This book is what brings Kogan here to talk with us today. So thank you very much for coming. We're sorry that we're not in the Zendo with you, but here we are. Please help Kogan Czarnik. Good morning, everyone. Thank you very much, Susan, for introduction and thank you for having me. It's an honor to be giving this talk at Berkley Zen Center, even if, you know, and causes prevented us from meeting in person, but we have those technologies now that can help us with that. So it's really... wonderful for me to be particularly in Berklee Zen Center. I actually started my practice with Jack Shok Wongroshi of Sonoma Mountains Zen Center.

[01:03]

He used to come to Poland every summer for a month and a half and we used to do a month long retreat. So that was my every summer in the college before I went to Japan. So it feels very kind of... In Japan, I visited Rinso in Temple many, many times. Actually, this Koromo that I have on me, Hoizuro, he gave it to me when I was shuso at Tōshōji because mine was very shabby in many halls. So he took pity on me. So they are a Japanese family, I can say. So it feels very wonderful to be here. book that we'll be speaking about in this body in this lifetime about the great uh female ancestors sozen nagasawa roshi so i just want to acknowledge the sort of challenge of of me being on that you know the i learned in america this term mansplaining uh so so of course there's that challenge of let let me tell you you know there are probably many women teachers here um about your ancestor but um

[02:15]

At the same time, the editor of the books, Esho Sudan, Soto Zen Nan and a teacher, she's giving literally at this very minute talk in a city center in San Francisco. And I had this connection with quite a few of you because I practice in Tahoma Zen Monastery. And I know Hosan Roshi used to come also to practice with Soto Harada Roshi, who was one of my teachers. So you're stuck with me. But not the messenger is important, but the message. So I hope you can bear with me. So in the history of our tradition, since we tried to create this, so we know that it's actually challenging to pull those names out of darkness, out of history. Um, and in, you know, when we look at our lineage, there are three portions, right? The first portion is the Indian lineage and they're, you know, we have Terragata, right?

[03:18]

The, the, the, the poems, uh, wonderful lungs and, and their kind of realization expressed in their own words and it became Pali Canon, uh, some part of it. Right. Then in China, you know, we have some small records, right? And, and, and there was this beautiful publication called Daughters of which was celebrating poems of some nuns from, I think it was mostly Song Dynasty China, I might be wrong. So there are some things we can refer to. And in Japan, you know, if we try to find teachers female Zen master, right? If anyone can bring to mind the favorite line from, you know, from a female teacher, right? Not maybe Dogen Zenji, not Keizan Zenji, not Hakuin Zenji, but, you know, female teacher, right? It's not that easy simply because the records didn't come to us, right?

[04:23]

It's not that those voices were not there. They simply were not cherished in the same way. So if we do some deep digging, we can find maybe, you know, one poem of the great nun Mugai Nyodai. We can hear of others this Nanryonen that Doge respected and honored, or that Keizan Zenji gave to transmission to Nanekyu. But yet, you know, if we actually try to find a mention of a female Zen master, not in the context of being a student of a great famous male teacher or being a He was a kind of companion to Ryokan in his later years, right? Or there's always that kind of, in that context of relationship with another male teacher, it's actually very hard to find records of that. And again, it's simply because they were not kept in church in the same way. So when we come down from, you know, all those centuries,

[05:27]

to Sozen Nagasawa Roshi. She was born, so maybe I'll introduce the book through her life story initially. So she was born in 1888 and in this time, there was not in her area, in her prefecture, there was not many nuns. She rarely saw any. So in her own words, she says, that when she was seven years old, in the province that I was born, there were no nuns. But one day, there was a nun who was traveling from a distant province to Bodaiji Temple, and she stayed for one night in our town. I saw her for a moment, but this became a reason for me to have affinity with the Dharma. Then I couldn't stop wishing to become a nun until this vow was realized. So just the single moment of seeing someone in that form, like a woman without hair and without adornments, just like a plain Dharma robe was so striking that she immediately had that aspiration.

[06:45]

But of course, in those times, it was Meiji era. So from 1868, the big persecutions of Buddhism were happening in Japan. So it wasn't a certainly easy time for, and nuns also were not really in a great position, you know, on top of that. Right. So, so, so for a Soto Zen nun, they couldn't go to the Soto schools university, Komazawa, right? It was only for monks, nuns were not allowed. They absolutely fraction of the support that monks would receive. both from the institution and to some degree from society, but maybe that's somewhat less. And most importantly, they were not allowed, in the constitution of the sotva, to give dharma transmission. So even if they could receive dharma transmission, their lineages were cut simply because they were prohibited to transmit it further.

[07:54]

uh you know in that context you know becoming a nun not um like only those with a body mind that that don't you know don't don't care for um any you know uh thing but the dharma you know could have decided on it so the the parents are very against um her becoming a nun And they asked her to do secular education, and she followed that. And when they passed away at age 27, she finally, when their wishes were not standing in the way, she entered. And she was ordained by Daivun Sogaku Harada Roshi, which again, I'll be throwing around quite a few Japanese names. If it's, you know, confusing, just let them in one ear, let them out the other ear and don't worry about it.

[08:56]

But, you know, for those people who are familiar, it might be a context. So Dayon Sogak Harada Roshi was this powerful teacher in those times who is famous in the West for kind of bringing Koan practice back to the Soto school and, of course, changing it using the Soto Koan collection of equanimity and so forth. But at the time he was actually still teaching at the Komazawa University. So I also just now remember that I have some photos and I'll try to share screen sometimes. I have perfectly honest beginner's mind on the topic of sharing screens on Zoom. So I hope it will work. All right, let's try it. All right, so this is Soda Nagasawa when she was in the school.

[10:06]

That's the only photo we have from her lay life. And this is her ordination picture here. So she got ordained maybe around 1910 or 1915. So I'll continue the talk and switch back and forth here. So at the time, as I said, there was no higher education for nuns in terms of like university, but also a single nunnery, training kind of nunnery that could provide like a Zen training, right? Right now there's, in Nagoya, there's this Aichiken Nisodo, which was led by Aoyama Shundo Roshi. And at the time, it was still not open yet. It was still, the only institution that Nans could access was Gakurin in Japanese, which means simply like a sutra school where Nans can receive Buddhist doctrine study, but there was no Zazen.

[11:14]

So she initially went through this kind of education. And after she went to the only Zen hall of the Rinzai school, which was Enkoji in Kyoto. But at the time, in Enkoji, there was a male teacher who would come and give doksan and teisho. So it wasn't also just like a place fully just for nuns. I mean, it was for nuns, but it wasn't run by nuns. Let's put it this way, right? So after that, Nagasawa Roshi decided, or maybe her teacher encouraged her to go to Shōgen-ji. It's a very famous monastery in Japan. Actually, it's kind of nicknamed through the last few centuries was the Peerless Demons. Sodo, right? Demons monastery. And it's a very, very kind of intense practice place of Rinzai school where her teacher, Harada Roshi himself, practiced as a young monk in the late 90s.

[12:20]

He had some connections there. So he sent her off to this monastery where she was the only nun, right? So there's probably 100 monks. And there was one nun living outside of gate and kind of coming in for the practice, for Doksan, for Teisho, for Zazen. But of course, you know, that's also not easy position to be in, right? In the Japanese society, in, you know, beginning of the 20th century. And also, you know, that was certainly not easy for the body. So she spent a few years, three years practicing and, you know, yet her body started also to have health problems. And it was, you know, part of it was, of course, just a lifestyle, lack of sleep, as you know, we know like the idea of like, oh, Zen is just like this.

[13:22]

The word Zen became the synonymous with like, relaxation or ease. Oh, that's so Zen, right? But when you go to Zen monastery and as some of you know, and your practice of session probably tells you too, sometimes it's far from it. So, Sogakura Roshi himself, we don't have like a description of Nagasawa Roshi, but Sogakura Roshi himself was speaking a little bit about the, just an example, right? To kind of compare the notes here about the Shōgenji Monastery. And he is saying, I had heard the reputation of the sodo, so I had come mentally prepared. But what surprised me most was how poor the food was. I had been raised at a poor temple, so I had never known the taste of a fancy dish. But here, for two out of three meals, both morning and evening, I had porridge and pickles. This porridge was called sealing porridge.

[14:25]

because it was so very, very thin that the ceiling would reflect in the bowl. It was made in a big pot of boiling water with some dried ground barley thrown into it and stirred. When eating it, there was nothing solid there. It was just like water with some smell of barley." So, you know, certainly it's not like a... easy, you know, easy training place with the, you know, pressure cooker of 100 monks and her position there and, you know, the food and, you know, coffee. In Japan, often in the Zen monastery, there's no heat, right, in any of the buildings. So if it's outside, it's 25, inside it's 25, maybe 26, you know, but still, the difference is not big. So after that, she... she shogunji to to to recover with her health and and and at that time her teacher soga kradaroshi already created hoshinji this this monastery in the town with familiar sounding name obama and it was it was very famous monastery um where was not that

[15:42]

easy, right? So, of course, it was kind of very Rinzai-influenced style of practice. And here is one of the nuns from the collection is describing, she went first to Hoshinji for one retreat before moving to later and practicing with Soden Nagasauroshi. And she is describing her experience at Hoshinji, just to kind of give flavor what Nagasauroshi was doing for 12 years she spent there. So she's talking here about Rohatsu, which is, of course, the Buddha's enlightenment session. I had heard stories about Rohatsu before. Now I saw it with my own eyes. As far as could be seen, the world around us was completely white with snow. But behind the Zendo, people are taking off all their clothes and jumping into the water tank to stay clear. Moo. Everyone was trying to awaken deep into the night, either going to the mountains or in between the stones in the graveyard.

[16:48]

And the loud voice of desperate hard practice was echoing everywhere. Hearing that wouldn't be inspired. Even me, a person of low capacity, I couldn't help but do the snow. Before the abbot's graves and on the mountainside, I too searched for my true form. With the passing of the days, the appearance of all the sangha started to resemble demons. The sound of presenting the koan was growing increasingly fierce. Both enlightened ones and those unenlightened were coming together, aiming at the utmost realization, giving their best in their devoted efforts. So this is like a practice style, right, at Hoshinji, very, very, you know, pressure cooker, Rinzai, kind of aiming. So Nagasaroshi spent their 12 years at Hoshinji in that training. And, you know, reminiscing about all of her practice time, she says, Enduring various hardships, how many times this body of death, yet the golden and unsurpassed words of Buddhas and ancestors were penetrating my bones and marrow, and I didn't have time to spare to listen.

[18:10]

worldly ways of criticizing nuns. I just wanted to create a practice place where women and nuns could train together. Those whose affinity with the Dharma could realize their nature. So Nagasawa Roshi, I'll try to return here back to the photos. So she spent in this training overall 20 from the time she was ordained in 1915 to the time when she went through Enkoji Sodo. Here is a photo of Nagasawa Roshi on the left here with other nuns. In those times, Samu was done in what's this called? Nagasamue, which looks kind of like kimono with obi belt. Inuaraji, the straw sandals.

[19:11]

Here is Nagasawa Roshi at Shogunji Monastery, the Rinzai, Peerless Demons Monastery. And here we have Nagasawa Roshi here with her teacher, Daunsogakuhara Roshi at Hoshinji. That's where she spent the longest time and practiced under his guidance and received Inka and Shiho from Daionsoga Karada Roshi. And in 1935, she went on to create Kanonji. So here's like a photo from early days of Kanonji. I'll stop sharing here. All right. So in 1935, she left Hoshinji and she created Kanlonji, this temple in Tokyo. And she created it completely from scratch, which is very unusual.

[20:15]

In Japan, the whole system of temples works system, which is like a parishioner system. So people have graves at the temple. graveyard in the temple. And because of that, they support the temple financially in all sorts of ways. But because she was creating something from completely zero, very small building in the fields of Musashino, and there they established their practice. And mostly they supported themselves through begging, traditional alms takuhatsu. And it's, you know, we're talking about the period just before, during and after this. Obviously, that wasn't an easy time for the entire society in terms of, you know, what was the quality of life and how people struggled sometimes to have food. So certainly it was an easy time to establish from nothing this practice place, but yet they... And even if initially those were...

[21:23]

humble beginnings, one can say, as Nagasawa Roshi liked herself saying the place looked like a pig pen. But here is like a description of one of the nuns from the collection that's hearing from Nagasawa Roshi when she applied for the training and she received the letter back. When I was reading together with my teacher the letter from the venerable abbess Nagasawa Roshi, each phrase and word penetrated the marrow of my bones. It felt so precious and precious. The letter said that the practice place was small and looked just like a pig pen. I recalled Hakuin Zenji and his training with Shōju Ronin and thought, even if it is a pig pen or a stable, if it is a practice place where a world-famous nun lives, Who is liberating women? Where is the hindrance? There are grand monasteries with all seven buildings, but often there is no Buddha in those golden halls.

[22:30]

Even if this temple is small, if the people inside it are all real bodhisattvas, surely the dharma light of true transmission is... So, you know, also as we experience in the West, right? Like it's not, we can have... necessarily those vast monasteries, like in Japan sometimes, those complexes. And yet, at different times, even in those old monasteries, sometimes the practice can die out or there's not a teacher who emphasizes true fruits of practice and liberation, and rather it becomes more of that religious preservation of tradition. And on the other hand, of course, you know, we can have small zendo and it can have true powerful effect changing lives of people. I certainly remember when we used to practice at Kongrosi's Sangha in Poland, we basically was renting like a one room in the basement of the projects.

[23:44]

And we had rats running on the pipes during Zazen. So the practice place comes to life through our practice and certainly not through magnificence of architecture. But Nagasawa Roshi started from a very humble little place, but with the time, Everybody was impressed with the way those nuns were practicing and people started to support her more and more. So she started Takuhatsu for the building of new Zendo and new Hondo. And they succeeded eventually. So here is a photo of nuns in the Takuhatsu during begging. Nagasauroshi is here on the left. I'll go through some of those photos now.

[24:49]

Here is like a very early Sangha of Nagasauroshi and you know, sometimes, especially during those times, we had orphans often given away to the temple. died and there were no relatives that were able to take care of children. So often there were actually children given to Kanonji and they had like this little section where they took care of many children. This is Nagasawa Roshi probably in her 50s. Here is a photo of Samu. at the temple. This is Nagasawa Roshi and other nuns. The photo I was looking for was this one. So this is like a beginning of Takuhatsu, and here we have written Zendo Kenshiku Takuhatsu, which means the kind of alms rounds for the purpose of creating new Zendo.

[25:56]

And here we have the opening, kind of beginning ceremony of the building being established for that purpose. So Nagasawa Roshi created monastery and and and there she trained many many nuns generations of nuns and generations of lay women because she also you know she wasn't exclusive in that way and also men were training there um and in the book that uh you know uh is is is kind of sharing uh initially there were also stories of men but Shambhala publications thought that it's probably better to market it as only sort of women's awakening book. But how the book came about was that Nagasawa Roshi, whenever any of her students would have this kind of liberative insight, breakthrough, which they call Kensho, especially in that Inzaizen tradition, she would ask them to write down their story.

[27:12]

How did they encounter practice? How did they, you know, how was the session experience? How this kind of coming to some resolution in their practice came about for them. And then she would go with those stories and she would go to like a publication house of, there was this publication house, Chuo Book Kyosha, and they every month They would have an issue of a magazine that would go to different temples in Japan and different lay communities in Japan. And she would publish those accounts there month after month as a way to show that it is possible. It's not just for exclusive few. It's not just for monks. It's not just for... you know, Dogen Zenji and Hakuin Zenji, it's actually for anyone who will bring their heart to practice, right?

[28:16]

And so it's very unusual in that way. Outside of Dogen's writings, the most famous Zen text in our tradition, Soto Zen, is Denko Oroku, right? Which is the transmission of the lamp by Keizan Zenji. And it's basically each ancestor from Shakyamuni Buddha all the way until dog and is describing their, how they, to that clarification of nature of mind. But yet when it comes down to, you know, let's say practitioners of, [...] you know, in Japan at the time, you know, it, it, it is a little bit of taboo, right. To speak about of your own experience. And, and especially, you know, women were not getting the message that they, you know, and, and, and, you know and not only nuns but of course lay women right so so for her to bring those stories of you know sometimes they're in the collection there were like um 73 year old illiterate uh woman from a village or 20 year old girl from tokyo right so so very diverse voices and and she was publishing them in this buddhist magazine where

[29:26]

you know, great teachers of the time like Mumon Yamada Roshi or Sogak Harada Roshi were writing their articles and she would, you know, she would make sure to place those there. And through the years, there were just so many of them that the publishing house decided to put together a book, which was in Japanese called Sanzen Taiken Chu, which... translates to like experiences in Zen training. And in 1956, they were published, 60 of those, they picked from probably much, many more, they picked 60 of those stories, a book. So this book that I'm talking about is in this body, in this lifetime. And it's a selection of 30 of those stories, which, you know, were picked, you know, some of the, even access to education or, or, so of course, you know, some of the stories were a little bit more, uh, chronologically not that coherent.

[30:28]

And, and so, so those 30 that were picked, uh, where, um, you know, hopefully they're kind of more readable and, and, and, and sort of standing out. And, um, so, so, so, so. Creating a nunnery from scratch, undergoing a training with men in those all difficult circumstances for 20 years, then creating this powerful nunnery and inviting all women and nuns and whoever came. And here is a little kind of personal connection. Some people might know that story, but my own teacher, Tangen Harada Roshi, when he was a very young man, you know, his mother had a tumor, was pregnant with him, right? So she, she, people are telling, she had already four children. So people are telling her, you should, you should have the surgery and just, you know, this children, you know, prioritize the four children you have over the pregnancy that you are in right now.

[31:37]

And she refused to give birth to this child. And she did. So Tangerosh had this sense of being on a borrowed life, all his life. So then he was probably 18 years old when the Second World War came and then he saw a poster that was saying, give your life to save others. And he felt message, so he signed up and that was the kamikaze special forces, right? So it's the suicide bombing thing. And exactly at the time when when he was supposed to take his final flight. And exactly that day he radio the unconditional surrender of Japan on 15th August, 1945. And after a year in Manchuria in a prisoner of war camp, he came to Japan and profoundly suffering and survivor complex and everything. And the first person he encountered was Sozen Nagasawaroshi.

[32:39]

in Musashino at the time. So someone told him about Nagasaroshi and he was sent to Kanonji. And his first session was there. And he said that, you know, those teachings of Nagasaroshi just profoundly impacted him and truly gave him faith. And of course, he was a young man. kind of on fire with practice. So Nagasawa, she couldn't keep him there as it is a nonary, so she sent him off to Hoshinji and later he became teacher in that same lineage. But many people, countless people had benefited so profoundly from this powerful teacher. And additional here, I'm kind of mindful of the time, but I'll try to wrap it up with this kind of last aspect of her great legacy is that, as I mentioned before, nuns were not allowed to give Dharma transmission, right? Sauroshi was one of the two key figures in overthrowing that constitution of Soto school and her together with her student, Kojima Kendo Roshi,

[33:50]

She, they both traveled the entire Japan and made meetings with different nuns. They created all nuns, all Japan nuns association and Soto Zen Nuns Association. And they gathered signatures and, you know, through that whole process. Nagasawa, she was a vice chairman of both organizations because she was so busy with running the nunner and she was running of Japan to Inigata prefecture especially. So that was her primary focus and Kojima Kendo was going around to different councils and trying to bring the famous words of Dogen from Bendoa where he says, do not differentiate women, this is the ultimate principle of the way. Um, she, she, you know, she was trying to bring it to life. And she said that time after time, she met with that, you know, a resistance and, and it's also in, you know, her story is one of those 30 stories.

[34:54]

And she tells there how, how, how she, after being rejected time after time and, and sort of feel beaten down by it. She, she, she, she makes this turn of, of, um, I should prove it in my own experience, she says, right? And then she, so she goes back to Nagasauro, she's monastery and she stays there and does practice and herself has, has this, you know, Kensho recognition of nature. And, and, and, and after that, back to that work and, and finally in 1952, so, um, whatever it is, 73 years ago, the, the, the constitution was changed. So nuns finally can allow, I mean, finally are able to give dharma transmission. And since then, their lineages could continue to be interrupted. So Nagasaroshi left this powerful nanari. She left her own successors that she could legally transmit dharma to them. And again, not that she cared for how the man-made system was narrating it.

[35:59]

just doing what she felt was important and truly sharing the Dharma. But, you know, this is nevertheless for all female teachers in Soto Zen that are now able to register their students as successors. You know, it's Nagasaki and Kojima Kendoroshi's legacy as well. know we see the book itself doesn't contain necessarily Nagasaroshi's teachings as such she wrote a foreword to it and you know we see her through 30 persons each experience her and and you know as as the common bodhisattva sometimes is depicted right with with with you know 11 or 33 different faces so uh certainly you know some of them are wrathful and some of them are very you know compassionate and nagasauroshi also appears in in those ways and of course most of those accounts are in the context of session so um

[37:08]

know certainly that fierce side comes through too and and the practice there was you know um very strict too and you know as in japan and in those times totally a norm like using kyosaku i don't know if you you guys use kyosaku during session but um but you know that's that's part of you know i i had that training in japan too so um you know it's just part of it and and and also the interesting kind of piece, which, which, which is kind of unusual is that would make everybody practice moo out loud, right? During session. And, and, you know, in that lineage, also when I trained at Bukkokuji with Tangen Roshi, it was happening like maybe in the evenings of like a, when the session was really cooking three on their way, like fourth day, fifth day, sixth day. sometimes stand up and take a hammer to the to the belly in the center and he would say and he would just announce it right now everybody those people who practice move do it do it out loud right and he would just hit the bell and in this moment as the send out explode right there was this roar of of like lion's roar that in the village in obama could hear it you know for for miles away from from bokokuji and or from hoshinji

[38:27]

Um, and even in the winter when there was like rohatsu and there's like very cold or like February session when it's really, really cold, like, you know, after some time you start sweating there, you know, it, it was very kind of a body mind unifying sort of thing. And here in Nagasawa, she's using that, uh, much more frequently too. And, and with her nuns, she should just, just, uh, instruct them to do this practice in that way, with that intensity out loud. So those were times also when the Second World War was right there. And sometimes there were air raids on Tokyo and her temple was very close by Tokyo and they would sit, you know, sometimes hearing the sirens. And so sometimes, you know, that kind of bitter medicine is required in those times. So certainly maybe the style of practice, if any of you will read the book, will seem, you know, somewhat foreign, maybe to some degree because of that kind of container in that intensity.

[39:37]

But yet, you know, what we can... It's not necessarily the methods, but just that true faith in Dharma, that awakening is possible for everyone. It's not... just about like stress reduction or, you know, whatever mindfulness kind of tries to water it down to sometimes. And again, so that's not a criticism necessarily, but in terms of Buddha Dharma, you know, the vow that we take, right? And we'll probably chant it in 15 minutes or so. Sentient beings are numberless. We vow to save them all, right? in possibility for anyone. And that book is kind of like a Testament to that, right? Because there are people from all walks of life, right? It's because, you know, sometimes you would say like, Oh, maybe, you know, in that poverty, there was such a, you know, that, that kind of, um, uh, suffering and longing for liberation was kind of amplifying.

[40:39]

There, there are some women there that were actually from very wealthy background. They had servants and, and, and, you know, um, so. all those voices are saying in, in kind of, you know, their own unique ways, the, the, the same thing about possibility of finding peace, even in the most difficult through our practice, uh, through, uh, truly clarifying, uh, what, what, what, you know, the Buddha Dharma promise is about the, the, the sort of awakened mind, the, the, um, freedom from, from, from, you know, hindrances of, of, of, uh, our discriminating, mind, right, and bursting into the, whether it's gradually or suddenly, that's a secondary thing, but yet trusting in that possibility for all of us. And so hopefully this book is not only speaking to a legacy of a great teacher, but also inspiring us to truly dive in

[41:45]

deeply into the practice because I have that kind of feeling that probably Soto Nagasarashi would care way more about the second than the first. So I'm seeing we're probably around the point that usually we transition to questions. So I'll leave it at that. And yeah, if there are any questions, I would be happy to try to answer. All right. Ross? Good day to you, Kogan. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing the story, especially how her teaching was expressed through the students. So her voice is from there. It reminded me of Sojin Roshi, my teacher here at Berkeley, saying that we can judge their students. that the teacher doesn't flaunt their understanding, but you derive something from the students.

[42:47]

And so the deep bench at Berkeley Zen Center is a real testament to our founding Abbott. Thank you so much again. I really learned a lot and I feel very inspired hearing your stories around teacher and teachers and teachers and teachers. Thank you very much. Jen, do you want to call on people? I see Libby has her hand up. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think we can just go as the hands pop up, whoever. Thank you so much for your talk. I was wondering if you could connect Suzuki Roshi's approach that Zen is for everyone, so he came here to... to share Zen with everyone.

[43:49]

I wondered if you could connect him in any way to her book and to her view that Zen is for everyone. Yeah, you know, certainly. We sometimes can forget to which extent Zen was like an exclusive club of monastics behind the gates. It's... you know even until 19th century it's it's really you know maybe maybe lay people could come sometimes sit on the gaitan which is the outer row but they will wouldn't ever be able to access you know doksan or [...] you know access session sleep in the monastery and do session that was completely unheard of for many centuries really um so so to have people like suzuki roshi who who who you know of that and came to the US and actually, you know, open it to absolutely everybody and recognizing, you know, that it is, you know, the Buddha nature is all what we are.

[44:53]

And it's not only for some few, you know, gatekeeping clergy. So in the same way, you know, doing the same thing, but back there in Japan, and again, even if know she she wasn't supported by almost anyone she was like i'll i'll just create that support i'll you know she she through begging you know she established this place and also she opened it to everyone whoever whoever um they were able to access the practice they came there you know lay women come in and laymen coming for sessions sleeping at the temple and you know so so again it's like we can now from our perspective it's easy to forget because it's a matter of course that you know all all genders all all all ordination everybody is welcome and and and we practice all together but yet that wasn't the case for for for you know thousands of years actually you know so um so i think we needed those pioneers um that were able to to just see the limitations of that and actually open it to

[45:59]

Then, you know, there's a power in that. And, you know, that's beautiful. Thank you. If anyone else would like to speak, you can raise your hand and I'll call on you. Sorry, I have to end here. Thank you, Kogan, for your talk. I really appreciate it. And it comes on the heels. I'll be traveling to Japan for a really brief trip in August. So it was really just made things kind of exciting. And yeah, just made me really excited.

[47:05]

And I will also say that The pickles that were served, those were, I just discovered, tennis players used pickles in the 70s for hydration to keep you from cramping. And I wonder if you could speak a little more about why there was the separation and what was the... the pivot towards including everyone, in particular, keeping the separation between male and female. I imagine that there was a lot of pushback, but what was that? How did it transform in that way? And even bringing it to now, because I think that some of those society at large kind of exist. And so I'm just wondering if you could talk briefly about that. Sure.

[48:07]

Yeah. I mean, you know, to be honest, that sort of division to have, you know, either men only monasteries or, you know, women only monasteries, you know, tradition for entirety of its length. And to be honest, it's still continuous. And, you know, there are some you know, advantages, I think, you know, especially when Zen right now, it's a little bit more like a Protestant of a Buddhist world, right? Japanese Zen. We're not taking a vows of celibacy. But for, you know, all those centuries until Meiji era, that was the case, right? So, you know, you could say it simplifies things a little bit if you keep the group separate and they practice in their own, you know, groups. um and and to this day definitely monasteries and and nanneries and and they tend to just not you know as a rule that they they simply not accept other genders right so this still continues and i think again it was just this um i mean again

[49:19]

It's such a different context to write and cultural context. And of course, now I know that like in Green Gulch farm, or I don't know about Berkeley's center, you know, there are families that live together and maybe even raise kids there. So it's very different. It's very different context. But in Japan, if people are ordained, they're obliged to be celibate, then kind of it's like a simplification. Let's just, you know, let's just uh keep a safe distance not to fall into temptation kind of mindset right um and and you know later um teachers who are simply just saying you know what like you know sure there are maybe some benefits but maybe there are actually benefits where we can learn from each other from from from you know our diversity from all you know uh places and and you know there uh it's not it's still not a majority but you know my teacher tongue and heart we had anyone could come.

[50:22]

Sogenji with Shodra Harada Roshi, anyone could come. So there are teachers who simply just didn't want that. And often they were actually not on purpose, wouldn't want the accreditation of a formal training monastery because then they would have to follow rules. So they're keeping status of a regular or like a parish temple and they wouldn't once have be at official training monastery because then they would be limited by those rules. know it's but it's still continuing and i think you know i think it's good that we have diversity even in that way which means we have places that are actually you know personally celibate monastic and and single gender and we have places that actually take everybody in and [...] practice all together you know because that's part of of that beauty of of of life where where you know there there's different things and the different things work for different people and certainly there's place All of it, that's my kind of view on it. Thank you.

[51:24]

Thank you. I wonder if you could speak more about Kensho. I've had glimpses, but I still feel dominated by my mind and can show is that just, I mean, how does one experience that? Yeah. You know, that's, that's a little bit of like, uh, one could say it's a little, which, which we can also investigate why, but, but sometimes you could say it's like a little bit like a can of worms kind of question because there are so And in different groups, you know, there's a little bit more that like, you know, we don't talk about it because the more you conceptualize it and put it as this kind of goal that you chase as a carrot, the more you kind of get entangled in that kind of pursuit of something in the future, rather than looking at your immediate experience, what is true right now.

[52:37]

But at the same time, you know, there are 30 stories of women describing that, right? And kind of, you know, important distinction, I would say, just as a, you know, you know, there's not that time to go at length. And of course it's also probably between you and your teachers, but it's, you know, the distinction is like Kensho is not an experience, right? It's not just like, like, you know, experience is based on the content of experience. Kensho could be defined as a recognition of the whole nature of mind. And therefore the basis from which all experience happens is different, right? It's not that first person perspective sort of the world, right? It's me at the center of it all, feeling separate from everything else, right? But when that falls away, there's simply, you know, everything is arising on its own, onto itself, right? Without a seer, there's no split for a subject-object, right? So, you know, it's a recognition of a nature that was always like this, and it always is.

[53:45]

So it's not an experience that comes and goes necessarily. But again, it's certainly a fascinating and central subject to, I would say, to Zen. Like when Bodhidharma defines Zen, these times, he used only eight Chinese characters, right? Which was in Japanese, Jikishi, Ninshin, Kensho, Joubutsu. Directly pointing to each person's mind, see your nature, become a Buddha, right? So see your nature. That's Kensho. show means nature right can show see your nature um so you know i'm hesitant to go go go at length and i'm also aware of time so so i'll just leave it at very insatisfactory answer to you but i i would say it's it's matter of you know uh either like you know suzuki roshio sometimes through the fog right and then your your clothes are getting more and more soaked in and before you know it suddenly it's like everything is wet, right?

[54:50]

So there's one way that can arise, right? And there's another way where like literally the rain is pouring on you and it's just like you're completely wet, you know, kind of in that one instant. Certainly, you know, there's diversity of the way it kind of can be arising, but it is a possibility for all of us, right? Um, it's yeah. So that, that, the book that we are talking about is talking about it at length in 30 different ways. So, but from, you know, from, from the particular point of view of that tradition and that way of practicing. So it's also not something to be taking as one, one size fits all for sure. And with that, I believe we are at time. So thank you very much for coming and for your attention and for your time. It was wonderful to meet you, even if virtually, but maybe at some point we'll meet in person.

[55:51]

So thank you very much for having me. Are we going to put Kogan's contact information in the people? Yep. I was going to do that just after the end of lecture chant. Thank you. OK. Thank you, Kogan-san. If you would like to offer three bows, we will start the vows. Beings are blessed, I vow to awaken with them. Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to become it. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. Beings are numberless.

[56:51]

I vow to awaken with them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. Me are numberless. I vow to awaken with them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. Thank you so much, Kogan.

[58:12]

We have announcements now. Good morning and welcome to Berkeley Zen Center, remote version. Welcome to those online with us, all of us, and special welcome to anyone who is here for the first time. My name is Ben Claussen. I'm co-Saturday Director here at Berkeley Zen Center. About our temporary Zendo closure, as of now, we are planning to return to our regular schedule. with masking optional, but keep an eye on the website and listserv for late breaking news. On Monday, Michael Dono will give a wayseeking mind talk at 8 a.m. in the online Zendo. Next Saturday's Dharma talk will be given by Mary Duryea. The Wednesday drop-in group meets from 7.10 to 9 p.m. The group particularly welcomes newcomers to Zen practice. For more information, contact Ikushin Jerry Oliva.

[59:14]

Her email is in the links for recurring activities on the website, berkeleyzencenter.com. BCC also has a queer dharma group that meets in the community room on the second and fourth Mondays of the month from 7 to 8, 15 p.m. This group welcomes those who identify as LGBTQ+, as well as those who may be questioning and exploring their relationship. these aspects of identity. Contact Shoday Haxbaker or Pauline Kirshen for more information. For more information about our programs or membership, please check the Zoom chat or visit our website, berkeleyzencenter.org. You can also when you're back here in the flesh. To make a donation to support BCC, you can visit our website and click on the generosity tab. and feel free to unmute yourselves and we can all greet each other.

[60:17]

Thank you, Kogan. Thank you so much. Thanks, Kogan. That was wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Kogan. Come back and get in person sometime. Could you hold up the book again? It's In This Body. It's either on Shambhal's website or any platforms. It was published on 17th June. How many people were on this? I didn't feel mansplained at all. I think you did a great job. Thank you, Kogan. Thank you. Take care. Thanks, Ben. right now. Thank you. Thank you. Stay healthy, everyone. All right. Bye.

[61:19]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_92.99