Recording in progress. So we've been studying the Lotus Sutra in this practice period and continuing on with that deep dive into the Holy Lotus Sutra. This morning I'd like to talk about chapter 20 and the Bodhisattva Sadhapati Bhutta. which is usually translated as bodhisattva never disparaging, bodhisattva never despising. He's a bodhisattva who would never say a good word about anybody. This is a wonderful book, Thich Nhat Hanh, Opening the Heart of the Cosmos, Insights on the Lotus Sutra. Really great commentaries on the Lotus Sutra in here. So, I would like to read you some of it.

[01:04]

From the very beginning, where Thich Nhat Hanh talks about kind of, and Linda and I talked about this in our classes as well, you know, the ground from which the Global Sutra arose, like what was happening around the first century before the common era. when the Mahayana Buddhism was beginning to form. It was a movement within established Buddhism, and not always so popular, it turns out. As the Buddhist monastic institution developed, the conservative tradition became rather inflexible and insular. Rather than seeking ways of teaching and practice that would be useful in everyday life, The monastic Sangha had a tendency to devote itself to analyzing points of abstract philosophical doctrine, focusing on study of the Abhidharma, the commentary collection. These are additional works written to systematize and further expound the teachings of Buddhism.

[02:10]

A hair could be split many times. And thus, the prose of the Abhidharma is full of minutely split hairs. And the prose of the Abhidharma analysis, followed upon analysis, and the monk scholars began to enjoy analysis for analysis' sake. In this environment, the practice of mindfulness was there, but it could be rather sterile and mechanical, not leading to peace, joy, happiness, and freedom right in the present moment. The method of interpreting, understanding, and practicing the teachings became quite rigid, with a hard-line attitude that was difficult for others to accept. Along came the Mahayana, along came the Lotus Sutra and kind of blew all that up. But it was apparently not without controversy. And the Lotus Sutra is full of examples of that and talks about that a lot.

[03:20]

For example, the last class, we talked about chapter 13, where it talks about, you know, crummy things that might happen to you because you uphold the Lotus Sutra. Chapter 13, it talks about it as though it would be something in the future, but probably it was something that was happening at the time. Like, these people, sort of, well, revolutionary, I think is the appropriate word for it. It was revolutionary. And it was not easy for a lot of people to accept. You know, this radical notion of, let me see, I don't want to get too ahead of myself. Oh, why not? Sure.

[04:22]

So, the other day, someone was asking about what we're going to be doing here the day after tomorrow, Memorial Day. In here, we're going to chant the whole Lotus Sutra as a community. All are invited. You are all invited. And you can come for all of it. or you can come for part of it. I need to send something out to the listener again, but you know, if you're coming, eat a big breakfast. You can bring a spill-proof water bottle into the Zendo with you. I think we will have cough drops available. And enough of a critical mass of people chanting that people can drop out and drop in. So you know, it's okay if you have to go to the bathroom, for example. Nobody can just like chant. Well, I shouldn't say nobody.

[05:24]

Maybe somebody could chant the whole thing. Which will take about seven and a half, eight hours, roughly. That's what it takes. I've done this several times at Tassajara. And I recommend it. It's because, as we were saying in the class, you know, you can relate to it intellectually, but I don't think that's the best way to relate to the Lotus Sutra. Better to just let it wash over you or wash in you or flow through you. That's my attitude. So, this person, you know, there was a broken link in the website. There was supposed to be more details about it. They said, there was nothing there. Okay, we fixed that. We fixed that. But I said, if you want to talk about it, We can talk. And they actually came to the temple and we had a pretty intense conversation for over an hour.

[06:25]

And sometimes I think when you're like really into talking about the Dharma with somebody, like having an intense coursing in the Dharma discussion with somebody, things are likely to come out of your mouth like, whoa, did I just say that? I think this is the origin of a lot of these koans that we study, actually. That kind of feeling, you're in a different space, and then the words arise somehow. I said, the Lotus Sutra, the gist of it? You are Buddha. Can you handle it? There you go, two sentences. Short sentences. You are Buddha. Can you handle it? Can you accept that? Is it too much? I think for a lot of people it is too much.

[07:27]

You know, we are all Buddha in the ultimate dimension. The Sambhogakaya Buddha that Lynn and I were talking about the last class. In the ultimate realm we are all Buddha. In the historical realm, the physical realm, we all have the potential to become a Buddha. Everybody, each person, every body. The only requirement for being a Bodhisattva is birth in a human body. Everybody in here is a Bodhisattva. We are all Bodhisattvas in training. I could just keep going, just repeating that, because I think that helps too. The Lotus Sutra uses a lot of skillful means to sort of soften you up to this idea. For example, Linda and I have talked about this as well, the way initially, Shakyamuni Buddha gives a prediction of future enlightenment and Buddhahood.

[08:43]

to his disciple, Shariputra, who was renowned to be, you know, one of the wisest in the Sangha. And, you know, I think everybody could be like, well, that makes sense, that tracks, sure, yeah, Shariputra, sure, yeah, would be a Buddha someday, that makes sense. And then, you know, he gives prediction of enlightenment to the Venerable Worthies who he practiced with before he was enlightened, who, the ascetics that he delivered the first Dharma talk to. And you can be like, yeah, okay, I can imagine that. There are going to be Buddhists in the future. And then as the sutra goes along, chapter after chapter, all the way up to chapter 13, more and more and more people are getting predictions of enlightenment. And so you might be thinking, I see where you're going with this. I see where you're going with this. Yeah. That could be me, too. In fact, in the sutra, sometimes they're going like, could be.

[09:46]

It's kind of dramatic. They have their hands in bed showing like, I wonder, is he going to give me a potential enlightenment? Yes! It's all of us, you know, to soften us up to that idea, which is not an idea. It is, in fact, for me, reality. This is the reality. We are all Buddhas in the ultimate realm and we all are capable of being Buddhas in this life, in this body. As Shakyamuni says at the end of the verse section of chapter 16. I will paraphrase it. All I ever think about is how do I get people to become Buddha in this lifetime? That's the end of chapter 16. Paraphrased by me. I don't have a copy of the actual sutra with me. So, yeah, Sada Pariputta, which the translation that Lynn and I have been using the most, I keep saying all the translations are good, but this one by Shinazaki Zipperen and Earhart that we've been using, which is the translation that we will be chanting

[11:03]

on Memorial Day, and we're going to project it on the wall, so you don't have to have a physical copy of the sutra. People will just be able to read off the, yeah, it's going to be projected up here. And we'll just scroll along and keep chanting. They call him Bodhisattva, never unworthy of respect. And I really like this translation, but I don't like, I don't like, what they mean, Sadhapati Buddha, It means that he was always telling people that they were not unworthy of respect. Yeah. And you know, you might feel like you're unworthy of respect or like, no, no, no, no. And more commonly, you'll hear never disparaging. That is common translation for his name, the Bodhisattva never disparaging. And in case you're wondering what happened to A.H. Dogen, This calligraphy here is done by our friend, Kanchin Shvani Grievemeyer, who has a calligraphy practice.

[12:14]

And this is the beginning of the chapter. It's the beginning of chapter 20 in English translation. So it says, The Bodhisattva Never Disparaging, on the top. That's the title of the chapter. She made this calligraphy for our beloved Abbot Hozon because this morning I invited my friend Ben Gustin. Hi Ben. Come down because Wait. Countless Kalpas in the past. Ben and I wrote a song about the Bodhisattva Never Disparaging. And it became quite popular.

[13:18]

I would hear periodically somebody saying, oh yeah, we sang Sashin and at the end of the Sashin they played the recording or we all sang the song together. And Alan really liked that song. I remember we were in Mel's house and I had a cassette tape, remember those? I put it in the poop box and I played it for Mel and Alan and I forget whoever else was there, Linda, and he was like, what? What he was really surprised about was when I sang about, you know, they beat him and pelted him. I said, really? I'm like, dude, it's in the sutra, it's chapter 20. The song wrote itself. So Alan sang it a lot. He even recorded it. And so Kanchen made this calligraphy for him. And when Linda and I got back from New Orleans, there was a real surprise for us that Lori had it framed and gave it to us.

[14:29]

It's so sweet. Now it's like my most prized possession. I really love it. So, yeah. Difficult to accept. Difficult to accept. The revolutionary aspect of the Echiyana endures. Still difficult to accept. Still difficult to accept, I think, for most people. In the song, One of the lines is, they all had self-esteem issues. Why were the establishment, basically. Chapter 20 is about this monk who just, his entire practice is, he just goes up to people and he bows to them and he says, I could never find you unworthy of respect for you are practicing the way and we'll all become Buddhas.

[15:32]

That was his entire deal. That was his entire practice. He just went around and did that to everybody he met. Kind of wacky. But this is kind of really in the spirit of the Lava Sutra, you know, you will be Buddha, or you are Buddha. Can you handle it? They can't handle it, right? That's what happens. He's actually not a popular person at all, but he's never dissuaded. He just keeps doing it. Single-mindedly, that's his practice. The chapter, as I see it, is setting up this tension between the revolutionary aspect of the Lotus Sutra and establishment Buddhism at the time, around the first century before the common era.

[16:33]

in India, as I read about, as Thich Nhat Hanh described so eloquently, you know. It was frightening to them, you know. So it wasn't received so well. And scholars say that chapter 20, probably, you know, it talks about this mythical Bodhisattva, but probably has a lot of, like, this is what was actually happening. with this hearty band of people who were compiling and preaching the Lotus Sutra. So Ben and I practiced a long time together in Tassahara. We sat at Tangaryo together. And I don't know if you were there when, well, Blanche Roche, she did a, what do they call it, where she invited a lot of other teachers.

[17:42]

The first one, I know you were there, and she did it again, when she invited teacher from Shasta Abbey, Reverend Mayon Elbert, remember her? Oh yeah, so good. So, Reverend Mayon Albert, who is still the abbot at Shasta Abbey and a very kind and very wise Zen teacher, she gave a Dharma talk. And you know how it is with Dharma talks sometimes, you may not remember much of it, but you remember how it made you feel. And I remember her as being very warm-hearted, very relatable, very loving. I remember one thing in particular that she said. She had this British accent, which is like, they would call it a cut glass accent, upper class.

[18:43]

So in her talk, she said, I'm a beastly, beastly person. I couldn't possibly have beauty of nature. She said that a couple of times. And I mean, it's so relatable, right? I'm a beastly, beastly person. I couldn't possibly have Buddha in nature. I think, you know, we all have that feeling sometimes. Who, me? I can't see it, you know? And in Tatsahara, we have to make our own entertainment. So for days and days after she left, People were walking around Tassara going, I'm a beastly, beastly person. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. She's really a great teacher. But, you know, that's the deal, isn't it? I want to remind you.

[19:52]

We wrote this song in 2001. This book was published in 2003. What? The Bodhisattva removes the feelings of worthlessness and low self-esteem in people. How can I become a Buddha? How can I attain enlightenment? There's nothing in me except suffering, and I don't know how to get free of my own suffering, much less help others. I am worthless. Many people have these kinds of feelings, and they suffer more because of them. Never Disparaging Bodhisattva works to encourage and empower people who feel this way, to remind them that they too have Buddha nature. They too are a wonder of life, and they too can achieve what a Buddha achieves. This is a great message of hope and confidence. This is the practice of a Bodhisattva in the action dimension.

[20:55]

Of course, you know, as I'm fond of saying, I would not be my teacher's student if I didn't hold up the other side. Bodhisattva never disparaging was also kind of a shmenjik, you know, like an annoying guy. In your face, like, did I ask you to come up and tell me that I'm going to be a Buddha someday? Get out of here, you nut. And he was kind of a nut, you know, a fool, right? Dungshan, founder in China, great teacher Dungshan, who wrote the Song of the Jewel Mirror Samadhi. The end of the Song of the Jewel Mirror Samadhi, it says, with practice hidden, function secretly. I'm a fool. I'm like an idiot. Suzuki Roshi, You know, as I said in the last class, I've really been enjoying reading Suzuki Roshi's lectures about the Lotus Sutra.

[22:05]

In the transcripts, it'll tell you where he's laughing. It's like brackets and it says, laughs. Suzuki Roshi said, in the Lotus Sutra also, There's a famous bodhisattva. He used to bow to everyone he met. Laughs. Everyone. He bowed to everyone. You may think that is very foolish. Laughs again. But that is bodhisattva mind. Yeah. Just this single-minded devotion to... Devotion to the notion. Well, it's not a notion. For me, it's reality. You are all Buddha in the ultimate realm.

[23:06]

And you all have the ability to become Buddha in the historical, physical realm. This is the truth of the Little Sutra. The truth that we are invited to live. You can handle it. If you can handle it, if you can let that in. So I think that the Lotus Sutra does a very good job of softening us up to this idea. And little by little, various ways, we can allow that in. And, you know, Zazen is, as I said in the last class, you know, again quoting Suzuki Roshi, how you understand Sambhogakaya Buddha.

[24:09]

When you sit, you just sit. But your heart's beating and you're breathing. There's activity. It's not volitional activity. But you are Buddha in that moment. There's a saying in Zen, one minute of zanzen is one minute of Buddha. The Shuso gave me a koan. Maybe you don't realize he gave me a koan, Shuso. But the Shuso, because we were talking about the Lotus Sutra and this very devotional aspect, it is devotional Buddhism. Mark asked me, could zazen be devotional practice? And I said, yes, without hesitation. But it's a koan for me now, because how? My teacher's favorite question, how?

[25:12]

How is it devotional practice? So because it's a koan, I'm not answering. I'm just sharing that. That's what I've been turning. lately a lot, so thank you Mark. So yeah, Ben, really thank you for coming. And you know, this is building up too. I have been asked to sing this song many times, many, many times. I was really relieved when nobody asked me to sing it for our recent skid night. I was kind of nervous that would happen, so I wound up writing another song about the Lotus Sutra. That's what I did with that energy. But nobody did, and I asked Ben if he could come and sing with me, because in the past, When I've been, I sometimes like command performance.

[26:15]

Well, of course, we're having a skid night, Ben, you will sing that song. Oh, oh, yes, okay, okay, Rosie, I'll sing it. But my heart is like, well, I'd rather get into it if Ben were here. Yeah, so we wrote this in the summer of 2001. And, yeah, Ben and I, we, we, we, We started in Tassar at the same time. We sat Tangario together. And then, yeah, my first summer, my first guest season, I was on Diving Room Crew. I don't know what you were doing. Something else. Not on Diving Room Crew. And the next summer, I was in the kitchen, I was a guest cook, and Ben was the baker. And I made so many pizzas. And Ben made so much pizza dough. So I could make so many pizzas. Oh my God, I made a lot of pieces that summer. And so we were working in the same space, i.e.

[27:17]

the kitchen, a lot. My kitchen practice was never very good. You know, we were supposed to be working in silence and I had a hard time with that. And yeah, I talked a lot when I should have been talking. But you know, it's really hard work, I will say that. We worked hard and we had a good time. And I would tease Ben a lot. Because he's so teasable. Because he's a very dear friend. And I love him. So I would tease him. And Ben would say, that's okay. I would never disparage you. Because I know that you will be a Buddhist okay. And that was the inspiration for writing this song. And we're going to sing. So maybe I think it's time for you to come up here with me, Ben. Let's do this. Do I keep this thing on?

[28:18]

I just want to invite you, if you know the song, please sing with us. Even if you don't know the song, you can hum along with us. It's pretty easy to pick up the chorus, I think. And the most important line is, I love you. So hear that line. That's true. Yeah, that's the most important line. Yeah, that is the most important line. Do you want to say anything else before we get started? I'd love to tell a quick story, if I could, about that summer. I arrived at Tassajara with a backpack. And they gave me some food. which was really great. And then, you know, Zen people will put you right to work. So after the food, they said, OK, so you're on dishes.

[29:19]

I said, great. I can do dishes. And I went to the dish shack, which is a small building. And there was steam coming out. And there were these bald-headed people in there kind of working in the background. I couldn't really see what was going on. But everyone was working really hard, really fast. And then the door, I remember it being kicked open, and this cloud of steam came out. And there was a man in a cowboy hat with a mustache. I believe you had a mustache at that time. Oh yeah, yeah. And an apron that was soaking wet. And he looked at me, dead in the eye, and he said, Welcome to my shack of joy! And I thought, This guy knows something that I need to know. So I stuck with him. I forgot about that fuzzy caterpillar I used to put on my poop. Same glasses, I think. Similar.

[30:21]

Similar, yeah, yeah. If I didn't wear these glasses, people wouldn't recognize me. Drink water. Oh yeah. Please. This is very exciting for me. I haven't seen you in so long at all, so this is, I'm so happy. Therefore, I'm a little nervous. Me too. When we sang it at Skit Night on July 4th, 2001, I introduced it by saying, we're in the mountains, and we're making music, so it must be mountain music. There's a book called the Voda Sutra you really ought to know about. A holy book that has the power to remove all fear and doubt.

[31:26]

And this book tells the story of a man who means the world to me. who could just as well have been a woman if not for male hegemony. They call him the Bodhisattva Never Disparage or the Bodhisattva Never Despise. And I'm making it my life's ambition to see the world through his pure eyes. And he says, I would never disparage you or keep you at arm's length. Where you only see your weaknesses, I only see your strength. I will never despise you, or put you down in any way. Because it's clear to me, I can plainly see, you'll be a Buddha someday. I love you. Now a Bodhisattva, never disparaging, lived countless, countless in the past. In a time of the counterfeit Dharma,

[32:29]

And he was something of an outcast Because the monks and nuns of his day Were noted for their arrogance and vanity And these were the folks who exercised Great power and authority But my boy never concerned himself If they treated him like a freak He'd just bow to everybody equally And these are the words he'd speak I would never disparage you or keep you at arm's length. Where you only see your weaknesses, I only see your strength. I would never despise you or put you down in any way. Because it's clear to me, I can plainly see you'll be a Buddha someday. I love you. He never read or recited the scriptures much. He only liked to practice respect But the monks and nuns of his time Didn't mean it like you might expect Instead they cursed him and reviled him And they wished that he would go Because they all had self-esteem issues Like most everyone else I know They'd beat him and puzzle him with clubs and stones And they tried to drive him away But he'd just run off to a safe distance

[33:53]

And then he'd turn around and say, I would never disparage you or keep you at arm's length. When you only see your weaknesses, I only see your strength. I would never despise you or put you down in any way. Because it's clear to me, I can plainly see you'll be a Buddha someday. I love you. And so it went on. For years and years, he was the target of scorn and abuse. Yet still our hero shed no tears, nor did he ever wonder what's the use. Until he reached the end of his natural lifespan, and he laid down fixing to die. And then he heard the Holy Lotus Sutra getting preached up in the sky. And his life was extended for millions of years, and he's living to this day. And in the pages of the Lotus Sutra, You still can hear him say, I would never disparage you or keep you at arm's length.

[35:00]

When you oversee your weaknesses, I oversee your strength. I would never despise you or put you down in any way. Because it's clear to me, I complain to see you'll be a Buddha someday. I love you. I love you. I love you. Or we can tell some of our stories. We can tell stories. Hi! So I have one question and a comment. So one question is... For the benefit of the people in the Zoom room, we'll use the microphone.

[36:09]

First of all, I love the song. Beautifully sang in plenty. Thank you so much. It has been my understanding that it's not like we're trying in the future to someday become a Buddha, but that we are in this moment, in the present time, all Buddhas. So that's one thing I'd like your reflection on. And the other thing is my brain has really a lot of problems with double negatives. And so instead of not disparaging what is some ideas of a positive word I Respect. I respect it. Thanks. Yeah. Well, so like we said, we're all Buddha in the ultimate realm, right? There's a fascicle in Shobha Ganso, Dogenbro, called Busho, Buddha Nature.

[37:11]

And, you know, Dogen loved wordplay. He liked to do magic with words. And so he took this teaching of we all have Buddha nature and changed it to we all are Buddha nature. We are Buddha nature. We are of the nature of Buddha. In the ultimate realm, this is something we all share. Every human is Buddha in that respect. and capable of being a Buddha through practice and realization. So, this is what the sutra is teaching, the little sutra, and this is what Sadhapari Buddha, that's kind of fun, I taught myself how to say that in Sanskrit. Bodhisattva never disparaging. What he's saying is, you know, yeah,

[38:13]

You might think you're not worthy of respect, but I'm telling you, you are worthy of respect and you will be a Buddha. So yeah, it's operating the two realms, the two truths. Sure. Yes, Sue. Thank you both. I feel the guitar sound was so beautiful. And the song came to it in a way that never has before. And I'm so glad you did this. That's because that's the real thing. Tell me how you wrote the song, right? I just said the aspiration was you tease you and you'd say, that's okay. I would never despair of you. But, you know, and it's like

[39:15]

Nobody's gonna disparage me so I could sing a little today, along with you. It was really, whatever came out, came out, it was just precious. The Sambhogakaya, the Chana Buddha, the Sambhogakaya, that body of Buddha, that's our potential, is that what you said in the class? Can you go back to that? Oh gosh, must have. The first thing I said about The Trikaya, the Three Bodies of Buddha, is difficult to talk about. And Suzuki Roshi, in his Lotus Sutra lectures, he talks about it a lot because he wanted his students to have at least some understanding of that because I think he thought it was important because he says that the Lotus Sutra is being preached by the Sambhogakaya Buddha, which is how we understand, you know, like a cosmic Buddha. Because when you get to chapter 16, which talks about the immeasurable lifespan of the Buddha, well, how do you understand that?

[40:19]

You know, because Buddha was greatly chanted in breakfast this morning, you know, born, practiced, enlightened, and died in Krishna Dara, you know? But in the Lotus Church, he's saying he's been alive and preaching and practicing for millions of years. So it's understood as that's the body of Buddha, like this cosmic Buddha, who operates through us. When we say we are all Buddha nature, we are all potential Buddha, that is the Sambhogakaya operating through us. Your song makes it clear. Oh! Thank you! I mean, it's like... Yeah, I think you can really get bogged down talking about the theory and the trikaya oi. But the spirit, the devotional spirit of it, that's what the sutra is trying to get at with all its amazing imagery and bending, space and time.

[41:31]

It's all just in the interest of softening us up to the idea that, oh yes, actually we are within nature. Completely, yeah. Yes, Mira? So, a more serious question. I thought you were implying that before Mahayana Buddhism, Theravadan Buddhism did not believe that we had Buddha nature. I don't know, I can't speak to that. If it sounded like I was implying that, I'm sorry, because I don't know. Well, I thought that was actually your whole point, was that the Lotus Sutra came along and said that we have Buddha Nature, and before that, the Tiruvati elite must have thought only they could attain enlightenment and other people didn't have Buddha. Well, that's the revolutionary aspect.

[42:32]

I don't know whether the establishment Buddhism at that time believed that everyone had Buddha nature or not. I cannot speak to that. But what was revolutionary about the Lotus Sutra and Mahayana that was burgeoning at that time was they were saying, yes, absolutely, you do. And that is counter to some of these Theravon teachings which basically are aimed at you perfecting yourself to become an Arhag. Right? So that's what's different about it. Didn't they believe that anyone who practiced and studied could become an Arhag or not? Yeah, I think if you were born into the right circumstances and you were supported to be a monastic, And that's kind of limiting already. Whereas, yeah, the revolutionary aspect with Mahayana is like, it's anybody.

[43:34]

Anybody. Okay, I'm gonna pursue this further. Thank you. Cool. On the way to the microphone, I wonder if you can say a little something about people not feeling so great about themselves, and I can't be a guru to them so bad, and Suzuki Roshi saying we're half good and we're half bad. How do we kind of incorporate that into our practice? I think it's very, very important that we accept ourselves exactly as we are. Yes. Accepting ourselves exactly as we are, you are broken. Can you handle it? I can handle it. Thank you very much.

[44:37]

Thank you, Greg and Ben, for that wonderful song and the talk. And I felt the spirit of Hozan Roshi as you were singing it, especially seeing Genko next to you. And I thought Hozan wrote that song, because it's on his wonderful CD, Everything is Broken. But it sounds like Hozan, the words. So I just love hearing music here. I wish we had more music, even though you couldn't say champion's music. So I just wanted to express gratitude, but also ask, why is there not more music in the Zen tradition? And I'll kick out Han, supposedly. Well, I'm here to go to the Plum Village song, though. There's a number of songs they sing together. I think that's a wonderful practice. So thank you. Can I speak to that? I was wondering if you were going to have some time. All right. So I'll hit you up for a gig. I have a couple of songs that are pertaining to Zen Buddhism. I call them Zen Buddhist campfire songs.

[45:37]

So I wonder if I could come here and play them. Yes. And then also, there's a really beautiful version of The Refuges that some friends of mine composed. Poly refuges. So that, we could do that as well and try to do some more participatory music. Yeah, okay, great, we'll get that. I don't see anything. Yeah, there's a hand down. Yeah, it's Heather. Thank you, Ross. But if you want to speak to that question as well, it's a good question, why is there not more music? We chant. It's the same verb in Espanol, cantar. In Shasta Abbey, where Reverend Neon is the abbot, they do a playing song by Gregorian. It's pretty cool.

[46:42]

Hi, Heather. Hi. So my question actually builds nicely after what you were just previously saying. I was thinking about how embodied Zen practices and chanting and singing are also really embodied activities. And I was wondering how your experience, how do you feel, what are the feelings when you chant? compared to sing the Lotus Sutra? Like, what is that experience like for you? For both of you, I'd ask that question. Oh, by the way, we didn't mention when Ben and I lived in Tassajara, we chanted the Avatavsaka Sutra together, the whole thing. What took us about, what, a year and a half, two years?

[47:43]

On personal days, we get together a chance, sometimes for two hours. And sometimes people would go, and a lot of people joined us. There was another person, Lance, started out doing it with us. But then he left Tassajara. Ben and I saw it through the whole thing. I was just telling him this morning, I'm on my second go-around, about two-fifths of the way through it. And we were doing that in San Antonio. and projecting the sutra onto one of the walls in the Zendo in San Antonio. And that's what we're going to do Monday. We're going to project the Lotus Sutra right up here. You can join us for any part of it. Another plug. And I thought, this is great. Maybe I can keep this going when I get to Berkeley. That's funny.

[48:44]

That's funny to me. Because there's so much going on in this temple all the time. No way. No way I'm going to try to add one more thing. Not that way. Okay, I forgot where we were going. We're talking about the difference between chanting and singing. Chanting and singing, yeah. I mean, I don't know. How do you think about it? Well, I remember one time at Tassahara when we were translating the Aftam Saka Sutra, it was really grooving. It was like really happening. And we had a time that we were going to end. And I remember I hit the bell and you got mad at me. You were like, oh man, that felt like jazz. We never had that groove. So there's that. And I guess the feeling that I get when I sing this song with Greg goes back to that feeling of joy. So it feels when I sing it, and we harmonize, there's something about it that always brings me a tremendous amount of joy.

[49:53]

And it's maybe just amplified, like I could chant the Lotus and I would feel some joy, but it's just more amplified when I sing it out. Yeah. Thank you. Anna. Thank you so much for your talk and performance. I wanted to know, what is it about being Buddha that some people can't handle? Yeah. So this is another thing that Linda and I talked about, about the skillfulness of the Lotus Sutra. Because it starts out in chapter one, Shakyamuni Buddha is up on Vulture Peak, surrounded by all these people and bodhisattvas and humans, non-humans, demigods, you name it, and they're all revering him, and this light comes out of the little tuft of hair between his eyes, and it's very trippy, and like, that's the Buddha, the Buddha, very exalted.

[51:08]

And then little by little, he's giving these various people, predictions of future enlightenment, explaining at length what their future Buddha-land will be like and what their name will be as a Tathagata in the future and softening us up to this idea because we do tend to have this idealistic notion. How could I be Buddha when I'm half good at that? How is it when Who is it who says, this very mind is Buddha? Masu, I think. Yeah. Really? This mind? You should see. It's a mess. You know? It's nutty up there. I don't know. I have difficulty accepting that. Contrasted to this exalted idea. That's the point. As I see it, I should say. As I see it, that's the point.

[52:09]

To get us to accept what's difficult to accept. And if you're not having a problem accepting that, good for you. Good for you. Yeah, I support you. You know, it's just, hopefully you have just like, not some ego involvement, like, oh, I'm all that, I found out, I'm Buddha, woohoo. You know, that's not gonna be very sustainable, I guarantee it. But just to, just to, Soften up to the idea and practice in that way. Is zazen devotional practice? Yeah, but how? How is it that one minute of zazen is one minute of Buddha? This is what I'm trying. Yeah, I think the images and the stories in the Lo Sutra really helped me with that.

[53:11]

And I think it's helped a lot of people because its popularity is enduring and also its revolutionary message. It's like the gospel of Christ 2,000 years later. Love who? What? You want me to love who? That's ridiculous. Very hard to accept. And yeah, there it is. Yeah, go on. No, I want to ask you. You had a dream. before you wrote this song. Do you remember telling me about that dream? No. OK, so you told me that you had a dream. And in the dream, there was like a little carnival guy. And he was coming up to you and tugging on your shirt. And he could say, hey, buddy. Hey, buddy. Lotus Sutra. Lotus Sutra. Tell people about it. Tell people about it. He had like a little cigar. And then you wrote the song after that. You know that? That too. Yeah. That too. Oh, that was so cool. Yeah, that's an important fact.

[54:17]

So you receive transmission from the little car who got it. And now look, you're doing it. You're telling people about it. Oh, it's so great. I want to say one more thing, if I can. Oh, absolutely. The teacher that we studied a lot at that time was Banke. Remember Banke? Oh, yeah. And Banke's whole point is that you are Buddha. But he says, don't get enlightened. Just stay enlightened. And so this idea that for some reason, we can't accept that we can stay enlightened. This is hard to do. That's my friend. Which I expected. So the one is holding up the structure.

[55:06]

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