Mary Beth, can you sound check? Can you sound check? How do we sound? One, two, one, two. One, two. Yeah, check one, two. How does it sound? How does it sound? I think it's good. Okay, great. Can you say a few words again, too? How are you today? That sounds good. That sounds good. Thank you. Thank you.

[08:48]

The party's not long enough. I know. See that? Yeah. What was it going on there? Yeah, I think I should go there. Maybe you're right. This side? Yeah. New stuff. Unsurpassed, penetrating and perfect dharma is rarely met with a hundred thousand million kalpas, having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept.

[18:30]

I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Good morning, everyone. It's a great pleasure to introduce my dear old friend, our number brother, John Bush. John began meditating and studying Buddhism in college. Peace Corps in Thailand got him started on the Theravada path, and later he slightly overcame his aversion to former Zen practice at San Francisco Zen Center and here at Berkeley Zen Center. where he held a number of practice positions, including Project Manager, Saturday, and Sushi Director. John was ordained and transmitted by Byka Pratt-Heaton and currently co-leads the Mounted-Health Group in Pleasant Hill with Leslie Bartholick. John is retired from Berkeley Lab working on sustainable energy, married to fellow SANGA member Colleen and Smitten with their Aussie, Mojo.

[19:35]

Thanks for speaking with us today, John. Good morning. It's nice to see many old friends and new friends here. So today I want to speak about what considers the two truths, the relative truth and the absolute truth. So as people we tend to see and live in the relative world, we go about our day discerning different choices according to what we see and what we understand about things. We use logic and critical thinking or we go according to our feelings. in the moment to navigate our daily life. We can have glimpses of the absolute grace or somebody's kindness or some connection with nature or in other ways as well, art.

[20:55]

But we have problems and we find our way to practice As one Zen student once remarked to me, nobody ever takes up Zen practice on a winning streak. So taking up Buddhist practice, we become deeper truths such as impermanence and no self and ubiquity of suffering. But we live in a phenomenal world and when we practice, we start to move among these two ways of seeing things. So one way that's classically described how these two worlds interact is with the wave and water metaphor. So waves have formed, they're high or low, they're short or long,

[21:59]

So they have some characteristics that we can observe. And you could say that they have a beginning when it's way out there and there's no way to observe a wave. And at some point, the water rises, so the wave rises. and then it breaks against the shore, which would be considered the end of the wave. So there's the relative truth of the wave, but the wave is made of water and it comes from the water and it returns to the water. So in this way you can think about waves and water as the interplay of the two truths. Shinryu Suzuki talks about it in another way from Not Always So.

[23:12]

You may say that it is not possible to be ordinary and holy. When you think that understanding is one-sided, in Japanese we call someone who understands things from just one side, a tanban-tan. someone who carries a board on his shoulder. Because you carry a big board on your shoulder, so imagine the board is right here on the website. You cannot see the other side. You think you're just an ordinary human, but if you take the board off, you will understand, oh, I am Buddha too. How can I be both Buddha and an ordinary human? It's amazing. This is annoying. When you experience enlightenment, you'll understand things more freely. You won't mind whatever people call you. Ordinary mind? Okay, I'm ordinary mind. Buddha? Yes, I am Buddha.

[24:14]

How do I come to be both Buddha and ordinary mind? I don't know, but actually, and ordinary mind. Buddha in its true sense is not different from ordinary mind. An ordinary mind is not something apart from what is holy. This is a complete understanding of ourself. When we practice zazen with this, that is true zazen. We will not be bothered by anything. Whatever you hear, whatever you see, that will be okay. To have this feeling, it is necessary to become accustomed to our practice. If you keep practicing, you will naturally have this understanding and this feeling. you will have the actual feeling. Even though someone can explain what Buddhism is, if he or she does not have the actual feeling, we cannot call them a real Buddha.

[25:15]

Only when your personality is characterized by this can we call you a Buddhist. Nhat Hanh talks about how we enter practice through the door of knowledge, perhaps through a Dharma talk or a book like Send Mind, Beginnings Mind. But as we practice in our suffering lessons, eventually our idea is to experience and realize that our life is the path. A teaching that we often start to work with in Buddhism, the Four Noble Truths, the first teaching of the Buddha.

[26:21]

So generally, this speaks to relative truth. There's suffering, there's causes, there's ways to alleviate it, and then there's the path. which we normally chant here in the morning, says there's no suffering, no cause, no cessation, no path. So is that a contradiction? No. Because Avalokiteshvara is speaking in terms of absolute truth. When Avalokiteshvara says there's no suffering, he means suffering is made entirely of non-suffering elements. So those are just two, those are the two truths by side.

[27:21]

So there's value in working with both sides, the relative side and absolute side. And it's not either or, it's both and. We can't be free and happy just working with one side alone. So you can think of it as a progression from relative to absolute, but it doesn't necessarily have to go like this. According to Donovan Dharma, this is how it goes. First there's a mountain. Then there is no mountain. Then there is. Okay, you guys don't remember that? Okay, okay, all right. It's so deeply embedded that there's no point in, like, chuckling.

[28:25]

And I apologize to those of you who don't know Donovan. Anyway. So first there's a mountain. So we're observing a mountain in a sense, and that's kind of the normal way that we see mountains. We're driving by them, admiring them, or maybe we really enjoy them walking, going to walk in their midst. And then through some acquaintanceship, Buddhism, maybe we start to recognize the non- mountain elements of mountains and see that there is no mountain, actually, without everything else that creates a mountain. And then at some point, initiate, well, gee, it is a mountain after all, but it's truly a mountain in this sense because it includes both of these

[29:33]

So it sounds the same, but there's a totally different feeling to it in appreciation. So what keeps us from seeing say the absolute truth? there's kind of an initial kind of freeing of one's thinking because we tend to operate in a world of form. And, you know, through practice, we can find ways to let go of some of our ideas. That's actually the fundamental practice of Zazen.

[30:37]

And then we can start to experience things more directly and less filtered through our ideas. When I'm practicing with this, interplay of the two truths. And I'm in some difficulty, I have my ego-centered response, and I have an affront or hurt or anger or what have you. Sometimes I'm able to kind of step back from that, just recognize that this situation is something that I'm just reacting to on a relative level and start to open up to the bigger picture.

[31:42]

And sometimes I'm able to see how this situation I've helped create it, others have also helped create the situation. Sometimes, I mean, I would say always. not just the parties involved, the parties involved. And I can see the suffering that is part of my reaction. And I can imagine, perhaps, although I don't know the specifics, I can imagine that the other parties are also reacting from their suffering. And then what comes about from there is some mutual, some mutuality, our humanness and our suffering nature.

[32:47]

And then some compassion can arise from me in this situation. I'm just talking about my side of it. And then some kind of comfort comes about, even though, you know, there's the situation still exists that triggered me. But there's this, from this comfort then there's some spaciousness and then I feel like there's some, some kind of a path forward that emerges from that. And so what Thich Nhat Hanh calls that is seeing into the being in the situation. And that's a way of reconciling these two truths. This contemplation of the two truths, for me, brings to mind Case 19 and the Muankan, which is

[34:00]

Usually expressed as ordinary mind is the way. So I know we're all familiar with this. Actually, let me step that back. Some are familiar with this. I think a lot of the faces in this room are familiar with this. But if you're not familiar, here's the case. And I'm gonna read it from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones. by Paul Reps. It's a very old Zen book and it's an interesting translation. So in this one, he calls it every path. Joshu asked Nansen, what is the path? Nansen said, everyday life is the path. Joshu asked, can it be studied? Nansen said, said if you will be far away from it joshua asked if i do not study how can i know it is the path nonsense said the path does not belong to the perception world neither does it belong to the non-perception world cognition is a delusion non-cognition is senseless

[35:23]

If you want to reach the true path beyond doubt, place yourself in the same freedom as sky. You name it, neither good nor not good. At these words, Joshu was enlightened. Can I read it again? Say it again? Can I read it again? Sure. Joshu asks Nansen. Joshu is the student, Nansen is the teacher. What is the path? Nansen said, everyday life is the path. Joshu asked, can it be studied? Nansen said, if you try to study it, you will be far away from it. Joshu asked, if I do not study, how can I know it is the path? Nansen said, the path does not belong to the perception world. Neither does it belong to the nonsense world. Cognition is a delusion and non-cognition is senseless.

[36:28]

If you want to reach the true path beyond doubt, place yourself in the same freedom as sky. You name it, neither good nor not good. At these words, Joshi was enlightened. So, mumans. It's the Muman Khan, his collection. So Muman's comment is, Nansen could melt Joshu's frozen doubts when Joshu asked his questions. I doubt though if Joshu reached the point that Nansen did. He needed 30 more years of study. And the poem, the verse is, In spring, hundreds of flowers. In autumn, a harvest moon. In summer, a refreshing breeze. In winter, snow will accompany you.

[37:33]

If useless things do not hang in your mind, any season is a . It's kind of arousing, you know. poem, isn't it? And so apt, given that we've just harvest moon today, with the Bodhisattva ceremony. Another time with the poem? Yes. Okay. In spring, hundreds of flowers. harvest moon in summer a refreshing breeze in winter snow will accompany you if useless things do not hang in your mind any season is a good season for you

[38:36]

So what is this ordinary mind or everyday life? Ordinary mind is the way, everyday life is the path. So they're not referring to our notion, adult, idea-filled mind. Even though that is fairly... I think that they're referring to a mind that's... It's more of a kind of... Well, it's... The translation of this word ordinary is actually usual or normal. But that's also... normal in one sense.

[40:05]

So it's a mind that's engaged and one with its activity. So this is what they're pointing at. And it's the work period mind. You're in work period, you're practicing, you're given a task and you engage it mindful way, and you become one with your activity. That's the ordinary mind that they're speaking to. Sekita, who has another work of commentary on, cause it a mind of innocence.

[41:06]

So it's innocence in a well-balanced, harmonious state. So he points at the mind of a child in their earlier years before self-consciousness and separation. So it's It's a mind that's not full of our normal, well, the word normal, so I don't want to confuse the mind that we adults walk around with, typically. Robert Aitken says, what Joshu is actually asking is, how do I practice? So that's helpful, I think. And in usual sort of koan fashion, it doesn't really give you a place to stand, right?

[42:25]

It's not through the perception world or the non-perception world. It's an interplay. It's something we have to practice with. So Thich Nhat Hanh talks about four notions that impede our experiencing absolute truth. If we're coming from the relative and wanting to Go beyond that, go deeper. There's notions that we have that kind of get in the way. So those are self, human being, living being. So self is made of non-self elements.

[43:28]

I know you guys recently were studying the Genjo Koan, so that's pretty clear. The Genjo Koan is deeply speaking to that. Humans are made of and depend on non-human elements. None of us would be alive and could be here today without everything. All the natural systems, all the physics, the chemistry, all the beings, all the materials, the entirety of it all is supporting us. And that's, you know, the essence of deep ecology. And I think that's also the way that, it's the way that I experienced the absolute in my life when I would be out in the world, particularly in nature, in the mountains, and just like experiencing it directly, how everything there was supporting me.

[44:52]

And I was part of it. Another notion that we have is that the world is made of living beings and inanimate objects. But we see that living beings are made of non-living elements and we can develop a sense and an appreciation of things, things, but actually are living, and we see that things are not things. One way that I'm painfully experiencing how Colleen and I are

[46:04]

gonna move out of our house temporarily. So everything in there is gonna get moved. So everything in there is something that I'm interacting with. And I realized that, you know, they're not really my things. They're things that have me. because I have to pay attention to them. I have to decide where things are going, keeping or not keeping, et cetera, et cetera. And they totally have me. And I also appreciate so many of these things, even though some of them I haven't looked at in 30 years. That's how long I've been in my house. Tony doesn't even know this, but I've decided on the three boxes of letters.

[47:16]

So I have all these old letters. And I've been sort of mulling over, do I keep them? What do I do with these letters, which I have not looked at in 30 years? But somehow, they have a life. in me because I'm, I had to think about what am I gonna do with these letters? And what, you know, what should be coming up? So anyway, I've decided to let them go. They're going back to, you know, back to the earth, back to all that. So they're not thanks to me, you know, they represent Somebody else's communication with me often of love, so there's love involved in that.

[48:18]

And love isn't really in the letter, but it's also part of the letter, right? And it's pointing to that which circulates around and and the whole dynamic workings of everything. So I actually don't see things as things. I mean, that's come about through practice, but also I'm an engineer by training. And so I have kind of a different relationship. I like to know how they are, how they came to be, how they were put together and how they work. why they work the way they do, et cetera, et cetera. So I kind of go into depth with things sometimes. And for me, there's sort of a deep appreciation because actually what that represents is human civilization.

[49:27]

These things, say products, things that were manufactured, let's say, or created artistically. really things. But I think it's helpful to see that and recognize it. And I think some of the ills of our society are connected with the idea that things are just things. And so we're willing to treat them in ways that are say, not respectful and not appreciating, you know, what they've or, you know, appreciation doesn't mean that it's always good, right? Appreciating the bad that comes out of some things that we've created with unintended consequences.

[50:32]

So I think if we understand things more then a lot of problems go away, just as the previous two notions I was speaking of, self and just the human-centered view. So the last notion that Pat Hanh talks about is that impedes our recognition of absolute is lifespan and this is a real big one for us particularly as some of us are you know getting towards what's you know commonly you know referred to as our lifespan but really our life didn't begin

[51:39]

conception or birth everything that came before brought about our physical existence and at the time of our physical extinction everything continues So I think like looking at the two truths, looking at our own death is one way to grapple with the two truths. He gave the metaphor of a waterfall for our life. So it's another water metaphor that's, I think really, at least I found it really evocative. So before we existed, were the river.

[52:50]

The river is everything. Everything is in there in the river. Then you go over the edge and it's a waterfall. And the water separates into all these little droplets. A droplet is you. So you're part of the water, and all of a sudden you're cast out into the void, and you're the little droplet that's falling. And the falling time is your lifespan. Luckily ours is a little longer than those water droplets typically are. A matter of seconds. At the end, the water all gathers and the river continues on. So this is, I think this is, this is some imagery of maybe what our actual life is that can be helpful.

[54:06]

And we used to, Sometimes we would use that metaphor at the Zen Hospice Project where I served for a few years who were at the end of their life and the volunteers would come around and we would serve at the bedside and sometimes someone was looking for some way to understand going through what's happening to them. And we used to have this expression, it was up on an altar. It's a nice way of, there's the absolute of the river, then there's the phenomenal experience.

[55:12]

temporal experience of falling as a little individual and you may you don't in that time as a droplet you don't necessarily see yourself as coming from the river going to the river again you just you're just having your life So I think a very deep practice is to see if you can think of your life that way, your lifespan that way. Continuing on with this fan favorite of death,

[56:18]

I want to share the nine contemplations of Atisha. Have you heard these? Some of you have. Okay. The person in the room is shaking his head yes. Wow. That's pretty good. I'm definitely going to try that. So Tisha was a 11th century Tibetan scholar. And these contemplations bring us to the full awareness of death. So the first contemplation is death is inevitable. Our lifespan is decreasing continuously. Human life expectancy is uncertain.

[57:30]

Death will come regardless of whether we are prepared for it. Death has many causes. The human body is fragile and vulnerable. Our material illnesses cannot help us at the moment of death. Our friends cannot keep us from death. And our own body cannot help us. Really hammering it home, huh? There's no way out.

[58:36]

Every one of the things I'm sure was somebody's attempt to escape. So it's very understandable and normal to want to avoid thinking about this and also just, I mean, to avoid it, period. And the fear that's really behind our avoidance. And it's really, you know, put you in a corner, these nine contemplations. And if you take it in, it's a reality that just must be confronted.

[59:48]

No escape. And all of these are expressing, these are all understandable unexpressed expressions in the religion. world, but it brings you into contact without recourse into the absolute So how could it do that? So one thing is that paradoxically, it can give you an appreciation for the life we have. So knowing this really deeply, taking it in, not avoiding it can make you

[60:57]

Where we are, here we are. We're all sitting here in the sundown. We're in our space online. And that, you could call that grace. It's a grace that out of this really deeply threatening and difficult reality of our life, of our certain death. Something beautiful can come out of it. And also like an urgency that we need to spend our time well. So how many of us waste our time because we're not thinking about this? continuously wasting our time.

[62:05]

But if you're really like thinking about these contemplations, you'll want to use your time. And then also like appreciating what we have, how our body is supporting us now, all the things it can do. Actually, Almost every night now when I lie down and I, and I got my head on my pillow and I'm just, you know, starting to go to sleep. I almost always had this, it's just incredible to just be comfortable lying here. How incredible that is. And you know, it's not true for everyone. It's not true all the time. Sometimes there's pain and whatnot, but just like this incredible feeling of, wow, I can just lie here and I'm just in comfort. So like, something to appreciate. And of course, all of our friends and all of the things and the whole universe supports us, I think.

[63:12]

So that's one way that I think this absolute and the relative, they can, these two truths, can work, we can work with it and it can work on us. So we turn the, we can turn the wheel that way or be turned. So I think that's, yeah. We have five minutes if you'd like to. Yeah, I think I'd like to. Let's see if anybody has stimulated by this or not. I'll pass the mic around for anyone in the center with a question.

[64:13]

And if you're online, please raise your digital hand. And John, if you can keep an eye for it. If not, Mary Beth, just let us know if we're ignoring them. Is that fine? Yes, I can. I can't necessarily see everybody, if there's further pages, but I think I've heard that if hands get raised, then they do appear on this screen. I have a chance to say hello to the online folks. Yeah. The metaphor of the sky. Is that the river? How to understand the metaphor of the sky, somehow taking the issue. Which metaphor of the sky? Oh, you're talking about from the koan? Yes.

[65:14]

Yeah, I would say plausibly. I mean, I think it's pointing to a vastness, a boundlessness. That we're supposed to join. Well, we're already joined, I think. It's just, you know, do we see it? Do we feel it? I actually love the Shinriya Suzuki kind of emphasis on the feeling part. I think, you know, I think that's pointing to kind of the intuitive sense in this practice. And yeah, so the feeling, so, you know, do you feel that? Do you feel this sort of vastness in your experience ever?

[66:19]

I can vouch for the fact that you like to know how things work. And I really admire that line because I don't have that line. But I'm wondering if you can relate that to this. Absolutely. Because there are absolutely times when you're not going to know how something's working. And how do you practice with that? And can you connect that with these ideas? of the two truths? It's not that I have to know how things work. It's more that like I appreciate, I mean it's, you know, you could say I'm sort of a hobbyist engineer because really I don't. I mean there's different levels of understanding things and you know, there's untold countless levels that I never, you know, get to in my understanding of things.

[67:34]

But I think there's a sort of, there's a wanting to be competent and that's, you know, that's sort of a relative thing, right? I want to be, I want to feel competent to say a tool or machinery or something like that. And yeah, and then that also could be a trap, right? To feel, say, pride in being able to work something well, be good at it. And sometimes you and I, and I think the reason why you're asking that is sometimes you and I get into little tussles about it because I want you to understand how something works better than you are.

[68:41]

Or don't care. Yeah, and you don't care. You just, yeah. And sometimes that bothers me. But again, this is all kind of like phenomenal stuff. But I think for me also, by appreciating it, appreciating and appreciating the, you know, the people that conceived it and put it together and all the people who brought the material. from the ground, from living things that come together for this machinery to work. So I'm appreciating the interbeing of it, let's say. And I feel like I'm paying respect to it.

[69:44]

So it's a little like bowing and making offerings. It's kind of a, let's say, a more prosaic way that I can pay my respects. So that's part of, yeah, that's part of the preoccupation with, you know, wanting to know how things work. Anyway. It's time. Oh, it's time? Okay. Is there anyone online? There is one person online. Let's do one online. Okay. I'm sorry. appearing on the screen, and I don't recognize you, but please ask your question. It's Libby, John. Can you hear me? Good. John, I just wanted to say to thank you for a deeply moving and rich talk. I particularly want to thank you for taking us on that journey confronting death and also

[70:49]

Thank you so much for reminding us that in death there's life, and in our life there's death. Thank you so much. are inexhaustible I vow to grant them Dharma ways are boundless I vow to enter them Buddha's way is impossible I vow to become it beings are numberless I vow

[71:50]

to awaken with them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to enter them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. I vow to awaken with them Delusions are inexhaustible I vow to end them Dharma gates are boundless I vow to enter them Buddha's way is unsurpassable I vow to become it Good morning.

[74:33]

Welcome to Berklee Zen Center and a special welcome to anyone joining us for the first time. If you have any questions about our practice here at BCC, please speak with today's Zazen instructor, Karen Sundheim. On Monday morning at 8 a.m., Marlee Alexander will give the Wayseeking Mind talk, and that's on Zoom. On Friday, we also have another way seeking my talk from a giant Duki and that's online as well at 540 PM. And there's no in person Zazen that afternoon. Next Saturday, Gary Artem will deliver the lecture and our hot sushi set. On December 4th to 10th, the registration is open. Please visit the website for details. And also. Quick update. Most of you have heard, but we wanted to let everyone know that Hozon is at home recovering from an incomplete prostate surgery on Wednesday.

[75:40]

We'll be taking it easy for the next several days. His spirits are good and we are strategizing how Sashin will be led if he is unable to do part or all of it. He appreciates everyone's well wishes and notes. So keep them coming. Zen Yebs is a group for young people that meets in the BCC community room after Zazen on Thursday evenings. For details, contact Yoni Ackerman and his email for those who are online is in the Zoom chat. For more information about our programs or membership, please visit the website. And to make a donation, there's a donation box outside in the courtyard or click the generosity tab that's on our website. If I can get two volunteers to help clean up and wash the teacups after our informal tea today. Thank you.

[76:41]

And those in the Zendo, if you could please maintain silence until you're off the porch and then feel free to socialize. And if you're online, please feel free to unmute and greet one another. Thanks. Good to see you all. Good to see you, Hozan. In your little black square. Even though you're not seeing me. You're present. I'm here, though. We resonate with the black square. Thanks. Well, everyone. Bye.

[77:22]

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