and they all converted together. After that, Nagarjuna followed Kapimala for four years, and Kapimala answered an invitation of the Naga king, who presented him with a precious, wish-fulfilling jewel. This goes back to the main case at the beginning. So the Naga king invited Kapimala and gave him a precious wish-fulfilling jewel. And Nagarjuna then initiated the dialogue about the ultimate jewel and was finally deeply enlightened. Nagarjuna had studied different paths and had supernormal powers, which we would expect.

[01:06]

He often went to the palace of the Nagas and read the scriptures of the seven prehistorical Buddhas. Those are the seven Buddhas before Buddha. As soon as he saw the title, he would immediately know the heart of the scripture. He always taught a group of 500 Nagas. And the Naga kings, Nanda, Vandrananda, and others were all enlightened beings. They had all received the bequest of the former Buddhas and kept their scriptures in storage. And that's what I was talking about. Now that the affinity of humanity with the scriptural teachings of the great Shakyamuni Buddha is virtually exhausted, all of them should be stored in the Naga Palace. That's Kazan talking to us 700 years ago. This was the time of the decline, remember, the three times? See, now in the decline of the Dharma, all of the scriptures should be stored with the Nagas and we'll take good care of them.

[02:11]

Even though Nagarjuna had such great powers and used to converse with the great Naga kings, he still was not a truly enlightened man. He was just studying outside paths. Only after he became the disciple of the Buddhist master Kapimala, that he had a wide open clear eye. So everyone thinks that Nagarjuna was not only a Zen ancestor, he was also the ancestor of various other schools. The Shingon school also considered him, considers him as an original patriarch. The Tendai school also considers him as an ancestor and so did diviners and silk growers and others. I think in the same way, you know, the Kung Fu and various other martial artists considered Bodhidharma their ancestor at the Shaolin Monastery in China. The Zen school thinks of Bodhidharma as their ancestor in China, but then so do all the martial artists consider Bodhidharma as Shaolin method of kung fu and so forth.

[03:28]

as their ancestor. And so it's a very similar kind of thing here. So he gets a little, you know, he's getting a little hot under the collar about it, I think. The fact is that although he learned all the arts in the past, after he had become a Buddhist master, the disciples he abandoned still considered Nagarjuna as their own predecessor. These are demons and animals who mix up the true and the false and do not distinguish jewels from pebbles. When it comes to Nagarjuna's Buddhist teaching, only Kanadeva got the true transmission. The rest were all schools that he'd abandoned. This can be known from the present story. So Kanadeva is the ancestor after. Nagarjuna.

[04:30]

Nagarjuna asked, this jewel is the ultimate treasure of the world. Does it have form or is it formless? In reality, Nagarjuna knew to begin with. Do you consider it to have form? Do you consider it formless? He was clinging uncertainly to the views of existence and non-existence. That is why Kapi Mahler taught him, as he did. So what's he talking about here? What is he talking about? A field beyond. A field beyond. A field beyond. Well, yeah. He's talking about setting up a duality between form and impetus. He's talking about setting up a duality between form and impetus. And this, of course, is that is being presented here.

[05:32]

And the teaching of the Prajnaparamita. This jewel is the ultimate treasure of the world. What is this jewel? Please speak. The triple treasure. The triple treasure? That's an interesting answer. Would it be the prajna-paravya teaching? Well, but what is that? That all form is characterized by emptiness. And all emptiness is formed. How would you say it without saying it academically? I think that's a good characterization.

[06:51]

Does it have form or is it formless? And it's formless. It's formless and yet it has form. And it's neither form or formless. And it's just a jewel. And yet it's a jewel. It's not a jewel. It's not a jewel. It's not a jewel. It's a jewel, but it's not a jewel. We just call it a jewel. We just call it a jewel. Because it's not a jewel, we call it a jewel. The guardian is teaching about it, and if you call it a jewel, that's not it. If you call it not a jewel, that's not it.

[08:04]

If you call it, et cetera. No? No, when I heard this, I thought it just was just this moment with the jewel, not thinking about it. Was he talking about something I mean, sometimes when you read things, they're talking about some real specifics. sound unusual?

[09:20]

I thought I heard somebody screaming. There is a specific teaching about whatever it is that we're talking about, but we're not trying to talk about some specific teaching. I mean, here, I think it's better to look at it as... Well, there is a teaching, definitely a teaching about it, What can we say about it? You understand that? What can we say about it, not what can we say about teaching about it?

[10:24]

You understand? So he says, Nagarjuna asked, this jewel is the ultimate treasure of the world. What is the ultimate treasure of the world? Enlightenment? Yeah, that's good too. Enlightenment this moment. That's good. I think there are a lot of things that you can say. There's more than one thing that you can say. What else can you say? The ultimate treasure is sometimes a good question, you know, saying, what is the most important thing? Sometimes the most important thing is to find out what's the most important thing.

[11:33]

Can't we just call the next jewel of the world? Can't we just kind of suspend disbelief and take the phrase This is the best jewel in the world. I mean, because each person has another... But it's a wish. Yeah, everybody has a wish, right? Everybody has a wish, but this jewel only gives the ultimate wish. Yes. Well, how about... Is it even lonely?

[12:40]

That's good too. Buddha what? Buddha nature. But all of these things they were saying are rudimentary. All the things that people are saying are expressions of rudimentary. It we're always talking about. Yeah, it. What? Did somebody just hand you this? Did somebody what? Did somebody just hand you this? I see. Did somebody just hand you this jewel unsought for? Well, it seems to be, yes. When you stop seeking. When you stop seeking. Is it something that someone else can give you?

[13:41]

That's right. Can someone give it to you? He does go to the Night of Kings, though. Can someone give you something that you don't have? Can someone give you something that you don't have? Can someone give you something that you don't have? Teaching? Well, the teaching is about something. Teaching is important, but even though someone gives the teaching, is that the important thing?

[14:42]

If it grants you enlightenment, the ultimate important thing is what the teaching brings out. jewel is the ultimate treasure of the world does it have form or is it formless so formless means ultimate and form means phenomenal right is it phenomenal or is it ultimate so formless is like empty is it empty or does it have characteristics In reality, Nagarjuna knew to begin with.

[15:50]

Do you consider it to have form? Do you consider it formless? He was clinging uncertainly to the views of existence and non-existence. Non-existence is formless and existence is form. That is why Kapi Mala taught him as he did. Actually, even if it is a worldly jewel, when you talk about its true reality, It is neither, it is not formed or formless. It is just a jewel. Moreover, the jewel stuck in the wrestler's forehead, the jewel in the king's top knot, the Naga king's jewel, and the jewel inside the drunken man's robe, scriptural metaphors for inherent Buddha nature, are not within the view of others. So it is difficult to discern whether or not they have form. I don't know, but these are all, we've heard the stories, all these little, you know, the jewel in the wrestler's forehead, the jewel in the king's top knot, the higher king's jewel, and the jewel inside the drunken man's robe.

[17:02]

The jewel inside the drunken man's robe is the jewel that was put there, sewn inside his robe. And he didn't know it was there, and so he went through the world not knowing that he had this thing. It was a kind of metaphor for the fact that this jewel is always there in your robe or in your hat or, you know, you're always carrying it around with him, but you don't know you have it. Everyone is carrying this jewel around with him, but people don't know that they have it. that's what this is about so they're not within the view of others so it's difficult to discern whether or not they have form yet these jewels are all mundane jewels not the ultimate jewel of the way this is jewels within form but not the formless jewel

[18:11]

Needless to say, he could not know that this jewel is not even a jewel. Truly, we must be careful. So if a jewel is not a jewel, what is it? Why do we call it a jewel? That's interesting. What if actually discerning this jewel means that you are enlightened? Well, to be enlightened also means to see that there's nothing particular about anything. That's just a feeling I get to me. Uh-huh. I just think of somebody like handing you a potato. A potato. A potato. I was kind of puzzled

[19:40]

I am puzzled by how we got from a jewel, which this king gave, to Kapamala. And who is the king? He's kind of a temporal ruler. He's not the light person. He's not the great spirit. How does he happen to have the most incredible jewel with all this power. And how does it go from a jewel that is just the greatest jewel in the world to something that is more than this? And that puzzles me. And how is it becoming something? Well, these things are delivered by various means. Some being that delivers something is not necessarily the creator of it.

[20:57]

They're just the kind of messenger. But the jewel can be delivered by anybody. And if we read on, we'll see what, maybe a question will be addressed here. Zen master Zwancha said, the whole body is a jewel. Who would you inform? He also said, the whole universe is a single bright jewel. Really, this cannot be discerned by human views. Even though it be a mundane jewel, it does not come from outside. All appears from people's own minds. This is a famous story, refers to a famous story.

[22:00]

And when Dogen wrote his fascicle, One Bright Pearl, about Swanshaw. The story goes something like, Swanshaw used to always say, the whole universe is one bright pearl. Pearl is a, the character for pearl and jewel is the same. So often the term pearl is used instead of jewel. So the whole universe is one bright pearl, he used to say. And so one day a monk came up to Swanshaw and said, you're always saying the whole universe is one bright pearl. How do you understand this? And Swanshaw said, the whole universe is one bright pearl. There's no need to understand it. Or what need is there to understand it?

[23:01]

This is what he's referring to, I think, in this. what he's saying, but the way it's expressed here, who would you inform, makes you, you know, what's that about? So, who would you inform? It's very different from Dogen's, or the way that Dogen's is translated. The whole body is a jewel. The whole body meaning the whole universe. Or, the whole human body, also could mean. But it really means, specifically means the universe. The whole universe is one, is a jewel. So you're saying, who should I inform? Who is outside of it? Yeah, who's outside of it? Who is, who could you tell about it? He also said, the whole universe is a single bright jewel.

[24:09]

in the universe, really this cannot be discerned by human views. In other words, one cannot, there's no way to view this because our eyes aren't looking this way. The eye can't see itself. Even though it be a mundane jewel, it does not come from outside because there is no outside. from people's own minds. I think when he says it all appears from people's own minds, it means that the mind is doing the discriminating. The whole universe is one bright pearl, one bright jewel, but it's the human mind that discriminates between one thing and another and creates the

[25:11]

dualistic views. Therefore, Indra, king of the gods, used it as a wish-fulfilling jewel. When sick, if you apply this jewel to the ailing part of the sickness, to the ailing part, the sickness disappears. When troubled, if you put this jewel on your head, the trouble spontaneously disappears. Supernatural powers and magical displays also depend on this jewel. Among the seven treasures of a ruling monarch there is a wish-fulfilling jewel from which all rare treasures are born. Its use is infinite. In this way there are differences according to the ordinary and higher psychological states of human experience. wish-fulfilling jewel in the human world is also called a grain of rice.

[26:13]

This is called a precious gem. Compared to the jewels in the heavens, this is considered artificial, yet it is called a jewel. Moreover, when Buddhism dies out, the relics of Buddha will become wish-fulfilling jewels reigning everywhere. They will also become grains of rice to help people. remains of a Buddha called Sharira. And, you know, when the body is cremated, there are these bone particles left over. And according to Buddhist mythology, when certain sages are cremated, there are these fragments that they call Sharira, which are considered very holy. And they're put into the stupas. And that's what he's talking about. Sometimes when kind of sages, some famous Buddhist is cremated.

[27:21]

People are, you know, sitting around to see if they're finding sharia. You've seen them? Yeah. When Master Kusan was cremated. Who? Master Kusan, the Korean headmaster. It was cremated. They found these little opals of different shapes. I don't know. I saw them. Stephen had some. What can I say? So it's the time you laugh, but you never know. So that's what he's talking about. Even a grain of rice contains the whole universe. Is it form or is it formless?

[28:23]

One grain of rice contains the whole formless universe and the whole universe of form as well. So are they the same or different? Like Arjuna says, Form is emptiness and emptiness is form. And yet form is form and emptiness is emptiness. And everything is just the way it is. A jewel is just a jewel. A jewel is not a jewel and what's not a jewel is a jewel. And a jewel is a jewel and a jewel is not a jewel. And yet, it's just what it is. That's a kind of, covers all the bases. So the wish-fulfilling jewel of the human world is also called a grain of rice.

[29:38]

This is called a precious gem. Dogen says, when you wash the rice, you should consider every grain and not waste anything or not let any of the rice be washed away with the sand. When you wash the rice, you should be very careful that the rice doesn't get washed away with the sand. But the sand, it's also as important as the rice. That's a famous poem. Are you washing the sand out of the rice or washing the rice out of the sand? Even if it appears as a Buddha body, as grains of rice, as myriad phenomena, or as a single jewel, as one's own mind manifests, it becomes a body five feet tall.

[30:53]

It becomes a three-headed figure. It becomes a body wearing fur and horns. It becomes all kinds of forms. So then you should discern that mind jewel, which of course, as Matt says in Buddha nature, on footnote 61, Buddha nature is what he's talking about it becomes all these things Buddha nature becomes all these things without losing its shape because it doesn't have any special shape and all these phenomena are expressions of its non-shape Now he starts to change his story, and he's talking about how to practice. For the rest of his story, he starts telling us how to practice. And he says, do not live secluded in mountain forests, seeking peace and quiet like that ancient monk, the one in the story.

[31:59]

Really, this is a mistake that has been made in the past, and in recent times also, by those who have not yet realized enlightenment. Still, people say that mixing with others, studying in all activities is not tranquil. Mixing with others, studying in all activities is not tranquil. So they want to live alone in the mountain forest to quietly sit in meditation to carry out the way. So he's criticizing people who want to leave the world and go to the mountains and do some kind of ascetic practice by themselves. This is... very characteristic of Japanese practice. And I don't know, I don't think the Chinese are quite this, had this much emphasis on practicing with others, but Japanese have always had this idea about don't go off by yourself to practice, but

[33:09]

you'd always practice with other people and they've taken it to extremes to where they come and press loads and they all have their cameras, they all take the same picture, go to the same restaurant, see the same movie, go home. he says those who say this and then hide in the mountains those who say this and then hide in the mountains practicing wrongly mostly get into aberrations because of this if you want to know why it is because they do not know reality and they mainly put themselves first so this is kind of saying if you go off to practice by yourself you don't have anybody to check you And it's easy to just get into aberrant kinds of practices, which people do.

[34:15]

This is one reason why giving people meditation instruction may not always be so helpful. Because a lot of people get meditation instruction, and then they go off by themselves to practice. And they think that they're doing zazen. And they're doing all kinds of things. But it looks like zazen. that it's not really zazen. And it takes a while. It takes time to practice with other people before you actually realize what zazen really is. And not everybody who's sitting realizes or understands what zazen is. Even if you may be practicing for 10 years. And still, and it looks like you're doing zazen, but it may not really be zazen. the admonition is always to practice with teachers and practice with sangha and not just to go off the mountains by yourself and do something alone he says people like this say Zen master Dahme sat among the pines and mist with a miniature shrine on his head so that if he moved the shrine would fall down

[35:38]

Tatsugami Roshi used to say, said that when he was a young monk practicing at age, he used to put a can of mayo down his head so that if he fell asleep it would fall down, you know, create a big clamor. Tatsugami Roshi. Or a glass of water. Or a box of stones. Yeah, a box of stones or something. People do this sometimes. so that you don't have to fall asleep or what? When he was a young monk. He had to do something like that with marbles. Yeah, something like that. He said nails, I think. But it wouldn't work with me. It would wake you up. Yeah. So, Zen Master Da Me, he sat among the pines in mist with a miniature shrine on his head.

[36:45]

Zen Master Guishan also practiced in the clouds and mists with tigers and wolves for companions. We too should practice this way. This is really laughable. We should know that the ancients practiced this way while awaiting appropriate conditions to teach. In other words, because they didn't have any place else to go, so they were waiting to, you know, biding their time until they had students that practiced this way. Um, where am I? That was the human language, that was the hardest, huh? Yeah. We know, we know, after he, um, had done the transmission, he went and became a cook. with the hunters, with a group of hunters for about 15 years. And he used to put the meat into the stew, but he would always take the meat out of his own stew when he ate it.

[37:48]

You should know that the ancients practiced this way while awaiting appropriate conditions to teach, in order to mature their work on the way after having become enlightened and received the approval of a true teacher. Dame received their true seal of Matsu and Guishan received the transmission of Baijong. It was after their enlightenment that they lived alone in the mountains. It was not what the ignorant envisioned. People of ancient times like Yin-shan and Luo-shan did not live alone before they attained enlightenment. They were real people who had realized the way. Great sages with clear eyes. His virtuous conduct was great in their time. who left their things to later ages. If you live in the mountains while neglecting to investigate what you should investigate and failing to arrive where you should arrive, you will be like monkeys. This is a serious lack of the spirit of the West. If people just practice to train themselves, they become followers of conditionally enlightened.

[38:55]

Oh, they become followers or conditionally enlightened. Followers means shravakas. people who just listen to the donna. And conditionally enlightened means prachecha buddhas. People who have achieved some realization but they don't know, they don't help others with it. And they will become spoiled seed for naught. Spoiled seed means that they are scorched seeds in that they cut out the seeds of buddhahood. Therefore, after you have practiced Zen carefully and thoroughly in a community, having studied with one who knows for a long time, when the great matter is thoroughly clear, and you have just about finished clarifying the matter and mastering yourself, you may say that deepening the roots and strengthening the stems for a while is the teaching imparted by the ancient masters. But Dogen, the founder of our school,

[39:57]

This was to prevent people from aberration. His successor, Ajo, said, My disciples should not live alone. Even if you have attained the way, you should cultivate and refine it in the community. Nonetheless, to say that those who are still studying should not live alone. Anyone who goes against this will is not a member of my school. Zen master Yuanmu also said, after they had obtained the essence of Zen, the ancients would live in the mountains for 10 or 20 years, forgetting all about human society, forever forsaking the realm of dust. In these times, we cannot presume to aspire to this. So that's another interesting thing to say, even though they did it then. It's not the thing that we should do now.

[41:00]

Long, long, Hui Nan said, rather than grow old in the mountain forests, preserving the way by yourself, is it not better to guide people in the community? So this is the kind of question. You can just kind of go off by yourself and not help other people in the community. The great Zen masters of recent eras have all disapproved of living alone. especially since people's faculties and capacities are all inferior to those of ancient times. They should just stay in communities to practice, refine, and master the way. Even one of the ancients was so heedless that he wrongly indulged in peace and quiet to the extent that a new student came to ask him for help. He did not reply when he should have getting angry instead. That's the person in the beginning of the story, right? So we know that his body and mind is not yet harmonized because he turned into a snake.

[42:02]

If you live alone, apart from your teacher, even if you can preach like Nagarjuna, you will still be making some kind of retribution for your actions. You have been able to hear the right teaching of Buddha because you have planted roots of goodness. The teaching says not to approach kings and politicians, but not but do not therefore wish to live alone, unencumbered. Just progress diligently on the work of the way and single-mindedly pierce through the source of the Dharma. This is the real teaching of the Buddha. Today I have a humble saying to bring out the preceding story. The solitary light, aware space, is always free from darkness. The wish-fulfilling jewel disturbs its shining radiance. I'm sorry, distributes it. And then Cook translates it as, the orphan life, meaning the solitary life, the orphan life, marvelously vast, is never darkened.

[43:12]

The wish-fulfilling money jewel shines everywhere. spends a lot of time talking about not practicing alone. And this is... He thinks he doesn't protest too much. Why would that appear in that particular story? It would fit almost anywhere, isn't it? Yeah, it would fit almost anywhere. It seems like... He said, his comment on the story is that Nagarjuna was sending him months away. Well, it was the monk in the white robe. Or the monk. Does that turn out to be Nagarjuna?

[44:16]

No. He went to hear Nagarjuna. Oh, oh, oh, right. He went to hear him. But it seems to be about him. I mean, he's an example. He's used as an example. And also, Nagarjuna was in the mountains. But he was teaching 500 Nagas. But he wasn't by himself. So Nagarjuna is always teaching a lot of Nagas. But Suzuki Rishi was always very adamant about people not going off and practicing by themselves, which he always felt selfish, self-centered practice for your own benefit. And this is a very important part of practice for us.

[45:25]

Japanese Buddhists always consider doing something by yourself as self-centered practice, doing something to please yourself, doing something for your own benefit as selfish practice. So one should be practicing for the benefit of other and not just pursuing your own self-enlightenment. This becomes a very important basis of practice. Well, Bodhidharma was already enlightened, and he was waiting for his

[46:26]

opportunity to teach, like he says in here. He said, these people went off sometimes in the mountain and they had a dialogue with the emperor. And so he saw that this wasn't working out. And he left. And so he, according to the story, of course, so he went to the Shaolin Monastery and sat facing the wall. by himself, but he also had four students, four disciples that received his bones, marrow, flesh, blood. I was thinking about this earlier when they were talking about turning away because Bodhi Dharma sat in a cave while the wax stood out in snow, right, and ended up having to cut off his arm. But there was a difference...

[47:28]

Right. That's a different emphasis. Because he didn't say, don't bother me. I'm too busy. I want to be by myself. That was not what it is. I was wondering if it was that he didn't produce angry thoughts. He didn't invite the guy in. Well, because it seemed like the emphasis in this story in some ways was on the fact that— Yeah, he wasn't producing repulsive thoughts. He was an old man, too, I remember when he got put in the shop there, wasn't he? Wasn't he? I don't know what it was going on in years? Yeah, he was. He was afraid. Well, but according to the story, he was, he was waiting for somebody to come.

[48:39]

And, uh, he, but he was, he was also testing, testing students to see what, what the student was willing to He wanted a sincere student. So he cut off his arm and said, well, is this enough? What's that? You didn't have to do that. Also, there's another story that his arm was cut off by a bandit. question about formlessness. Would things kind of inherently remain formless if at all possible?

[49:43]

You know, we're talking about things changing from one thing to another. Would things, would the mirror stay empty if at all possible? Would the mirror remain empty? Or would things remain formless, or stay in a formless Everything is in a formless condition right now. It changes the form by need where there's a need or a tug. All forms are formless. But it's the appearance of form. There is the appearance of form, yeah. There are formal appearances. all forms are appearing as forms moment by moment but they're also appearing as different forms moment by moment even though they look the same for a while everything in this room is changing continuously there's no form that has its own inherent existence

[51:00]

But can the thing that drives in a long distance of windshelves is desired, or a need? I mean, the wave, you talk about the ocean being flat unless you drop a stone in it. So unless there's some thing, some activity to come in. Right. And then there's one wave drives the next. The wind drives the waves. What makes waves is wind. And our wind is? And our wind is always going. It's called karma. Karma, volitional activity, is always going. And it's called desire. It's just driving that, one thing or another. But that's also the way we work this out in the sense of truth. Well, yes. You have no choice. We become Buddhas within form. I mean, we express Buddha as form.

[52:05]

We express Buddha within the realm of karma and forms. We're also expressing emptiness. Emptiness is being expressed through the forms. So as well as this form world which we see is also the world of emptiness that's why all these forms are the forms of emptiness this is all everything that you see is an expression of emptiness because nothing is substantial everything is continually changing so another word for emptiness is what? Formalness? Interdependence. Is the use of formalness here synonymous with emptiness and interdependence in this context?

[53:15]

Yeah. Everything is depending on everything else. But nothing is the same from moment to moment. And the configuration is always changing. The balance of things and the picture of things is always changing. Every single second, the whole universe is taking a different configuration. But everything in the universe is involved in that configuration on each moment. And the only substantial thing is change. talked about substance but there is no nothing that remains substantial at the same time everything is every moment and everything is

[54:34]

Emptiness also means something like eternal. Within all this movement, everything is completely still. Reality is completely still within all this movement. This is... Is it... Form or is it impetus? So whatever you say eliminates the other side. So you can't say...

[55:46]

Solitary light, marvelously vast, is always free from darkness. The wish-fulfilling jewel distributes its shining radiance in all activity. So does it have form or is it formless? Formless means still and form means in motion. Is it the ocean or is it the waves? They can't be separated. Function and essence cannot be separated. Right.

[56:58]

There's no shadow. That's right. This is the place where there's no shadow. Well, that's the appearance. we're talking about sunlight and shadow. The end of the sandokai literally is do not waste your time in sunlight and shadows. In other words, either in the light or the dark side. lost between the light side between the phenomenal and absolute.

[58:09]

We're going to turn peace be still. Turn what? Turn peace be still. Peace be still? Yes, I've heard that. If you want peace, be still. If you want peace, be still. If you want peace, be still. I'm saying is there some source of that? I don't know where it comes from. Yeah, in the Bible it says be still and know that I am. But we should also move around.

[59:18]

What I'm trying to say is that every phenomena is also the essence of sacredness, because it's not separate. Things are not separate from their essence. everything is an expression of the essence, simply stated. So peace is this realization to not try to escape from activity, but to find reality in each moment.

[60:46]

You can't control all the circumstances around us. As soon as you start to make everything quiet down around you, something pops up behind you, and then you turn around and it pops up over here. So you can't control circumstances. You can only become one with them. Anyway, next time, we want to study Kanadeva, which is the next one. him as transmission to kind of data.

[61:48]

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