And I'll surpass penetrate. I had a great fortune to meet our Dharma Talk speaker today, Ellen Webb. Ellen was born and raised in Berkeley, California. She has been a dancer, choreographer, and teacher for most of her life. Ellen is married. There's a husband over there under the bell. You can't hide. She lives in Oakland where she raised two children.

[01:08]

She began her Zen practice with Joko Beck and Diane Roseto at the Bay Zen Center in Oakland in 1992. In 2002, she started practicing here at the Berkeley Zen Center and received lay ordination of Roshi in 2010. She was a head student, or Shuso, at BCC in 2018. She has held several practice positions and is currently head server the health and safety coordinator, and the procurer of Oriyuki supplies, which are the fantastic eating bowls that we do from time to time. Her dharma name is Maiko Kaishin, which means dancing light, open heart. Please open your heart to us, and let's hear what you've got to say. Thank you, Russ. Yep. And welcome, everyone. We often especially welcome the people who are new today.

[02:15]

I see quite a few people who I haven't seen before. So I want to welcome you, but I actually want to welcome everyone. I'm really happy to see everyone and to see those on Zoom as well. I'm going to begin with a Zen story, or what we call a koan. And this story begins with two young monks who are kind of coming to pay their respects to a Zen master who lives in a hermitage. His name is Seppo. And when they come to help him, he steps out and he says, kind of a Zen challenge, like, what is this? And I think, sort of baffled, they just repeat what he said.

[03:15]

They say, what is this? And he's sort of disappointed, I think, with this reply, and just walks back into the message. And that's kind of the end of their encounter. And the two young ones continue on their poem. pilgrimage and go to a monastery of another Zen master named Ganto, who's actually a very close mother, so to speak, of Seko. And I'm kind of abbreviating this a little, but they say, they tell this story to Ganto, and Ganto, who knows Seko very well, says, If you want to know the last word, if you want to know the last word, it's just this. And the last word is kind of associated with a similar expression, which means water used to moisten the lips of a dying person.

[04:29]

So... this would imply that these words are kind of the last words that somebody would say when they're dying, when everything else was sort of dropped away. And it's actually an expression that we have a lot here, just this. And so I think it has resonance, and mainly for a lot of people, but it occurred to me that maybe for people who are new here, it didn't. And it made me remember that when I first came here, and I came from another Zen center that kind of used my language, I actually felt like people were sort of speaking in a code that I didn't really totally understand. And over time, I kind of got with the program, but in the beginning, I was kind of baffled. And I don't really remember many of the of the phrases or words that that were hard for me but one that I remember is fairly simple which was the backwards step and you know people would use it and they wouldn't use it and I don't know why somebody what they were talking about but I didn't and it probably took me 10 years you know I sort of had this image of somebody stepping back off a cliff or something but you know

[05:57]

it finally dawned on me that it just meant sort of stepping back from you know your reaction or your um sort of relation to what was going on in the moment um so anyway i wanted to give you know a little bit more sort of possible words for just this Ram Dasa's be here now, or just being present, or an open awareness, or as Suzuki Roshi used to say, things as it is. And I studied this koan with a group of friends late last spring, and so These words, just this, were kind of on my mind.

[07:00]

When I went away for the summer, you know, I was kind of asking myself, like, you know, what is the this of just this? What is it? You know, it's our breath, it's our movement, it's our sensory, physical sensory awareness, it's our sensations. our thoughts? Is it our concepts? Is it our fantasies? Is it our memories? You know, I was just kind of inquiring into these things as, you know, I was just going about my life. And stayed with me all summer, you know, kind of, well, if these are fantasies, how come, and our thoughts, how come it sometimes feels like those take us so far away from the present moment. So I did go away for the summer for a couple of months.

[08:07]

I went to a place I often go in the summer, which is a very remote part of the North Cascades National Park. And I stay in a small house that my parents bought there many years ago. And it's I've talked about it often, and one reason I've talked about it often is because I usually give a talk once a year, and it often falls very soon after I've been in Stahican. And so many of my stories are about Stahican, whereas maybe if I came in January, it would be about West Oakland or something. So those of you who have heard other Stahican stories, bear with me, please. So it's quite a remote place, as I said. There's no connecting roads. You can't drive there.

[09:08]

It's not an island, but it's at the end of a very long inland lake. And it's in the North Cascades National Park. And it's... kind of a deep valley with mountains on either side. And so you have to take a boat for quite a long time to get there or else hike in or ride a horse or somehow get there without a car. There are cars there, but, you know, you have to either get your car on a barge to get it up there. So there's not many cars, there's no telephones, the internet is kind of wonky, and it's just generally quieter than Oakland, where I normally live. And it gave me quite an opportunity to investigate this question of what this is, or what the this of this is.

[10:14]

I kind of, as I was doing, had two things on my mind that sort of accompanied me in this inquiry. And one was something that Sojin often said, which is, you should always know where your breath is. And another one was, a story about Suzuki Roshi where some student was asking him or sort of complaining about, you know, thinking all the time in zazen. And Suzuki Roshi said, what's wrong with thinking? So both of those sort of little phrases stayed with me as I went about my summer and my thoughts on this subject of I'm going to tell a couple of Sihican stories.

[11:22]

And the first one, actually both of them are about hiking. And so the first one is about a hike that I had taken many, many, many times in my life to a small lake, just a mile or so the road there. big lake and the trail goes up the side of the mountain and then around the lake and then it continues up quite a big and most people who visit the lake and it's a fairly popular spot kind of go to the first end of the lake or around part of the lake but they don't continue most people up the mountain or around the far side of the lake but go past the middle of the lake on the trail, and suddenly there was like this eruption of like little toads just jumping up and down like mad.

[12:38]

They're like little, like this big, and it wasn't the first time I'd seen them, so I wasn't convinced. But this probably happens twice a year, but could happen more, but apparently the toads in the lake, you know, evolved from tadpoles to toads and they crawl out of the lake and they're on the lake and the trail and then a few of them are on the trail and then they're above the trail. And there are literally thousands and thousands of them. And, you know, they're afraid of me. So they're like, just moving like crazy just jumping up and down like man they're very close together so it's kind of like is moving and it's a kind of just remarkable moment of aliveness um it's a little jarring also it's a little bit like what's happening and um so um you know i had like

[13:45]

I'm so happy that this kind of evidence that climate change isn't destroying all the amphibians in the area, because amphibians are very susceptible to climate change. And then I thought, oh, they're so cute. They're just so cute, but what happens to all of them? I mean, there's thousands of them. And then I thought, Well, I guess most of them don't survive. Most of them get eaten. And I was a little bit, like, sad. And then I thought, but if we did all survive, this lake would be, like, completely full of adult toes, which I didn't really like that idea either. So at some point, I kind of came back. being there with all this aliveness, which actually, if you stop, kind of settles down a little bit.

[14:51]

And, you know, I noticed the lake, which was very quiet. The toads and the, you know, a few birds sounds. And I noticed about the thoughts I was having that, and maybe you noticed this too, that most of them had quite a bit to do with me. I was happy that there was this evidence that climate change hadn't destroyed the amphibians. I thought the toads were cute. I was sorry they were all probably going to get eaten by snakes or owls or something else. And I was also The lake wouldn't be full of 10,000 adult toads. And, you know, I just realized that so much of my perception had to do with what I liked and what I didn't like.

[16:01]

And so I'll read you a quote. Suzuki Roshi, for the most part, even though we think we are observing things as it is, actually we are not. Why? Because of our discrimination, the Buddhist way is to try hard to let go of this kind of emotional discrimination of good and bad, to let go of our prejudices and to see things as it is. So, you know, that was sort of... inquiry and I realized that for me it is hard to be open to things that I don't like. It's hard to be open to evidence of climate change. I noticed myself sort of skipping those articles about polar bears starving to death on icebergs and

[17:11]

It's hard to turn toward sickness and pain and death and sadness and the suffering and violence in the world. It's hard to turn toward those things and really be. So we kind of turn away. We distract ourselves and repress and avoid. And it's a little bit, I think, easier to think of the things that we like, that give us pleasure, that we love. But I think there's always a twinge in that of knowing that life is impermanent and those things are too. So that's the first Haken story about hiking. And here's the second one.

[18:13]

So again, I was hiking on a trail that I was very familiar with. Seeking actually is a Native American word that means the way through. Seeking itself was not a home to Native people, but it was up sort of a way through the mountains from the eastern of Washington to the coast and sort of a trading route also. So I was walking along this river and I was with one of my children and her husband and also who I very familiar with, and also a cousin of my son-in-law, who I didn't know hardly at all, a young man who was maybe 20, and very nice young man, but I didn't know him well.

[19:18]

But I hiked that trail many, many times with my children, and for many years, and sort of shepherded them down the trail and coaxed them. But now they're in their 30s, and they're very strong hikers, all of them. and now much stronger than I am. And there's a little bit of denial, I think, in our family that this sort of turn has happened. I don't think people, including me, really want to admit that they can all out-hike me completely and that I'm sometimes keeping up with them And, you know, whatever this also entails that I'm getting older and probably will die at some point. So there's just a little bit of denial in the family about this, and especially I noticed in my kids.

[20:22]

And anyway, so instead of them being in front, I was in front because really I can't keep up with them anymore. So they put me in the front and then they, you know, hide behind me to sort of keep pace with me. And so we were hiking along the trail, and they were talking, and I was talking with them, and I turned my head, and I tripped, and I feel flat on my face. And then, you know, I sort of got up, and they sort of helped me out, and I kind of dusted myself off, and I knew I hadn't really hurt myself, You know, and the sort of impulse, my impulse, and my kid's impulse was to sort of say, you're fine, Mom. Let's keep going. But this young man, who I didn't know very well, just stopped everybody and he just said, wait a minute. Mrs. Walker, she's actually not married me.

[21:25]

He said, Mrs. Walker, you can't go on. You have to sit down. And then you may have to go home. And, you know, this was just like, outside the realm of my family. It was just a surprise, but so sweet. And so I did sit down. And when I sat down, you know, suddenly I just had this welling up of feeling. You know, I was humiliated. I was embarrassed. I was shocked, you know, really shocked physically of like being my face in the space of about a second and um you know i was like kind of breathless because my breath had been sort of knocked out of me and um kind of physically shaken up and um you know also like there were memories of when i was more invulnerable and my children were littler and and also

[22:29]

thoughts about the future of like, well, what did this mean? Would I fall more? You know, just like so many things in that moment of sitting there, I felt a little bit like crying actually. And, you know, I came across a word and this is a word that a writer that I like a lot named Elena Ferrande, who some of you may be familiar with. uses kind of for these moments when many things are present or come up. He calls it a swarm. And it felt like a swarm. And another writer named Parul Sanal, kind of commenting on that feeling of swarm, said, a swarm possesses its own discipline. It moves untethered. Nothing about the notion of a swarm comforts or consoles.

[23:33]

It doesn't contain like a story. It allows contradiction, dissonance, doubt, or imminence, movement, and open destiny. So the words that really stand out for me from that are allow and open. And, you know, I was sort of in that moment, you know, I couldn't help really opening to all the physical and emotional and the thoughts that came up. But I realized that my tendency not open to those things and not open completely to them. And especially the ones that are, you know, we want to brush off or move past or ignore, which was my impulse.

[24:40]

So that's all the speaking stories. And now I'm going to move on to Suzuki Roshi's story. And this is a story that I heard a long time ago, and I cannot remember who told me. And I don't know if other people know this story. And I was sort of uneasy about sharing it because I couldn't. I heard it so long ago, I wasn't even sure I remembered it correctly. But it's been a really meaningful story to me. So I just... I don't think Sojin told me this story, but I finally wrote Red Anderson, and I asked him if he knew this story. Well, he told me this story, because I thought maybe he did. He's a teacher, for those of you who don't know him, at Green Gulch in San Francisco. And he knew Suzuki Roshi well.

[25:47]

So I wrote him, and he wrote me back and I'll tell you what he said, but first I'll tell you the story, which is the way I remember it, which is that whoever told me the story was Suki Roshi from San Francisco Zen Center to Pasahara at sunset. And the person who was driving said, the sunset is beautiful. And Suzuki Roshi said, to say something is beautiful is a sin. And, you know, I sort of wondered, like when I first heard that, like, does he know what sin, does Suzuki Roshi know what that word means in our culture? Is that, is that something he doesn't, such a code word. But anyway, so I,

[26:50]

Like I said, I asked Fred Anderson, and he responded, there may, of course, be many memories of this teaching. Here's my memory. So this is his. Early in my time with him, I heard him say, well, you say something is beautiful. That is a sin. And then Reb went on to say, that surprised me. And yet I was in deep accord with it, and I still am. And then he said, the part about driving to Tassajara might be somebody else's story. So he was surprised by it. I was really surprised by it. And of course, I say it all the time to this day. I say things are beautiful. And I say many other similar things. So I'm definitely . whatever, sin, but when I think about it, as I say, I really think about it often, I realize that in a way, when you say a sunset is beautiful, you sort of contain it in a certain way, or that's what I feel, that you contain it or you label it or you pigeonhole it,

[28:14]

And in a certain way, it releases you from actually completely experiencing it. And it's also, you know, it saves you from, you know, that feeling of really not knowing, you know, which is another kind of phrase we use a lot of just not knowing. And so I realize that that kind of allowing is, you know, it's tempting to try to contain things, to kind of know what they are or pigeonhole them, but there's a kind of openness and sort of experience that maybe comes from the backwards step of sort of stepping back a little bit. You know, an example, a little example might be if the airplane went over or a dog was barking, you might say, oh, airplane.

[29:27]

But you might be sort of done listening then. You know, it wouldn't be like really allowing the sound to be there unknown. And of course, every airplane really is different. And every airplane sounds different. And that's kind of daunting, really, I think. And sort of to turn toward that sound without trying to contain it. You know, it takes a special kind of allowing, I think. And of course, that's true of kind of in a big way. Pretty much any emotion, I think.

[30:31]

I mean, if somebody were to say something to you that made you angry, you could say, I'm angry. Again, you know, if you step back a little, there's so many ways to be angry. I mean, there's so many parts of that. Like, you could be irritated, or you could be annoyed, or you could just have a feeling in your body. Something altogether unnameable. But again, it's tempting to label it. It's tempting to know it. And it's a little frightening, I think, to not know it. I had the thought in the middle of thinking about this talk that really every breath is different.

[31:42]

And I was kind of overwhelmed by that thought, like every breath is different. You know, that's a little different than just sort of feeling your breath is like, that's the kind of opening that even, I don't want to do that. So, I will say that, sitting practice is kind of uh i guess what i want to have to say before we go on is to say that you know if the truck's barreling down the street toward you and you hear it i'm not encouraging you to like stop and say what is that sound i want to be you know i you know you step out of the way it's impractical in a certain way to label things.

[32:46]

It's kind of neat to do that. But there are times when there's a different possibility. And I would say that when we sit is one of those times. And when we sit in this area, pretty well taken care of. These are quiet. Not too much is happening in space, usually. And I think also our posture is, you know, whether we're in a chair or we're sitting cross-legged or we're sitting on a bench, that we're fairly stable. So allowing is a little bit easier or it feels a little bit more possible.

[33:50]

And, you know, to kind of let things be as they are moment after moment and sort of change and not have to kind of define and decide and make decisions. Some of that gets taken away. So it's kind of an opportunity to sort of explore this and sort of explore the question, what is this? I'm kind of, I have to ask, why? Why are we doing this? What is the, you know, why to import all this stuff, you know?

[34:54]

And when I first started studying with Joko Beck, my first long session, I think it was seven days, and it was a pretty big experience for me. And toward the end of the session, she saw everybody every day. I talked to her at the session, and she said, well, you know, how are you doing? How was this for you? And I just out of my mouth came the words, I feel braver. And I sort of felt like I could actually be open to more. The kind of things that I tended to deny or suppress, I felt more open to. And, you know, she kind of got this out. And I didn't so much use that now, that word, but people use the word joy, which I actually can relate to pretty well, but it's awfully close for me to happiness, which this isn't necessarily.

[36:03]

I mean, it's kind of an opening to things that are sometimes very sad and grief. and to suffering. So happiness and joy are just a little bit too close for me. I could use the word enjoyment. That's a little bit better I think for me. It's like I think just enjoying it all a little bit more along with that openness. But maybe the word that works the best right now is the word It allows me a kind of freedom in the world to sort of take it in and not push it away, to turn toward it rather than away from it. So I turn toward a bigger palette.

[37:10]

So I think that's really the end of my talk. I think that's what I have to say today. You're laughing. And so I'll open it up short. I feel a little bit like during the summer I got kind of obsessed or narrow-minded about this subject. So I am happy to open it up. in your thoughts. Yes. Well, thank you. It turns out this is going to dovetail very nicely with the talk I'm playing to you next week. But the question I have for you is you've addressed this. Speak of just. That's a really good question because I feel like being aware of your breath is just, and being aware of your posture is just also.

[38:32]

But I feel being open to everything is a little harder for me to see as just, but I think that's just I guess I'll also say that Suzuki Roshi's phrase, things as it is, one is tempted often to say things as they is or things as they are, even when I'm quoting Suzuki Roshi. And I realize that he says it because it's all one, right? It's creating the singularity. One of the things that Rev said in his things, it surprised me and I think often these things are surprising and that's a surprising one to me.

[39:34]

Things as it is kind of always surprises me. There's a question back here. Thank you for your talk. You spoke a little about how this remote place you visit. Can you say the name again? Stahegan. It actually means the way through. Stahegan. When you visit Stahegan, it's an opportunity to really be with this inquiry in a different environment. And I'm curious to hear you talk about your experience of that transition back from Stahegan to a place like Oakland. How does that shift? the space you can hold for an inquiry like that if it doesn't, what differences do you notice? Well, that's a really good question. And it sounds like maybe you have some experience with it. And as I say, I often go there, and I often go there for every year.

[40:46]

And I guess every year, coming back is a little bit different. Mostly, I just say for myself what I notice is, like Sashim, it's a place that I can't distract myself as easily. And it's so tempting to distract oneself. you know, I kind of think of myself as a Zen student, and I really notice how tempting the world is. And so I'm busier. And I like being busy, you know? I like it, actually. And I don't like it, but I also like it. And I'm drawn to, you know,

[41:47]

participating more. I'm a little more wary. I'm quite a bit more, I mean, like, because you have to either hike out or take a boat out, nobody ever steals anything. You know, it's like you can leave, you know, like, out on the boat dock and nobody will take it. So, you know, you never like your car, you never like your house. So that kind of weariness, that kind of You know, how many cars are broken in and open every day? You know, that kind of thinking. You don't have so much, that kind of leery feeling. So I guess that's kind of what I say. And I try to stay present. I try to stay open. It's harder for me. And online. Oh, I'm sorry.

[42:49]

Wait a minute. There you go. Take this one first? Yeah. Okay. Thank you for your talk. I was wondering, maybe you could say a few words about justice in children and experience of being a mother and children. And I'm imagining like when they're young, when it's sometimes tough to be with them and they say, you know, it's beautiful or they just say, wow. But maybe a few words of what does justice mean when you are a parent? Yeah. Well, now I'm a grandparent, so I have some day-to-day experience with this. I guess a little bit more. And there's really a lot I could say about it, I think, but one thing is I don't think, I think kids learn to do that, to say this is beautiful.

[43:59]

I think they learn that from us. You know, I think more, kind of more open and curious about what comes up in their lives, or they push it away more actively. You know, as a parent, I would say I was really young, and sometimes I really wasn't. And, you know, I had to be honest about that. I hope that's kind of what you're asking. I'm sorry, Ken. No. The... Saying something beautiful as a sin reminds me of another famous Zen dialogue where you have two of these Zen guys out somewhere, and one of them, they're looking at the mountains.

[45:02]

And one of them says, is not this reality? You can kind of see it's capital R, reality. And the other one says, yes. but it's a pity to say so. And I kind of, I like that, that the Sinwood, I'm actually delighted to see that he would say that, because I think it's getting to the same general idea that in some situations, you just don't want to do that. You're just mucking it up. Obviously, in other situations, you're overwhelmed, and you say, oh, that really is beautiful. Well, that's one thing. But just to sort of routinely say, oh, isn't that a beautiful sunset? It does kind of potentially spoil it or demean it or take away something of that.

[46:06]

But I think to say it's a sin... is just a stronger way of saying that. Same thing, like the thing that it's a pity to say that is a little more mellow. Okay, yes, I agree, but don't say it all the time, please. So I just think there's sort of two different ways of getting at the same point there. Well, I agree with you. I also think the word sin made me never forget what he said. I don't think I would ever forget this. There's someone else online, and I can't really see who it is. No? Yes? Oh, they have two. Hi, Ellen. Thank you so much. love the images that you bring back from the trail they're very beautiful and visceral and what a pity it is to say so um uh it i i was remembering that one someone asked uh sojin roshi some question about justice and he said that justice is just this

[47:33]

And I've really pondered that over the years. What really did he mean by that? And one of the things that came up is something about Val. And so I'm wondering, how do you experience just this in relationship with living by Val? Well, I'm not sure I had an answer But I'll tell you what comes up in my mind. I think it's a really important question, actually. And sort of maybe what I'm hearing is, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, you know, if you're opening to this, do you do anything about it? Is that kind of what your question is? Oh, well, you're reminding me that one time Sojin Rose, she also said that our responsibility is response ability, our ability to respond.

[48:48]

And so that's the resonance I hear in what you're saying. The question is always to me, how, how, when the tree frogs are just whoop, and aware of all those aspects that you talked about, who can say what is right and wrong, and yet in the moment, what is living by vow and responsibility? I'm not sure what in the moment living by vow is. I don't really know how to answer that. Maybe you have a response, but my feeling is that you know, taking something in and being present for it does sort of clarify what your response is going to be.

[49:54]

To take it completely in clarifies your response. And that could be in the moment or it could not be just in the moment. It could be a very... long-term commitment but being present for what's really happening what's really going on and also what you're capable of i mean there's also the awareness of your capacity um and your limitations um i think to be present for all of that and then to move forward seems fruitful to me thank you Thank you, Ellen. The sunset, it's beautiful. It's a sin to say that. And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about, wow, the sky is hazy and it's smoky.

[50:58]

And the sin of that compared to the... The word sin... throws it off. So those seem to be the same coin and different sides. And I'm curious, and then there's the whole added thing is often sunset because of the particulate matter in the sky. So I'd like to hear you just talk about those two different spoken or observed sins how they feel to you when you know that and how is that with it work with it uh-huh okay um so we're talking about smoke which i have a lot of experience with mostly in sneaking um and

[52:02]

I think where there's the practical there's the truck coming at you you know there's like you know the smoke is you know 250 p.m. 2.5 and you know I need to do something about that like turn my air filter on there's that side of it there's the other side of it which is you know taking it in what is this what is this what is this experience so there's there's both sides of that one And the one about the beautiful sunset is great. The one about the beautiful sunset is great. Is the one about the terrible haze, is that also great? No, that's not great. That's just is. You know, and it is, and you need to wear your mask. around your air filter.

[53:06]

And then there's some experience of it also that you don't have to react to. That's just, it's smoky. Oh, thank you for such a rich talk. I mean, at a lot of levels, I could just feel what you were talking about. And that thing of naming, it brought to mind, there's a scene in Blood Meridian. It's a Cormac McCarthy book. They're out in the West and they're sort of exploring and he's this character, the judge, and he's collecting all these little plants. And at the end of the day, he sits down and he sketches them in a book. And then he gives them a name and then he throws them in the And somebody asked him, you know, Jez, why are you doing that?

[54:09]

And he says, if I can name it, I can control it. And so when I read that, it really spoke to me because I see how much my naming is to control. And in my own practice recently, I've seen how important feeling safe is. for me, that in order to not reach out, it's almost an aggressive act, you know, to name everything. You're ordering it, and you know it's gonna happen, and you can predict it versus just allowing it to be it. And that can feel scary, you know, a little frightening. And so I'm trying to work with, personally, just a lot. Allowing that to be there, but then also reassuring myself somehow that it's okay, that I'm safe.

[55:12]

And I wonder if you could speak to that, if you have that sense of... I do. I know exactly what you're talking about. I feel that too. It's like things, and I love the word control. That actually isn't a word that I need. I think that's a really good word. And I do, I feel that. I feel safe, you know, that things are going to be... you know i mean if every breath is different i mean like what does that mean you know

[55:43]

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