I know to chase the truth that the time is just as worse. We have a novelty. That's good because I can hardly read my notes. We're going to put lights up But we decided not to. But the fixtures are still there. Underneath the wall. In case we ever went to. One thing that... I don't know how necessary it is to take notes.

[01:05]

Somehow it feels, if you want to write something in your book, you know, that's one thing, but to take extensive notes, it kind of feels a little too much like a class. So it's OK, but I think it's good to just concentrate on our discussion and our feeling about the case rather than our idea about it. So, I leave it up to you.

[02:34]

So today, called The World Honored One Points to the Ground. And I'll read the introduction, the case, and the commentary, and then go back before reading Tian Tong's poem, and then the commentary on the poem. So in the introduction, Wansong's introduction, he says, as soon as a single mote of dust arises, the whole earth is contained therein.

[03:43]

With a single horse and a single lance, the land is extended. Who is this person who can be master in any place and meet the source in everything? That's a nice introduction. And then he presents the case. As the World Honored One was walking with the congregation, he pointed to the ground with his finger and said, this spot is good to build a sanctuary. Indra, emperor of the gods, took a blade of grass, stuck it in the ground and said, And in Wansong's commentary, he says, when the World Honored One spread his hair to cover mud and offered flowers to Dipankara Buddha, the lamp, that Buddha pointed to where the hair was spread and said, a sanctuary should be built in this place.

[04:50]

At that time, an elder known as the foremost of the wise planted a marker in that spot and said, The building of the sanctuary is finished. The gods scattered flowers and praised him for having wisdom while an ordinary person. The story Tian Tong quotes here is much the same. I say the World Honored One's ancestral work was given over to Dipankara. Then there was the elder. Getting the beginning, he took in the end. Now it is given over to Tian Tong, who must produce a matching literary talisman. That's his introduction to Wang Song's poem, which we're not going to read now. So going back to the introduction, I think I'll talk about what is a sanctuary.

[05:56]

people would gather around various well-known sacred or holy spots. As you know, especially in the old days, nowadays people don't think so much about auspicious spots or power spots or You know, when we look at a hill, we just say, oh, there's a hill, you know, the hill over there. But in the olden days, people used to say, used to name every hill. And they would say, oh, this is Rabbit Hill, and that's Moonlight Hill or Mountain or something, you know. They'd give everything a name. Every valley and every rise would have a name. and the name would have some connotation or some feeling about how people felt about it.

[07:21]

And so they recognized each, the whole, well, they recognized the whole area, their whole environment, and their connection with it. I had, you know, Virginia developers are beginning to encroach on the old battlefields. And they want to build developments and shopping malls where the Battle of Bull Run was. This is a big controversy that's happening right now, and not just one place, but many of the old historical monuments. People just see them as just a potential shopping mall. There's no connection.

[08:23]

It's just something to be used. But people in the past have always had connection with sacred places and special places. And every place is special in some way. Every hill and valley was special in some way. So, in India, people would worship, or by worship I mean, the literal word worship means to see worth, see something as worthy, actually. The word worship has a lot of connotations, but strictly speaking it means to find worth, to find value. So they would find value, some kind of spiritual value, in old living things.

[09:33]

The oldest living things are trees or rocks. And people considered rocks as living things, which they are. And I heard of, in India, where people had kept a huge snake, maybe 25 or 30 feet long, and maybe two or three feet around. And it had been living for so long that nobody can remember when it was born. So people come from all around and pay homage to this old living thing. So in the beginning, these old living things would become a gathering place. Special things, special old living beings would become a place where people would gather and have some kind of communion.

[10:37]

spiritual communion. And then people would build pillars or some kind of a pillar or a post that people would gather around as a focal point for spiritual gathering. And King Ashoka, who accepted Buddhism as the first emperor in India who accepted Buddhism as a religion, he built these big pillars, tall, very tall, beautiful pillars, which are still standing. And then people built stupas.

[11:39]

And stupa became a reliquary. In the stupa they would put relics of the arhats. And they would put old sutras in the stupas. And then people would circumambulate sutra. and gather around the sutra on various occasions. So these are kind of sanctuaries. Anyway, I have a Buddha from Thailand, and when you shake it, there's a relic inside.

[13:09]

Probably Shakyamuni Buddha's too. But, you know, there are innumerable Shakyamuni Gurus all over the world. So, if it's the bone, you know, a Sharira, when they cremated old monks, they would leave, you know, pick through the bones and find these little pieces of kind of like gems, which they call shariras, relics. And those would prove that this person was really a saint, you know, if they had these little, if they found these little gems, gem bones. And they used to put those in stupas and in reliquaries.

[14:15]

But there actually is. I've seen photographs. I have a book that has the reliquaries that has a relic of Moggallana and Shariputra. And these were found in a very old stupa. And who knows how many people were made Moggallana in Shariputra. But you can consider all the old saints as Shakyamuni Buddha. They all had the same bones. So a sacred place, a sanctuary is like a sacred place.

[15:21]

A place where one feels in touch with the absolute nature. So a tree, a pillar, a stupa, a temple, a monastery, field, a mountain. They used a parking barrier at Golden Gate Park. The what? They used a parking barrier at Golden Gate Park. The parking barrier at Golden Gate Park. In other words, you can't get— They make Golden Gate Park into a sanctuary. Well, somebody just got rid of a parking barrier, put it in some trees and everybody started gathering around it. Oh, yes, right. It became a kind of... It looked like a Sheila Langham, so that's why... It's the other... Right. Yeah.

[16:23]

So, in his introduction, one song says... Well, I just want to say a little bit more about that before I go into that. So, a sanctuary is a kind of refuge. The Three Treasures is a sanctuary. Buddhadharma and Sangha is a sanctuary. Zazen is a sanctuary. Practice is a sanctuary. So, in this introduction, Wong Tsung says, as soon as a single mote of dust arises, the whole world, the whole earth is contained therein. The meaning of a single mote of dust, there is a koan in the Blue Cliff Record about fuketsu's mote of dust. When you raise a mote of dust, it's like building a sanctuary, is what it means.

[17:32]

Building a place to practice. In this commentation, it means Lifting a speck of dust means to create a place where people can practice. And as soon as a single mote of dust arises, the whole earth is contained. So wherever it is that you practice, everything is included. It looks like we are practicing as individuals for our own benefit. But this is what it looks like. But when you understand what practice is, you realize that your practice includes yourself, but it's not just for yourself.

[18:38]

So to lift a mote of dust can mean when you practice, your practice includes the whole world. But a mote of dust is very small, right? And it's kind of the microcosm Then he says, with a single horse and a single lance, the land is extended. So from a speck of dust, a horse charges forth across the land and a lance is something that points the way. Right. So this has the feeling of bounding out into the world. Mode of dust is like something that stays here.

[19:49]

And a horse man with a lance is like charging out into the world. So these are two aspects, two sides. One is the mode of dust which contains everything. And the other is the horse and the lance. And there must be a person there. Who is this person? Who is this person who can be master in either place? This isn't any place, in either place or any place and meet the source in everything. So as the horse and the rider and the lance are galloping into the world, where does that person meet the source? So who is this person? Who can be the master in any place and meet the source in everything?

[20:54]

So this is introducing the case. So this case is about the ordinary and the holy. Holy, another term that needs to be defined is holy, which means whole. We think of holy as, we have put a lot of connotations onto the word holy, but strictly speaking it means whole or complete. We can use the word holy if we understand that it means complete or whole. And ordinary means the particular, right?

[21:59]

Particular and the whole. That's what this is about. Holy and the particular. The ordinary, which is called the ordinary. But ordinary, as we know, also means the holy. So, as the World Honored One, here's the case, as the World Honored One was walking with the congregation, so he must have been walking, taking a walk with his disciples, which included other people other than his disciples, actually, because he has Indra in here. And who else? I don't know. But he was walking, taking a stroll in the morning with all these beings, and he suddenly stopped and he pointed the ground with his finger and he said, this spot is good to build a sanctuary.

[23:08]

And Indra, emperor of the gods, took a blade of grass and stuck it in the ground and said, the sanctuary is built. That's it. The world onward smiled. Indra in the mythology of Indian mythology, Indra is king or the emperor, but similar to Zeus in the Greek pantheon. And Indra is always coming in, you know, in the Buddhist sutras. And Indra comes in periodically, you know, in order to be an actor in the little dramas that are set up in the Buddhist sutras. So Indra took a blade of grass and stuck it in the ground and said, the sanctuary is built.

[24:24]

The Buddha smiled. So that's the story. So what does this all mean? So in his commentary, one song says, when the world honored one spread his hair to cover mud and offered That Buddha pointed to where the hair was spread and said a sanctuary should be built in this place. So this is an old mythological story. Dipankara Buddha was several kalpas before Shakyamuni Buddha. But Shakyamuni Buddha, before he was Shakyamuni Buddha, was a He had long hair. Well, in Chushri, you know, in China, it's pictured as a youth with long black hair.

[25:26]

But that's beside the point. So he had this long hair, and he was keen to offer flowers. He knew that Dipankara was coming his way down the road, so he had these flowers that he was going to offer to him. As Dipankara came down the road, there was a mud puddle in the road. And so Shakyamuni got down and spread his hair across the puddle, so that the Buddha could walk across the puddle without getting his feet muddy. And Dipankara means, Dipa means lamp, called the lamp Buddha. So the lamp, that Buddha pointed to where the hair was spread and said, a sanctuary should be built in this place. So this is similar to this other story. So now Shakyamuni is saying the same thing, right?

[26:30]

But we don't know the reason. He's just saying it. It's a little different, isn't it? For no apparent reason, he says, oh, this is a good place to build a sanctuary. And Indra didn't hesitate. picked a plate of grass and said, there it is. He didn't say why or where for, he just, okay. At that time, there was an elder known as the foremost of the wise who planted a marker on that spot. And he said, the building of the sanctuary is now finished. The gods scattered flowers and praised him for having wisdom as an ordinary person. Well, an ordinary person. So, the story that Tian Tong quotes here is much the same. So, the story meaning the case. The story that Tian Tong quotes here is much the same.

[27:31]

I say, this is Wansong talking, I say the World Honored One's ancestral work was given over to Tipankara. Then there was the elder. So you see, first Dipankara did it. Then the elder said something. And getting the beginning, he took in the end. What does that mean? Getting the beginning, he took in the end. A circle. Can't hear you. Circle. Yeah, circle. But I mean, what circle? Circle of? I mean, what do you mean by a circle? It's not a circle. It's not a circle. Can you be a little more specific? So we're talking about what the elder did, right?

[28:45]

getting the beginning, he took in the end. It may not be so important, you know, but what are the things, samsara, is that the beginning? Or samsara to samsara? I think it's a continuing thing. Well, there is a beginning and an end, right? There's something that's at the beginning, and when there's something else, it's the end. The circle doesn't have a beginning and an end. So what's the beginning and what's the end? It seems to me the beginning is just a declaration of the place, and then someone manifests it.

[29:53]

That's the ending. You know, getting to the beginning, he wound it up. He took in the end. I think that's what he's saying. So now it is given over to Tian Tong, who must produce a matching statement, literary telling. Sometimes clear his language. I want to say something else about sanctuary. Sanctuary is... I think the most important aspect is practice. Practice is the sanctuary for Zen students.

[30:57]

Continuous practice. And continuous practice doesn't depend on any special thing. So they're walking along, and Shakyamuni Buddha said, right here is a good place to build a sanctuary. What? Why? Why here? What's so special about this place? And then Indra just picks a blade of grass. No special thing. So this is Tian Tong's poem. Before you do that, could you say something about spreading his ear to cover mud? Bringing? Spreading his ear to cover mud. Something more? Yeah.

[32:02]

Do you have something to say? No. Didn't I say it? Yeah. Like Sir Walter Robin. Yeah, like Sir Walter Robin. He laid down his hair so that Buddha could walk across his hair without stepping in the mud. I feel like there's something else there, but I don't know what it is. I think that's the story. This happens frequently, or once in a while. There are other Buddhist stories that are the same. A woman who laid her hair down for Buddha. People do lay their hair down in the Buddhist citrus for Buddhists to walk across.

[33:07]

So this is not uncommon, actually. But there's also, like the first relic of Shakyamuni Buddha was the cutting off of his hair. So you get the Shakyamuni Buddha and the really old story of Dipankara with this long hair that is enough to cover a mud puddle. And then the first, well the story, the legends of the first relic is that when he cuts off his hair, the gods come down and pick it up and take it up to whichever happened to do this, I don't remember which happened, but so there is sort of a beginning and an end, a circle coming forward just like that. using what's at hand.

[34:26]

It's another example of using what's at hand because he didn't have anything, right? So he just took what was at hand and without, as a humbling gesture, without thinking maybe, you know, he said, oh, this is the only thing that I have. So he used that. Not only was it the only thing he had, but it was the thing that needed to be done. So you said sanctuary was like practice. It was, that was the thing that needed to happen. So that was the place to build the sanctuary, in this action. Right. So this is a noble act, selfless act. And where there's a selfless act, that's a sanctuary. Sanctuary, actually, is that place where there's no self. We say, well, I have a self.

[35:32]

What do you mean, no self? So we're always bothered with this statement of no self, because we have one. No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, but we have a nose and eyes. We have a self. But the self is not centered on the self. It means no self. No self means the self is not centered on the self. So to get rid of the self means to find the self, which is what the koan is about. So Tian Tong has a verse.

[36:35]

He says, the boundless spring of a hundred plants, picking up what comes to hand, he uses it knowingly, referring to Indra. The 16-foot tall golden body, a collection of virtuous qualities, The 16-foot golden body is Buddha. That's one of the epithets of Buddha. But it means Buddha as a person, but it also means Buddha in a more universal way. The Buddha body extends everywhere. So he says, 16 foot tall, golden body, a collection of virtuous qualities. So the Buddha body has no self.

[37:38]

It's just a collection of virtuous qualities. So causally, The 16-foot tall golden body, a collection of virtuous qualities, casually leads him by the hand into the red dust. Able to be master in the dusts, from outside creation, a guest shows up. Everywhere, life is sufficient in its way, no matter if one is not as clever as others. And then Tian Tong has a commentary on that. Excuse me, Wan Song has a commentary on Tian Tong's verse. Tian Tong first versifies the case with four lines. Those are the first four lines. Then sets up the main beam and expresses it the enlightening way.

[38:44]

So the first four lines is where he sets up the case. the boundless spring on a hundred plants. Picking up what comes to hand, he uses it knowingly. The sixteen-foot-tall golden body, a collection of virtuous qualities, casually leads him by the hand into the red dust. Able to be master of the dusts, from outside creation, a guest shows up. Those, I believe, are the first four lines. Then he sets up the main beam and expresses the enlightening way. The main being meaning the main point, meaning the point. And then he expresses it in the last two lines. Everywhere life is sufficient in its way, no matter if one is not as clever as others. Everywhere life is sufficient in its way means what?

[40:01]

That everything is complete. Yeah, everything is complete for one who trusts. Everything is complete for one who trusts. If you don't trust, then it's never complete. Life is sufficient in its way if you trust life. If you don't trust it, it's not sufficient. And it doesn't matter if one is clever or not. Dogen says, to penetrate the way, you do not have to be clever. intelligent or lack of intelligence, clever or not clever, just sincerely practice and trust in the Way. So then, Zhaozhou, how did he get in here?

[41:11]

and used it as the 16-foot body of gold. The World Honored One pointed the way. The wind was blowing. Indra brought forth what was at hand. I don't know how Jajo got in here, but it could be that there's a story of Jajo doing the same thing. Jajo picked up a blade of grass and used it as the 16-foot body of gold. In other words, this is the Buddha. This is it. The world honored one pointed the way the wind was blowing and Indra brought forth what was at hand. And then referring to the second line, Tiatong's verse emerges from the merging of subject and object. Not just the ancient sages, but you too can be host within the dust right now. and also come as a guest from outside creation.

[42:20]

There's a, in the Tenzo Kyokun, Dogen's message to the Tenzo the head cook. He says, maintain an attitude that tries to build great temples from ordinary greens. And then he says, handle even a single leaf of green in such a way that it manifests the body of Buddha. In other words, treat some ordinary greens as the body of Buddha. This in turn allows the Buddha to manifest through the leaf. So this is full circle. You treat everything as Buddha and Buddha emerges from everything.

[43:34]

It doesn't have to be anything special. What is the special quality of everything which is not special? So in Tian Tong's verse, he says, I mean, in the commentary, he says, Zhaozhou picked up a blade of grass and used it as a 16 foot body of gold. The world-honored one pointed the way the wind was blowing. Indra brought forth what was at hand." And then Tiantong's verse emerges from the merging of subject and object. In other words, this verse is based on the merging of subject and object. Yes. It's speculation, but I wonder, the only story that comes up to mind

[44:43]

Yeah, could be. I don't know. I don't know what exactly he's referring to there. So how is this emerging from the merging of subject and object? Tian Tong's verse emerges from the merging of subject and object. How is the subject and object merged? In your own words. In my own words. How else would I do it? But how do you not see that?

[46:29]

How do you not see self and other? How do you accomplish not seeing self and other? It was built then. And that is the transformation that we have to make in our consciousness.

[48:04]

Right. Charles? Well, I think to answer the question you gave to Kathy, I mean, how do you not see self and others by hanging on to self, is the answer. He's going to show you something when he does it. Yeah, it's demonstrating. It's a demonstration. He's not explaining anything. Right. Also, this verse has a feeling of subject and object in that he says the 16 foot tall

[49:05]

golden body, a collection of virtuous qualities, that, and then right after that leads them into the red dust. Those are two, those are real contrasts. The 16-foot golden body and the red dust. Yes, the red dust is what? Just the world, all the things, things in the world. We don't usually see 16-foot golden bodies, but we see But dust is what gets in the eyes. Even gold dust gets in the eyes. Especially gold dust. Especially gold. But that's kind of nice, you know, this magnificent image of Buddha leading you by the hand right into the mud. And how are you able to be the master within the dusts in that situation?

[50:19]

Just hold on to Buddha's hand. Don't let go. Also, you do it by revering what's holy. You make a place a sanctuary. the image we talked about last time, the person in the boat completes the picture. And by the act of honoring and sanctifying, the place becomes holy. The person connects through that with the Buddha mind, and that the concept of the host, at least in some of the Chinese stuff, there's this guest host dichotomy by connecting that the host within you, that's sort of your way of connecting with the Buddha mind. And so that, you know, you were talking the other day about transitions, and this is one way one accomplishes transitions, is as you pass from, as you go through the dust, as you pass through different parts of your life, you connect with the host, and through that, with the Buddha mind, and that keeps you centered.

[51:40]

So it's the constant remembrance of what's holy through yourself and the whole world. Yeah, it's remaining within stillness through all the transmutations. Tian Tong's verse emerges from the merging of subject and object. Not just the ancient sages, but you too can be host within the dust. That's what you just said. But tell me, in the current trend, Liu Fu Ma had this temple built.

[52:43]

I think what he was talking about, he said the Tian Tong, Tian Tong, monastery in China. And that's the temple he's talking about. So Liu Fuma must have been the founder of the temple of Tiantong. That's what I think. But tell me, in the current trend, Liu Fuma had this temple built to requite a debt of gratitude. Is this the same as Indra thrusting a blade of grass in the ground? And then raising his whisk, he says, a community for a day, abiding forever. So that brings us back to the introduction, where he says, raising a speck of dust. So maybe a certain place doesn't abide forever, but something does.

[54:03]

Forever abides forever. He's asking you the question. It's interesting. I say, no, it's not. Why not? Well, because it's not a matter of... There's no... There's no... There's no ulterior motive to it. The motive is to express what he is. Not to satisfy some particular condition. What is gratitude? It's just gratitude. What do you mean? Well, I mean, what is the meaning of gratitude? Appreciating, valuing somebody's actions.

[55:17]

Well, yeah, that's one. What? What are you thinking about it? Connection. It's a connection. I don't think, I think maybe he's thinking it's like a payback when actually the question he's asking is that maybe he was so grateful for the realization of, for the feeling When you become enlightened, then you have overwhelming gratitude. Not for anything special. Gratitude becomes your expression.

[56:21]

But not for anything special. Sitting Zazen is an expression of gratitude, but not for anything special. It seems to me that gratitude is what was at hand at that moment. Yeah? Gratitude is what has arisen at that moment. I don't know if that is in the Chinese or not. No, it's not. It's not. I think this has to do with some old tale. This Fu Ma. Fu Ma means the son-in-law of the emperor.

[57:24]

That's the title. So that's a certain person. And also that's an adjective for this person who is So by doing this, like Emperor Wu, building, is there any virtue in this? Is there some virtue in doing something like this? Yeah, it would be nice to find out what the story is. Yeah. And it seems to me that in the context of it, he's just saying, And maybe he's trying to point that out to the person because he's saying in the current trend, in other words, relate to something that's happening right now.

[58:32]

And what's the difference? Well, that's it, yeah. So there's a question. Is this the same or not? Is this the same or not? The problem, what is in the current, in the current trend, it seems like, I don't understand. What's the current trend? Contemporary, I think. Yeah. Yeah. It's what's happening. You know, we could take a present day moment. Yeah. Okay. I see. Yeah. But you said his name. Well, actually also there's the actual echoing, because one of the things he supposedly did was build all those temples, right?

[60:00]

I can't remember how many, but that was part of why Buddy had all his furniture. So you have the sanctuary against the temple. Yes. One thing to make sure we remember, when they ask a question, is this the same or not? That's vanity and duality. I'm not this mushy. You'd be mushy. But if he was just talking about something, yes or no, whatever side you fall into, you have a problem. Otherwise, the question wouldn't come up. Why would he be asking it? Well, because he wants you to understand as close as you can the quality that would... for us to become Indra, to understand Indra, how that is, how that is to be Indra.

[61:18]

You mean the first thing that would come up is, the usual reason we do a lot of what we do is for a purpose, for a particular purpose. So it questions your, if you were being Indra, why would you do that? That question asks you that. But if you say no, then you include something, but you also exclude something else. If you say yes, you include something, but you also So whatever you say, you have a problem. Well, I think it's okay to exclude something occasionally. No, it's not. No? So you're excluding that approach. I assume that he's talking about the temple where they're sitting right now.

[63:10]

Yes, it looks like. It might, but it might not. And that wouldn't hinder, even if it didn't, that doesn't necessarily hinder the guests coming forth. It seems like it's just another way of sanctuary. There in the temple, this is sanctuary, the way of grace is sanctuary. That's why it's the same. That's why it's the same, yeah. First of all, it's neither a question nor a statement.

[64:13]

There's no question mark in the language. And he's just saying that, same, different, at the end of the sentence. He's just saying, same, different. Same, different, at the end of the sentence. It's neither a question nor a statement. It's just really that, whatever it is. Same, different. And also, the second point is that There's another way of interpreting this phrase, that Liu Fu Ma built this Bo Liang Yun, that could be the name of the temple itself, that is a building merit temple. That's a good research to do if they were indeed sitting in a temple calling that name.

[65:18]

Uh-huh. Tricky. But it's the same and it's different. So if you fall into one side or the other, you neglect the other. If you fall into one side, you neglect the other. phrase, same and different. And it appears a lot. Is it the same or different? So you have to be careful how you perceive it. Since it is a question, I just wondered Could we just say it's different because of the fact that one is a pure act and the other is done for a purpose, but within the sanctuary, in practice, it's the same?

[66:29]

motive and time and place and so forth. You can include all those things, but the act is the same. And Rebecca looks troubled. So if I take a blade of grass and stick it under have to worry about building a new foundation, because that would be impure. Where the blade of grass is what was done, the right spirit would be pure. No. I mean, just because something is physical in nature, we have a tendency to make it impure. You know, like here's an actual temple, so it becomes impure. No. So we have an actual foundation. It's not impure. Why is that impure? I'm not saying it is. I'm saying the opposite that it isn't. That, if anything, it isn't.

[67:55]

But that we have that tendency to make anything that has some kind of practical aspect not holy. The purity is found within the impure. Yeah. That's what you're saying. I wanted to say something about it being different. Okay. Yes. It says here that It's just a debt that's not in there. Is there any sense of it being to repay anybody?

[68:59]

Yes. That's the opposite of that would be to take revenge. What I say is different is that I think what Indra puts the blade of grass there, it's almost alike to Mahakasyapa smiling at the flowers. I think that maybe the point is to get, this is like what Quan Lam is saying about the structure of the sense, is to get you to see both aspects at the same time.

[71:05]

That it's not the same, but fundamentally it is the same. And to see them both. So it's like you're saying that when one gets out of the mind and just surrenders at the present moment with their heart, That's where it's at, and it's like it's real simple, and it's a sanctuary in every place. Right. Yeah. Yeah, so that... Right. I think that's the main point. No. So when he's saying this is a good spot for a sanctuary, and we have no idea why he's saying that, what he's really saying What's the guess from outside creation?

[72:07]

Guess from outside creation? Well, I think this refers to host and guest. Not only the ancient sages, but you too can be host within the dust. That means like the absolute within the relative. And also come as a guest from outside creation. So I think outside creation means host. There's another way of saying host. Standing outside of it. That's why the unborn... Host is always the host.

[73:11]

Why would you... And the guests are coming from... a guest coming from outside the creation. It's just, I think, another way of saying the guests are activity coming... your activity coming out from within the stillness. I think that's why they used Indra, you know, because not only is he the emperor of the gods, he's also the god of heaven. He's like the ruler of heaven. He comes from outside creations to do this thing. Yeah, I think it has to do... it seems to have that feeling. An outsider, in a sense. Does it seem to say something? Yeah, I was back on the same and different. I think that's the universal dilemma, because I think humans have great deal of trouble with the differences, and yet they cause us all the divisiveness and problems.

[74:20]

And I like that saying, different. I mean, they're always both going on at one same time. Transcending that duality is the way if we can find and practice it. I think it's a much bigger issue than the blade of grass. This is happening at a universal level and the temple is at the human level. And there's that interaction and there's both happening. And it's not diminishing one or the other, but seeing the whole and the part and part and whole. You mean the community for a day?

[75:44]

Yeah, abiding forever. I didn't talk about that a little bit. What do you think? No, no, not me. Well, like a community for a day is a speck of dust picking up something, you know, and yet it's abiding forever. It may not abide forever as that particular thing, but life is continuous, even though our community is only for a day. Yeah. Sort of sounds like Ecclesiastes. This is his wish.

[77:03]

It says, 10,000 years lived constantly in a day of Sangha, a day of being a monk for a day. Yeah, sangha can apply to either a person or a group, that's true. So each one of us is sangha, actually. So, 10,000 years. or 10,000 years is lived in one day of monkhood.

[78:25]

With the community for a day and abiding forever, is it also the same with what we said earlier about the same different? I mean, a community can no longer last for a day than anything can abide forever? Well, I see. Community, one day and forever, or one day in 10,000 years. Yeah, kind of like it's not a dichotomy. 10,000 years is one day. One day is 10,000 years. It's not necessarily a day either. It could be a moment. Yeah, a moment. In other words, I think there's the literal meaning, and then there's the other meaning. The other meaning is the one and the many, or the microcosm and the macrocosm, right? Or the dust and the...

[79:42]

That's kind of what it's trying to say, metaphorically. Not symbolically, but metaphorically. Raising the whisk is making a statement. It's like, you know, making an important statement. Sometimes all you have to do is raise the whisk. As I read this, being a person who reflects and stretches a lot, I heard it as the simultaneity of time. Is that completely correct? Well, yeah, that's also there. Yeah, the simultaneity of time is also there. All through this? Everything is right here now. We won't go through the further added things.

[80:58]

Next time, we have already relaxed. Numberless.

[81:41]

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