I vow to taste the truth of the Director's words. Good morning. Well, this talk of Suzuki Roshi's is labeled, Ordinary Mind and Buddha Mind, where he talks about that we are both ordinary and Buddha at the same time.

[01:00]

We have ordinary mind and Buddha mind at the same time, which brings up the question of what is the meaning of ordinary? So he starts off by saying that the point of my talk is to give you some support for your practice. There's no need for you to remember what I say. He always said that. Often, when he would give a talk, he would say, you don't have to remember what I say. Just be present for the talk. We would all fall asleep. Something about the way he spoke was kind of slow. And, you know, if a speaker leaves spaces between there, sentences, everybody takes the opportunity to doze.

[02:07]

And then at Sokoji, which was on Bush Street, there's always a lot of traffic going by. And then he would speak, and then he would get to the critical sentence, and then a truck would go by. And he was just talking at the same never raised the volume because of the truck. So we missed it. He was going to tell us the secret and we missed it. So anyway, he says, there's no need to remember what I say. If you stick to it, you stick to the support, not to the tree itself. A tree, when it is strong, may still want some support, but the most important thing is the tree itself, or the student, not the support. So he didn't see himself as wanting to give too much support, or too much of something, just enough to encourage you to find your own support.

[03:22]

So this is Suzuki Roshi's way, actually. He could be your friend, or whatever is needed, he would be, but just enough. So in his talk, the talk is just to help you just to give you some support, not to hang on to the words, not to think that, oh, now we have something. Because if you think you have something, then you don't work for yourself, you don't work on your own. So it becomes too convenient. And this is often what happens in practice, various practices. People want to know, and they want to milk the information, but it doesn't help that much.

[04:35]

And also, there are some teachers who like to keep their students very close. But other teachers, like Suzuki Roshi, would say, as soon as you establish a relationship with a teacher, you should leave. So he was always encouraging us to find our own way. But of course everybody stayed around. But still, he was very happy when the student would not be too reliant on him. I like to send my students to Tassajara so they don't become too reliant on me. So, I also remember when he gave a talk one time about going back to Eheji.

[05:38]

He said, I remember going back to Eheji after a long time, you know, he practiced there when he was very young, and then he went back much later in life and he said, and he looked at those, they have huge trees, big cryptomeria trees, and he said, Those old monks are still there. So he says, I am one tree and each one of you is a tree. You should stand up by yourself. When a tree stands up by itself, we call that tree a Buddha. In other words, when you practice zazen in its true sense, you are really Buddha. Sometimes we call it a tree and sometimes we call it a Buddha. Buddha, tree, or you are all many names of one Buddha. So when you sit, you are independent from various beings, and you are related to various beings.

[06:50]

And when you have perfect composure in your practice, you include everything. and you are not just you. You are the whole world or the whole cosmos and you are a Buddha. So when you sit, you are an ordinary human and you are also Buddha. The attitude of our understanding in Soto Zen is that stillness within activity is the basic function of the universe. Everything in the universe is practicing zazen. And it's not simply the Soto school.

[07:52]

Everything is practicing zazen without knowing anything about Soto Zen. It's like everything returns to stillness. Activity comes out of stillness and everything returns to stillness. This is the basic activity of the universe. We're simply participating with everything in a very conscious way. So at night time all the activity slows down and comes to rest. And then when the sun comes up, the birds wake up, nature wakes up and starts its dynamic activity. But the stillness is always there.

[08:54]

Just because the activity flares up doesn't mean that the stillness goes away. Stillness is always the basic nature of everything within all of the dynamic activity. So when we sit, we say we're sitting with the whole universe. We become one with the whole universe. It's not just my practice. It's Buddha's practice. So when we sit zazen, we set aside me and mine, I, me, and mine, and take up Buddha's practice. And it's Buddha that is sitting zazen. It's also Buddha that is doing all of your activity in the world.

[09:57]

But we usually think of that as I, me, and mine, as Buddha's expression. So you are not just you, you are the whole world or the whole cosmos and you are a Buddha. So when you sit, you are ordinary human and you are Buddha. Before you sit, you may stick to the idea that you are ordinary. So when you sit, you are not the same being as you are before you sit. Do you understand? You may say that it is not possible to be ordinary and holy. When you think this way, your understanding is one-sided. In Japanese, we call someone who understands things from just one side a tambang-kan, a board-carrying person, like a carpenter or a laborer who carries a board on their shoulder

[11:08]

And they can see over here, but they can't see over there because the board obscures their vision. Someone who carries a board on his shoulder. Because you carry a big board on your shoulder, you cannot see the other side. You think you are just an ordinary human. But if you take the board off, you will understand, oh, I'm Buddha too. How can I be both Buddha and ordinary human? I'm amazed. That's enlightenment. When you experience enlightenment, you will understand things more freely. You won't mind whether people call you ordinary mind. Okay, I'm ordinary mind. Buddha, okay, I'm Buddha. How do I come to be both Buddha and ordinary mind? I don't know, but actually I am Buddha and ordinary mind. So there's this wonderful koan, but I'll get to that.

[12:11]

Buddha, in a true sense, is not different from ordinary mind. An ordinary mind is not something apart from what is holy. This is a complete understanding of ourself. When we practice zazen with this understanding, that is true zazen. We will not be bothered by anything. Whatever you hear, whatever you see, that will be okay. To have this feeling, it's necessary to become accustomed to our practice. If you keep practicing, you will naturally have this understanding and this feeling. It will not be just intellectual. You'll have an actual feeling. Even though someone can explain what Buddhism is, if that person does not have the actual feeling, we cannot call that person a real Buddhist. Only when your personality is characterized by this kind of feeling can we call you a Buddhist. The way to become characterized by this kind of understanding is to always Concentrate on this point. Many koans and sayings bring out this point.

[13:13]

So I will tell you the koan that brings out this point, which you probably already know. When Joshu was a young man, he studied with Nansen. And one day he asked Nansen, what is the way? And Nansen said, Ordinary mind is the way. And Joshu said, well, can I attain that? And Nansen said, if you try to attain it, you stumble past. If you don't try to attain it, you fall into complacency. What will you do? So this is our koan of ordinary mind.

[14:18]

What is ordinary mind? How can you attain ordinary mind? Shall we try to attain ordinary mind? We can't really try to attain ordinary mind because ordinary mind is always with us. There's another koan. Daitsu Chisho Buddha, who sat for a hundred aeons without attaining Buddha mind. Why didn't he attain Buddha mind? Because he was a non-attained Buddha. So practice is attainment. Practice is attainment in that you attain what you have. We're looking over there, and it's in our hand.

[15:29]

It's called selling water by the river. Or Sasaki Roshi, Nyogen Sasaki, characterized it as the country bumpkin who took the plane to New York and landed at the airport and looked around and said, where's New York? So ordinary and holy. Ordinary mind, holy mind. Ordinary person, So there are two ordinaries. One ordinary is called michi and the other is called do. Michi mind and do mind. One is, michi mind is like relative mind or momentary mind.

[16:39]

And Do is continuous mind, or eternal mind, eternal ordinary. So what we usually consider as ordinary is Michi, or our momentary mind, our usual activity, getting up in the morning, going to the Zen Do, ordinary activity for Zen students. But the other ordinary is the ordinary mind that is continually and constantly there, which we don't usually pay attention to because it's beyond our thinking. It's like a continuous hum But because it's such a continuous hum, you don't hear it.

[17:44]

You only hear it when it stops. It's like the hum of the refrigerator. You get so used to it that you don't even hear it anymore. But when it stops, you say, what happened? So this is Buddha mind, but both are Buddha mind. They're both ordinary. So when we say ordinary mind is away, what are we talking about? How can you attain that which is always there? But because we don't hear it, we look for it. But when we sit zazen, we hear it. But we don't hear it with our ears. even though the sounds we hear are it, and the sights we see are it.

[18:53]

So, we take very careful, we would like to be able to take very careful care of each moment, because each moment is it. Each moment is the way. And what we're looking for is this. The hardest place to be is where we are. So he says, ordinary mind understands things dualistically But even though we're doing what we usually do, that is actually Buddha's activity, Buddha's mind. Buddha's activity and our activity are not different.

[20:01]

In another place he talks about the movie and the screen. Life is like a movie. The movie needs to be projected onto something, otherwise it's not a movie. So the basis of the movie is the white screen, the clear white screen, which is so ordinary that we don't even think about it when we watch the movie. We're interested in the movie, we're interested in something that scares us, or we're interested in something that entertains us. The screen itself is the basis for all the movies. Someone may say that such-and-such is Buddha's mind, and this thus-and-so is ordinary mind, but there's no need to explain it in that way. When we do something, we can't say, I am doing something, because there is no one who is independent from others.

[21:12]

When I say something, you will hear it. I can't do anything by myself, just for myself. If someone does something, everyone will be doing something, because everything is connected to everything else. Whatever activity we do is totally based on the activity of the whole universe, even though we don't feel that. Everything is continually influencing everything else. It's like one piece of cloth. If you pull one corner, the whole cloth comes along with it. That's why we say if one person is enlightened, the whole universe, the whole world is enlightened. When you wake up, the whole world wakes up. even though it doesn't seem that way.

[22:17]

So moment after moment, we continue our activity, which is Buddha's activity, but you cannot say that this is just Buddha's activity, because you are actually doing something too. Then you may say, I, but we don't know what I that is. You try to say who is doing what because you want to intellectualize your activity. But before you say anything, the actual activity is present. Who are you is right there. That's enlightened activity. Before you intellectualize it, before we rationalize it, or before we make a story about it, So our activity is both cosmic and personal. So there's no need to explain what we're doing. We may want to explain it, but we should not feel uneasy if we can't, because it is impossible to understand.

[23:30]

This is why we always have such a hard time when you go home and your mother says, what are you doing? I kind of know, but I don't know. It's very hard. So I always say, if you want to understand what you're doing, you should go home and explain it to your mother. This is number one koan for you. So actually, you are here. Right now, right here. So before you understand yourself, you are here. So you have to stand up in the midst of not knowing. This is very important. If you wait until you understand, you won't be able to stand up. You have to stand up in the midst of not knowing.

[24:30]

And if you do that, you'll know. Even though you don't know, you know. So, actually, you are right here. So before you understand yourself, you are you. After you explain, you are not really you anymore, because you just have an image. But usually, you will stick to the image, which is not you, and you will ignore the reality, which is you, because we feel that we need to explain something. So we create the image and then we believe in the image, we believe in the story, and then we lose the actuality. That's why it's good to be silent. Silence really has that quality of, it is only what you're doing and not what you're explaining. So in explaining, you know, Suzuki Roshi said, when you, I have to give

[25:40]

a talk, but we make a mistake on purpose. It's a big mistake to explain our practice, but we have to do it, so excuse us. So as Dogen Zenji said, we human beings attach to something that is not real and forget all about what is real. That is actually what we do. If you realize this point, you will have perfect composure and you can trust yourself. Whatever happens to you, it doesn't matter. Well, it does matter, in a sense, and it doesn't matter in another sense. On the side of momentariness, it matters, but in the long run, it doesn't matter at all. So, we have these two sides, the momentary side, which is time, discontinuous time, that's momentariness.

[26:50]

Where the side of comparative values, we compare ourselves to other things and that's how we know who we are. We know our place and we know our activity by comparing it to everything around us. And then the other side is we know who we are regardless of whatever happens to us, doesn't matter. we know who we are, and we have composure because we know that we're Buddha, which is continuous time, just always now. That's called eternal life. So, you know, in When we think about the realm of comparative values, we think about justice, righteousness, war, atrocity, pain, suffering.

[27:57]

These are all in the realm of comparative values. And this is human side, the human side. Because it's only human beings that worry about this stuff. The rest of the universe doesn't seem to care. Planets explode. You know, the universe is constantly being destroyed and renewed. But human beings suffer Because we live in the realm of comparative values. And so we have ideas about justice and pain and suffering and so forth. But this is all human. Human codes. It's not in the realm of absolute values.

[29:02]

It's in the realm of comparative values. So in the realm of absolute values, you find your composure. Very hard to find our composure in the realm of comparative values, because everything is changing and shifting, and values are changing and shifting. There's nothing stable. Morality changes all the time. As soon as we have some security and stability, boom! It's all upset. And you see civilization advancing? No. It's simply changing. It's simply changing. Nothing's really changed, except the toys. We have to have toys to play. In the realm of comparative values, toys are necessary, because a baby needs toys in order to learn how to be in the world.

[30:09]

Take the toys away from the baby and the baby doesn't know how to grow up. Uchiyama Roshi used to have sashins, with no lecture, no kin-hen, no nothing, just sit facing the wall all day, because it was sashin without toys. We have sashins with toys, right? But I think it's good to have sashins with toys, because toys help us in our play. in order to learn to play with each other, we have to have some toys. You know? If you don't have some distance from each other, you can't play ball. Right? So, I think it's a nice idea to have sushis without toys, but I think that having sushis with toys is good for us.

[31:14]

Because it allows us to interact with each other. And why should it just be all serious? It's play. The play of the bodhisattvas. You ever heard of that? Bodhisattvas play in the realm of enlightenment. All work and no play. Not so good for you. But it's serious play. It's very serious play. And when your legs are hurting, you take it seriously, even though it's Bodhisattva play. He says, whatever happens to you, it doesn't matter in the realm of Buddha.

[32:22]

You trust yourself, and this is not the sound, not the usual trust or belief in what is not real. So you trust in what is real, and it's hard to put your trust in what is not real, which means the phenomenal side. So when you are able to sit without being attached to any image or any sound with an open mind, that is true practice. So when you're able to sit without being attached to any image or idea or view or sound or whatever comes along, that is true practice. Even in the midst of all this stuff, to be settled in Buddha mind. So, when you can do that, you are free from everything.

[33:24]

Still, it's okay for you to enjoy your life moment after moment, because you are enjoying your life both momentarily, and it's both momentary and eternal. I had to reconstruct this sentence because I see that it didn't get printed right, because it says, because you are not enjoying your life as something concrete and eternal, which doesn't jive with what follows. And I realized when we edited this, that it didn't get edited quite right. So it's very tricky, very tricky, because does it mean not, or does it not mean not? I think it doesn't mean not, it doesn't work, so I'll just read it the way I structured it. Still, it is all right for you to enjoy your life moment after moment because you are enjoying your life as both momentary and eternal at the same time.

[34:34]

Our life is momentary and at the same time each moment includes its own past and future. So each moment is independent. And each moment, each activity has its dharma position. Dogen says, every moment's activity has its dharma position and can't be moved. One thing doesn't change into another, even though it appears that way. Spring does not become summer. Spring is spring, summer is summer, but spring includes past and present, past and future. Summer includes past and future, but one thing does not change into another. So each moment, each activity or life is in this dharma position which cannot be moved. And in that moment's dharma position, that is eternal life.

[35:38]

So each moment's activity is at the same time one moment of eternity. So our life is momentary and at the same time each moment includes its own past and future. In this way our momentary and eternal life will continue. This is how we actually lead our everyday life. How we enjoy our everyday life and how we have freedom from various difficulties. And then he talks about how he was sick in bed, and I remember that. He had a gallbladder operation. He was at Reed College giving a talk And then, after that, just before he got on the plane, he had a gallbladder attack.

[36:49]

It was very painful. And when he got back, he went to the hospital. So, I was sick in bed for a long time, and I was thinking about these things. I was just practicing Zazen in bed. I should enjoy being in bed laughing. Sometimes it was difficult, but when I laughed at myself, why is it so difficult? Why don't you enjoy your difficulties?" I think this is our practice. So, that's the one thing about Sukhi Roshi. He always encouraged us to enjoy our difficulties. He had a very difficult life himself. This is how he expresses his enlightenment. It's not like when you're enlightened you won't have any more difficulties.

[37:52]

When you finally become enlightened you may not like it. You should be very careful. We think we want to be enlightened, but when you're enlightened you will enjoy your difficulties. You will enjoy your gallbladder operation. So, let's see, I wrote a little something myself here. A little commentary. We are living at the crossroads of space and time. This moment of now is continuous and all of the effects of the past are included in it, as well as the seeds of the future, which will sprout according to the conditions which replace the events of the now, which we call the future.

[39:01]

So actually there is no such thing as the future. Future is just an idea that we have about what's next. But there is nothing out there that is a future. There's no object out there that is a future. It's simply, future exists in our mind. But we think that everything is just kind of going on and on. And it is kind of going on and on. There's no such thing as the future. The future is simply the present as it continues to appear. So there's no way we can jump into the future. We have an idea of what will happen in the future and we gear our activities to include what we call the future. but it's simply something that exists in our mind.

[40:10]

I've said this to people before, and some people just get very angry at me. But really, it's so. Future's just a projection. It's only the, what's happening now is all there is. And the past is memories. which exists in our mind. So both future and past exist in this moment. That's all we have is this moment. And we even think that time is going by, but that's only one way of thinking about time, because time is just a thought as well, just an idea. Even though the stars all move in certain patterns in time, so forth, it's still an idea that we have. Because everything is moving now.

[41:18]

There's nothing that's moving tomorrow. Or there's nothing that's happening five minutes from now. Really. Even though, you know, I'm going to stop in a minute, we'll all get up and bow and I'll go out, but it's really just all happening now. We have an idea that the bell's going to ring. Or it won't. Or whatever. But still, there's no future out there. We're creating the present, which becomes the present. And we call it the future. And we plan for it. Okay. So we know that what will happen in the now is in accordance with the way we want the future to be. And it's very interesting, this thing about time. Do you have any questions? Could you talk a little bit about the need to organize our activities in the present to plan for a future that doesn't exist?

[42:33]

Yes. Because we... In order to have a coherent present, we plan for our lives to fall into certain predictable patterns, so that we can handle the present as it unfolds. So, we create a menu for the week, and even though we don't stick to it, we still plan for it. We say, tomorrow we'll have da-da-da in the bowls and so forth. So we have to do that. But the prediction is for the present, even though it seems like it's for the future. Because the whole thing is geared toward what we will do in the present. We plan the menu in order to be able to eat now. Not in order to be able to eat tomorrow.

[43:35]

We say tomorrow, and we think that way. And we have to think that way, but we should know that there's no such thing as a future. There is such a thing as a future, and we talk about it, but it's an illusion that we create in order to operate in the present. It's a convenient way of putting order into our life when the present in the present, when the present arrives finally. What about something I consider a little bit more problematic, goals? What? Goals. Goals, yes. Well, we project our goals for the future, right? But it's really for the present, because we're not living in the future. The future doesn't come to us. It looks like We're either going into the future or the future is coming to us.

[44:38]

But it's just a way of thinking. Show me. Show me a future. It doesn't have to take you out of the present if you understand how to plan for the future. If you realize that The future is for what you will do in the present at a certain time. It's very tricky because we're so used to thinking that way that it's hard not to. But it's an interesting thing to think about because it's about thinking about reality. It's just hard to think about. Reality is really hard to think about, because we're so used to thinking in our delusion.

[45:41]

We create stories, and then we live them out. Everything is a story that we've created, and then we actualize and live out the story. So planning, we always plan. Plan for the future. When I grow up, I'm going to be da, da, da. And so we have a thought or a dream. We live in the dream world and then we actualize our dreams. But everything that's happening is happening now. And our planning for the future is a kind of dream. But, you know, it's fine to have a dream as long as we understand that we're dreaming. When you understand that you're dreaming, it's called enlightenment. Enlightenment is understanding what it is that you're doing. If we just, you know, take for granted that there's a future and we're dreaming, we're not understanding that there actually is no real future.

[46:55]

There's only projections for the present. And at some time, in the future. It's a convenient way to talk about this, that by saying, in the future, this will happen. But this happening is in the present. So it's a dream or an idea about what will happen now after these particular things that are happening now happen. Yes Yes, yes because within Stillness is the activity of movement

[48:01]

Stillness is the basis of movement. So within all the movement, everything is actually, everything is totally still. Is stillness like a particular way of thinking in relation to each other? Stillness is like Buddha. Movement is like momentariness. So within momentariness is Buddha. We will study a little bit about Vairochana, the pure dharmakaya. Pure dharmakaya is not something out there in the sky. Dharmakaya is our nature, which is always present. That's Buddha. Vairocana is personification of stillness, from which all activity not only emerges, but Vairocana doesn't go away when nirmanakaya appears.

[49:24]

Nirmanakaya is the expression of dharmakaya when in activity. We don't have much time, but okay. If you don't have much time, it might be kind of tough. We have all the time in the world. What's that again? You said something about how when there's wars and stuff, the rest of the universe doesn't really care. It's not that one doesn't care what happens. He said, whatever happens, you have to accept. But you said the rest of the universe doesn't really care. Oh, the rest of it, yeah. Mars doesn't care. So I think the rest of the universe doesn't care about that kind of stuff. I feel kind of pissed off at the rest of the universe. You should go up to Mars and take a leak.

[50:30]

That's kind of my attitude towards the rest of the universe sometimes. Well, no, it's human beings that take the burden on themselves. Yes, that's right. That's good. I mean, it's neither good nor bad, but it's what they do. It's not amazing. We just say it's amazing. Anyway, go ahead. Well, yeah, let me say, I just think it doesn't care. Maybe it does. What do I know?

[51:33]

But, you know, when we... It's an interesting thing because we're always looking outside of ourselves for the cause of our discomfort. And we should not find the cause of our discomfort outside of ourselves. That's a big problem. The human problem is that we look for the source of our discomfort outside of ourselves. I'm pissed off at the universe for not caring. Well, you know, you're looking for the source of your discomfort outside of yourself. I think, yeah, that's the best. We could have done a better job. I don't really think much about the universe, to tell you the truth.

[52:43]

I see all these people out there with their telescopes, and they're looking at it. And they say, hey, want to take a look? And I take a look. Oh, yeah, there's a big rock up there, you know. I'm not that interested in that, particularly. What I'm interested in is our human situation more. I know, I can see that. You're welcome. Well really, all you have to do is just practice.

[53:53]

The wonderful thing about practice is that you don't have to know anything. That's the wonderful thing about practice. You do not have to know anything. You can just enter this practice and be a complete dumbbell. Just do it. And in some way that's better. Because the mind, you know, is a big hindrance. As it says in the Heart Sutra, the mind is no hindrance in emptiness. But in form, you know, it's a big hindrance. So, you don't have to know anything. Just practice. But, if you want to know something, It's good to know what it is that we're dealing with here. When you enter practice without knowing anything, you just enter the realm of non-duality.

[54:59]

So, what's non-duality? The absolute and the relative without being dual. What's duality? Well, the absolute and the relative are two sides. That's duality. The oneness is the two sides are not dual. And at the same time, they are dual. They're two things that are one thing. And there's one thing that's two things. So it's neither one nor two. So we try to understand what it is that we're doing. You can practice without trying to understand what you're doing. That's OK. But if you want to understand what you're doing, Intellectually. And intellectually doesn't necessarily mean as a scholar. It simply means understand. Our intellect needs some food. It needs to understand. So we study this. What we feel is the reality. We try to understand it enough with our thinking mind so that we can explain it to ourselves.

[56:09]

to the point where we have some satisfaction, intellectually, knowing what we're doing. So, some people are intellectually oriented, and it makes it easy. Some people are not intellectually oriented, so it makes it difficult. But even if you are not intellectually oriented, It's a good thing to have an understanding of how this thing works. It's called our life. You have to speak a little louder because maybe I don't hear all your words. And those things don't bother me.

[57:16]

When big things happen in my life, it's all the way important. But when I'm going along, so it's not even, I don't really feel like I'm pulling in front of anyone. It's more of a frustration. Right. Well, it helps, you know, when, in the realm of practice, if we see everything we do as practice, then when we have an emotional response that comes up we can see how do I practice with this rather than being overwhelmed by this feeling and if we address all of that to something has come up and get some distance from it we can see how it comes up then it's not we have the opportunity to not be caught by it and we can be more rational about and see how it's affecting our life or what it is that brings this up and what we can do about it.

[58:33]

Does that make sense? It cannot be defined. It simply means your actual activity. It's like, in a sense, it's like the piano. People say, well, practice is not like playing scales on the piano, but in a sense it is. The Gencho Koan, Dogen says, To study the Buddha way is to study the Self. So they use the word study in the translation, but actually it's not what it means. There's a character which I don't know the character exactly, but it's to practice the way is to practice the Self.

[59:41]

To practice the way is to practice the Self. To study the Dharma is to study the Self. To study the Buddha way is to study the Self. To study the Buddha way is to practice the Self. In other words, to engage the Self, rather than just study. Because the word study means you open a book and study about yourself. That's not study, what it means. to study the Buddha way is to practice the Self. So it means to engage in the practice, to engage in the activity of Buddha Dharma. It doesn't mean doing something over and over again, like practicing scales. It's like doing something over and over and over again.

[60:45]

until you are so tired of it that you get enlightened. So it really means doing something over and over, over and over again, until you don't really have to... it becomes part of you. So we say you practice through your... what you get through practice comes through your pores, But I don't know if I can define practice. You know what it is, anyway. And we say it over and over. I do wish we had another word. And I've thought of, well, what other word can we use? But nothing ever works. Somehow, just nothing ever works. So if you can come up with something, you can present it.

[61:46]

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