of thinking, you know, why am I thinking this? He's talking about this struggle he was having. But he started off the lecture saying, My deepest concern is for the welfare and happiness of all beings. This is my deepest concern, I just want to tell you this." I said, well that's nice, you know. And he went on to give this interesting lecture about this quandary and this concept he calls, perhaps some of you have heard him speak about this idea of uprightness as sort of being kind of fully conscious of where you are, where you're sitting, what's going on, which is, he expanded this context to include, you know, being fully conscious of not being fully conscious, you know, of being fully conscious of not wanting to come to the lecture because you felt this, you know, well, why should I do this when, you know, I'm not really going to make contact with these people and, you know.

[06:52]

Anyway, it was very interesting. But a day or so later, I realized that what really resonated with me was his statement about his deepest concern being the welfare and happiness of everyone, all people and other beings. And it struck me that this was maybe, from this place of residence, was a place where I could look for what I should do next, where I could find some motivation, a really sound motivation for taking the next step in my practice and my involvement with the Sangha. And the more I think about this, the more it really helps. It makes sense to me that it feels like this is it's a bad word to say this, but this is sort of a solid thing, a solid place to come from.

[08:00]

A place of, maybe it isn't solid, but it's a place where it doesn't feel like there's something out there which is missing. It feels like everything is there in one circle. And of course that is, it's related to something that we, when we chant the four vows, the first one being Beings are numberless. I vow to save them. That's kind of an expression of that sort of concern. That concern for everybody and everything. When we say that, it's kind of an expression of that. It occurred to me that we often that in our formal practice we recite sutras, we recite these verses. And it's often occurred to me that they are an expression of some deep wisdom.

[09:03]

And yet at this point I ask myself, where is the place? Where is the place where we come from? Where is the place where I can be where I would make that same expression. Where would I be when suddenly I would say, Beings are numberless. I bow to save them. It raised a lot of questions to me, with me, about what is our relationship to our formal practice? What's the relationship of our deep intention to our formal practice in which we When the bell rings, you know, beings are numberless, I vow to save them. What are we saying? What do we mean? Where are we when we say that? It's a kind of reflection, you know, and often what happens is, from my own experience, is that I recite the verse and I say, where am I?

[10:19]

Are beings numberless? What does this mean? So it was kind of refreshing to have this experience of saying, oh yes, that's right. That's the place that I'm coming from when I say that. But in any case, I came away from this sort of reflection on what I'd heard Reb say, feeling, yes, now I can investigate my motivation. And it seems pretty obvious that this would be an appropriate way, appropriate kind of impetus to investigate my motivation to practice Zazen and to continue my association with the Sangha and so on. And then another nagging question came up later on.

[11:32]

Well, now, what about things that I do that are not so obviously related to this? Like, well, what about brushing your teeth? I mean, is this... There are times when you don't feel like brushing your teeth. When you know you should brush your teeth. There are times when you don't feel like making your best effort in your job, whatever that might be. There are times when you're sitting on your cushion, when you just don't want to be in that place where you think you maybe ought to be, whatever that is you think. You know, there's times when you think, I'll just wait this one out, whatever it is, and I'll figure it out later.

[12:41]

One of the interesting things about concern for all beings, or beings are numberless, I vow to save them, is that in a way, It's not really an expression of deep commitment. I mean, you know, on a superficial level, I've always related to this as some goal out there. I should save all beings, you know. And then I'm thinking, well, maybe it's more an expression of some intention. But in a way, it's kind of an expression of just the way things are. Because, um, It's completely natural that our deepest concern should be all beings because we are interconnected. It's an expression of the understanding of interdependence between all things. Because things are all interdependent, naturally, we feel concerned for everything because of that connection.

[13:53]

So in a way, it's just an expression of the way things are. and you're only repeating a kind of personal, even though it's a formulaic expression that we use, we're only kind of reiterating a kind of personal recognition of the way things are. All beings are numberless. I vow to save them. There's no other reality or thing to do, in a way. And yet, We often, our problem is that we often think there's something other than that, or that we think that there's some separateness, that there is not that connection. And so sometimes we'll feel a little uncomfortable feeling like There's a kind of, you feel yourself in sort of a bubble, and you kind of like that bubble, and you want the bubble to continue, you know, whether it's a daydream, or whether it's an idea about what you're gonna do tomorrow, or whether it's, you know, your fears about what, you know, your friend is gonna say to you when you see each other.

[15:08]

There's a kind of delusion or a bubble that you're living in, and you're kind of afraid to let it come out, But coming back to what Red was saying, then there's the... How do you... How do you... How do you save all beings? It's like there's another being that has to be saved. It's this being in the bubble. And so this one has to be embraced, even though you think this is really nonsense. I mean, I'm just doing something pretty nutty here. I'm not really practicing the Dharma. I'm not really recognizing the way things are. I don't really want to recognize things are, but then just embrace this. And then that done. things change.

[16:18]

Because, in a sense, our experience of that state is that we can't see beyond it. And maybe we kind of know we can't see beyond it. But if that's that, that's that. So I guess what I'm talking about here is a little bit like Yes, beings are numberless. I vow to save them is really what things are all about. We are also not necessarily really connected with that all the time. We often are really off someplace else. And our practice involves recognizing that reality too, that being off someplace else. And in embracing that, we kind of come back to our breath or our body or whatever. So,

[17:42]

In a way, what I was just talking about is a little bit more, perhaps, described by delusions are numberless. I vow to end them. And delusion is... One time I was here, I talked about a practice I called Mindfulness Totally Occupied with Delusion. which is a little bit like embracing the bubble you kind of think you're in. Now the bubble's not always pleasant. Sometimes there's something kind of really, you know, getting at you which you don't really want to kind of, you're kind of like, no, no, I don't want that. But you kind of know that you kind of have to deal with it in order to move on. You're not going to feel very good walking out the door in the morning and going to the next situation. knowing that there's this kind of thing getting at you because you know that further down it's going to kind of bite you in the back later on.

[18:49]

So you kind of want to kind of open it up a little bit. And embracing delusion completely. is a way to give it enough space so that it doesn't kind of, I mean the feeling of it kind of nagging at you is the feeling of, it's really the feeling of like this, you know, and you have all this, and it's kind of poking and saying knock, [...] and then it knocks a little louder. But embracing the delusion gives it some space, gives you some space to see what's going on. Dharma gates are boundless, I bow to enter them, is again kind of an expression of the reality of our lives, which is that each moment, each event, is an opportunity to turn the wheel of the Dharma to actually open up and see what you're doing.

[20:05]

each little telephone call with somebody you've never spoken to before, or a passing greeting to someone on the street. The next time someone asks you for money, can you just... this is an opportunity to not turn away, to simply make contact, Thank you. Move on. Those kinds of opportunities are endless. And of course, most of them we walk by without noticing. But they're there. And Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to attain it. This is kind of wonderful. It's a pretty impossible thing to say. What is it?

[21:12]

It wouldn't, our practice wouldn't be complete without impossibility, without an expression of the ungraspable quality of awakening. So, The most intriguing thing that I'm led to as a result of my recent reflections is a question about the very little things in my life and where my motivation comes from to continue these. You often, I mean it's, on the surface it's pretty apparent that, you know, habit and karma are the driving force for most of my activity.

[22:35]

But it seems there will be opportunities to kind of look at each little thing and consider how brushing my teeth will benefit all beings. Now, in some obvious way, of course, I don't want to burden all beings with my creating more problems. Perhaps I have more energy, perhaps I have more space in my life if I just take care of things. Just taking care of things seems like a lot of work and we kind of wonder what the heck is this all about. just, you know, washing the dishes, keeping the place clean, going to that other meeting to talk about this, you know, that stuff, you know, and calling up your friend and just saying hello, and being sort of polite when you see people on the street, and so on and so on and so forth.

[23:52]

It seems as though the maintenance of our normal life is just overwhelming. But on the other hand, that is the arena in which awakening occurs. And all those little opportunities can be just another task or they can be Let's just love this next thing, whatever it is, and the next thing. And that creates a different type of energy and allows you to approach things that you've had some difficulty with, with a new mind, a fresh mind. There are relationships, all of us have, that are always going to be trouble.

[24:55]

And we're always going to think, oh God, now I have to go and talk to her again. Now I have to say hello and get through this little situation somehow. And then, and you know this is going to go on for years. And you think, Somehow I have to be ready for something other than this to happen. Somehow I have to be ready for it to open up. How do I embrace this situation so that maybe something else could happen? Not that I would really anticipate something different happening, because that seems to be kind of part of the problem too, but how could it possibly be there? So coming here, I feel like, again, I feel like I, coming here a little bit like I don't know quite how to focus to really go deep into the thing that's kind of out there for me.

[26:50]

But I was willing to come here and kind of just confuse you a little bit. In that recognition, I just want to make sure that I haven't said anything really distracting. Does anyone like to say anything at this point? Yes. And I wondered if you could say anything about what it is that makes that shift happen, or what is that shift all about in those ongoing troublesome relationships.

[28:01]

And all of a sudden one day you can deal with this person. I'm just trying to make sure I phrase this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you're talking about. You know, I don't know. if you can package it. That's the problem. There's nothing to grab onto and package. And I think the real problem is that there is something that we're grabbing onto in that relationship. There's a real handle. And sometimes it's really deep and very strong. And you just can't quite let go of that long enough to let something else happen. And to let yourself be somebody else. and not be afraid to be, you know, there's a real fear of letting go of that thing that's got you in its grip. You know, that concept of who this person is and who I am. And, you know, the classic example of that on a sort of societal-wide basis is racism, is race prejudice, is, you know, you're just indoctrinated.

[29:03]

You know, all of us, most of us are heavily indoctrinated. about who someone is who has different color skin. I noticed this dramatically when I was in high school. It was a boarding school, but we had people of all kinds in this boarding school. And then we had some kids from Africa who were exchange students, who were totally not keyed in to this kind of stuff that we're into in America. And you can have a totally different kind of relationship with them. They just didn't play that game. And whereas with African-American students who were there, there would be this kind of thing going on where you'd have to kind of figure out how to get out of it and how to have a real relationship. You had to kind of jettison that whole set of baggage. You'd have to work at it in order to have a relationship, a direct relationship with somebody. Whereas these other students, they just did not set off your alarm buttons because it just wasn't there for them.

[30:03]

So that's what I mean, is that sometimes there are things that are personal or sometimes there are kind of more, you know, societal things that you grab onto and you have an idea. And whether it's from your own long relationship with a family member or something, but it's hard to let go. The grabbing onto I was referring to was the opposite. It's the good stuff. It's that intangible something that happens if you're lucky. And you're in the right frame of mind. Well, it's kind of like a kaleidoscope. When you're lucky, when you're turning it, everything seems to fall into place. It's a beautiful picture. And that other stuff comes back around again, you know.

[31:11]

Thank you. David. Peter. It's nice to see you. Nice to see you. Well, it seems the same issue of grabbing or not grabbing comes up around who are these beings anyway? Who and where? You know, when I think of Rev, you know, it's very upright. Someone who looks like a Buddha. think of it on a kind of cosmic scale, all beings, and the relationship between some figure and all beings. And when we talk about it around here, we often get into issues of social responsibility and so on. So at least it's some... Yeah, it comes down a level, you know, to some more... But in my own life and practice, identification and the location of these beings gets very tricky for me. And often, you know, I may initially identify them as outside of me, but I see that actually what I'm encountering, whether it's a happy encounter or an unhappy one, is actually what's inside me.

[32:30]

Well, you have a contribution there. Right. Well... So where are these beings? Well, that's a big question and there are, as you know, a number of schools of thought in Buddhism on the subject. I thought you'd give us one. Oh, one, well... Well, that's a whole other topic, but I think the question is, you know, I mean, you may you may have a sense of where they are, I mean, from the particular, like, my inclination at this point in my life is to kind of think about, is to think small, you know, and just get away from thinking big, which is useful. But thinking small actually takes you to the places where

[33:38]

where things can start really happening for you. But as far as where these beans are, then maybe that's up to you. You know, if you think that all that out there is just a reflection of your own consciousness, that's, you know, maybe you've got to work with that. And, you know, I don't know, I mean, there are schools of Buddhist thought which tend in that direction, if not, you know, embrace that idea that it's not, that there are, that what we see out there is not really out there at all. It's all in here. And then there's some opposite ones that accept the idea that, not opposite, but there's some schools which accept the reality of, of that out there. But, you know, don't really accept it as it's not really the way it appears. It's really made up of all sorts of conditions and causes and dharmas, but those are out there.

[34:43]

But really, I think more it's a question of, well, if that's the way you're seeing things, then how do you work with that? Yes? Well, I've just been, I am involved in a wonderful experiment. which has met for five months, a group of nine people. And when it began, of course, it was a lot of mental planning amongst the planners, that this group would meet, and there'd be one evening where we talked about process, and another evening group teachings, and that everyone would have a volunteer placement, and it would be healthy beings in this way. So, what happens? What happens? I think that really what has happened eight people, nine people in our bubbles.

[35:44]

And it began to be to trust each other enough to do bubble exploration. And that kind of mutual, certainly built on a lot of trust, that kind of mutual exploration was the really fertile, is the really fertile ground. And then the placements, the people that we are actually You know, I had an experience like that when I first left Zen Center and I went to work in a bakery in Berkeley.

[36:47]

And I had been working in a bakery at Zen Center and had a lot of experience with that. And I started to realize what a bubble I was in about how you behave in a workplace and how you relate to people. My assumptions were and the kinds of things that I expected to be able to do and the kind of behavior I expected of myself and other people was completely different from what was, you know, just there. And it became clear that I had to learn from these young men I was working with. who are sort of high school dropouts, you know, and kind of, you know, just really into this thing about, you know, what is a man, you know, trying to be a man, you know, and, you know, it's like, well, I've just gotten over this now. At least that phase of it, anyway. Twenty-year-olds, you know, and it was really tough for me. And I finally learned, you know, I just have to be out, I just have to get it out there, you know, I just, you know, If I have some really obnoxious thing to say to them, I just have to say it because they have to know who I am.

[37:53]

That's how they're going to know me. They're not going to know me by something. But there was that kind of experience of being in some situation where I thought I had something important to do, I felt I had something to contribute, I had all this experience, but having absolutely no connection. How do I learn from these folks? We'll be running out of time. Anyone else like to say something? Yes? I don't know that we can ever see anybody clearly, you know? I mean, we can try. I mean, we can... I don't know what it is.

[38:56]

It's, you know... I guess we can feel clear, and then that's a kind of more pristine and energetic sort of situation to meet somebody. Yeah. Yeah. on that node.

[39:22]

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