Good morning. Well, today, I'm going to do my second talk on, um, when moms, um, medicine and disease to do each other.

[11:45]

Um, why don't you move that a little further from your mouth? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It doesn't echo in my ear so much. Um, it was nice to see everyone. Just take a look and see who's all here online. It's a holiday and we got 53 people. That's great. Dharma is more important than going to the beach or wherever. Okay, first I'd like to say that Uh, I'm so grateful, you know, coming here this morning, it's just like everybody was just bouncing with energy, uh, setting up for the dinner tonight. And, um, um, you know, it takes so much effort to do this, um, as a, uh, you know, all volunteer organization or, uh, Zendo.

[12:56]

Um, and I especially like to thank, uh, Hosan and, um, and Susan Marvin for coordinating a lot of this and the work leaders and my wife for helping me with this talk. I struggled with it as usual, more so than the first one too. So I wanted to title it, you know, and trying to get a single focus i'm going to title it um the second circle what is the self so the third circle will be um medicine and disease no i'm sorry um the whole earth is medicine um so the main i'll read the man the main case uh first uh unman teaching his community said medicine and disease subdue each other

[14:03]

The whole earth is medicine. What is your self? In the middle of the circle is the self, a capital S or big self, not the small self caught in the middle of this and that and confusion, but one who is open to the changing flow of life. not a me, me, me view, more of an inclusive us, wide in scope and not clinging. My Dharma name is Enzan Chotoku, or Round Mountain, Clear, Genuine. The mountain has an unclear endpoints at the base, but it reaches up and tries to see clearly Munman's words. Like the latter part of my name, clear, genuine, so there is a kind of circular process embedded in the two names, each interacting and enriching the other.

[15:23]

Throughout this talk, I'll bring some commentary and some outside readings to try and support and illuminate what is yourself. It can be confusing when reading commentary as to who is speaking. There are sometimes questions and responses within them. So I'll try to clearly identify the speaker, including when I am commenting. So what is yourself? Unman may be looking for us to stay open as Ngo, who compiled the Blue Cliff Record, aptly describes a bodhisattva, albeit an idealized version. Ngo's pointer, so I'm reading from the koan itself. A clear-eyed fellow has no nest, sometimes on the summit of a solitary peak wheat scroll in profusion.

[16:32]

Sometimes he's naked and free in the bustling marketplace. Suddenly he appears as an angry Titan with three heads and six arms. Suddenly as a sun-faced, moon-faced Buddha, he releases the light of all embracing mercy. In a single atom, he manifests all physical forms to save people, According to their type, he mixes with mud and water. If suddenly he releases an opening upward, not even the Buddha eye could see him. Even if a thousand sages appeared, they too would have to fall back 3,000 miles. Is anyone with the same attainment and same realization? To test I cite this to see. It's a mouthful. My comments on it are what I feel it means is no nest or maybe no real home.

[17:44]

Or what he means is no nest or by no nest is no real home or at home wherever he finds himself. my glasses on. He could show up in the marketplace, but he is hard to distinguish being ordinary, not pushing his understanding. When he says, an angry Titan with three heads and six arms, or sun-faced, moon-faced Buddha, this is Nada, the guardian deity of Buddhist lore. In prepping for my talk, my wife, Emily, she didn't understand the need for a fantastical monster. I told her I keep mine in the closet. ENGO is just showing that skillful means can include a full range of manifestations from demons to heavenly beings.

[18:51]

When he says he mixes with mud and water, points to the classic adage, the lotus flower blooming in the muck of mud and water. Also, the water is a metaphor of flowing nicely around and through obstacles or hindrances. All this describes character traits that blend nicely with the environment and people he finds to help. I'll switch to... Another comment by Ngo. Right now, the whole earth is a profuse array of myriad forms, up to and including one's own self. At once, it's medicine. At such time, what will you call yourself? If you only call it medicine, even by the time Maitreya Buddha is born down here,

[19:56]

you still won't have seen Unman even in dreams. Ultimately, how is it? Perceive the meaning in the hook. Don't stick to the zero point of the scale. So my comment here is he's pointing out not to cling to one side when he says, don't stick to the zero point like emptiness. to having only one view of things or attached to just this and not that or attaching to the absolute versus the relative. The main point is to be flexible and don't stay up in your ego's nest where there are no sentient beings. Come down to earth. Mr. Shusou, know that in two weeks you'll be back facing the wall and not sitting facing outward. But for now, he faces outward. I found this other reading just by accident.

[21:06]

I wasn't really looking for it, but it's from Darlene Cohen, Finding Joyful Life in the Heart of Pain. Darlene's no longer with us, but she was pretty instrumental in helping people find kind of a practice through their pain, their suffering of pain. I don't know if that's a good description, but it's kind of what I felt from reading this. A woman who was in a wheelchair with a diagnosis of severe arthritis of the hips and spine came to me to learn how to spend time out of the wheelchair. to walk around her house. I taught her many stretching and strengthening exercises so that her weak body could begin to support itself. For a long time, she did exercises like medicine, like taking medicine.

[22:07]

She didn't actually live through them. I could tell by her uninspired questions how many of each exercise she could do and what others should she do them in. Then one session she greeted me with a big grin. She said with real delight in her voice, I found out everything that happens to me is information about my body. Hurting or getting tired or not feeling like exercising, I'm noticing everything. I knew she had gone from mechanical movement into the timeless realm of sensation itself. The whole universe was her medicine. We've heard that. So it's true that you can use meditation practice to achieve your health goals.

[23:10]

You may even get rid of your disease or injury. But if we practice paying attention to our bodies mainly to get rid of our suffering, or to restore our ailing body to function, rather than to express our life and our nature, it is very narrow and a vulnerable achievement. Just as a clay Buddha cannot go through water, a wooden Buddha cannot go through a fire. A goal-oriented practice cannot permeate deeply enough. We must penetrate our anguish and pain so thoroughly that illness and health lose their distinction, allowing us to live our lives. Our relief from pain and our healing have to be given up again and again to set us free of the desire to be well. Otherwise, getting well is just another hindrance to us, another robber of time we have to live, another idea enslaving us like any other achievement.

[24:13]

Fortunately, For our ultimate freedom, reoccurring illness is like a villain stomping on our fingertips as we cling desperately to our healthy functioning bodies. Healing ourself is like living our lives. It is not a preparation for anything else, nor a journey to another situation called wellness. It is its own self. It has its own value. It is each thing as it is. We live our lives to express our own sincerity, our own nature. That was a lot. I'm sorry, that's a little bit much. My comments here is I ask, where do we start and where do we end? Yet you brush your teeth and make your bed. The absolute and the relative.

[25:15]

Darlene is pointing out the mechanical versus moment by moment of life and experiences. No gaining idea in practice and in life, seeing it at all as a big self. So what is yourself? Circling back, I can think of being more genuine and honest with my moment by moment experiences and not just checking off things as done. I feel The expectations I have of healing from disease is what causes me the most suffering within me, sometimes called the second arrow. I cling to views of myself and get lost in the sadness of what I view as no change. But there is change, but not what I want and not at the pace I expect. Seeing the big self as greater than what I expect is an ongoing process of self-opening and self-discovery.

[26:23]

This is, again, Ngo's comment, which he, you know, he's commenting on Secho also. I don't make a carriage behind closed doors. The road through is naturally quiet and empty. Secho speaks to opening up the road for you. If you build your carriage behind closed doors and you bring it out of the gate and it fits the ruts, what has this accomplished? I'm not building the carriage behind closed doors. When I go out the door, naturally it's quiet and empty. Here's Secho. reveals a slight crack to let us see people, to let people see. My comment here is, I see the cart behind closed doors is pointing out that in the boundless emptiness, we don't need measurements, i.e.

[27:40]

the cart of a specific width to fit in the grooves of the road. We don't even need a cart to travel that road. There are no measurements and few, if any, rules. Secho is giving us a view of emptiness. So I think, what is your self, Round Mountain? Self-absorbed versus an opening self? Take a little pause here for a drink. I want my old self, when that is past, accepting right here, right now, a new normal. Can you teach yourself this? I am a moving target that wants to be still. Stop time, go back. I feel stuck in the process of recovery from disease. looking for improvement and dealing with the fatigue of disease and age.

[28:45]

Yet knowing the coo, coo of the morning dove is there patiently waiting for me. How do you give in to the present and let the past go? I have two nieces who are very young and close in age. They love when you engage with them. I started playing the game red light, green light with them. You may know this one, but basically I say green light and they start to run. Then I say red light and they stop in their tracks. Over and over again, red light, green light. They love this game and laugh heartily when I stop them with a red light. Something so simple, and yet they completely let go of themselves in it. Maybe there's something there. I have another reading.

[29:52]

I thought, you know, I've read this poem once before in the skid night, but I think it really points to me in a lot of ways. It's by Richard Hugo, and it's called Second Chances. I can't let go of it, the picture I keep of myself in ruin, living alone in some wretched town where friendship is based on just being around. And I drink there a lot, stare at the walls until the buzzing of flies become the silence I drowned in. Outside, children badmouth my life with song. Their parents told them to sing. One showers my roof with stones, knowing I'm afraid to step out and tell him to stop. Another yells, you can't get a woman, old man. You don't get a thing. My wife, a beautiful woman, is fixing lunch.

[30:55]

She doesn't know I dream these things. She thinks I'm fine. People respect me. Oh, she knows all right. I've seen grim times. But these days, my poems appear everywhere. Fan mail comes. I fly east on a profitable reading tour. Once in a while, a young girl offers herself. My wife knows that too. And she knows my happiness with her is more than I ever expected. Three years ago, I wouldn't have given a dime for my chances at life. What she doesn't know is now and then a vagabond comes knocking on the door. I go answer and he says, come back baby, you'll find a million poems in your destitute soul. And I say, go away, don't ever come back. But I watch him walk always downhill towards the schoolyard where the children are playing ghost, a game where according to the rules,

[32:02]

you take another child's name in your mind and pretend you're you while others guess your new name. So what struck me was playing Ghost, the game where according to the rules, you take another child's name in your mind, but pretend you're you while others guess your new name. Don't we all do this? taking an identity like Chusot, while underneath, I'm just all warts and all, and kind of roll or clinging, wanting the past to become the future, out of steps of sorts. This is from the translator's commentary. When Tai Mei was about to die, he said, coming is nothing, there is nothing to look at.

[33:12]

Going, there is nothing to pursue. Happening to hear the cry of a squirrel, he said, it's just this thing, not anything else. Keep it well, I'm going to go. Later, Secho said of this, this fellow is a, is sloppy in life and fat-headed in death. That's actually complimenting him, by the way. I find this out. Just this thing, nothing else. What thing is this? Is there anything to impart or not? Some people do not know how to cut off Tai Mei's footsteps and merely say that he was too much of a hurry to be on his way. Still hurrying on, Secho then said, wrong, wrong, both Unman's former statement and his latter statements are wrong. Who would know that Secho opening up the road is also wrong?

[34:17]

Since your nostrils are high as the sky, why do they get pierced anyway? Do you want to understand? Then immerse yourself in this for 30 years. If you have a staff, I'll give you a staff. If you have no staff, you won't avoid having your nostrils pierced by others. So my comment for this is, it's kind of a complicated and esoteric commentary. Just the cry of the squirrel, just this moment. Be careful in pointing your nostrils upward to getting too puffed up. You may be being led like an ox. If you have a staff, I can support you in your teaching. In other words, if you truly understand, I'll support you.

[35:21]

I'm still on the fence about that interpretation and welcome others' comments. So where are we? Nurturing our genuine self in an aimless, wishless manner, trying to open up again and again to the carriage-less road of emptiness or boundlessness, but not getting stuck there. I kind of bolted this last thing on, thinking it might be good to close with Suzuki Roshi. in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, on control, he says, when we become truly ourself, we just become a swinging door and we are purely independent of and at the same time dependent upon everything. Without air, we cannot breathe. Each one of us is in the midst of a myriad worlds, myriad worlds.

[36:25]

We are the center of the world always, moment after moment. So we are completely dependent and independent. If you have this kind of experience, this kind of existence, you have absolute independence. You will not be bothered by anything. So when you practice Zazen, your mind should be concentrated on your breathing. Just this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of universal being. Without this experience, this practice, it is impossible to attain absolute freedom. That's all I have. Kind of dense, but we have a lot of time for questions. So if you have a question, just raise your digital hand or raise your hand.

[37:33]

Okay, yes. Hi. Thank you, Gary. Sure. Hi, Dane. This is a two-part question or answer. The first part is if you could simplify what you talked about today down into one sentence of what your talk today brings to you or means to you that would be the first part and then the second part would be how does that meaning that sort of one sentence simple meaning how does that support you in this very moment okay Yeah, that's a good and hard question. Well, simplifying it would be, you know, I feel like the koan is asking us in disease or illness to not focus

[38:56]

completely on illness and to let go and to see it as just part of life, moving through life. And so in simplification, it's just not claiming to anything. But, you know, as Darlene was saying about her, her teaching to this woman in a wheelchair to still be with each moment as you go through it. So that would be in response to simplification. And then the second part was, I forgot it already, sorry. What was the second question? Simplify the teaching and then... How does it help you in this, how does that understanding Oh, I see.

[39:57]

How does it help you in this very moment right now? How does it support you in this very moment right now? Well, it got me into Zendo. You know, I didn't want to come in. I didn't want to do this talk. I was more nervous about this, I think, than the second, the first one, because, you know, I was dealing, the first one I had, spoke more through myself, and this one I spoke a lot through the koan itself, and then tried to annotate or comment on it. So, yeah, it helps me, you know, through my day, moment by moment. Is that good? I'm sorry, I forgot to ask. Thank you. You made a distinction between yourself as you sew and yourself as a person who has ordinary difficulties, something like that.

[41:14]

Is that correct? Correct. Right. So what I'm asking is, Where is this yourself and is there a difference? Well, this yourself is right here and the difference is in my mind. Yeah, that's good. It doesn't really exist. I don't see a difference. And one thing I would say is, you know, it's like, when you take a physician, you can't just set this up.

[42:15]

You know, it has to be, I think part of the process of the practice period is actually the integration of that, of a new manifestation. That's what, that's what I see you doing. So be careful about discriminating between issues. So yeah. Thank you. Yeah. You mentioned your nieces playing Red Light, Green Light, your nieces. You mentioned children playing the game of ghosts. And then I think you mentioned how being Trousseau was also like a game of ghosts. Maybe I just made that connection. I was wondering if you felt there was a sense of play to your role as Trousseau. And then if you ever...

[43:21]

give a sense that there's a sense of play to practice in general? That's a good question. They're all good questions, but I think there is. Yeah, I think There's a real seriousness within me about being Shuso, wanting to live up to expectations that either I've better in my mind in a way. Sojin was really good at making levity of things that people took, or I took as very serious. he would always point it out and we would laugh about it.

[44:23]

And that was a great thing. Yeah, I think it's important to also see it as play. And I remember when I first came to the Zendo, you know, I played basketball. I talked about that in my Way Seeking Mind talk and that, and I just, You know, in basketball, you go out on the floor and it's the floor, like this big floor, wide open space with the kind of boards that are in here and our floor. And it just excited me. I felt at home with the spaciousness and the floor. So yeah, in some ways it is kind of like I feel, and you know, all the forms, you can get stuck on wanting to do them perfect, but they're all just kind of like, kind of magical, kind of like you want to just do them right and you feel good with doing a good show.

[45:48]

So, yeah, I find that as kind of a play. I don't know if that really answers. I am not feeling like I can answer that so well. That question. I'll think about it more. We're going to meet this week. Next week. Gary, Artem. See if there's any online questions. Yeah. Ed Herzog has a question. Hey, Gary. Yeah. Hi. Oh, yeah, I got two hands. Now wait. Hi. Why don't you go ahead? Okay. First I want to... I can't hear you. Are you muted? No. I'm not muted. Can you hear me now? I can't hear you. Okay, I'm not muted. There we go.

[46:52]

Try now, Ed. Are you okay now? Yeah. Okay, great. Well, I just, first of all, I want to thank you. I want to thank you for your openness and accessibility. And I really appreciate that. And my question is, is that Often it helps me to see Zazen as my medicine. It helps me to get up in the morning and to sit, you know, if I look at that. And although it's, you know, I know it's goal oriented and all that, but it's still, it's still, it helps me. And I'm just wondering, you said, looking at the whole world as medicine. And I was wondering if you would say something about that. Sure.

[47:54]

I have nothing to back it yet, but I kind of feel that Unman is pointing at a non-dual way of looking at life, calling it medicine. You know, because Sojin always said that, you know, there's birth and death within a bigger thing we call life. And... you know, like in my case, the, you know, seeing things through my mind more than in real life is kind of like not, is kind of the medicine I'm getting, or not medicine, but it's the disease that I need to somehow

[49:14]

rise beyond, or I don't know if you rise beyond, but see into it. So there's kind of a, so even in disease, there's this medicine sitting out there. I don't know if that helps. It does, kind of. kind of seeing life as medicine. Right. Right. Yeah, so maybe you've kind of answered it for me. Thank you. Thank you. Susan? You know, the thing about a round mountain, like when you're out walking, as opposed to like a mountain that has a peak, is it's really easy to go for the peak and not really see what's around when you're walking up that mountain because you're so excited about getting to the top where there's going to be this great view.

[50:26]

But actually, when you're walking on a round mountain, because you think it's boring or it's just what it is, you have the time to kind of notice more. along the way, or that's kind of my experience on those kind of mountains. There's nothing like you're walking towards, right? And so I was wondering, so that's your name, Round Mountain, how your relationship to your name is evolving or changing right now as you study this koan? Well, you know, the first talk i right before the talk i came up the idea of a circle came to mind so um you know round mountain is circuit kind of circular right so um when i was given my dharma name i thought oh mountain big strong right but now i think it's changed in that

[51:41]

I'm seeing it as I'm not big and strong so much as I'm circling around various things that are happening to me and I'm learning from that. So it's less of a strength thing and more of a understanding and experiencing things that I can learn from. Does that make sense? Yeah, but, you know, it seems like that's also big and strong. Yeah, I guess you're right. That's kind of an irony, too, because, you know, big and strong doesn't mean brute, a brute, or somebody who's immovable. Yeah. More somebody who's maybe soft, but yet has has resilience.

[52:47]

Well, that's you. Thank you. OK, I think that Joe, you want to say something to answer your question? Yeah. Morning, Gary. It's sort of a technical question, but maybe it'll still be helpful. Today, you talked about what is yourself. And your next talk is planning the whole world as medicine. But the phrase was flipped, right? Usually it's the whole world as medicine. What is yourself? So I was wondering why you started with the latter part and not started with the world as medicine for the second talk. Well, believe it or not, I thought that what is the self would be easier. It wasn't easier, and it was like, you know, I could tell from my audience here that people were a little confused or baffled.

[53:52]

It's interesting, you know, one thing that's interesting about Cleary's translation, he says, medicine and disease subdue each other, colon. It's not semicolon, it's colon. the whole earth is medicine, semicolon, then he says, what is the self? So it's almost like the first and second phrase are, he's combining those, but then he turns around and he says, what is the self? I don't know if that says anything at all about your question. But it does say something about where he's pointing, where he's taking his sangha when he says that. Yeah, that was the main reason is that I thought it would be, when I read the koan and I read the commentary, which I wanted to bring into this talk, a lot of the commentary, which I think I did,

[55:15]

I thought it addressed a lot about self, and that was the main reason. And I thought where the whole earth is medicine, he doesn't say a lot about it directly, which I think I'm going to have to really mine somehow. Does that help? Thanks, Gary. Thanks a lot. Yeah. Oh, Mary. I just want to thank you. You have forever changed my experience of the zendo by comparing it to a basketball court. And I just want to play a little bit with that metaphor because I'm so entranced with the lawyers of how fluid and intuitive they are and how much that forms

[56:16]

that we use reflect those same qualities. I missed the first. What is fluid and... What is it? The warriors. Basketball players. Oh, yes. They are. Is there a question in there though? No? No, I was just playing with a metaphor of our forms. as a basketball team okay yeah yeah they move they're um they're interesting to watch because like no other team they're all moving without the ball all the time all the time where if you watch the other teams they're um a lot of times they just give the ball to one person and their star their star player and the other guys all just stand still so there's a constant Give and take with, yeah.

[57:20]

Pretty Zanish. Okay, go ahead. In the last sentence of your talk, you said the phrase absolute freedom. Yeah. And I think it also included the, could you read it again, the word achieved? And my question is, who encounters absolute freedom. Okay. You know, that's Suzuki Roshi saying, and it's interesting, I looked at Mary, and I think I did when I said that, because in my Wayseeking Mind talk, I think I said that you can't really achieve it all the time, or something to that effect. Yeah, he says, I'm trying to see it, yeah.

[58:24]

Your mind should be concentrated on your breathing. This kind of activity is a fundamental activity to a universal being. Without this experience, this practice, it is impossible to attain absolute freedom. That's the one you said. And you're saying, who achieves that? Well, I think we do. You know, when we are the swinging door of breathing in and out and just letting not being caught by the mind or particular circumstances, not being overly caught. Not that you shouldn't pay attention to it though. Not that you shouldn't sometimes act around it, but yeah. To be difficult, who is experiencing the open door? What is the who there? That I don't know.

[59:27]

It's a moment by moment, me or you. Linda Hess has a question.

[60:33]

And maybe the last question. Who has your hand up? Linda Hess. Oh, yeah, Linda. Go ahead, Linda. I noticed you had your hand up several times and didn't get to ask a question. So this is great that you get asked. I think that was a ghost dame that had their hand up several times. I don't think that was me. But anyway, hi. Hi, Gary. Hi. I was inspired by your bringing basketball onto the floor of the Zendo too. So it made me think this is just a comment. You know, the Warriors, the Warriors really play a great game of basketball and I think they have fun, you know, besides being serious. But last week, Steve Kerr, Steve Kerr turned into a, Not Stephen Kerr. Sorry. Who's the coach of the Warriors? Steve Kerr.

[61:36]

Steve Kerr, right. He turned into an angry Titan with three heads and six arms last week. And boy, was that a great moment in the game. So I don't think there's a question in there. I just wanted to bring... that into the conversation. Maybe you can think of a question out of that. Yeah, you know, when I read over the talk several times to my wife, and when the massacre that happened this week came about, I started to feel bad about it because, you know, I had children in it, and this awful thing that happened. And I felt like, should I take all that out? And then I thought, no, I'm not gonna take it out.

[62:38]

It's a very sad thing, crazy. I like what Kerr said. I mean, he was pretty vocal about something has to change. To me, he showed how that play and that angry Titan can instantly transform into each other in a beneficial way. That's all. I'm done. Yeah. I should have talked about basketball. You did. Maybe we should end.

[63:46]

Okay. Thank you all for coming. Jesus. Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them. Karma gains are boundless, I vow to enter them. The Buddha's way is unsurpassable.

[64:25]

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