So good morning, everyone. Linda, thank you for inviting me to do this talk. My name is Ellen Webb. Yeah, it kind of came off my ear. How about that? How about that? Is that good? Okay. Okay. So can I turn the volume up a little? No. Shout it out. Shout it out. Okay. My name is Ellen Webb and I've been sort of present here for about 24 years.

[01:00]

And I just want to say, and I don't tell people my Dharma name because I just don't, but I'm going to say today, which is Maiko Kashin, which is translated as Open Heart. And people sometimes say that the first name, so that would be Dancing Light, is sort of descriptive. And then the second name is kind of aspirational, like it's kind of something your teacher thinks you should be aiming at or something. And I only say it today because it actually relates to this talk quite a bit. So I want to welcome everyone and ask if you're new to the Berkeley Zen Center today.

[02:09]

Thank you for being here. And I've been myself reflecting on when I first started practicing. I had actually been to this Zen Center I told many people this, that my mother was a member of this Zen center. And I lived in Paris for a while and went to a Zen center there. I lived in New York for a while. It was kind of au courant to go to Zen centers. But there was nothing that I really wanted at that time. And so I didn't continue. And then... I moved back to the Bay Area from Paris and New York. I'd grown up here, and my parents lived here, and my siblings lived here.

[03:13]

And I was a dancer, and I had a dance company here, and I was working on a big production, probably 15 dancers and art musicians and so on. And... I had two little children, sort of two years old and six years old. And my parents were here, and my father was ill. And so at that time, I was like... When I was at my rehearsals, I was thinking about, maybe I should be with my children. or my father or my mother who was trying to take care of my father. And when I was with my children, I was thinking I should be in my dance production or with my parents. And when I was with my parents, I was thinking I should always be somewhere else.

[04:15]

So then just before this big production went up, started kind of actively dying. And this wasn't like a shock. And he was very kind of comfortable with dying. He was a big hiker and backpacker. Spent a lot of time as a hunter. And somehow... He was just okay. He was younger than I am now, actually, but he was sort of okay with this, and it kind of let everybody be sort of okay with it. Oh, and then also, right at that moment, somebody broke into our studio in Portland three nights in a row and robbed it. And so my husband was kind of trying to deal with that while all this was going on, and he was also quite involved in this big production.

[05:17]

But when I got the call, so I was like, you know, everywhere with my mind and, you know, keep it together. But when I got the call that my father was dying, you know, it sort of was simple. I was going to his house to be with him. So I called one of the dance company. And I said, would you come take care of my children? My father's dying. And she said, sure. And then she said, what can I bring so that your two-year-old won't mind you leaving right at bedtime? And I said, nail polish. She said, okay, I'll be there in 20 minutes. I'll stop at the drugstore. So she came, and I left, and my kids were all getting manicures. And I went and, you know, sat with my father while he died.

[06:22]

But my experience, you know, if you've ever sat through that, and I know many of you have, it's a very intense situation. My mother was there, my sister was there, my brother was probably there, I can't quite remember. And my father was doing that. people do when they're dying, so it was really clear what was happening. But even though I was sad, I also felt this relief and sort of joy that I was right where I wanted to be without any question. And it was just sort of a wake-up for me. It was like, yes. My father did die, and my dance production went up three days later.

[07:24]

That kind of was so powerful for me. And I guess the other side of it was that, you know, he died. And I was kind of the next one on the diving board, so to speak. You know, I was going to do that too. And I didn't want to live life. which I felt like when I was here thinking about there and there thinking about here, I was never there. There was no there for me. So, and this is kind of the magic of life. About two months later, the garden dance studio, who some of you may know, her name is Sachio. Does anybody know her? Yeah. She said to me, Ellen, there's this special, extraordinary Zen teacher who is coming.

[08:25]

They go four times a year to lead sessions, and you should go meet her. So I did, and she was teaching at a house in Oakland not too far from mine. And so when I met her and sort of talked about it, I knew that she had some understanding of what I was looking for. She sort of embodied it in some way that I could not have expressed at the time, and she talked about it. So I studied with her, Joko Beck, for several years before she... Retired back to staying in San Diego. But I went, I knew I was looking for something by that time.

[09:27]

And I couldn't name it, but I think most of us do come looking for something. It would be odd not to. I'm sure some people just come. I think people have told me that and say, but... Mostly we want something. I don't know, peace or clarity or sort of a quieter mind, presence, connection with people, enlightenment. You know, people want that. A relief from suffering. So I knew I wanted something. I couldn't really name it. But when I look back, and that was more than 24 years ago, it was about 34 years ago, I will say that really, ironically, mostly what I've done is give up stuff.

[10:31]

You know, I thought I was going to get something, but really I've sort of just given up stuff. And again, I don't really, at that time I wouldn't have had language for what it was, but I think probably the one word you could say, my attachments. And, you know, at that time, I just was starting to uncover them a little bit. And, you know, it's the attachments we have to who I believe I believed I was. And the thought of not telling you I was a dancer and not thinking of myself as a dancer would have I would have been, like, completely lost and terrified, really. You know, so my story, my self-image, the roles that I was playing, being a mother, doing a good job, all those things that I was up to. And this was all quite a slow process.

[11:40]

Yeah. It makes me think our founding abbot, that's the way to describe him, Sojin Roshi wrote a book in the last years of his life. It was a memoir, and it was also a kind of collection of his talks. And the title is Doing One Thing Through. But one of the proposed titles was something like the grindstone or the old grindstone or something I can't quite remember. And frankly, I like that title because it has sort of felt like that kind of gradual working away of stuff for me. Which is not to say that Probably 99% of those attachments aren't lurking around somewhere.

[12:47]

But my feeling is that they've kind of released their grip on me somewhat, and I've maybe released my grip on them somewhat. And I have a little space from them, a little freedom. So I've used the word let go. Dogen, who we've been studying, he's a 13th century Zen, would say to forget the self. So this is a quote from the Genjo Koan, which we've studied recently. To study the Buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized or verified by the myriad things.

[13:51]

I think forget the self is probably better so we don't get all mixed up with the big self and the small self and the big mind and so on. I'm going to stick with letting go. So I'm just going to say here that I think all of us know, and I certainly know that and believe that we are all completely interconnected with everything. And, you know, science has even confirmed that now. So it's common knowledge. We are one, all of us. But I, and I think most of us, experience ourselves as separate. And, you know, I'm the subject, you're the object. And, you know, even though we know this isn't true, it's really true for most of us.

[14:58]

And, you know, in some ways that's a really great thing because we take care of ourselves. We feed it. We buy clothes for it. We, I don't know, sort of save for retirement for it. And, you know, just in the most simple sense, and I've used this before, but with a bus, you're kind of in trouble because you might end up really being one with a bus. So, you know, what does it mean to study the self? To really look at this relationship between, you know, the self and this understanding part of a whole. And I would say that it starts with, and it started for me, with watching my body and my mind.

[16:00]

And, you know, that's kind of the beginning of seeing ourself. And, you know, our thoughts and feelings encompass our beliefs, our opinions, our shoulds, our stories, just all of it, our judgments. So we begin to observe them, but we observe them almost like they don't belong to us. We kind of separate ourselves from them, and we don't hold on to them. So we let go of it. We don't run with it, so to speak. And we come back to our kind of pure perception, so the feeling of our breath, our body, maybe in the room or outside of the room.

[17:09]

And it's not like we suppress our thoughts, but we just let them go. We take away their power in a certain way. So an example of this might be, for me, You know, I might hear something like a fire engine and I think, have the thought, fire engine. And then I might keep going with that, like, I wonder where the fire is. Or maybe it's somebody needing an EM. You know, it just kind of goes like that. And then I let go of it and come back. It might be a sensation. You know, my foot itches. And then I would be like... Hmm, itch, my foot itches.

[18:13]

Have I been around poison oak recently? Maybe have a mosquito bite, you know, and then again, letting go of that and just coming back to my breath or my body. The hardest ones for me are the feelings in my body. The feelings like clenching of my solar plexus or... you know, tightening of my chest or my throat. It's hard for me not to kind of look at those as, well, maybe that's anger. And yes, I am angry at, you know, and then I go with that, like she did that to me and, you know, so on and so on. There's a reason for this. And then to come back to just the sensation is really tricky. It's hard. to allow just the feeling to be there. But when we let go of our thought, and it could really be a long time.

[19:22]

It could be half an hour or a quarter an hour that we're just letting go into another. But when we let go of it and come back to our breath, Joko has this saying, she said, That letting go and coming back is the potent moment. That moment. And even if it takes a long time, it's that moment. And coming back. And this is probably not, I mean, this sounds a little aggressive, but I sometimes feel like I'm winning. That I'm winning. I'm not run by my thoughts in the way that I have been for a lot of my life. So, I'm going to read a little something that somebody sent me, I think in an email.

[20:24]

I don't remember who sent it, so I can't tell you who wrote it, and if you know, you can tell me. Your job is to use yourself in a way that that the mind stops taking form. A big part of your training, what they have called ox, is to inhibit the mind from taking form so much so that your mind is formless. We have to trust in that perfect, unadorned perception. That very mind that wants to control things is the mind that's caught up to begin with. We are caught up. you have less possibilities. If you let your mind take form, it becomes localized and interferes with spaciousness. As soon as you catch yourself in return, you come back to the formless state. So I think one more thing that I'll say about that is that something I got,

[21:36]

out of this was when I stayed with my body, I began to know where I belong. And I stopped being so lost in where I should be and where my mind thought I should be. And that is really a gift. So I just want to say how much I appreciate that. And also when I was where I was, I could... Take it in and open myself to, as Dogen says, the myriad things. So I'm going to give you just a couple of examples from my life. When I first started practicing, or sometime in the 90s maybe, or a little later, a lot of Zen teachers were talking about our story and letting go of our story.

[22:44]

I don't hear about that so much anymore, but that was really popular at one time. Part of my story was that I was a middle child. I had an older sister and a younger brother. And for whatever reason, my parents let me as a happy, easy child in the family. And, you know, that's not the worst thing in the world, but I kind of took that as my story. And I went along in life really believing that I was incorporating incorporating that into myself. And, you know, there were some really significant tragedies in my life, people very close to me who died, young people. And I didn't have... I was a happy, easy child.

[23:50]

And quite honestly, I did not... in any way open up to that until I literally sat down on my cushion. And when I did that, and really pretty much I realized, I'm not happy. I'm actually depressed. And I'm sad. And, you know, that doesn't sound great, but it was so liberating. I just felt so liberated by that. And I just want to say here, people are told Children are told awful things. They're told they're a problem, that they're not wanted, that they're not loved. So I just want to acknowledge that, but this is probably not the worst thing you could get told. But, you know, you might say, well, why do you want that? Why do you want that, those darker feelings?

[24:56]

You know, it's like an orchestra. Like I was just hearing the flutes and the high notes. And I really wanted to hear all of it. And I wanted to hear those dark tones. And again, the myriad things. So that's one thing. Another one is that when I was about 12 or 13, I remember this so clearly, I was sitting in a group of adults and older teenagers, all of whom I liked. They were all relatives of mine. And, you know, arguing and stuff. And I don't remember the subject. But at a certain point, you know, I realized... that I had no opinions. And they weren't asking me what my opinions were, but I just realized I didn't have any.

[26:04]

And that I'd been kind of a kid. I just sort of, I had an older sister. I kind of followed her around. I had a cousin that I just adored. I followed her around. I went to school. I had friends. But, you know, I just didn't have any opinions. And in that setting, I suddenly realized I felt very vulnerable without them. I really felt like I was naked. And, you know, I didn't have any opinions about music. You know, at that time it was kind of uncool not to have any opinions about music. And I didn't have any opinions about drugs or sex or alcohol. And I distinctly remember thinking to myself, I need to get some opinions. And, you know, I did. And, you know, I got some good ones, and I got some not-so-good ones. I felt protected by them.

[27:09]

And so, you know, that's been an unpeeling for me. And it's not like I've given them all up. Again, they're still with me, some of them, not all. But, you know, I have some space from them. And, again, it's a kind of freedom. I'm not so armored. And I think I haven't talked too much about Stahikin today, but I go to a place in western Washington quite often where the general population of about 100 people is extremely, religious and very conservative. And I spend a lot of time there. And I have a lot of friends there. And I am close to many people who have such opposite opinions from mine that you probably can't imagine, really.

[28:16]

And people often say to me, how could you be friends with those people? But it's not really. for me. You know, I hold all our stuff sort of lightly, almost always. Occasionally I'm plugged in, but not too often. And I have, like I say, very close friendships. So I'm going to make a pivot here. I will say that I'm going to talk about something that I've talked about before, maybe a year or two ago. When we all went out in the courtyard, somebody came up to me and said, that talk was very woo-woo. So I'm just saying, prepare yourself.

[29:17]

Sort of a trigger warning, right? about this actually in her way-seeking brain talk a few weeks ago. But I had talked about it and had this experience that when our former abbot, Alan Hozon Sanaki, got sick, he was in the hospital in a coma. And I'd known Alan for a long time, and I was not close, close with him, but I liked him. And I really felt he liked and really supported me. And over the years of our friendship, he had things that bugged me, that hurt my feelings, or, you know, I felt sort of upset about. And I carried that with me. And yet, when I went into his hospital room and he was...

[30:25]

every tube and monitor and just every connection you can imagine, so many. I just felt this complete rush of absolute love for him. I was shocked by it. I was so surprised. I was actually in tears. I've told that story several times, and when I told it to Ryushin, she told me a story sort of similar in some ways about someone who was at a funeral. I won't mention her name, but this was many years ago, and the person who had died was Maylee Scott, who was a really beloved and revered member of our sangha. But I can sort of imagine edging each other a little.

[31:28]

They were both strong personalities, and I was not at this funeral, but Sojin officiated, and I have been to those funerals. This was at Green Gulch Farm. They're very elaborate, and they're very complex, and there's fire and fire in them, so it's kind of a big deal. And Sojin was offering to answer questions afterwards. I think about the ceremony, I imagine, but somebody, right? Somebody asked him this question, which was something like, why are you troubled by her mainly anymore? And Sojin's answer was, because she's not in the way anymore. So this kind of reminds me of like when a baby is born, you know, that like, just feeling it. I mean, I've been to a lot of people when a baby was born, and even people like my father, who was super macho, and my brother, who followed in his footsteps.

[32:34]

I mean, this rush of love for this little, undefined being is overwhelming. It's just so precious. But it makes me question, you know, in these circumstances, Well, particularly with adults, maybe. You know, what is it in us? I mean, they're not there, so to speak, but what is it in us that we can look at that we can... What stops me? You know, what is it that stops me when, you know, somebody's ignored me or criticized me or hurt my feelings, you know, eight months ago? Or, you know, what stops me from, you know, being open? or being completely open. So I'm going to tell one more little story.

[33:35]

And that one took place in this very room. And Sojin was speaking. He was talking about something Zen, like emptiness or... I don't know, duality or I don't know what. I really don't remember it all. But serious, you know, and so on. And at that point, I don't remember, I really don't remember people talking about it very much. It's actually happened more since then and more recently. I remember, Greg, when you said you loved Zazen, I was like, really? Really? But at that time, I just don't remember hearing the word very much. Anyway, so Sojin was giving this very, you know, whatever, complicated talk. And somebody, and I don't remember who it was, and I don't think it's somebody who's been around since then, but you can correct me if I'm wrong, raised her hand and said, completely unrelated to what he was talking about, she said,

[34:50]

how can we never talk about love here? And I was just like, what? What kind of question is that? And Sojin did not miss a beat. He immediately said, it's all we ever talk about. And again, I was like dumbfounded, but it's been a koan for me. ever since, and I hand it to you. We'll end by reading the encouraging words of Suzuki Roshi from Zen Mind Beginner's Mind. The purpose of studying Buddhism is to study ourselves and forget ourselves. We are the true activity of the big existence, of reality itself.

[35:54]

When we realize this fact, there is no problem whatsoever in this world, and we can enjoy our lives without feeling any difficulties. The purpose of practice is to be aware of this fact. So I am going to stop there. And you can ask me questions or make a comment. Tell your own story. Thank you all. I think it is.

[37:03]

I can hear it pretty well. Now I think it's on more than it was before. At the beginning of your talk, you said that you weren't looking for anything. You didn't want anything. You were an adult, but you weren't looking for a practice because you said, I had everything I needed. And I was very struck by that as if And then I thought, well, great. Why didn't you just stop there? And so I kind of wondered what changed or why did something happen that made you realize that you didn't actually have everything you needed or wanted? It's related to something you said more recently when you said about opinions. You realized you didn't have any opinions. And... and that you needed some opinions, and then you spoke of the opinions as kind of an obstacle, and you had to let go of them and get in the way of things.

[38:07]

So anyway, my question is a little bit vague maybe, but is the feeling that you'd had everything you wanted related to the feeling that you didn't have any opinions, and why do either of those things need to be changed? Well, I sort of have... I'm not sure it's quite an answer to your question. I do feel like before I got my opinions, I was kind of in a flow state. I actually feel that way. It really was kind of... When I think about my childhood, it does speak to it. But in terms of not wanting anything in the... later years before I came to practice or before I decided I wanted something, I think I just didn't know. You know, I mean, I thought, or I thought I could, you know, I was holding a life. You know, I was, you know, I got married.

[39:10]

I bought a house. I had, you know, I had a, I was dancing. You know, I, I, I was thought I could do it without any help. So I think that's probably, I mean, that's what I was taught, you know, that you, And then maybe you realized yourself that you couldn't just do that all by yourself. Right. Or I was unhappy. Thank you. Thank you. Helpful. I just grabbed the mic because I was just about the opinions matter. Well, you said that you live among these... people who are very conservative and who are very different from you, and you have no problem just relating to them and being friends, right? Right. So when I'm with people who have opinions or views that are really, really different or values, I translate those...

[40:16]

into actions. They seem to me to translate right into violent, cruel actions. I can't stop thinking that. I have a problem of really relating happily to them. Does that problem not arise for you? I don't think it quite arises. Because my feeling is... And I'm in maybe more intimate relationships, but the only thing I can really do about it is to share myself. And, you know, I can't, like, stop them from, I don't know, killing animals. That's what they do. But...

[41:16]

I can share myself with them. And I can build relationships. And, you know, there's some things we do not talk about. We do not talk about the fact that they think I should take Invectrum when I have COVID. And they really think that. So we don't talk about that. But, you know, I did tell them about the woman who the immigrant, the illegal immigrant who took care of my mother, Alzheimer's for eight years. And that kind of wears them down just a little. I can see that, oh, that's a beautiful thing, even though they don't like immigrants. Thank you, Ellen. You asked a question at the end of your talk, which I was hoping to get an answer for. which was what stops us from having that open heart as when a baby is born?

[42:25]

Well, for myself, the only answer I can really give is I just have to watch it. It's like almost humorous, you know? So, you know, Sue... Really? That's going to stop me from loving her? You know, I mean, I'm not saying that you, but... Oh, God. I knew whoever I spoke to about would... But, you know, it's just so ridiculous. You know, it's like a joke, who we are. I think there's somebody back there. Psych, I'm up here. Thank you for your talk, Ellen. I really loved it.

[43:32]

It really touched my heart. I think I'll just ask you, I loved you brought up the original title for Sojin's book because I also, when I learned the original title, I felt something, and I'm curious to hear you say what you think about the grinding stone. Like, what is it we're grinding away? Yeah, what are we grinding? Well, you know, in on the discussion about which title to use, so I think people felt like it was... I'm just saying this. You're not really asking this, but I think people felt like it was kind of harsh or, Liz, you would know better, but kind of too sort of mean sounding maybe. But... You know, again, the word attachment comes up for me.

[44:40]

It's the... It's the grip that stuff has on us. It's just a loosening of that. I'll just say, because I just heard this recently, that I always thought water wore away stone. But actually, water doesn't wear away stone. It's only when the water... has sediment in it or silt in it that it wears away stone. The water itself doesn't. So that's just a fact. Thank you. I guess if I was in those meetings, I would have said, yeah, life is harsh. Yeah, maybe. I mean, I like that title too. I would have used it. Is there anybody on Zoom?

[45:44]

Got to raise your digital hand if you want to be seen. You know, I can't quite hear you. You have to hold it like, I don't know what. A hot dog, somebody said. Can you hear me now? Hello? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, thank you for your talk. I was very moved by the way you spoke about being with your father when he was dying. My father died last August. I'm sorry. And thank you. But being with him was like the greatest teaching on presence I've ever had. There was so much just chaos and intensity around him. And I had been practicing for a period of time before then and just being able to be with him in that way. I don't think that's why I came to practice. I had that experience. It's a big part of why I keep practicing because it was such a gift.

[46:51]

And yeah, I just wouldn't have ever wanted to have missed that opportunity and don't want to miss any that might come in the future. So thank you for reminding me of that. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you, Ellen, for your profound talk. And thank you for your rhythm and tone. It's really soothing. You just bringing up a kind of fact that I had no idea that water wasn't the cause of stone erosion, but that little tiny pieces of stones on the bigger stone, the sediment erodes. And it made me think of our thoughts because you mentioned mind. You brought that up. And it made me think that our thoughts are like those small stones and our mind is the bigger rock.

[47:53]

And then I'll have to say it's kind of more of a comment than a question. I'll try to spin a question out of it. I always water for being the eroding factor. But water is like, you mentioned the flow state. Like Buddha can be the water. And if it's free of sediment, then our larger mind, the stone, isn't worn down and sapping our energy and our purpose to wake up. Nice. Very nice. Thank you. Thank you for bringing it. Appreciate you. All of you, Sangha. Rich, maybe first. Oh, sorry, Helen.

[48:57]

Thanks, Ellen. I really appreciated your talk. It was really heartwarming. I feel like I got a different glimpse into you, and I really liked it a lot. You talked about body practice in a way. The way you see one thing through is by coming according with your body. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit. Body practice, we talk about body practice sometimes in Zen, and it's not something that really resonates for me. But it's been like sort of hovering over here, like maybe I need to turn towards that. So I'd love to just hear you say more about that. Well, part of me wants to say, what else is there, Rich? I mean, you're a dancer, right? You're a dancer. Like you are in a way. Well, I do think it's maybe been easier for me than for some people. But, I mean, a lot, I mean, you know how I talked about being happy and easy?

[50:24]

You know, shut down part of my experience. But I think for many people, and there's a million reasons why, and probably very reasonable reasons, they've shut down the feelings in their body. And I think it's like a, dare I use the word practice? It is a practice. And it's not a very, again, it's sort of slow, I think, for a lot of people. You know, because for a lot of people, there's like nothing there. But actually, tension to it, some, and I could be wrong. Maybe there's some people that it never opens up. I think it will for you. Thanks.

[51:38]

Thank you so much. is on. I can hear you. Thank you so much for this talk. I really appreciated the levity and the energy. It felt very sweet. I spend a good amount of time with beloved people in my life who hold that I find hateful and not respectful of other people's autonomy or personhood. And I have some belief that the reason that people is because of their deeply seated trauma and selfishness based on past experiences and yada yada. And I try and hold a lot of empathy for what their experiences were that led them to that place.

[52:42]

And then I... take a step back and I'm like, wow, am I being stupid to them by not, by being like, oh, well, I'm so much wiser because I am not happy, you know, and you're just too silly and you're just too wrapped up in your own trauma to be able to understand that maybe you shouldn't be an asshole to people. And I'm just, yeah, and I, and so I kind of go back and forth in this balance of like empathy, And not wanting to be condescending to people and thinking they can't understand or something. And yeah, I'm really wondering how that lands for you. And I don't know if that's a question, but it's a, yeah, how does it... It's just great. Really, I mean that. You know, that's what we're doing. We're watching, you know. And of course you condescend to them. So do I. But... you know, you also have empathy for them.

[53:45]

And it will change, you know. It will change. I don't know how it will change or what it will change to, but it doesn't stay the same. So I think that's it, right?

[54:08]

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