Thank you all for being here. Karen and I are going to lead this class on section, what we call section eight of the Genjo Koan. And I'm really glad you're here. So far we have one, two, three, four, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11 people in the zone. 16 online. 16 online that doesn't include the Zendo, right? Okay, that gives us a count. And perhaps more people will join us. So really glad to be here. I'll just start off with a brief introduction. Sojin said in one of his lectures that I listened to in the audio archive from 2012, and it was on the genjo koan, that he wanted us to get the genjo koan in to understand it deeply.

[03:43]

And I remember he read it a number of times in the section about to study the Buddha way, just to forget the Buddha way, that section just penetrated me early in my time here in the 1990s, early 1990s, I wrote that phrase down and I still have, I found it in my office and I put it back up on the wall. There's something about this koan, I think, my understanding is he wrote it for lay people. That's why it reaches me so much. I'd like to start with two translations. And I'll read them, but this is not a long column, so. I'll read one version and then Karen's gonna ring a second and I'll have a bell and then she will go into some commentary and ask for questions.

[04:49]

Is that about right? Okay. Can you all hear me okay online? Yeah, I see thumbs up, thank you. Enlightenment is like the moon reflected in the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dew drops on the grass. or even in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not divide you. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky.

[05:51]

The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short it is, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky. And here's another version, a little bit different from the one that was sent out. And Shohaku Okamura, it's in his book, Realizing Ginjo Kawan. When a person attains realization, it is like the moon's reflection.

[07:01]

The moon never becomes wet. The water is never disturbed. Although the moon is a vast and great light, it is reflected in a drop of water. The whole moon and even the whole sky are reflected in a drop of dew on a blade of grass. Realization does not destroy the person, as the moon does not make a hole in the water. The person does not obstruct realization. as a drop of dew does not obstruct the moon in the sky. The depth is the same as the height. To investigate the significance of the length and brevity of time, we should consider whether the water is great or small, and understand the size of the moon in the sky. going to read from three paragraphs, one by one, with commentary.

[08:34]

And then after each one, I'll ask a question or put out something that perhaps you can respond to. And of course, you don't have to respond to exactly what I You can respond to whatever moves you. The first one is from Uchiyama and here is one commentary. Commonly we think that we are deluded human beings who wish to make ourselves by using some technique to attain enlightenment. As I said regarding the eighth section, we assume there must be a transition from delusion to enlightenment. However, Dogen Zenji wrote that there is no such transition.

[09:39]

All of us, whether we are deluded human beings or not, are living the reality of life prior to any separation between delusion and enlightenment and life and death. According to Zen tradition, when Shakyamuni Buddha obtained enlightenment, he said, I, the great earth, and sentient beings simultaneously obtained the way. Mountains, rivers, grass, and trees have all become Buddha. comes up for you when you hear there really isn't a transition between and an argument.

[11:02]

Ellen. I'll just say that I am kind of fascinated with how many ways I think of enlightenment as other than enlightenment. Can you hear online what Ellen is saying? Okay, good. I mean, I know it isn't, but I still think it is. You know, I think that way and I notice myself thinking that way. Always in different ways. Yeah. There's someone online Here has his hand raised. I don't know. Just in response to Ellen, I think that's something that Suzuki Roshi loves to point out. Exactly that point. The way I do it, you know, I'm just fascinated by it. I've been thinking about it a lot. Thank you. Peter, is Peter the one? Kabir.

[12:13]

Oh, Kabir. Hi, good evening. I read the unborn. Everything is included. It's already there. It always has and always will be. We just have to show up. And we're already showing up even if you don't. You're here. That's it. Yeah. And what I appreciate what Sue read about, even in a one inch of a puddle, the moon, you can see the moon's reflection, that when Ryushin emailed that, that there's no discrimination in Dharma in a Buddha way or enlightenment. You can be a beginner and have that.

[13:17]

or it doesn't matter. In other words, the moon can reflect in a giant lake or a one-inch puddle. And a lot of times, you know, we look down on puddles like, oh, it's just a puddle. It's dirty. It's in the way. It's giving me a flat tire. I mean, you know, or whatever you call it. It has potential. It's part of it. There's no discrimination in the in the house of Buddha or in the Dharma or the Three Jewels. And I, from the first moment that I set foot in the busy sea, I felt welcome. And till this day. And I think the Sangha that we were part of demonstrates that every day, every time. So, and it feels, I feel very fortunate.

[14:19]

So thank you. Thank you. Jonathan. I'm trying to think of how I want to phrase this. I mean, it's that everyone fundamentally possesses this nature, and essentially nothing changes, and yet something changes. I mean, Laurie just got done teaching the polycanon class, and there are an awful lot of students dedicated to explaining how different Shakyamuni was. I mean, the 32 marks of the great being. I mean, how many names does he have?

[15:22]

I mean, no one's ever called me Bhagavad. And I think, if I can editorialize a minute, I think sometimes it's a little easy for me to say, well, it's already there. Nothing has to change. You're good the way you are, and yet something changes. The practice is set up to allow the change to occur. Like yes, nothing changes and something changes. And I think that's, it feels important to me to bring that side out too.

[16:28]

Well, it sounds like you're saying a perception changes. I don't know if it's necessarily just perception. I mean, something happened to Shakyamuni under the Bodhi tree that morning. And maybe it was just, he realized the true nature of things. He realized what he already had, but he had to sit there. You know, I mean, we have, you know, we chant Kezon's name in our list of ancestors. He wrote a whole book about enlightenment stories. Something happened. There's two sides to this. I'm repeating myself now, but it feels important to bring out both sides, at least to me.

[17:36]

Dan. So along those lines, let me ask you a question. Is enlightenment just a shift in perception? That is, we are existing into being with everything. And yet we feel, we perceive ourselves as separate being with our own aims. in conflict with others, and all that stuff. So is enlightenment just a shift in perception where you see the reality of entropy in there? That feels too simple to me. So that's why I'm asking that question. Is that what's involved? Because perception can shift suddenly. Perception can shift gradually. It's just, it's all in your head. Is there more to it than that?

[18:42]

Well, there's practice. So you can have a perception for a moment that perhaps lasts a moment. But we have to keep practicing. Held that question of if we are enlightened, why do we need to practice or why do we? The easy answer to that question is because we haven't perceived the truth here. Well, maybe some people have. I don't think we're all practicing here because we haven't perceived the truth. Maybe some have, some haven't. But that's not... about necessarily, but I'd like to hear from other people about this question, Laurie.

[19:47]

Well, one thing I've been thinking, you know, is that we keep thinking that Dogen is making some kind of statement about reality or objective reality, but, you know, oftentimes is medicine. It's something's being said. So I keep thinking, what is the problem with thinking that you're not Buddha, and I think you said it, it's a problem if you don't think you're Buddha. If you think there's this big distance, this gap that you have to close, never close it, you know? And so that's the problem that he's addressing. He's addressing the problem with the way we think, which is that I'm over here and Buddha's over there, you know? I mean, I was in this class where people were... saying, what are our mistaken beliefs? Humans' mistaken beliefs. And I said, popped out, and it just popped in my mind, I'm not Buddha. And everybody laughed like that was hilarious.

[20:48]

But I think that's what he's saying. You have to address your belief already. Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. Maybe you're awake, maybe you're not. But what's getting in my way is my feeling this distance. that I could never close the gap between me and Buddha. And I believe that that's the truth. I believe that it's true that I'm not, you know. I don't know how it is the belief that's getting in the way. Sue? Well, A couple of things came up in this conversation. I remember my husband, Gordon, when I was rattling on about such things, and he'd say, you know, and things like, am I good enough, or did I make a mistake, or what should I be doing, or I shouldn't be better than I am, basically those things.

[21:52]

And he said, pay attention to the stones. And I... you know, to keep reminding me about that. Oh, you know. And I think a lot of the books that I've managed to find, including Realizing Ginjo Koan and the Three Commentaries, Dogen's Ginjo Koan, I think in some ways I interpret it as don't worry about it. You know, once we... Somehow the questioning is actually the gap, exposes the gap, I think, like Ellen was talking about. Maybe we shouldn't worry about it. We should start acting like it. We should start acting like it.

[22:53]

I think we're doing the best we can, Lauren. And I just want to... In realizing Genjiokan, there's a really interesting discussion about the word realization or satori and the different meanings, and going back to Japanese and Chinese, and it's very nuanced. And it seems that you're saying that you didn't say one way is right. Like medicine, you turn to say, oh, this is helpful. Or I have a resting point with this understanding, and maybe that's what I look for. Yeah. Yomi, did you have your hand up? I mean, it's just a little story at the end where the student asks the teacher, why are you fanning yourself if the wind is everywhere? And it, yeah, just that came to my mind.

[23:56]

I really like that section. I mean, to me that's about, yes, we are Buddha, but we still have to make an effort. Well, I also want to make the point that just by dividing things up, you know, that's, you know, that's not And that's seen a separation. I mean, which isn't necessarily wrong. It is a point, but if you say delusion of enlightenment, that's true. I want to just read a paragraph from Suzuki Roshi. Although its light is wide and great, he's quoting from... Although its light is wide and great, you may say the moon's light is bright and great, while the moon in the dew is so small.

[25:12]

The moon in the sky is also in the drop of dew. Even though it is in the drop of dew, even though you may say your attainment is too small, enlightenment is enlightenment. There's no difference. Is the moon within the Deuteronomy, or is that just what we tell ourselves? Because it's just a reflection, or is a reflection, that we say is the moon in the Deuteronomy. But isn't it still dualistic? Clay has his hand up. Who? Clay. Clay. Hi.

[26:16]

When I was reading what you all sent out, I realized I had a couple of sort of stumbling blocks or tussles with it. And the first one was just the word enlightenment is kind of challenging for me, I think. And it seems like it's sort of a thing. something you sort of have or don't have and you attain it and then you got it. And to me, that isn't, um, my sort of understanding of reality is more about, um, an unfolding, uh, sort of dynamic creative thing on all the time. And, um, just doesn't seem to me sometimes an enlightenment proper, um, indicates that as much as a word like awakening, which seems to be more of a process-oriented thing. So as I was reading the Moon and the Dewdrop version that you sent out, I realized, oh, I'm getting stuck on enlightenment.

[27:27]

I think I need to set that aside a little bit and just sort of, you know, just try to get back to what my understanding is. Awakening works better for me, then I'll go with that. So I appreciate the other translation that Sue read. And then the other thing I realized after, you know, decades of practice was I've never really seen the moon reflected in a dew drop. Never. You know, and I've read the book plenty of times, but, you know, and today's a pretty good moon. So I was thinking I might go out and see if. see how that looks later on after class. Maybe we should do that on the break. Ron. Hi, Ron. Hi, Ron. Hi.

[28:33]

I just want to say a word for open mind. An open mind that can... comes rather than conjecture about realization and enlightenment and ignorance and blah, blah, blah. Why not just have an open mind and just, just absorb what's happening. That's all I want to say. Thanks. Don't worry about it. Yeah. I wonder if, I mean, if. enlightenment is this big general thing, or it can also be very specific or specific to certain instances. Like, uh, like when, when someone says something and I was, I've been reflecting on like a Dokusan that I had with Stojan before, before he died and how something he said in that Dokusan, like really just put me at ease. And I felt like, Enlightened.

[29:36]

I felt lightened up by it. I'm still like deluded in so many other ways. But in that moment, one thing that was troubling me, I was enlightened of. And it, I like, that makes me feel more comfortable with the word enlightenment because it doesn't have to be this big, huge thing. You know, it should be this little moment that sits with a bunch of other deluded things. Kind of like what Suzuki Roshi was saying. Small. Instead of enlightenment, enlighten up. Enlighten up. Yeah. Share any experience they have had. You don't have to call it enlightenment, you know, but perhaps an understanding When my mother died, I remember going outside on the deck, and it was a moon under the moonlight, and there were no words.

[30:50]

It was just the words stopped. There was this gigantic moon, and I'd never really spent time looking at it. When I'm outside looking in the night sky, there are mosquitoes, so I don't spend a lot of time doing that. But there weren't. And I didn't spend a lot of time outside. I don't at home at night, but I should. I mean, it's wonderful. And it was just pouring down. And there were no words. Khabir has his hand raised. Khabir? Yes. When Sue mentioned Gordon saying pay attention to the rocks, when we were in Tassajara recently, sort of everything came to life from a speck of dust to the whole thing.

[32:00]

But more importantly, all the rocks, I felt they're all just alive, even like just little tiny on the pathway. And I'm not even talking about the gigantic mountains around you and the rock. And they were just alive. I don't want to explain it, but you really felt that they had, they were alive and rocks are alive. I mean, I'm just blown away. So when Sue mentioned that, yes, Yeah, just pay attention to the rocks. They can teach. Yes. Yeah. I think that the lesson for me with the rock or Suzuki Roshi and Sojan Roshi is just being with. I have to touch them.

[33:04]

I have to touch Sojin's rock, and there's no words. Thank you, Kabir. I'm gonna read one more. This is from Uchiyama again. And this is a commentary, a paragraph in response to the depth is the . The important matter for us is how we wave the fan and actualize the wind of life, which is boundless and infinite. How can we actualize universal life right here and . That is what Reverend Imogawa expressed as here now.

[34:05]

Whatever the conditions, we are always living within the life of Buddha. But at the same time, it is really crucial to see that this reality is the life of Buddha. Our problem is how we see the reality of the life of Buddha right here and right now. This is what Dogen Zenchi meant when he said, The water has its own depth and the moon has its own height. I want to talk about the problem is right here, right now. It's not like you're doing something wrong. You know, why can't I feel all of these worries? But it's... Sometimes I get what I'm doing.

[35:10]

Oh, I'm worrying. And that can drop away. It's like, it's okay that I'm turning. You know, like, just the continual... digging your own hole deeper and deeper by worrying about not doing it right, not doing that right, not doing that right. At some point, following that down, maybe it's another way of taking the backward step. Like you can't go any farther. And then you just come to a still point and suddenly you see a different way of perceiving or a different understanding. And, um, that takes facing into the problem. And I've had that over and over again. So to say that enlightenment is just perceptual, maybe it is.

[36:14]

We are in the... It was on yesterday when I talked to him, talked about the many faceted, faceted aspects of this, you know, like Indra's net, so where we are is this narrow, jeweled perception point, but it's part of the whole, and we are humans, but we can perceive our particular intersection, Indra's net intersection, hold it lightly, Maybe it shifts, and we can see more intersections. Make sense? Well, I love zazen. And I find, for me, that I see myself grasping all the time at entertainment.

[37:22]

grasping at some old argument I might have had with someone that I'm still not finished with, grasping at wanting to be somewhere else. And so in Zazen, we continuously let go. And then the self, that kind of what Sojin called the small self, The one that's always complaining and begging and craving and all that. You know, that voice becomes softer and softer. So for me, a lot of awakening has to do with this ego self. the grip of that.

[38:25]

And then things like stones and leaves and animals and people just become brighter. Me all the time. So, I don't have a watch with me. What time is it? 5.30. Okay, great. I think that the second part of it... Do you have another reading? I can't remember how many we've done. I have a few things, but they don't have to... Not necessarily.

[39:29]

It's from the other book, Okamura's book, that I actually forgot to frame. You go ahead, Sue. Well, okay. I think we've really been addressing this already. But I'm going to read the first translation, just the first paragraph, and then ask a few questions that we've probably already talked about. Yes, Ellen? We're moving on now. Yeah. Anyone else has anything to say? Yeah. I wasn't either. I'm fumbling away here. I'm getting on to another section?

[40:32]

Yeah, I'm going to move to another section, and I think if somebody can remind us, in 10 minutes we'll have a little break. So this is Section 8, back to that, and just the first paragraph. Enlightenment is like the moon reflected in the water. The moon does not get wet. nor is the water broken although its light is wide and great the moon is reflected even an inch wide so we already shared about some of us about experiences in moonlight and i just wonder if other people have experiences with moonlight on the water even like paddling at night on a pond Have you, Taryn? Yeah, I went on this paddleboard camping trip this summer where we paddled to a little island in a lake. Hold on a second.

[41:32]

Can you hear, Taryn? I can talk loud. Do you want to come up or talk loud? People can hear. They can hear. They can hear. I'll give you a speaker. Not really loud. Great. You're a teacher. You can do that. Yes, I can. We paddled out and camped on an island in a lake, and then we went paddleboarding in the dark. Ooh. most fascinating thing because you get away from the island and you realize you can't see it anymore. Little fire, you know, little tiny lights that are there. But it was so cool because you get out in the middle of the water and everything disappears. And so you have like the moon reflect, I just like suddenly so vividly remembered it, the moon reflecting on it and then just black, like pitch black. It's very interesting. Thank you. Jake and Leslie. Hi. So I've always had an affinity for the moon.

[42:34]

I will say that. And also, I love to backpack. And one backpacking experience in the Trinity Alps, I was camped at Grizzly Lake, which is elevation 7,000 feet or so. And I knew there was a moon going to rise that evening. Yeah, and anyway, it did. And I thought, oh, I want to see the moon up in the lake. And so when I went up above the lip there and got so I could see the lake, a wind came up right at that moment. there were a thousand moons dancing on the lake it was the wind stirring the water and so there was just a multiplicity of moons and i just i there were no words i just sat there and so connecting that to

[43:45]

know awakening or enlightenment to me i kind of agree with what clay said about enlightenment but for me when i'm able not to separate jake from other be it in nature or a human being that's when That's marvelous. It doesn't happen all that much, but it does happen. And I think it probably happens for all of us one time or another. And when you lose that, you know, small mind always up front, it's gone. That's wow. Yeah. Thank you, Jake. And it's not a big thing or a little thing. It just is. That is beautiful.

[44:48]

Doesn't that experience affect your life, even though it's a small thing? Well, it does. If we let it. It's not getting in the way. of what's in front of us. So I'm thinking about what Jonathan said about the Pali Canon, or Pali Sutras, rather, and the class, and this changes you, right? So Buddha had that change. Is this, can we connect it? Do you think it's somewhat similar? or at least we can relate to it through that, I do.

[45:51]

Susan. Yeah. When I was just starting Zen practice, Sojin Roach had told me, you're probably not going to change as a result of this practice, but the choices you make about the way you want to live your life, Maybe that's a subtle difference, but I think I'm the very same person I've always been. I remember my dad telling me that right before he died, that he felt the same way he felt his whole life on the inside. In that paragraph you read, Karen, the last one, the word how was in there several times. How do we fan? How we fan ourselves. And Sonjan was always saying that's the Zen word, how we do something. And that's related to choice, right?

[46:58]

So there's way too much focus in ourselves on how the practice is going to change us. and that that's kind of the wrong direction, you know, that how we practice. We're really practicing, aren't we, to just express something. Nice. Yeah, that's kind of how I see it. Thank you, Susan. Okay, so thank you. Can we take a break? Let's take a five-minute stretch, and Ken Sung, can you tell me when? Yeah. I just want to keep opening this up with these questions.

[48:14]

The next little section, the whole moon and the entire sea in dew drops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. This isn't the next one. This is the same section you have, right? The same section, yeah. Okay, we misunderstood. I thought you were moving to a different section. Well, although it's section eight. one paragraph at a time or one sentence. But at the beginning of this class, you read both paragraphs, right? I read both translations fully. And right now I'm just reading a little section of the first translation, having some time for comment, and then questions. So I'm going to read the next one too, because I think we need to move along. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. We cannot hinder enlightenment just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky.

[49:15]

So I have two questions. Have you ever experienced the whole universe in a drop of water or in moonlight? How do you experience enlightenment? Does it divide you? And this is an odd question, but it came up for me. Life, enlightenment, as in the moon and the water. Taryn. This was a comment that I thought of earlier when you were talking about seeing the sky after you said it was the earth. And it made me think about trying to figure out how to string it together. see if it comes out making sense because it is connected, but it made me immediately think of a really similar experience. Um, and then, and then a different topic on that, which is, I talked about this in the last Bay Seeking Mind talk that I gave, but my dad died having this experience of being on the beach, um, and just a couple of days after being like so kind of immersed in you and seeing this pod of dolphins swim by and this, just this kind of indescribable feeling of like

[50:36]

feeling really aware of them and their experience when they're swimming and they're not experiencing this like messy mass of grief that I'm in the middle of. And I'm in the middle of it, but like feeling the separation from it, almost in the community of canis with it. And when I was thinking about next, when you different comment you made about it, it feels so much easier for me to accept that. then the day-to-day I'm worrying about the little argument with somebody, a little annoying thing. And I'm wondering if there's some connection here of like the really big, like grief that's so big that I know I don't have control over this. Yeah. I feel like in that I can see something, but in the day-to-day of like I'm dissatisfied with the traffic or the whatever thing that's so minimal, I do that separate somehow from the bigger one and I'm curious about that. I do think that's about grief.

[51:42]

The big losses or like the time I was caught in a riptide and I couldn't get back to shore and I had to give in. Yeah. There was an acceptance, maybe. And I remember an old lady. I'm an old lady, but she was an old lady then. And she said, Isn't it amazing how you come alive when somebody dies? Which is sort of shocking. I sort of get that. Yeah, thank you. Clay has his hand up. Thank you, please. Does anyone look for the moon in a drop of water? Did you? I did. Tell us. What happened? I wanted to give a field report and really see the moon in drops of water.

[52:43]

And it's kind of tricky. A couple of things like, you know, you're looking for it and you're looking for it. And as you do that, like I just tossed a few ounces of water on the grass. moves around really fast when you do that so it sort of has an indra's net sort of feeling to it it's like this all this reflecting going on but to see the individual moon i had to really slow down and just stop and then in these little drops for this little itty tiny tiny little little circle it was really great i i recommend Yeah, all the way from what, Colorado Springs, huh? Yeah, all the way from Colorado Springs. Yeah, thank you. You got the same moon out there, I think. I think. So we're, let's see.

[53:45]

Yes, Dan. I've had an experience that's been hard to relate, but it has to do with a drop of water, and at work, we look at drops of water under a microscope, and There is an entire world. And see it. Dogen knew that that was the case, but it's, it's really cool to be able to see it. And we have these tools that allow us to sort of expand and contract the perceptions of the drop of water or the entire universe, the seeds of the telescope sort of makes the last or tiny scales accessible to us. I love that. I just think it's really, It's really cool. I'm not quite sure what that is. Glad to hear it. It really is a universe. You can see it. I feel similarly whenever I press a key on my computer, the world of things that are happening under the surface that end up being just a letter on the screen always just blows my mind.

[54:57]

She's like, what? The complete solar system of design is crazy. Yeah, we perceive a little piece. Sometimes something allows us to have a larger view, and it's awesome. And then again, someone, and then maybe someone. The last question, does enlightenment divide us? I don't know if it's an enlightenment experience. I was sitting at Tassajara and I was sitting all night. So it was like three in the morning or something. I went right enough in the Zendo that I was able to see. And I was just so exhausted that all the voices shut down. And I was just sitting there listening to the crickets and being with the crickets. And that sense of everything being connected and everything being attached.

[55:58]

Because those crickets were here, but there were others all over the world. And there was other animals and all kinds of things that were all together, all part of one thing. Those moments of seeing how everything's connected feel like enlightenment to me. It's divisiveness. It's seeing how the things that I thought were divided aren't. is really where it always strikes me. Thank you. And Dan. Just a question. A question? A question? That we're talking about perception and seeing things in a new way. It seems like enlightened people are in the world in a different way.

[57:04]

It has to do with being only here in the present moment. I'm not quite sure what that has to do with the issues of perception. But that seems to be an attribute. A difference in people that you would think are enlightened. So I guess it's all our perceptions, but it seems to go beyond perception in the way that they are living in the world, being in the world. Yeah, we notice how people live in the world and move. Yeah, we do. I notice that when I have the preschool, you know, how we move in the space, the classroom, how we interact with people. the environment is a really big part of preschool, moving in harmony with the space and the things, learning to use items and discover and explore.

[58:17]

So, yeah. I can't, but is there anyone out there who would like? Yeah, Kavir has his hand up. Yes, please. I too had a similar experience in Green Gulch, but also in Tassahara. And for me, if you can give an enlightenment description, is realizing that all things matter and all things have a purpose. That's, if I could describe enlightenment, that everything has a purpose. Sometimes all things have a purpose, all things matter, all things. Yes. Make it different, have an impact. Yes. Even if it's a great impact of annoyance.

[59:18]

The mind weeds and everything else in between. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So speaking the obvious, you know, it's a lot of poetry about moonlight and water and realization. It's very poetic. It can be a very poetic expression. I think we've heard of it. I just really appreciate what people are sharing. There was a... I guess I'll just finish with... Can I read this? I can't even remember this. The depth at the last phrase of that translation is the depth of the drop is the height of the moon.

[60:24]

Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky. And I think that what I've heard is really expressing that so beautifully, like the microscope and the telescope and the letter and the computer and the vastness of that design. and putting some, in Colorado Springs, putting some water on the grass and looking for the, slowing down to look at the moonlight in it. That's, thank you. I really appreciate that. There's a commentary that I, I don't know that we have time for much of this, but stop me, you know, and what time is it? 825. Oh yeah. Okay. So hang in there folks. Um,

[61:25]

So I typed this up from Dogen's Genjo Koan, the three commentaries, and this is Bokusan Mishiyari in section two, if you ever get that book, which I finally got, and it's worth it. This shows the principle of non-hindrance between a person and the dharma. The Dharma enters the person, and the person enters the Dharma. In this way, the person and the Dharma do not have separate bodies. And I think we heard some of that tonight. And Suzuki Roshi said of the Genjo Cohen, there is no more problem of big or small talking about the height of the moon, the depth of the drop. There is no more problem of big or small.

[62:27]

Each moment of our life is an expression of conditionality of one unconditional being. It is not a matter of long or short. You may seek enlightenment, which you may think is some special experience, where you will not have problems, where you will get rid of your vicious habits. things will still happen to you even though you attain enlightenment. So the water is not broken, nor does the moon, even though you say your attainment is too small. Enlightenment is enlightenment, there is no difference. And Uchiyama Roshi said, however Dogen Zenji wrote, all of us, whether human beings are not, are living the reality of life prior to any separation between delusion and enlightenment and life and death.

[63:30]

It is not a matter of putting our self-power to work and seriously practicing in order to attain it. We are reflecting the formless moon. The formless moon dwells in us. And then later these days, since human beings have been to the moon, We think the moon is just a branch of the earth. But we must read this section with the feeling of the ancient people who called the moon Nonosama and worshipped it. The moon is a symbol of the absolute that is beyond human discriminating thoughts. It is a vast and great light. Uchiyama Roshi says, Dogen Zenji's writing is beautiful and sophisticated. Without explaining, he says the depth is the same as the height.

[64:37]

All of us are living out the reality of life. We don't need to worry about it. And then he says something which I thought could be a different conversation. It could go on for a very long time at another time, but we might touch on it. We should not mix up karmic self with the original self. What do you think of that? Dan?

[65:44]

Are they really different? Is a karmic self an expression of universal? Karmic self is an expression of universal self? No. So before you got a separation, maybe you mix them up. Maybe just the way your karmic self is expressing it is part of the whole. It is. then you don't have to worry about making a mistake. Sometimes. Someone has their hand up. Marley has their hand up. Thank you, Marley. Let's hear it. Thank you. I appreciate... I appreciate... I think the last patch was talking about difficulties as well as the moon, as well as the dew drop, and this part about mixing up karmic self and original self.

[66:56]

Maybe I'll bring up an experience I once had after a long time meditating one day, and I went out and I ate a meal. that I disliked that I had mushrooms. And at the time, I hated those things. They were slimy. They didn't taste good. But I just hated them for some little moment. And I was like, eh, gross. How interesting. Gross. How interesting. Yeah. I've never really disliked mushrooms again. Can't say what that means. you know that I appreciate the sense that maybe you don't have even if you if you're trying to not mix the two up that doesn't mean you throw the karmic self out either yes and maybe who we are just from a different tradition is not our preferences

[68:09]

just our preferences. Thank you. I love that. Anybody else? I like what Marlee said, telling that story because In the Genzo Koan, Dogen says that the moon and the dewdrop don't inhibit each other. They're just who they are. I think I'm repeating what's been said over and over, but... It's not an either-or situation.

[69:13]

Right. Yeah. Let's see how time... Okay. We can sit for five minutes. And if someone has something else to end with... Oh, you said you had more to present. Oh, more to present. I can't follow my own instructions long enough to remember them. Well, I had picked out a couple things that I happened to appreciate. I found all sorts of good things, but I can't share them all. This isn't quite as poetic, but it's part of Okamura Roshi's commentary.

[70:16]

He's actually going back to the beginning of the Genja Koa. Returning for a moment to the first three sentences of Genja Koa. Each sentence corresponds to one of these three truths. The first sentence corresponds to the truth of the expedient, meaning the kind of ordinary, conventional understanding. The second sentence to the truth of emptiness. And the third sentence to the truth of the middle, the practice of the being away as the reality of our lives. This practice is based on the teachings of the first two truths, and yet it goes beyond viewing reality from either of their perspectives. Practicing in this way transcends both abundance, being, and deficiency, emptiness.

[71:25]

Of course, we know that emptiness is not deficiency. He's just using these terms. Dogen is saying that the image of the moon in water is more than simply a symbol of the emptiness of all dharmas, or a metaphor for the Buddhist Dharma body. He is telling us that the moon in water refers to reality as the truth of the middle. Like the middle way? Yeah. Okamura Roshi wrote a long commentary about Nagarjuna here. Yeah. Which I don't know how many of you have read Nagarjuna, but he expounds over and over about what the middle way is.

[72:39]

And is it similar to what Dogen is saying here? Yes. Oh, absolutely. Dogen, I believe he said that Nagarjuna was the most important teacher since Shakyamuni. Well, he also said that the moon has been a symbol of emptiness. Going to Nagarjuna, yes. in many buddhist scriptures and apparently um the moon and the water as a similarly representing emptiness of all things that is that everything lacks independent existence and they're ungraspable and transitory And they don't arise, nor do they perish.

[73:50]

So we can't hurt the moon for the time where I think I'm turning the world. You know, what I think or I'm worried about is really important. I can't hurt the moon. Can the moon hurt you? And the moon... can't hurt me. Of course, now that we're on the moon and there are other things going on, but yeah. I remember once, you know, I had an experience and decided that I had become enlightened by an experience. And then my old, my karmic self came back and was praising myself. And then I thought I had ruined my enlightenment. Yes. So that may be familiar to some of you. You can't cling even to those experiences. You can't ruin it.

[74:59]

What's that phrase? After enlightenment comes the laundry? Through the dishes. Yeah. Or the mushrooms in Marley's case. Thank you. Yes. I don't know if it was Sojin or Suzuki Roshi that said, we start from enlightenment and we walk and we go towards practice. I like that. That means something to me. Thank you. Oh, you're welcome. Yes. How I interpret that was that let's just get this whole enlightenment business out of the way. Yeah. Okay, fine. You're enlightened. Now go sit. Now go practice. Come down the mountain.

[76:05]

And... And I'm so glad you have the moments that you appreciate too. Yes, yes. That's not to be poo-pooed. No, not in that way. But I think it kind of addresses not getting caught in a way. And also there's work to do. I remember, I mean, I was like, oh my God, once, and coming from Tibetan, tradition that I practiced on and then I came here and enlightenment is very big deal. They would actually say, if you do all this in five years, you will be enlightened. And it was like the shiny object was just right. Okay. I got to do this to get that, you know? And Zen is like, okay. All right. You know, everybody's enlightened now, you know, roll up your sleeves. Yeah. Yeah. you feel about that I was I felt lighter I I didn't have to cry so hard or worry about it just just be here just show up yeah thank you very much you're welcome thank you everyone so we have a couple minutes we'll sit for a minute and then we're going to end and thank you for being here we hope to see you next week

[77:39]

11 people in the room and 16 online. Shall we chant the record just in?

[79:44]

Sure, that's a good idea. Okay. Beans are... everyone. Thank you. Thank you. And we'll have class next week. Thank you. Thank you so much. Good night.

[80:44]

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