Tonight we are going to take up the case of Kapimala, or in Japanese Kapimara, Dyer Show. And I'll read the case. ancestor was the venerable Kapimala. One time the venerable Ashwagosha spoke of the ocean of Buddha nature saying, mountains, rivers and the great earth appear in dependence on Buddha nature. The three kinds of spiritual knowledge and the six paranormal powers

[01:03]

appear as a result of it, the Master hearing this is awakened. Ashwagosha is in our lineage Anabhothai or Anabhothai. case is fairly straightforward and it's about what is Buddha nature or how is Buddha nature expressed. It's about form and emptiness. How is emptiness expressed as form and form expressed as emptiness.

[02:11]

There's quite a bit actually in the case that can stand some explanation. The thirteenth ancestor was the Venerable Kapimala. One time the Venerable Ashpagosha, Ashpagosha was the ancestor before Kapimala, but we're not studying him because we don't have time, but I just wanted you to know that. Ashpagosha is the one who Kapimala inherited the Dharma from. So Ashpagosha spoke, one time the Venerable Ashpagosha spoke of the ocean of Buddha nature, saying, Mountains, rivers, and the great earth appear in dependence on Buddha nature. The ocean of Buddha nature is... like the great ocean from which everything is spawned.

[03:32]

So it's like the ocean of Buddha-nature, like the source. Dōgen has a fascicle in his Shōvōgenza called Bhūshō, which it translates as Buddha-nature. And his fascicle on Bhūshō is a kind of mini Tenko Roku, actually. He doesn't follow all the ancestors, but he brings up their cases of many of them. Kavimala is not included. He does talk about Nagarjuna and various of the well-known ancestors, and his cases are fairly similar to this. And I think that this is probably where Kazan got a lot of his ideas for this work was from Dogen's fascicle on Buddha Nature.

[04:37]

And Dogen talks about the ocean of Buddha Nature. And this, you know, it's the well-known analogy of the ocean and the waves. Buddha nature is the source of the waves. The ocean of Buddha nature is the source of the waves of phenomenal existence. And the waves are not different from the ocean. But yet, each wave is... independent, and yet not independent. As the Sandokai says, independent, yet each thing keeps its own place. Each thing is dependent, yet each thing keeps its own independent place.

[05:42]

So he says, only at one time the Venerable Ashpagosha spoke of the ocean of Buddha-nature, saying, Mountains, rivers, and the great earth appear in dependence on Buddha-nature. So mountains, rivers, and the great earth are like waves of the ocean of Buddha-nature. They rise and fall, then they are not separate from Buddha-nature, yet they're independent. So, then he says, the three kinds of spiritual knowledge and the six paranormal powers appear as a result of it the master hearing this was awakened in the Arhat system Inayana system of Buddhism, one of the, there's mentioned the six powers, six spiritual powers, which Arhats possess.

[07:03]

He says the three, the three kinds of spiritual knowledge and the six paranormal powers, the three kinds of spiritual, the six kinds of spiritual knowledge actually are three, of the six paranormal powers so really they're not different it's just that this is a way of expressing that so the six powers are clairvoyance clairaudience knowledge of the thoughts of others recollection of previous lives looking into the future future lives and recognition of the extinction of defilements or the ability to stop collecting karma, the ability to act in such a way that you're not creating karma.

[08:14]

And, um, uh, Suzuki Roshi, uh, talked about this, uh, you know, that, uh, there's an echo, um, a dedication that the Japanese do, uh, when they do morning service, which, um, during the second echo, uh, echo or dedication, the second part of the service in the morning, is dedicated to the arhats in their practice. We don't do that. But Suzuki Roshi and I translated that part, and I use it sometimes in Berkeley, and I think we'll use it sometimes here. But it's the dedication for the second sutra in the morning. a Japanese monastery, like a Heiji. And, uh, so they, um, uh, it's dedicated to the Arhats and to the six powers.

[09:29]

Uh, but, uh, um, Suzuki Roshi says that six powers, uh, are not necessarily the first five powers are not necessarily Buddhist the Siddhis Indians call them Siddhis or supernatural powers actually Buddhists are not so interested in supernatural powers although there have been times when Buddhists were interested in supernatural powers when Buddhism came to China as a matter of fact what sold the Chinese on Buddhism was the ability of the Buddhists to exercise supernatural powers. And, uh, in those days, um, supernatural powers, people who had supernatural powers were very impressive. And, uh, people, uh, um, bought that kind of, um, uh, stuff.

[10:36]

So, uh, he says, uh, the five powers, although the Arhats did cultivate the six powers even if only nominally the first five powers are not Buddhist powers the sixth power is the Buddhist power which is not a special power it's not a power to get something in other words supernatural powers are powers which enable you to have some advantage over others or claim some worldly advantage but the sixth power is our ordinary ability which we don't use it's our ordinary ability which we ignore which is the power to

[11:40]

not create karma, which means not create attachments, emotional and mental attachments to worldly desires. He makes it sound simple, but actually it's not so simple. It's maybe harder than cultivating supernatural powers, but he says this is the power that everyone has. This is the power that we all have, but we don't use it. And then he gives an example. And Dogen also gives this example in his fascicle called Jintsu.

[12:49]

Jintsu means supernatural powers. So Dogen wrote a fascicle on the supernatural powers, on the six powers called Jintsu. And where he gives this example of teacher and student exercising power. And, uh, the story is, uh, concerns Isan, Kyosan, and Kyogen. So Isan was the teacher, and Kyosan, uh, was his famous student. Uh, together, you know, their names Kyo, Ikkyo is one of the five schools of Zen. And Kyogen was another one of Isan's students. I've told you this story before.

[13:52]

So one day, Isan, it was kind of a warm day, and Isan was taking a nap, like teachers often do. And so a student, Kyosan, came by. The door was kind of partly open. Kyo San looked in, and he saw the teacher was kind of napping, and then he turned around to walk away, and his son said, oh, hey, don't walk away. I was just kind of dozing. And then he said to him, what do you think I would like? What do you think I'm thinking about? And Kyo-san turned around and walked to the kitchen and got some hot water and a towel, a washcloth and a towel, and he took them up and upstairs to where Isan was.

[15:14]

put the hot water in the towel, the washcloth in the hot water, and gave it to Isan to wash his face with. And then he gave him a towel to dry it off with. Then about that time, Kyogen walks by, and he sees them both in there. And the teacher says, Oh, Kyogen, come on in. He says, what do you think, he told him what Kyosai had done. And immediately Kyogen turned around, went back down to the kitchen, and got some hot water and made tea, and brought it up. And the three of them sat down and had tea. And that's the koan. That's the end of the story. So this is true supernatural power. So this is the kind of supernatural power we should be practicing.

[16:36]

We should be cultivating this kind of supernatural power. So, the three kinds of spiritual knowledge and the six paranormal powers appear as a result of this Buddha nature. Then, in the circumstances, the master, Kapimala, was from the kingdom of Kasi. In the beginning, when he was a follower of non-Buddhist teachings, he had 3,000 followers and he studied all the different theories. You know, a lot of these stories are like conversion stories of non-Buddhists who were very non-Buddhist teachers

[17:39]

were converted to Buddhism, and they all had three thousand followers and were very well known. This of course, you know, happened in the Buddha's time. Buddha, Shakyamuni Buddha had all these teachers come to him after he was enlightened, and then he had these dialogues with them, and they were converted with their disciples to Buddhism. this is the legend anyway, and Kapi Mala is no exception. Of course, this takes place in India, so, and there were a lot of teachers in India, and they had a lot of followers, and they would dialogue with each other. So, it's not unusual. Sometimes, when they, I think I explained this in the, with Ananda, that when the teachers would have debates, oftentimes the one who lost the debate would have to become the follower of the one who won the debate.

[18:56]

So anyway, he had 3,000 followers, and he studied all the different theories. The venerable Ashwagosha, who was Anabhote, was preaching the wonderful Dharma in Magadha. in India when all of a sudden an old man collapsed to the ground in front of Ashwagosha's seat the venerable Ashwagosha told the assembly this is no ordinary man there must be something different about him no sooner had he spoken when the old man disappeared and a man of golden color popped out of the earth then he changed into a female pointing to Ashwagosha with her right hand recited this verse I bow deeply to the venerable elder in accordance with the Tathagata's prediction you must expound the highest truth right here now in this place as soon as she was finished speaking she disappeared the venerable said a demon will appear and test his powers against mine after a while the wind rose the rain poured

[20:09]

and the heaven and earth were darkened. Ashwagosha said, This proves that a demon is coming. I will get rid of it. Then he pointed to the sky, and a huge golden dragon appeared, displaying great powers and making the mountains tremble. But the venerable Ashwagosha says solemnly in meditation, and the demon's acts consequently ceased. So this is a kind of description of, a little bit like Shakyamuni Buddha. when the night before his enlightenment, he sat in Zazen and all these demons came. And we have pictures, you know, that all the demons, ferocious demons, attacking him and trying to upset his Zazen. But he was pretty concentrated and none of them could upset his Zazen. Just like they did.

[21:09]

they don't upset yours and mine. So, seven days later, that's a week later, a small insect appeared, no larger than a speck, and it concealed itself beneath Ashpagosha's seat. The venerable grasped it in his hand and said to the assembly, this is the transformation of the demon. he just wants to eavesdrop on my teaching he released the insect but it was then unable to move the venerable spoke to it saying if you will just take refuge in the three treasures you will regain your powers the demon at once resumed his former shape bowed and repented and the venerable asked him what is your name how many followers do you have the demon replied I am Kapimala and I have 3,000 followers.

[22:09]

Ashwagosha asked, what can you do when you use all your powers? The demon replied, I consider changing the great ocean to be very easy. This sounds just like monkey. Did you ever read monkey? The venerable asked him, can you transform the ocean of Buddha nature? The demon asked, what do you mean by ocean of Buddha nature? I still do not completely understand. The Venerable then told him about the ocean of Buddha-nature, saying, and this comes back to the beginning of the case, right? Mountains, rivers, and the great earth all appear in dependence on it. The three kinds of spiritual knowledge and the six supernatural powers appear as a result of it. The Master hearing this aroused faith and was awakened. So that's the story. That's how Kapi Mola was converted and became an ancestor.

[23:14]

Do you have any comments? How does Buddha nature do from the Tao? From the Tao? Well, the Tao is the way. So sometimes There are a lot of synonyms for Buddha nature, actually. So sometimes Tao is used as a synonym. But Tao more means, you know, the way of all things. Of course, the Tao is an aspect of Buddha nature. So, when Buddhism comes into a country, And they are always, you know, in each country they are the local deities and the local language. And when Buddhism came to China, from India, the alphabets, of course, the languages were very different in the way of writing.

[24:33]

Sanskrit in Pali, well mainly Sanskrit, was alphabetical and which didn't jive with Chinese characters. So the Chinese had a little hard time understanding Buddhist concepts. So they ended up expressing Buddhism in terms of Taoism. because there was no Taoism, but there was Tao, Taoist philosophers. And so they expressed Buddhism in Taoist terms. And there was even a name for that kind of way of doing that. And then at some point they said, we can't keep doing this because people are mistaking Taoism for Taoism, Taoism for Buddhism, Buddhism for Taoism. And so they separated them and started making more of a Buddhist, people began to assimilate Buddhist terms and separated from Taoist thinking, even though there are many places where Buddhism and Taoism overlap.

[25:46]

They have a lot of some things in common. And there were some people who said Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism, same thing. You see some paintings sometimes, you know. Dogen, especially, was very critical of that, because Buddhism is Buddhism, Taoism is Taoism. And then sometimes people say, well, you know, there's some Taoist texts that sound just like Buddhism, and some Buddhist texts that sound just like Taoism. What's the difference? And Suzuki Roshi said, well, when a Taoist reads the text, it's a Taoist text. On a Buddhist, he protects the Buddhist language. What do you think the language of this country is? No, it's not Esperanto.

[26:49]

What is our language? The Buddhist language? No, what is the language that this country talks about, that the Chinese talks about Taoism, What kind of terms do we have? How much have we been working on independently of Buddhism? Well, sometimes psychological. Sometimes we interpret Buddhism as another kind of psychological language. Yeah? Well, you know, I think that the use of evil, use that word, that's a very Christian word, and I don't think that's really part of the concept, the concept of evil. Well, I think we ought to be very careful there. I know, we've talked about this before, but it seems to me that we do use Christian terms. Well, in Shoakumakusa, which is the fascicle of Dogen, which is, do no evil.

[27:56]

It's called, do no evil. How would you translate that word? Well, I don't know, but is that really how it would be translated? Yeah. Yeah. It's not that there is no good or evil, it's that good and evil are empty. Well it may have a different meaning in Christianity and Buddhism. Right, so we use the word Tao. The Chinese Buddhists kept the word Dao, and kept a lot of the Chinese terms. And the kind of wedding of Dao and Buddhism is what spawns in.

[28:58]

But you can't say exactly that Zen is a kind of combination of Buddhism and Taoism, even though both elements are there. Because we don't say that Zen is Taoism. We say Zen is Buddhism. Heavily influenced by the country of China, where Tao was the indigenous philosophy. One of the stories that reminded me of some of those I think we have to accept responsibility for the way we interpret it and think about it.

[30:06]

It reminded me of a story I wrote. It was a Native American story about a fox that was complaining about being hungry. And actually a fox was starving and we found a buffalo that was very happy to eat a rat. And he said, buffalo, I wish I would be here. And the buffalo said, there is something I can do for you, but you have to promise to stay in one place. And the fox comments, and then the buffalo ran at him, but the fox was scared. You know, there's a fox, and he ran away. And then the buffalo said, you know, you idiot, don't you want this? And the fox said, yes, I promised to stay in one place, and the fox did. Stayed in one place, he covered his eyes, and the buffalo

[31:12]

ran him to gore him. And as the horns touched the fox, instead of a buffalo and a fox putting them, two buffaloes ran out of the Grand Pequets. So then the buffalo, who was a fox, saw another fox and repeated the same number. Except Anyway, it's a very long story, but in the end, the buffalo that was a fox came to know good. He came to know what good was, or he came to know good? He ended up showing his two-colored big buffalo. I won't tell you in the end, but... It's this whole thing about transformation and, you know, what's a buffalo and what's a fox.

[32:21]

It's just some quality of that. I can't put my finger on it, but it reminds me. Well, you know, what do you mean? What's Buddhism? What's Taoism? Huh? Buddhism or Taoism? What is Buddhism? What is Taoism? No, this story. what's a demon and what's a future and you know yeah just what's a demon and what's a future well what was the what was the fear of the demon that was another future what's the situation of the transformation well important to a demon Why did Khabib Maro? Yeah. Because he was, uh, testing, he was, um, uh, he, um, Ashba Gosha said, a demon is going to come and he's going to test me out.

[33:28]

Right? So he, it's like, uh, you know, doing all these flashy tricks. This is what he knew. Khabib Maro, this is what Khabib Maro, he knew how to make all these flashy, do all these flashy tricks, like Monkey, you know. Monkey had all these supernatural powers, which he learned from a Daoist sage. And he could do all kinds of transformations. He could do everything. And he even got up to the, you know, to the celestial gods up in their, in the Yellow Emperor's, um, Jade Emperor's palace. And he even shook the Jade Emperor, you know. And, uh, finally he made up with Buddha. And Buddha, very simply put him in his place. So this is kind of like that, you know. I see this story very much like monkeys, you know, like this, this guy had all these supernatural powers and could do, could turn the ocean upside down.

[34:30]

But he couldn't turn the ocean of Buddha nature upside down. He said, Buddha nature? What's that? He hadn't heard of it. And then, Asura Gosha said, well, I'll tell you what Buddha Nature is about. And when he did, that's what he just said. All the supernatural powers come from Buddha Nature. So he should understand what Buddha Nature is. that had been able to make this transition that he did, that he hadn't gone to the limits of all of his other teachings? Yeah, he would have. But, um, all of his other teachings kind of prepared him for this, you know. So he understood, because of that, he understood something.

[35:31]

So, and, and, uh, so, uh, when you have someone who is so talented, and then you, um, they, they become, um, converted. Then they become very, um, um, talented at that, in their conversion. So, because he was so, um, such a talented person Ashwagosha I was very fond of him so here's the show from the time the old man fell to the ground up to the moment when he became a tiny insect the demon manifested spiritual powers countless times

[36:41]

He said that transforming the great ocean was very easy. Even though he could change the ocean into mountains, or change mountains into an ocean, thus manifesting spiritual powers without end, he still did not even know the name of ocean of nature, ocean of beauty nature. How much less could he transform it? Nevertheless, since he did not know what mountains, rivers, and the great earths were transformations of, Ashwagosha said that these are the transformations of the ocean of Buddha nature. Not only that, but the three kinds of spiritual knowledge and the six supernatural powers appear because of it. As for samadhi, there are innumerable samadhis, such as the shirangama samadhi, and there are six supernatural powers such as the celestial eye and the celestial ear. These are beginningless and endless and beyond number.

[37:46]

Samadhi, as we know, is direct consciousness of reality without the duality of subject and object. In other words, as they say, be one with something. Be one with your activities. Yes? Yeah, um, Afragosha, I mean, it is, I don't understand the, uh, the whole, the point. I mean, Afragosha barely mentioned, would nature be understood by barely more than mentioning it? Uh, I mean... He just mentioned it. What's that? He just mentioned it. Well, he keeps explaining it.

[39:01]

So just let it unfold. Okay? He keeps unfolding it. So he says, as for samadhi, there are innumerable samadhis, such as the shirungama samadhi, and there are the six supernatural powers, such as the celestial eye and the celestial ear, and these are beginningless and endless and beyond number. When mountains, rivers, and the great earth appear, samadhi becomes earth, water, fire, and wind. Those are the four elements, right? In other words, Buddha nature If you want to experience Buddha nature, you have to experience it as mountains, rivers, and the great earth. You can't experience Buddha nature as a theory, or by talking about it. You have to experience Buddha nature as washing the dishes, sweeping the floor, blowing your nose.

[40:06]

It also changes into skin, flesh, bones and marrow and it changes into head and forelimbs using transformations of Buddha nature. Not one event, not one thing comes from elsewhere. Therefore, throughout the 24 hours, no effort is vainly cast aside and no features that appear during immemorial births and deaths are manifested in vain. Seeing with our eyes and hearing with our ears is limitless, and perhaps not even the wisdom of the Buddha can fathom it. Are these not the transformations of the ocean of Buddha nature? Everything, even the smallest atoms, are all boundless things, not at all subject to number or limit. They are like this because they are the ocean of nature. Moreover, to see this present body, is to see the original mind.

[41:14]

To know the mind is to witness the body, because body and mind are not at all two things. Now here's mind with a capital M, which means big mind. But then he uses it as body and mind. So that's a little confusing, but, you know, a lot of the, when you start reading this material, you see body and mind coming into it a lot. Are you a monk of body or a monk of mind? That's one of the first things that comes up in one of the beginning chapters. And it keeps continuing throughout as a theme. Body-mind as not being a duality. Not only is body-mind in thinking mind, but body, mind, when you say body, in this sense it means body and thinking mind.

[42:21]

And then body, mind, with a capital M is body and Buddha nature. Because mind is another synonym for Buddha nature. Mind with a capital M is a synonym for Buddha nature. How can nature and characteristics be divided? So nature means Buddha nature. How can Buddha nature and characteristics be divided? How can this table be divided from its nature, from its true nature, or from Buddha nature? Even though the demon reveals supernatural powers, while a member of a non-Buddhist tradition And that was not apart from mind or the ocean of nature. He did not realize that it was something called ocean of nature. So even though he was doing this in a non-Buddhist tradition, it's still the ocean of Buddha nature.

[43:27]

Therefore he doubted both himself and others. So he doubted Ashwagosha. and he also got it himself. Moreover, since he did not understand these realities, he was not one who had reached the fundamental. When he matched powers with Ashwagosha, he was not equal to it. He just exhausted his demonic powers and found it difficult to make transformations. In the end, he turned away from himself and took refuge in another, putting an end to contention and displaying the correct faith. Even if you understand the true nature of mountains, rivers and the great earth, do not get uselessly entangled with sounds and forms. Even if you clarify your original nature, do not settle down in ordinary knowledge. Yet, even ordinary knowledge is nothing other than one or two Buddha faces or our ancestor faces as our hedges, walls, tiles and pebbles.

[44:35]

Our original nature is different from the ordinary knowledge or seeing and hearing and yet it is not dependent on movement or stillness it's beyond movement or stillness yet it appears as movement and stillness and coming and going are necessarily connected with it I'll read that again our original nature is different from the ordinary knowledge of seeing and hearing and it is not dependent on movement or stillness however once the ocean of nature is established movement and stillness and coming and going are necessarily connected with it and skin, flesh, bones and marrow are manifested when it is time that means we come into being, into existence at the right time speaking from the standpoint of the basis its appearance as seeing and hearing sights and sounds can be nothing else

[45:40]

When emptiness is struck, it makes an echo, and thus all sounds are manifested. When emptiness is transformed, all things are manifested, and therefore forms are distinguished. Do not think that emptiness is not forms, nor think that emptiness is not sounds. When you investigate carefully and reach this realm, you will not think that it is emptiness, or that it is being. You will not think that it is something which is concealed or revealed, or that it is oneself or another. What do you mean by self and other? It is like the absence of anything in emptiness, or like large and small waves appearing in the great ocean. This has never changed in the past or present. Can going and coming be anything other than what they truly are? Do you have any... It's pretty straightforward.

[46:48]

Yeah, like most people practice, like we practice, ordinary life. And through ordinary life, you can experience the supernatural itself. Not supernatural, but... Well, I mean, if you practice ordinary life, ordinary behavior and ordinary practice, over and over again, which is what we do, you have a potential for enlightenment, you have a potential for, you know, understanding six, well, supernatural powers, right? It seems like this guy did it exceptionally different, like he went the other way, he became a magic man, first he understood spiritual powers, and really it all took like two words, being a master, to turn, you know, sort of twist Right. He came from the other side. Yeah, he came from that door. Well, the thing is, you see, that the six powers are not necessarily Buddhist.

[47:54]

In the beginning of Buddhism, there were a lot of practices which the Buddhists, which were around, and the Buddhists kind of incorporated into Buddhism, which, in the course of time, became antiquated or abandoned or dropped. Especially cultivating powers became, that practice was abandoned. Just like the eight jhanas, the eight spiritual practices were at one time incorporated into Buddhism. And in some places still are, you know, but generally that kind of practice has been dropped. But from those practices, you know, a lot of our meditation practice evolved.

[49:01]

So Sazen is a partly, the eight jhanas is partly a foundation the way God then evolved in Buddhism so you know he's talking about the six powers but he's not talking about them as something desirable he's talking about the six powers as being like the apex of what could be developed by non-Buddhists And, uh, but as Suzuki Roshi says, and Dogen, I'm sure, says, uh, the sixth power is the Buddhist power. The power to just be yourself. Completely. Without creating karma. Which is not a magical power.

[50:02]

Or a power to get something. It's, uh... it's the power of how to be true to yourself and to directly experience Buddha nature without anything in between in my sort of naive, simplistic way, I think, for the nature is something essentially an internal concept that maybe in some sense sits behind the mind. Maybe that's mind with the end. But I can't kind of relate that notion for the nature to something in the room's in the table.

[51:07]

Yeah, the easy thing that people fall into is thinking that Buddha nature is something behind something, you know. So, when we talk about Buddha nature, it's indescribable. You can't say it behind or in front or inside or outside. In consciousness terms, you can say that it will have to place it somewhere outside of the experience of the mind it's not of the nature of the mind no, because Buddha nature although Buddha nature is the experience of the mind and it is consciousness and it is all the things, it's this table and it's also your thoughts but it's also not that so whatever we say it is

[52:10]

it's also not that there's no linkage you can't link something that exists inseparably from something in other words you want to link it means that they're two different things you can only link two different things you can only link something when there's separation there's no separation the form is the emptiness emptiness is the form it's not like there's something called emptiness it's something called form it's like the ocean and the waves this is a wave of the ocean of Buddha nature and right now we call it wood and a table these are just names right so this table is inextricably connected to the whole universe.

[53:16]

Because if you analyze it, you can see that the whole universe is in this table. What does that mean? And its nature is, well, what does it mean? It means that in order to produce this table, as Thich Nhat Hanh says, there's sunshine, there's rain, there's the earth, They're the conditions. There was a tree, there was a seed, there was a tree, there was a table. All the non-table elements are what make this table. And you have to be able to see the sunshine in the table and the rain in the table and the earth in the table. Otherwise you're not seeing. You're not seeing what the tree is. Glenn? I heard the expression, Buddha nature is, there is nothing else.

[54:25]

Yeah. So everything is Buddha nature. Also, emptiness is another term for Buddha nature. A lot of synonyms. A table is a synonym for Buddha nature. You know, my nose is a sin for Buddha nature. But, um, emptiness is the fact that nothing exists by itself. Everything depends on everything else. So that we say, no, um, own being, right, in the Heart Sutra. No own being. No... None of the skandhas or dharmas have their own being. In their own being, they're empty. Own being, nothing owns its being. There is no own being, even though things appear independent, appear to be independent. There's nothing that's independent. It's just one big being with many expressions.

[55:29]

It's sitting here. there's one big being called Buddha nature and it's expressed as all things but you cannot define it it's not separate from things it's not something behind things it is the dynamism of all things but it's not something behind that it is that at the same time, it's indefinable. But can I depend on it? Yes, there's nothing else you can depend on. What else can you depend on? What else can you depend on? There is nothing else. So I can depend on nothing? That's right. I can understand when you talk about everything being

[56:36]

depending on everything else. Everything can be made out of the same thing. But I get lost and start talking about it as emptiness also. About what? Emptiness. Oh. So, because the table, you know, even though it's a manifestation of, you know, of Buddha nature, it's, right now, it's a table. When you call it a table, where's the emptiness? You just think it's solid, that's all. But I can prove it's solid. You can? the match? Solid is empty. Another synonym for emptiness is solidness. Because you think of emptiness, the problem is you're thinking of emptiness in a dualistic way. You're thinking that the term empty is the opposite of full. Well, to me, empty would mean there's no privilege. Right, that's because you're thinking of it in dualistic terms.

[57:37]

But in non-dualistic terms, the fact of this table is its emptiness. One way I sort of understood it, maybe, is that by saying that's a table, you know, like, if you really look at it, yeah, it's really not a table. You can't make it a separate thing. So if you really look at it, then there's no such thing as a table. That's right. There's no such thing as a table. That's what empty is. Well, empty is also the fact that it's a table. Because we just call it a table for one thing. It's a... It's a chair. But we don't call it a chair because we decided to call this a chair. So it's all a matter of what we decide to do and agree on. Anyway, that's minor. The major thing is that, as I said, emptiness means interdependence.

[58:44]

So if you think of emptiness, you can just say, well, why not just say interdependence? But emptiness may not be the best term to use because it makes you think of, when you say emptiness, it makes you think of something full. So we're always thinking in terms of opposites, right? It's just like, does the dog have Buddha nature? No. Well, yes it does. Why do you say no? Because you have to use a word in its non-dualistic sense in order to express non-duality. So there's no other way when you're using words. So when we say emptiness, we don't mean emptiness in a dualistic sense. We mean emptiness as a term that means non-duality. Everything is empty of its own being. Empty of so-called inherent existence.

[59:53]

That everything exists dependent on its surroundings. So you take something away and this is affected by it. So you can take everything apart until there's nothing there. Then you put everything together again. So it's all things put together and things taken apart. And there's this old formula. It's only dharmas. When we speak of this person, they're just speaking of dharmas coming together and coming apart. elements coming together and coming apart. There's a scientific phenomenon in some quark space. The particles there have what they call non-locality. So the particle that exists in me and the particle that exists in the table and the particle that exists in the space between me and the table can't exist anywhere.

[61:03]

And that to me is a so-called scientific definition of emptiness. It's non-locality. The particles that make up things on a very basic level, or what we think is a very basic level, don't need to be in any particular place to exist. Like Sir James Jean said, something like, everything we see manifests as phenomena here in our world. is just ancient stardust. Iron. The element of iron was made in supernova. Explosions. It wouldn't exist. There would be no iron. It has no blood. So that's where my language I'm searching for is the way they're saying. Now that is our way of dealing with something that the Buddhists present to us. Well, it's scientific, psychological How's that?

[62:08]

Nikki? What made you choose this particular story? Oh because, the reason I chose this particular story was because it was before Nagarjuna. So what I wanted to do was kind of put some continuity. So Nagarjuna is maybe the main, you know, he's such a, um, uh, uh, main character in Buddhist lineage. I want to have somebody before and somebody after. So you can kind of see, you know, how the three, what they have in common, and what, you know, how the... It's one of the fantasy stories, right? I didn't choose it for its fantasy quality. Like the Indian stories are more kind of wild. Yeah, the Indian stories, but then we get to the Chinese stories, and they're much more a lot of the fantasies out. Although the Chinese are prone to fantasy and supernatural stuff, I'm surprised that it's not as much in the Chinese.

[63:20]

There's a level at which you're talking about this story. You could say the same thing about... About what? The underlying current is the same in all of them. That's, the fact is that the transmission, you know, is about the same thing. But the stories are all different. And it's very, yeah, that's exactly right. The stories, the, the main, the main kernel is, is the same in each story. You know, I know stories that some people just told here, you know, modern languages is fantastic as the vision. Yeah, yeah. And who, who, who believed that stuff? The transmission of the light, right, that's what's being passed. And it's being couched in different language and the circumstances of each one is different. But the source is the same.

[64:23]

One way I was thinking about that a few minutes ago was that each of these ancestors is really one of us. And each one, like Kapimala or Kapimara, is the kind of person who thinks that having supernatural powers is really great, you know, and gives them lots of power, and he's got these 3,000 followers, and then, but his enlightenment comes from being told, you know, it's all part of the nature. And then for someone else, it would be a different... Right, so we can identify with each one of these, you know, with somebody. Each one of us can identify with somebody, and the character spread changes throughout. You mentioned something very briefly that really interested me and I didn't quite get about what Suzuki Roshi said about the power to not create karma. That's an ordinary ability that we don't use.

[65:28]

I want to expand on that just a little bit. It seemed to me like no matter what you do, it kind of explodes a little bit. The notion that Ed was forming about what karma actually was. That whatever we do, we're producing karma. So how would we... Well, karma in the sense of creating suffering manifesting actions which create suffering and attachment that's the kind of karma he's talking about we're always creating some kind of karma karma means volitional action the definition of the term karma is volitional action and then there's the fruit and the result of those volitional actions which people mistakenly call karma that it means result of karma, a result of actions, a result and the fruit of our actions, right?

[66:40]

So when he says to stop creating karma, it means to stop actions, to not perform actions which are creating suffering and attachment and delusion, states of delusion. Does that mean in practical precepts? Bottom line? keeping the precepts is a good way to express that. If your actions were always in harmony with how things are going, it wouldn't create any weight. So, the power to act in harmony with what is seems to me the power to act without being harmed.

[67:53]

The power to act actually in accordance with the circumstances that you're in. The power to act appropriately with the circumstances that are presented, that you're in, without creating suffering for yourself and others or attachments. Excuse me, when you said manifesting action, that maybe there could be a negative, I guess you'd agree, presumably, a negative form of that, like, I don't remember the whole prayer, you know, that we've done, or that we shouldn't have done, or things that we've not done that we should have done, you know, if you neglected it.

[68:58]

Well, that's an action. I'm not going to appreciate it. Thank you, sir. Well, there's an old saying, right? There's an old saying, grant me the ability to... Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, what is that? And the ability to know the difference? The serenity, to change the things they can. I think that's very good, because they're very realistic. But we have to do something. You know, the old koan about Buddha, does a Zen master, is a Zen master exempt from karma, the results of karma, right?

[70:15]

That is, you know, and the Zen, that guy said no, and he was transformed into fox, right, to 500 lifetimes. He said yes. He said yes, he said yes, he's free. He's free of karma. So then when he asked Hyakujo, Hyakujo said, well, Zen masters cannot ignore karma. So the thing is that even though we do create various kinds of karma, our effort is to stay free of creating something that will hold us in bondage because we do create our own bondage and to not do things that create suffering for ourselves and others I've always been intrigued by it and I don't understand it it seems to me like

[71:27]

Well, yes or no may not be the right answer. Yeah. That's why it's a coin. What's the point? Yeah. Well, there is, but we didn't have time to deal with it going. It's enough to know that he said, no, a Zen master is not subject to the law. A Zen master is not subject to the law of cause and effect. And so he was immediately had him transmigrated through 500 lifetimes as a fox. Well, it was okay.

[72:29]

He didn't like it. He didn't like it. But some people say he did like it. It was okay with him, even though he didn't like it. We voted down at Saturday's wake-up ceremony. Greed, hate, and delusion, and nothing but delusion. Well that's right, everything is about nature. But then we get into what is preference and what is not. So I do have time to finish this. you understand the true nature of mountains, rivers and the great earth do not get uselessly entangled with sounds and forms.

[73:33]

Even if you clarify your original nature do not settle down in ordinary knowledge. Yet even ordinary knowledge is nothing other than one or two Buddha faces or ancestor faces as are hedges, walls, piles and pebbles. Our original nature is different from the ordinary knowledge of seeing and hearing and is not dependent on movement or stillness, not dependent on anything. However, once the ocean of nature is established, movement and stillness and coming or going are necessarily connected with it. The skin, flesh, bones and marrow are manifested when it is time. Speaking from the standpoint of the basis, its appearance as seeing and hearing, sights and sounds can be nothing else. When emptiness is struck, It makes an echo, and thus all sounds are manifested. When emptiness is transformed, all things are manifested. So all things are the transformations of emptiness.

[74:38]

And therefore, forms are distinguished. Do not think that emptiness is not forms, nor think that emptiness is not sounds. When you investigate carefully and reach this realm, you will not think that it is emptiness or that it is being. You don't fall into one side or the other, which we're always prone to doing. You will not think that it is something which is concealed or revealed or that it is one self or another. What do you mean by self and other? It is like the absence of anything in emptiness or like large and small waves appearing in a great ocean. This has never changed in the past or present. Can going and coming be anything other than what they truly are? Therefore, when Buddha nature is manifested, not a speck is added, and when it is concealed, not a hair is lost. So, when everything is created, it doesn't mean that Buddha nature is expanded. And when everything disappears, it doesn't mean that Buddha nature is contracted.

[75:44]

When the various things are put together, it becomes this body. When the myriad things are obliterated, we refer to it as one mind. Clarifying the way and arousing this mind should not be sought outside of it. But when the necessary, but when the scenery of one's own original realm is manifested, it is called human, demon, or animal. When, when, Zen master Shui Feng said, If you want to understand this matter, it is as if there were an ancient mirror inside me. When a mongrel appears before it, a mongrel is reflected. When a Chinese appears, a Chinese is reflected. All manifestations are wholly the fantasy-like samadhi, and having no beginning or end. Therefore, when the mountains, rivers, and the great earth appear, They all appear dependent on it.

[76:51]

When the three kinds of spiritual knowledge and six supernatural powers appear, they depend on it. You should not see even an inch of the great earth as something outside your own mind. Do not put even a drop of water outside of the ocean of Buddha nature. Your own mind here doesn't mean your thinking mind. It means Buddha nature. because your own mind is Buddha nature and your own body is Buddha nature. So, yes? When we were talking about emptiness, I was wondering if one way to think about it rather than being empty is being a container. Since everything is in it, it's empty because it's... Well, that's also a separation. That's also a separation. But in the sense of the container is, you think, in order to feel the emptiness of it, you just put a shape of it?

[78:01]

Well, in order to experience emptiness, you have shape. Any kind of container, right? So if we want to experience Buddha nature, we have to experience it as this shape. like water water flows or water doesn't have any shape but if you want to know what water is you put it in a bowl or you put it in a glass and then you say this is a glass of water and then you can drink it or you put it in a stream or whatever but And then if you want to taste Buddha nature, you just eat something. I think by container it says here, you know, do not see even an inch of the great earth as something outside your own mind.

[79:11]

Right. You know, and that's the feeling I have. Right. of emptiness is vast. If you think of it as vast then you can't deal with it, right? That's why we have Zazen so that we can narrow it down to this confined little place and then we can experience the manifestation of Buddha nature But if it's so wide, you can't, it's too amorphous. Yes. And do you experience the meditation of emptiness without form? Say that again, dude. Do you experience, are we experiencing in our meditation, emptiness without form? No, well, it's not without form, but it's...

[80:17]

we're paying very close attention to the form right but we're not confined to the form what we experience is not confined to any form but the confinement allows us to experience the non-confinement I'm just saying that Zazen is not a conditioned kind of activity. It's not conditioned by forms. In other words, In our daily life, we're continually dealing with the conditioned world, the world that has conditions and limitations.

[81:33]

Everything is limited in some way. In Zazen, you let go of the world of conditioned, the conditioned world. And when we... able to let go of the conditioned realm, then we naturally experience our unconditioned mind. Mind which is not bound by conditions. That's why we don't try to get anything As soon as you try to get something, then you're creating conditions. So you just have to let everything be as it is and go as it goes. And not wish for some special state of mind. Or try to create some special state of mind.

[82:37]

Or get hung up on some idea or thought or feeling. to just let everything be. Yeah, I thought earlier when it talks about that Kapimala was from a non-Muddhist tradition in the other book since he was Hindu and it kind of, you know, says that he was an accoledictor practitioner of this other tradition, he didn't have, he hadn't gone all the way. Right. Is it possible to read anything into that? Like, it's the same thing, Buddhism is the way to go, Buddhism isn't it? Well, of course. Well, but it's not necessarily proselytizing to say this, you know, Buddhism is the way to go.

[83:45]

It's like saying, this is what happened. could read it that way, I suppose. And perhaps it's propaganda. Uh, but, um, well, there weren't any Hindus in those days, actually. There were Brahmans. The Hindus is a later, um, term. A term that's, uh, much later, I think. Brahman was more of a term in those days. Um, the religious caste. And Buddha broke away from the religious caste of Brahmins. Although he was also called a Brahmin. And he also broke away from the Vedic religion. And so he was a kind of reformer. So the Indian

[84:46]

ancestors, you know, are converts from, because Buddha was actually a reformer in the, in his traditional times. And he criticized the Brahman concepts of Atman and Jiva and the soul theories and the God theories and so it was quite critical and so this is why when you read the Buddhist literature you see that many many of these old the teachers of his time came to visit.

[85:48]

And he had these debates with them about what was the true nature of religious practice. So naturally, you know, in these stories, the Brahmins are still being converted. They're understanding something they didn't understand. And so Brahmanism is kind of, I mean Buddhism was kind of the logical extension of the Brahman spirituality. And these Indian ancestors are not so far removed from Buddha's time. Nine o'clock.

[86:50]

So next time, for next time we will... We've got to read the humble saying. Oh, I'm sorry. So this verse, this morning I would like to say a few humble words about this situation. Would you like to hear them? After a while he said, even though the huge waves flood the heavens, how can the pure ocean water ever change? And then Cleary translates it a little bit different, but not much. Even if the enormous waves flood the skies, when has the water of the pure ocean ever changed? You get it? No. Think about it. Nagarjuna is next.

[87:43]

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