I love the taste, the truth of the Tathagatas. Good morning. Well, this morning, there are three things that I want to talk about, but I can only talk about one of them. The first thing that I want to talk about, the third thing that I want to talk about, is the various elements that make a complete practice. The second thing I want to talk about is my trip to Bhutan, and India and Bhutan, which we will talk about tomorrow morning at five. or Monday mornings, Monday morning, right after Zazen.

[01:05]

And maybe Doug and I will talk about it and we may have some slides. So you're all welcome to come Monday morning to Zazen, Monday morning Zazen and picture show. But the thing that's most imminent actually is, as you may have seen in the last newsletter, I had a little article about the transition ... what was that click? Okay, with the transition of authority, like my so-called retirement. discussion. So I think after that article many people think that I'm already gone.

[02:07]

So I think I have to clarify what's really going on. And as you know I've been Abbott here for a long time. And even though I'm getting younger, it looks like I'm getting older. What the board and the practice committee leaders are thinking about is how to make as much of a seamless transition of avidship and authority over a period of time that feels very natural and is not some abrupt kind of, makes a problem in an abrupt way.

[03:22]

So, we've started a process of dialogue to try to figure out how to make that happen. And that's what that article was about, to let people know that there is a process in place for my eventual retirement. But what the word retirement means is, it's not really a good word, but it's maybe okay. So I have to clarify what that means as soon as I understand it. But the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that, for me, the first stage of retirement

[04:25]

would be letting go of administrative duties so that I just concentrate on relating to my students and teaching. That doesn't sound so bad. And giving others the opportunity to have more authority. So, it's possible, talking about possibilities, when I talk about possibilities, most people would think this is what's going to happen. I hate to talk about possibilities. Just don't be attached to the ideas. Possibility is to have an assistant at it, and then over time the abbot and the assistant abbot work out how to work together and how to assume the assistant abbot assumes my responsibilities little by little and I let go little by little until finally it just feels like a smooth transition people get used to working with the assistant abbot in that way but it doesn't mean that I am fading

[05:55]

away means that I have more time to do the things that ... teaching and relating, and maybe I'll work in the kitchen, you know, work in the garden with people, maybe more ... she's smiling ... maybe more intimate with, you know, in the actual process of our practice, and gives me more time to study and so forth, or go away. Actually, I don't like traveling so much. After my last trip to Bhutan in India, that was too much traveling. Anyway, that's the process that is going on.

[06:59]

We're just thinking about it, you have to realize, we're just beginning to think about this. And it's important to think about it, because we have to think about it in terms of supporting another person as an abbot, as well as my So, the board gets nervous about how we're going to support another abbot because I'm so inexpensive. I'm a kind of financial bargain. What? I'm a cheap date. So all these things are important problems to deal with.

[08:01]

So we're dealing with them now, so that we don't have big surprises in the future. What are administrative duties as opposed to the rest that you'll be giving up early on? Well, maybe I won't be on the board or the practice committee or go to meetings, unless there's some reason to. I have no idea. It could be tomorrow or ten years. Good question. Yeah, it's like, you know, just in the process of thinking about it, I'm not speculating exactly. But if you have any other questions, I'm happy to open it up for questions. So, someone told me there would be a Mountain Seek Ceremony for a new abbot within a year.

[09:09]

Well, within the year is rumor. No, I've never said anything about any time at all. This is timeless. Don't speculate on time. When the new abbot is elected, then I will have a stepping down ceremony and then there'll be a stepping up ceremony for the new abbot. So, we have to figure out what that means. What does that mean for having a new abbot and then having me here? I've seen problems arise in this area. but with other teachers and centers, so I don't want to have a big problem. One of the problems comes when the teacher says, well, it's time for me to retire, and then they invite somebody, and then they realize, oh, wait a minute, that's not what I was thinking at all.

[10:21]

Wait a minute, wait a minute, they're taking away my power. So then it becomes a big problem. So it's a kind of a challenge for how you empower someone else and then how you see everybody relating to that person in a way they used to relate to you. So that's a very tricky area. So it's kind of the ego problem. And so I want to make sure that I don't fall into that problem, I don't fall prey to that problem, because I want to make sure that when someone does succeed me in that position that I'm free of it.

[11:23]

I really appreciate your willingness to talk about all this in advance. And a question I had is, at San Francisco Zen Center they rotate the avenues, is that true? Yeah, so that's another point. And I was just wondering if that's something that's ever been discussed at board and practice committee meetings? We've only had one meeting so far. So, all this will come out as for discussion. Usually, the founder doesn't have a term. The founder is usually founder for life, unless they turn over to somebody else. But what's usual now is when there's a successor, then the successors have terms. That's the way things are kind of going nowadays, because people are a little wary about one person being there for life.

[12:37]

And also, you have so many senior students of grace and people who have received Dharma transmission work. It's a way to be more inclusive and to embrace all the different kinds of people who come to Zen practice and maybe avoid there being some people who will leave because it wasn't the person they wanted. Well, it's inevitable that some people will leave. Yeah, I realize that. This is always the case. I've never seen it different. Because the students are the students of the teacher, and the teacher is usually the abbot. The teacher doesn't have to be the abbot, but that's the way it is, because we're such a young ... we've only been doing this for 50 years. I'm trying to get my train of thought together.

[13:41]

Yeah, well, say that the students have this relationship with the abbot teacher. So then when someone else becomes the abbot, they don't have that relationship with that person. So a lot of them, a number of them will say, they just fade away because they don't have that relationship with the new person. And some people feel that because they're so close, they're peers with a new person, that it's hard for them to relate, for that person to be in that position. Not everyone, but some people. So it's inevitable that some people leave when the leadership changes. So that's why how, like the question is how can we have stability so that even though there's new leadership, the old leadership is still there without interfering with each other.

[14:53]

So that's the big question. So this is a kind of new paradigm and a great challenge. So it means that everybody has to let go of their ego. So that's a great challenge because that's what our practice is about. Yeah. Alan, many years ago, when Dolly was president, I think it was then, maybe it was before then, maybe it was when Ross was president, I wrote, but I think it was Dolly, I wrote a note and I put it into the safe deposit box and I said that Alan would be my successor in case I demised.

[15:57]

So even though Alan and I have, you know, a lot of sparring, I still believe that. So I have a lot of trust and faith in Ellen as my successor. And I would offer that to you, even though you may have some problems, to give both of us your support. Yes, that's right. Well, it's not exactly like that, but it's like approval. This is my choice, but the Sangha has to accept that and approve it. Otherwise, I'm not going to force something on people.

[17:04]

Yeah, so there is some—it's a little different, but it's basically very similar. Well, we haven't decided. We haven't decided what permanent means. No, it doesn't. We have to decide whether there would be that or a rotation, a term in it. When I became abbot at Zen Center, co-abbot with Rev at Zen Center, that was our first experiment with term limits.

[18:44]

And so it was four years with a three-year renewal, seven years altogether. But actually they asked me to do it for two more years, so that was nine years. So that's a lot of time, plenty of time to be an abbot, but one of the problems is the abbot has, when you're an abbot, your focal point is a teacher, and so you collect students, then you may still have your students, which is okay. For me, because I was in Berkeley as well as San Francisco, I still have students there but I hardly ever see them because I'm here, so that's a problem. Although I've worked it out over time so that a lot of my students I've given Dharma transmission to and they're independent.

[19:56]

Yeah, and they keep coming, yeah. But anyway, so there are problems with students teaching, but I can see myself at Zen Center, because I'm no longer the abbot, I'm a senior Dharma teacher, so I give classes and I go to Tassajara once in a while and do things. I envisioned myself as the senior dharma teacher. So, I still have my authority. I'm not giving away my authority. I'm just adding authority to our practice. Do you understand that? Yeah. What was it like being co-abbot? Can you say anything about how that worked out? Yeah. Well, that's very interesting because Reb and I have been practicing together since 1968 or something, 69, and we have different personalities, but basically we have the same feeling for practice.

[21:19]

And I remember back in, you know, we used to really be at each other's throats, But I remember in 70 or something like that, 71, 71 or two, we were at Tassajara and we met and we agreed that we were going to be practicing together for a long time, so we better learn how to get along with each other. And so when I became co-abbot with Reb, 1988, we decided that Neither one of us would have any special territory, but that we would just be abbots for the whole Zen Center, Green Gulch, Tassajara and Bay Street. But as it turned out, he moved into Green Gulch and the city center fell to me. But we agreed that we would always confer with each other and we'd never make any decisions unilaterally.

[22:29]

And if the other one made a decision unilaterally, we would call him on it. So we always discussed everything. There was never anything that went on in Zen Center that we didn't discuss with each other. Sometimes I would do something and he'd call me on it, or he would do something and I would call him on it. But we had that kind of relationship and I valued that. I thought it was really great. And it showed how we could harmonize and there were people who were drawn to Ram and there were people who were drawn to me, students, and we never interfered with each other that way, and some of his students eventually became my students and some of my students eventually became his students, but we never argued about that either. And when I was at Tassajara, his students were my shuso, and my students were his shuso.

[23:36]

So, there was a lot of interaction, and there was no... we never had that kind of argument over students or territory. That was really good. So, I have a good feeling for that, and I think that the agreements are important that you make, and how you go about doing things. that Alan brings to work, you know, we've had to do it with the resident community, so I think it's a really, I think there's, you know, it's both choosing someone who has, who is bright as avid and also choosing someone who

[24:44]

Well yeah, thank you, but we each have our propensities and you know, and our difficulties. But I think it's a good balance, for me it's always felt like a good balance because we're, you know, he can do certain things so well that I just don't do it all, and I can do certain things that are maybe difficult for him, but I think working together is beneficial to both of us, and we balance each other pretty well. So, it's a slow process. you know, getting, first getting used, you know, changes, when you have changes in this kind of practice, it really upsets people.

[26:00]

So one little change at a time, you know, is enough. And then people get used to that, then another little change, get used to that. That's kind of the way I see it. So that is, we all have to continue our confidence. What's come up for me, in China, when the Mongols came and took over China, and the Kublai Khan or whoever, was trying to figure out what religion to embrace, right? So he invited, like, what religion or what practice? He invited Tibetan Lama, and he invited Confucian. So, my question for you is, if, say, someone was coming here, Well, don't try to accumulate power.

[27:07]

The person in power has to set an example for everybody. That's the main, the person who is an authority, I mean, has to set an example for people. And I would say for someone who is has that authority to work with people in such a way that they think that they're the ones that have the authority, and they think they're the ones that are thinking all this up. So, to allow people to feel that they have their own authority which is not greater or less than what they actually have. So then everyone feels satisfied, unless they want too much. So, I'd say be very careful.

[28:20]

to let everybody be open and let everyone know what you're doing. When you do something and someone gets passed over who should notice about something, they get very angry and they can make things terrible for everybody. This is one of the worst things you can do is pass over people when you're communicating. and pass over someone who should know. So I think for someone who, this is basic, that for someone who has authority, to delegate authority, not do everything yourself, but delegate authority so that you're actually empowering people Something I was going to say.

[29:30]

There's a book, actually, which was put together back in the Tang Dynasty or the Sung Dynasty or something. It was translated by Thomas Cleary, and it's statements by the old teachers of how to act when you have a position of authority. I can't remember the name of the book. I have it. It's called Zen Lessons in Leadership. It's really good. Maybe we should study that. Yeah, that's good too. Very good, yeah. This may have nothing to do with it, but this is my question.

[30:33]

How do you think the Dalai Lama deals with that? Dalai Lama is, you know, he's in exile, he's been, and up to now, he has not acted out of animosity. I think he's seen the inevitability of what's happened, he doesn't like it, but he's not let himself be thrown off his seat by it. It's really amazing because as much as he's been humiliated and his people have been exiled, and I mean this is really pretty strong stuff that an ordinary person would probably not be able to take, but he's been able to, through humility and a strong sense of practice, to be able to absorb it or to deal with it

[31:49]

It's amazing, actually, quite amazing. He hasn't allowed this to, I don't want to say upset, meaning in a true word of turning over, you know, to unseat him. Pretty strong character. Well, you know, in a sense, see there's something about the diaspora which is interesting because both in the Jewish diaspora and in the Tibetan diaspora. I remember when Tartang Tulku came to Berkeley, he visited me in 1967 or something, and he wanted to know about how the Jews survived their diaspora.

[32:58]

You might know something about the Kabbalah, but you lose your homeland, but your message goes out into the world, and the world meets you and it's painful, but everything's painful, all change is painful. but they've been met with the world and their expression is a message for the world, it's great, which probably otherwise wouldn't be out there. But about a continuity, I guess those of us who are here, or have been here for a long time, are here because we appreciate the way things are, with their various little ups and downs, but there's been a continuity of

[34:31]

It's hard to define what the talking head is, but it was some other person, the psychic self, with coming into a position of more authority. I think it might be good to have some articulation Yeah, that's what we're working out. That will all be worked out. Believe me, no stone will be unturned. But in response to your question, or your statement, I visualize a council of elders who, so there's not like a big gap between, you know, the abbot and everybody else, but it's more like this It's not like this, it's more like this.

[35:39]

So that... checks and balances. Checks and balances is the important thing. You know, I don't see it as a lot different than it is already, to tell you the truth. I really don't. I think the continuity will just keep going. And I don't see it a lot different. A little different, but not a lot. I think Helen already takes care of all kinds of stuff, you know, that I don't. Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah. As you say, people do get a little anxious. Yes, people do. Yes. Yeah, I understand. One way to relate it is to binge on with

[36:51]

Yes. Yeah. I think a lot of people don't want to. I can't even talk about it. I also wanted to express my complete trust in Alan. Yeah. I make more bad jokes than you. We still have a few more minutes. So why is change painful? Because we get used to what we're doing. and then it changes and so we have to adjust.

[38:12]

So, when we know how to adjust, it's okay, but when it's hard to adjust, it's painful. What makes a complete practice? Oh, that's a good point. What makes a complete practice? Well, what I wanted to focus on was are practice positions, zazen, study, and relationship with the teacher. Those are like the four elements. Relationship with the teacher is like in dokusan, a practice discussion. And Zazen, of course, this is at the center, not just once in a while, but the rhythm of your Zazen practice, the steadiness, the continuity of your Zazen practice.

[39:21]

And study, which is to keep you focused and a position. So the position is what I really want to talk about. The way the practice turns is through everyone's participation. There's no practice without everyone's participation. So in order to put, sometimes people say, well, you know, I just can't, don't feel like I'm connected to the practice very much. And then I say, well, do you have a position? No. Well, of course. So, you know, the positions like Dohan Kokyo, director, and those are the big positions. But then there are the smaller positions like taking care of an altar or working in the garden or so many small positions that don't take a lot of time.

[40:33]

but plug you into the practice. Because everyone's participation is not just coming to Zazen and going home. That's one way to practice. If you don't have any time, just go to Zazen and go home. But to have that little something that you do, which helps to, like being Jikido, that helps to turn the practice. So no matter how seemingly important your position is or small your position is, they're both the same, they're equal. So someone who is the coordinator seems to have a big position, takes a lot of time. And someone who does Jikido once every three months seems to have a small position, but actually they're equal if you take the position seriously and you're moving the whole practice through your position, you're actually creating the practice.

[41:46]

So if we think there's the practice, there are all these people doing it and I will join them, that's not practice. Practice is when you are turning the practice and you turn the practice through this small position. which is equal to someone's being position, if you do it, if you're sincere and you're connected. The smallest atom creates the whole universe. So think about how you can participate in that way so that you are part of the turning of the practice and not just coming and going. Coming and going is okay. Don't get me wrong, but if you want to really complete your practice, you should have some position, no matter how big or small, and the positions rotate. So from your position, you move the whole practice, and then when you have a different position, like Saturday cook or something like that, you turn the whole practice from that position.

[42:56]

So everyone has authority. how you maintain your personal authority in the practice, and then you connect with everyone else. Does that make sense? So please do. Thank you.

[43:18]

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