Good evening, everyone. Welcome to the Berkeley Zen Center. Thank you for joining us here in the Zendo and to everyone who's online. I'm very happy to introduce Jiryu Rushman-Beiler this evening, the abbot of Green... received Dharma transmission from Sojin Mel Weissman-Roshi, our late abbot, and Also the elder brother of our own Hondo Dave Rushman. And so Jiryu helped with Sojin Roshi, this new Suzuki Roshi book, Becoming Yourself. And thank you so much, Jiryu, for coming this evening. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, friends. For coming to my party. For the record, I am senior to Reverend Hondo, but he is my elder brother.

[01:11]

My big brother, my big brother. Sorry. Wonderful and mysterious and deep. I never practiced here. Exactly, but I would come around a lot to meet with Mel. I think I've never given a talk here before. And it's wonderful to be here. it feels rather formal. And the feeling of formality is good. And also we can be informal together.

[02:13]

Like with Mel, you know, in my experience at least, it didn't seem to change much, you know, whether it was a formal Dharma talk or Scone Hinge. The same person, just a person who had become himself, you know? Suzuki Roshi says, when you just become yourself as thoroughly as the stone is a stone, then you include everything. And then you can practice our way and the Bodhisattva precepts are right there. So what a wonderful embodiment of that. And our friend Mel. Did most of you know Mel? Some people nowadays don't know Mel. Some of you know Mel. So you know what I mean. He says, you know, when you're not completely yourself, include everything.

[03:40]

But when you are completely yourself, then everything is included. And the Bodhisattva precepts are there. So I just want to say a little bit, you know, we have a few minutes together. We don't need to... to spend all night here, but we could. Because this new book is awesome. And each line, you know, the other day I was mentioning, I was remembering this project. I think I did a project for the 50th year Zen Mind Beginner's Mind with these Xerox copies of people's annotations. So she got together just, you know, bring me your your Zen mind, beginner's mind copy and she just flipped through for a nice kind of annotated, highlighted, sort of torn up page and she zero, you know, copied a bunch of them and they were up and just everybody's finding different minds, you know, and furiously scrambling the thing that they see in that moment, I get it, I gotta write it down.

[04:55]

And so then put that on the wall, everybody's little notes. And that each of the lines of Suzuki Roshi's teaching is just actually so simple and clear and bottomless and, you know, always ready to absorb new insight or to offer new insights. Really any of these, that's my experience of coming back again and again to these words and these words in this book, which I've been really part of, this is also kind of like maybe it's an introduction of the book to some of you, and for me it's like, finally, you know, out of my life, launch it out of my life, leave home, it's time to leave home. And even though I have spent so much time, you know, so with Mel, Mel invited me in 2018,

[05:58]

to work on this with him. It's really one of the great privileges of my life, actually, to work with Mel side by side on this book. I was so honored to be invited. I think it was mostly because I'm good with spreadsheets and I can scan documents and keep a project on track. I think that Mel had started, but kind of was having trouble keeping the project on track. And Ed Sadezan, our San Francisco Zen Center, Abed at the time, said, you know, why don't you invite Jiryu? He's good with French. So that was my friend. So we worked, you know. Mel had these folders of these talks that he had returned to over the years, and I think I was hoping to maybe read a few passages, and some of you who've been around probably heard him talking, you know. maybe a few times about some of these favorites from Suzuki Roshi that he loved, but that haven't yet appeared in the books.

[07:06]

So we would sit down together, often over here, to be back in his office. sitting outside this evening, still waiting for Doka-san. That's the best moment, waiting for Doka-san. It never lives up to that. So that's part of the gift now of Mel and maybe Suzuki Roshi too. We get to just wait for Doka-san. But it's so precious to spend that time with him. just working over these lines, you know. He had some that maybe that Mel had worked on for Winbells or Berkeley Sun Center Newsletters, and then there were times when we wanted to kind of go into the transcript archive, just incredible resource of Suzuki Roshi's teaching, you know, that has been preserved, and it wouldn't have had to have been preserved.

[08:16]

It was Marian Derby and, you know, we could record this, like, once in a generation sort of moment that's happening here, we could press record and actually preserve these teachings of Suzuki Roshi. So I feel her presence and insight. And then these so many people, you know, caring for these recordings, making the recordings, transcribing the recordings. So anyway, with Mel, some of these pieces that Mel had already kind of worked on, and then some new pieces that we've archived for. And some of it, you know, if you've read the Suzuki Roshi archive, since the editor, you know, when I first said, I have this book of Suzuki Roshi, but, you know, everything Suzuki Roshi ever wrote is just online for free on multiple websites, you know? It's like, what's our market here?

[09:18]

But... You know, fortunately for the publisher, it's almost, it's very hard to read. It's very hard to read that you say, I want to, you know, you go to the transcript archive, you can find real treasures in there, but you have to work for them. You have to mine into that mountain. And so they're not so easy. The Suzuki Roshi's very present kind of back and forth with the people in the room and his kind of meandering and the limitation of his English, it's not so easy really to polish. Mel had this obviously deep affinity and understanding of Suzuki Roshi's teachings and was able to sort of bring out the light of what Suzuki Roshi meant to say and was confident enough and fearless enough to say no.

[10:21]

Anyway, really precious to work with Mel on this. And then Mel died. And we really worked on this quite up close to the end. He was still doodling away on this project. And then after he died, you know, I wasn't sure what to do because it seemed like the book still needed some work. I don't know if he thought so, but I thought so. And then Hozan, Hozan Allen was a really huge support in this process. So just being here and in this place of Sojin and Hozan helped me to really invited me to

[11:25]

to take the space and to say, you know, this is on me now, this project is mine now, it's in my hands now, and I can kind of do what I think it needs to get it to where it should go. You know, with Suzuki Roshi forgiving me and Sojin forgiving me, both of them, you know, it seems to me, had a very clear and simple way, and I have kind of like a convoluted, sort of complicated way. So it was maybe a little too simple. But with Hozan's support, I was able to add some other pieces and organize things around to bring out what was a really important theme for Sojin. So maybe I'll say a little bit about that. But first, maybe just to acknowledge some other supporters.

[12:29]

You know, the beautiful cover of this book. Let me honor a cause to see you here. Thank you for coming, and thank you for offering your to this cover. You know, the publisher had kind of drafted something, but they didn't really know Suzuki Roshi or our way, and so they had drafted some cool designs, a few cool designs that seemed like, yeah, that could be cover of a book, and it seemed fine with me, and so I sent it to some people who were involved, and everybody mostly thought it was good enough, but Ozan says, it's terrible, that's a terrible, that's a terrible cover, which was, like, inconvenient. Dana Veldin at San Francisco Center also had the same cover, it doesn't feel like our way. And it didn't. It was a fine cover, you know? I liked it. Again, I just kind of wanted to get it over with.

[13:33]

And then we said, well, what expresses our way? And of course, it's Kaas' work. And so it seemed like almost impossible that we could be supported to use Kaas' work on the cover, but there was generosity. were and and really just so happy this is um enjoy is that right enjoy enjoy being yourself the the not really being yourself is not so enjoyable fundamentally what a relief what a relief to just be who you are thoroughly, completely, and naturally appreciate that everything is included in that, and then just live in that way, live from there, together with everyone. So, also I know Lori couldn't be here tonight.

[14:38]

Oh, hello. I'm here. Hello. You made it. A bunch of people couldn't be here tonight. Thank you for your support in this project. You similarly said, you know, it's not so good. That your editing, you know, really showed me that it wasn't ready. It wasn't cooked. So again, it's like, are you sure? Couldn't, isn't it good enough? So that kind of support to say, no, it's not. The jewel is in there, but it needs more polishing, so thank you. And then, Liz, thank you over the years for all of your support and your support of this project. Very humbling and incredible to be in a seat trying to say something about Suzuki Roshi and Sojin, so thank you.

[15:47]

And then, so on Tuesday, I'm gonna say what the book's about, but it's about the bodhisattva precepts. But that's kind of a secret because the editor says nobody knows what that means. Could you just not use the word precepts? Because nobody knows what that means. The thing is, it's a book about the bodhisattva precepts. And then I thought, yeah, I never knew what the word precepts, I don't think I had ever heard that word really before coming into Zen, you know, it's kind of an unusual word. So for those of us who are sort of in the bubble, you know, precepts, we know what we mean. So there's kind of the precepts, the ethical direction, the way that we are together with others. So, you know, Mel had these talks that he'd always, you know, come back to.

[16:58]

And then he also had the clear idea of bringing out for all of us Suzuki Roshi's teaching on the Bodhisattva precepts, on precepts. Very deep and kind of unusual. And the Zen students needed to know how Suzuki Roshi saw the precepts. And he needed me to know as well. So kind of the second half of the book is about the precepts. The first half is sort of general talks, kind of like not always so or in my beginner's mind. And then the second half is about the precepts. Coyote, also deeply supportive of the project by narrating the audiobook.

[18:05]

So it was a beautiful audiobook. I just got the chance to listen to parts of it on Tuesday when the book launched, and Peter did a really wonderful... At the end of the audiobook, so... Along with Sojin's confidence and fearlessness in editing was this wish that I had to make people know that this isn't edited. This is not Suzuki Roshi's words exactly. This is edited. And so in the back of the book, there's a section that points people to the... relevant talk of Suzuki Roshi's that we drew this chapter from. So that if somebody likes the chapter or doesn't like the chapter, then, you know, you could go, look, what does he actually say?

[19:09]

I'm not saying that we got it right. I'm just saying if this kind of, maybe, what's your appetite for Suzuki Roshi's words? And so then we thought for the audio, do something similar. And for some of the chapters have some clips of the original audio of Suzuki Roshi, and they've been really well done now. by Charlie Wilson and the Engage Wisdom team, they've triple remastered the Suzuki Roshi. You're used to barely being able to hear it, but it's very clear and bright. Half an hour at the end of the audiobook that's kind of, here's what Peter Coyote just read the edited version of, and now here's how Suzuki Roshi. And what do you feel in Suzuki Roshi is the joy and the ease and the laughter. So it's wonderful also. to listen and it was just very moving for me to hear Peter and Suzuki Roshi on Tuesday. Thanks for listening.

[20:12]

And then on Wednesday, this is my week, so on Wednesday, so I live at Green Gold's Farm, Green Dragon Temple over in Marin County, one of the temples associated with San Francisco Zen Center, founded right after Suzuki Roshi died. As some of you know, Enjin Roshi and Adrian Roshi, Rev and Linda, both kind of early students at San Francisco Zen Center and really really important and teachers in our lineage who lived at Green Gulch for many years. Linda was after five people who moved to Green Gulch in, I guess, 1972. And on Wednesday morning, we had a departing ceremony for Reb and Linda and Steve Weintraub and Rusa Chu.

[21:18]

So yeah, it's been kind of a week. Thank you for your support. This feeling that this kind of, and this was not planned, you know, this is just the magic of our being alive together with everything. So that this Ling, and it's the magic, it's the flowering for millennia, you know, to feel this little flower, you know, humble as it is, that this, sort of blossoms, right, as this other, as these elders who've been carrying this tradition so beautifully are stepping away, and that there's a in this book, it's the first in over 20 years, and to just feel like there is life, there's life in the lineage. And the teaching of Suzuki Roshi is like just as resonant and relevant. The teaching of our way really is not about like You know, it's really not.

[22:22]

It's about being a human being in a true and deep and real way to do it to everything. Maybe could I read a little bit from the book? Does anybody want to say anything before I do? I know that Mel really appreciated dogs. I don't know if he disliked cats. He did not dislike cats.

[23:24]

He didn't dislike cats. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I was thinking, what are the ones, you know, of these chapters that to me were like the most, kind of, that Mel was the most... Anyway, that landed for me as, oh, Mel really liked this one. And he really liked this one about cats. So, and I think it, and then I realized, oh, he really was a dog person. So it's a little bit, it's like not the most flattering about cats, but it's a very deep dharma. It really expresses something very true about Suzuki Roshi and very true about Sojin Roshi's understanding as well. I'll just read a little bit of it. There's a couple here that I want to share. So there's a chapter called Respect. Suzuki Roshi says,

[24:27]

On Nirvana Day, so that's the day that we're celebrating the death of the Buddha, temples hang scrolls deficting the Buddha, critically ill, surrounded by his disciples and the many animals and birds who had come to see how he was. When they saw him, they all started crying. Buddha's lying there dead. animals all the beings to pay their respects and to grieve the loss of their beloved teacher. When people look at that picture, some say, we cannot find any cats in that picture. I don't know why. No one ever explained to me why we'd come. When I was 16 or 17, I became aware of the superficial expression of good manners.

[25:30]

At that time, I didn't like the monk's way, the priest's way. They would always bow, but it didn't seem to me they just did it superficially without any feeling. In a conversation yesterday with Norman and Ruthos, I keep more support. It's just been amazing, the support. from people for this project. Norman brought this point out, you know, how this kind of a ambivalence about religion that Suzuki Roshi had, and it occurred to me that I think that's why he did so well in the United States, you know, because many of us are pretty ambivalent about religion, really have mixed feelings, like we really love it, but then he's always saying like, yeah, the monks and the priests and something so true and deep and beautiful. So anyway, he said, So he didn't like, when he was young, he didn't like the superficial way of the priests.

[26:32]

Acting in that way, you know, bowing without really meaning it, acting in that way is called cat way. The cat's way looks very gentle and lovely, but it is not so deep. There is no strong feeling in it. If we say go away, they will just go away. If they think it is all right, they may easily approach you. Either way, there is no strong feeling in it. I thought, that is why the cats did not come to the Buddha's last hour. And then he says, you know, our society, our superficial, cat-like in its superficiality, And he appreciates that people with, you know, their long hair and drumming and dancing are rejecting this insincere world, this insincere superficial way of life.

[27:37]

And he says to you that you really, it makes sense that you're rejecting that. And yet... I am not so concerned about the Beatnik style or the hippie style as long as they can express respect to others in the simplest way. I think they are expressing respect to society's cat-like manner. They should also express some respect to the truth or to real religious life so that we can kind of be antagonistic or be dismissive of the superficial society, but are we actually showing the deep to the Buddha, to life itself, to the Sando. So then he says, you know, so come clean your feet. He's just saying to the people, you know, clean your feet before it's great that you want to be counter-cultural. Society is superficial, but are you sincere? Can you show this respect for something real?

[28:41]

That's kind of the theme of this cat-like. Cat-like manners and teaching that respect. I think Mel really likes that one. And then, anybody want to say anything about that? Share a couple of others. Superficial, yeah. You could think that's like, oh, it's not attached. But it's not that it's not attached, it's that it's not feeling sincerely. With all due respect, this is that. An unfair generalization of cats. I know, I now have a cat. I'm turning my own view around on that point. This is almost... I remember Mel also really appreciating, in a similar vein, this chapter that we called humor.

[29:50]

So I'll just read a couple paragraphs of them. Zen masters have an element in their lives. And after their deaths, we may understand even better how funny they were. They can be humorous because they have an understanding that is more than real. Their humor is more real than reality. Reality is not so real. If you see a comic, that can be more real than the actual event. I think that because Zen masters have something real, they can always be funny. When they say something ordinary in their mind, they are always expressing it as if they are drawing on something comical. For them, it is comical, but for others, it is a real and serious thing." And then he tells a story about Kumazawa Zenji. the vice-avid at Ahiji when Suzuki Rishi was practicing there.

[30:54]

And he says that he heard about a sparrow breaking a stone gate. A sparrow broke a stone gate. And everybody thought, he says, they didn't really understand but they thought, this is a Zen story. What he means must be something deep. Recently I found out that it had been a joke. He was just joking in a serious manner. It was using a pun. The serious students are completely missing the point. So he says, as he was trained very well in Zazen practice, He was always serious, but he was always funny at the same time. It was not just seriousness, because it always had an element of happiness in it.

[32:00]

I don't think many people knew that he was telling a joke, and we didn't talk about that story at all after the talk. When we were young, we did not like such ridiculous stories. We were serious students, you know. We didn't like it at all that he was fooling us, so we didn't talk about it. Quite recently I thought, he was fooling us when we were practicing so seriously. For maybe 96 years, he was fooling us. When he was dying, he stretched out his arm for the water pitcher and the attendant gave it to him. He drank from the pitcher and said, and he was no . He vanished from the world. It was terrible. Newspaper reporters and famous Zen masters admired the way that he had died. But I think he was fooling us. What Kumazawa Zenji was doing, we can understand or see. We cannot take the things he did literally.

[33:04]

Actually, he wasn't doing anything. He was just moving his mouth, that's all. I don't know how to understand it, but Dogen Zenji has shown us how to be like him, living with in confusion, but also independent of the confusion. That is the core of our practice. So this sense of if we appreciate what our life actually is, and yet not take anything too seriously. One of the points I make in the interview here is how, you know, Mel thought maybe we could leave in all the places where Suzuki Roshi says, or where the transcript says that people are laughing or Suzuki Roshi is laughing.

[34:09]

But they're all over, you know? So we can't include it. People are laughing through the whole thing, you know? Suzuki Roshi's talking and laughing at himself and everyone's laughing. He's laughing, which is also just funny, you know? And sometimes everybody's laughing. But there's something about that lightness, you know, that when you feel that, you can understand the teaching much more clearly, especially when he's being serious in a way. It's hard to bring that in when it's words that are printed, you know, to bring in that feeling of lightness or laughter. I think maybe we take a little break now. I don't want to go on too long. Yeah, do you want to take a move into Q&A or what would you like to do? Does anybody have anything to say or to share? There's another good story that I could read.

[35:15]

We could wrap up. We can, uh, another story and then, um, and then stretch, then stretch or move to like, uh, usually we have like a Q and A at the end so that folks online can participate in a little easier as we're going on. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that that's more formal break. Okay. Yeah. Um, then, uh, This is a really good book. Well, maybe I won't read this story then because there's something more important to say. This story is a really good one though. It's about this Zen teacher who was out in the most beautiful landscape and had some time to smoke a cigarette and it was the most

[36:22]

perfect cigarette. It was the most perfect cigarette, so he never smoked again. And Suzuki Roshi says he understood desire, and he understood how to take care of himself. So it's a beautiful, a beautiful story. It's like Mel and Suzuki Roshi, you know, don't need to explain that too much. But I get into it and I do all Dharma talk, but it's better to just say, you understand already, you know, yeah. It's just, you don't need anything after that. So, maybe just briefly... There's another story, maybe I'll just summarize, of another teacher of Suzuki Roshi's... Suzuki Roshi's teaching on the precepts, that Suzuki Roshi wanted to convey about precepts, and what did Mel think?

[37:23]

You all need to understand what he means about precepts, and that is that precepts are the way that we support each other, that we guide our life, is something that we have already in us. our compassion and care and carefulness isn't something that we need to think about as a set of rules or look for anywhere other than ourselves. We just need to connect with our innately loving heart to just be ourself in a way that includes everything. And then we're acting in accord with the bodhisattva precept. He says if the precepts are a moral code that you have in your mind, then what's going to happen is when you're in a situation, every situation is calling for right action, right?

[38:32]

Every situation is calling for the observance of precepts, or our ethics, our vow, our longing, and wake up with everyone, support people and not cause harm. So when we're in a moment, like now or any other moment, and we want to know what's the right thing to do, that's so important, that's such an important thing, what's the right thing to do. So now we have, if we go to a moral code that we have in our mind, what's happening? We're like removing ourselves from the situation that we're actually in, this embodied presence with a life situation, and we're saying, what is that list? What are those precepts again? What am I supposed to do? What did the book say I was supposed to do? Does number eight apply? Does number three apply? We're using this mental, this moral code, this idea of precepts, and we're putting that in front of us in a way that's actually taking ourselves from the situation.

[39:37]

We're looking outside for some God. It's not that we just do whatever we want in that situation. It really matters what we do in our life. But the way to be sincere about what we do in our life is to stay connected to Zazen all day long. If we have a gap in our practice when we're checking with the moral code, we're not really following the moral code. The way to practice precepts is to do Zazen. The precepts are what we already have. If you ever wonder how can I be of most benefit, come into the moment with what is here. Open, allow, welcome what's here. and then trust some action to arise from that. You still might make a mess and have to apologize, but that that's going to be better than going to a moral code. And so these precepts, this way that we're looking for, we already have. So in this other funny story, he says, you know, it's this kid who's got some tofu at the last minute for lunch while the bell is ringing for lunch.

[40:43]

He gets all frazzled and thinks that he doesn't have his hat. That's like us thinking that we're not Buddha, you know, or thinking that we don't know how to actually benefit each other. So he gets all frazzled and he forgets that he has his hat on his head. To the shop, he goes, give me my hat, I left my hat. And the doctor was like, what are you talking about? He says, my hat, my hat, my hat. He says, oh, the hat's on your head. So that's our practice of precept is like that. the hat is on your head, and actually you're running around trying to find your way. It's not as good as just knowing that you have the hat on your head. The precepts are our nature. So this is really authentic Soto Zen. This is really traditional, fundamental, deep teaching of our lineage. And we do sometimes study the , you know, we learn the 16. But again, again in here, he's saying, do not study these one by one.

[41:46]

Just, and you can, you know, to support. But really, the call is to stay in Zazen, to have no gap in our practice. So maybe I'll stop there, and if anyone has a comment, or should we, yeah. Anybody need to move their legs or wants to make a comment or question? Close. Why don't we take a couple minutes just to stand and then we can return for some conversation. Does that sound okay? Wonderful, thank you. I've already started. So to help the folks online hear the questions or comments and conversation, I'll pass around a mic.

[44:37]

So just raise your hand, say anything, and I'll bring a mic over to you. And if you're online, please feel free to raise your digital hand and our tech host, Gensan, will call on you. And yeah, so please, please bring your conversation. Thank you. Hi, thank you for coming here to be with us. I haven't made it to Green Culture to be with you. The last thing you said about just stay in Zazen, right? That's what I wanted to hear more about. Of course, we're not gonna stay on our cushion, so we stay with our breath wherever we are. Is that your meaning? about that, to stay in Sassan. I know Sojin used to always talk about knowing what your breath is.

[45:40]

So it'd be with your breath. So is that your meaning? I just know after what happened with Baker Roshi, I've been around for a while, everybody was saying, well, we didn't study the precepts. And even when I read something by Rebecca Anderson, he said in the book, precepts. And then Aiken Roshi wrote a whole book, a big book about the precepts in reaction to that. And suddenly it was like, precepts. So anyway. Yeah. Wonderful. Maybe two parts. It turns out that this is like a really deep and ancient question in Buddhism. And it goes back to like the Tendai tradition, you know, before Dogen, Zenji, and kind of these different ways of understanding precepts as rules to follow or as kind of expression of Buddha nature, you know, and the path of

[46:58]

as a kind of like one precept of zazen versus the sort of careful, diligent management of your conduct, you know, with the various whatever set of precepts. So this kind of tension between rules that we follow and kind of a mind, body that we stay devoted to is is like too precious attention to just resolve, you know? So it's like the wings of the bird, you know, or it's like the dynamic energy in the engine that's making it, that's actually creating. Wonderful that this way of, I think that we're ready, maybe how about that? I think that we're ready to be reminded of the way that there's only one precept, which is Zazen. and that if we actually want to live in a skillful and wise way, that living from our nature and trusting that is deep and valuable and important.

[48:12]

And then we study the precepts to help to refine that. We study the precepts in order to better understand the one reality that all the precepts are pointing to. So it's not a carelessness, it's a kind of way of expressing the sincerity. But so I think it's wonderful. Now there are various books now about bodhisattva precepts that go one by one. And I think we're ready for a book that doesn't go one by one, that says, why are you going one by one, that says, we don't go one by one, that says, you should not go one by one, now that we've done one by one. Maybe we weren't ready before we went one by one. It's both. And so what is that? What is that care? What is that zazen? So this expression of shikantaza as being yourself.

[49:16]

Just to sit as yourself. So clear. That's not like an instruction, like breath counting. It's an instruction. But it is a Dharma gig. And in this collection, at least, we kind of bring out Suzuki Roshi saying that again and again. What does he mean zazen? He means being totally yourself, which isn't the self that you've figured out. In fact, don't try to figure out who you are is another chapter that Mel really liked. Don't try to figure out who you are. That's not what I'm talking about. So to just be what this is completely, It includes everything. So hold on to an experience that you have, what it feels like to sit, and then carry that through your life somehow. It means every moment you are just you yourself. That we feel like, but I can't trust that. And the invitation is maybe you can, maybe you can.

[50:18]

And if you don't, you know, maybe you can, connect a little more fully, a little more deeply with what is this me being me right now. Very wonderful. To me, the emphasizing precepts, emphasizing the precepts are zazen, is different than dismissing precepts by saying precepts are zazen. We don't need to worry about precepts because they're just zazen. It's more like precepts are the most important thing, and they're zazen. It's a different feeling. That's what I feel like that's coming through in this book. But we have not... Keep reading the other books too. And keep asking your friends for how you're doing. It's not like, well I was coming from Zazen, you can't believe me that I said something to me. I was just being one with everything in my true self, so... Suzuki Roshi, in a piece that we didn't include in here,

[51:23]

it appears in branching streams flow on in the darkness. He says, you know, do not kill is the dead precept. Excuse me is the living precept. I'm sorry is the living precept. It's not like, well, I'm indulgent for what I'm doing. It includes that we are sorry. And here he says, you know, How do we not kill? We say not to kill, and now we're eating this food. He says, I used to think that was so hypocritical. The temple, and they would say, I vow not to kill. And then they'd go home and eat rice, which involves the killing of all these bugs. And so again, this is his kind of like anger at Buddhism. It's so funny, it really comes out. And he says, so I thought they were hypocritical, but now I see when they said, I vow not to kill, that was an expression, true and deep. Right there.

[52:24]

So just keep saying, I vow not to kill, and then it's not like you succeed at that. So then you say, I'm sorry. So he says you're eating the rice, and you have the idea, maybe I'm making a mistake. I'm not so sure. If you're studying the precepts in a real black and white way, and you know the precepts, then you can say, I got this all checked out by the lawyer. and the Buddha, and eating this rice is permissible, and I'm sure of it, you know. I'm following the precept. Tsukiroshi's way is more like, I'm not so sure that I'm not sure of them by eating this rice. I may be making some mistake, I'm sorry, and my heart is filled with gratitude, and that's how I'm observing the precept. But yes, it's a very open way. I appreciate your question. We do have a question online.

[53:27]

We'll take one more and then we'll go online. Okay. There's a notion going around this kind of derogatory that labels things as and I wonder how that makes you hear into your work on the book. Spiritual bypass, what a wonderful, rich dharma time we live in, you know. All of the doubt just clarifies the true teaching. So you might say, well that Zen looks like spiritual bypass, And then the faith part says, the real Zen is the Zen that doesn't have spiritual bypass. The doubt clarifies the faith, you know? So the spiritual bypass is like, I'm not including something.

[54:32]

So again and again, this is one of the things that really was affirmed to me. Maybe some of you, maybe also, Sado, Lee to Barros. Anybody know Lee? Yeah. Lee was my ordination teacher, and he would always teach in this way. Include everything, welcome everything. It's not just him, but it really landed, you know, because I was so open to those words. Again and again in Suzuki Roshi's teaching, our way is to include everything. We're not trying to get some particular experience or some particular feeling, so then there's no need to exclude anything. Why would we push something away? It's because we want to have that kind of experience, right? Or we want to protect something. Does that make sense? If we're just willing to be ourself exactly as we are, including everything, then we're not bypassing anything because we're not trying to get something in our mind about what spirituality is and then something else that's like in the way of that, so we want to kind of cover that over.

[55:46]

So for me, this practice, there is a kind of psychological, you know, there's myriad ways to see this teaching on including everything. Really a stone, when a stone is just a stone through and through, it includes everything. When we practice in a way that includes everything, there's nothing left in the shadow, you know, there's nothing that needs to be pushed away. So I think that vow, that aspiration to just include, help everything, to welcome everything. It's kind of like the opposite of spiritual bypass. And I wonder if that resonates for you or if you have that concern that some aspect of practice is like avoiding some of the relative. I think the forms can have you, excuse me, I think the forms can delude you into thinking you have that spiritual connection. Of course, Sotin used to say a lot, you know, how to use them without being used by them.

[57:09]

Suzuki Roshi again and again is talking about You know, if we want to be free from the forms by not doing the forms, it's better to be in a limitation. It's better to find ourselves, I don't know better, but Suzuki Roshi's way was to be in some limitation and to find ourselves through the limitation. One of my favorite pieces, he says, you know, we want to be free of limitation and have the whole universe, but really it'd be better to just have a small stone. The whole universe, but just take a small stone. That's how you get the whole universe. So the kind of embrace of limitation, it's not a preciousness of, like, the form has to be this way or that way. It's just, can we pour ourselves wholeheartedly into some limitation and then just see that that small thing, that small room, that small stone actually includes everything without getting any bigger than it is. But yes, it is kind of a dangerous practice, the formal practice. And I feel Sam Suzuki Rashi's ambivalence too, you know, sometimes it's like,

[58:13]

We need to make a Zen center to help people, but it's going to be very confusing for people to have a Zen center. We just want people to be themselves, you know. So anyway, but thank you. Yeah, we need to take good care of our whole being. And I do feel like the Dharma in the United States is at a good place now with that kind of psychological awareness for the wisdom of those traditions. and the ability to be completely free of everything we think about what is happening here is also really important for our real freedom. Maybe one or two more comments and then we should close. I feel like I'm keeping you a long time. All right, Gensan, you want to call on someone online?

[59:14]

Good evening. This is Mary. Thank you for the offering today and tonight. And also thank you for the long, I guess it's eight year journey of shepherding this project, which I am quite certain wouldn't have materialized that effort on your part. I came to Berkeley Zen Center because I wanted to be close to someone who had been close to Suzuki. And what I found in Sojin was someone who carried, I don't know how to say it, but maybe the whiff of Suzuki, you know, the odor of the robe or something. in his being, in his way of being.

[60:18]

I ended up over time feeling like I learned more about what it means to be in relationship, the relationship, watching the devotion, feeling, not watching, but feeling the devotion with Suzuki and feeling The aliveness of Suzuki through Sojin was maybe the most moving teaching. And so my question is, what was it like for you to be a witness of the relationship between those two? And what was the texture of it for you? So describe, describe that smell. Part of what's wonderful, you know, I arrived at, kind of in the Zen Center, 1996.

[61:42]

So of course never knew Suzuki Roshi. But knew a lot of people who knew Suzuki Roshi and who felt that they really understood Suzuki Roshi or had something special with Suzuki Roshi. I remember Peter Schneider. I made some comment, I don't know, I think I made some comment like, you know, Mel really understood Suzuki Roshi. And Peter said, to see these people who are so different, you know, so different. These teachers who have that, so what is that smell, you know, and that's part of the, yeah. But I do, I guess I really did believe now. had a kind of like, when I say that he knew what he meant, it just felt like he just knew what he meant.

[62:48]

He really, but I hear you about that, that quality of relationship. And it brings to my, I can't just that, you know, all of us. So Mel, you know, I asked him, you know, how do you prepare a Dharma talk? And he said, well, you know, you come a little while before the Dharma talk. maybe an hour, half an hour before the Dharma talk. And then it seemed like, you know, you just look at what chapter you want to talk about, and then you just come to share the chapter. In one of his, in Sojin's last talk at Green Loach, he told this story and it was so touching. It moved him to tears, actually. And that was a really beautiful moment where he was sharing this very simple story of, I don't remember the case, you know, or the names of the people, but the student who kept not getting teaching from the teacher, like, you know, I've been at this temple for all these years and you haven't given me any teaching.

[64:04]

And so this kind of goes on like that for a while and then in the end the teacher says, all I've been doing is giving you teaching. When you bring me the tea, I receive it and drink. This intimacy of this disembodied silence, we're just living together, serving and receiving tea. What were you waiting for? What are you talking about? When am I gonna give you the teaching? So just that sense that it's really just about this embodied presence. And I always felt that with Mel, that I wasn't coming to see Mel to learn something in my mind at all, but more like to just align, kind of like honing a knife or something, just kind of align the vibe of practice together. Is that too hippy to put it that way? Yeah.

[65:07]

I'm sorry, it's a beautiful question. I've not done it justice. Thank you for that special flavor between Sojin and Susan. We wanted to share that and many of us also felt that with Sojin as you did. Thank you. Shall we close? Thank you so much for your kind attention.

[65:38]

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