And how was that? Much better. Better? Okay for everybody? You can all hear enough? Well, welcome to our third class. Tonight, we're going to talk about the third of the five featuring in this class. And we'll do more storytelling. and his background, and also I want to present you with some of the, some dialogue with Dengshun that we have as koans, or as part of his record. There's a wonderful book, which I will show you. This is called The Record of Dengshun. I believe it's still in print from the University of Hawaii Press.

[01:08]

It's compiled by William Powell, who I think he's been practicing now with the Santa Barbara Sangha that Joel Feigen is part of. And it's just a wonderful translation. It's one of the early Zen books that I purchased when I went to practice in the 80s. And it's also one that Sojan Roshi had some, I worked with Bill Powell on some of the translations. So it's connected. And of course, Donshan, is one of the defining ancestors of directly of our Soto Zen lineage.

[02:13]

Dongshan's name in Japanese in our lineage is Tozan Ryokai. In Soto is his name. And the So is the name of his disciple, Sozan. So that would be Sozan Honjaku, in Chinese is Kaoshan Benji. And so we're talking about, let me just give you some of the lineage. When we were talking last week about Wineng, Wineng lived supposedly from 638 to 713. And he had ancestors or disciples that became two of the remaining lineages in the Soto lineage and the Rinzai lineage.

[03:25]

And so, in the Sōtō, what became the Sōtō lineage, one of his disciples was ... ... and on the Rinzai side, it was ... ... goes from Chinyuang to Shito, or Sekito, to Yakusan, to Yunnan, or Ungdon Donggo, who was Dongshan's primary teacher. And then the other side, it went through from Nanyue to Great Matsu, or Baso Doitsu. And his heir in that lineage was Nangchoan, Puyuan, or Nansen, who famously is the main character in the koan where he cuts a cat in half.

[04:48]

We won't go into that today. Dongshan studied with a number of these people that were not so defined at that time. He was on a relatively compact mountainous area of southern China. And the serious Zen students often travel from teacher to teacher. to absorb their teachings. And I was thinking about it this afternoon and realized what an extraordinary wealth that was because Zen was just taking shape, being translated into Chinese culture. And each one of these teachers, while they had studied certainly the same

[05:54]

literature, the same suture literatures, each of them had a very decentralized mode of teaching. And, you know, the teachers of the students of that time made a point of going around and absorbing from all the teachers that they could, at least the adventurous ones. So, Before I go on, I just want to check if there's any, are there any open questions from last week? I really want to encourage you to speak out and ask questions. And I'll try to leave a bunch of room for that today, but left over from last week that you want to know about or that stayed on your mind as a question or a comment, whether it's here or out there in Zoom land.

[06:55]

Yeah, Evan. It's more just a comment about something that I... Speak up a little so people might be able to hear you. I just kept thinking about the third line of the poem, the Smyrnani's poem. There's different translations of that line. Did I write the Red Pine translation? What is that? What's his? I think it is, our Buddha nature is forever pure. He gives a couple different translations, like in his commentary. And I think one might have been, everything is emptiness. But it's just interesting to think about it. Think about those other translations too. Yeah, well, the translation that I read from Wang Buang, you know, obviously has been kind of crunched into shape so that it would rhyme, right?

[08:12]

But what the word is, I don't know in Chinese to see what the word is that being... variously translated as void or empty. You know, and of course, when we speak about emptiness, we're not speaking about some kind of tangible kind of gap or space. It's not emptiness like space, although space is on the other side. It's empty of self-nature. In other words, it's empty of constituent elements that you can point to as even in their minute constituent

[09:22]

you can objectify. So the emptiness means that what we identify as a self or identify as a thing or an object is the coming together of myriad causes and conditions. And so it's empty of abiding self. It's constant change. And, you know, this is one of the principles of Mahayana Buddhism. It's really there in all Buddhism. It's there in early Buddhism as well. But it comes more to the fore, particularly when you look at the Prajnaparamita schools and the Majamaka schools. you know, the Majomaka school and the Parajramita school is, you know, constantly pointing to this emptiness and it's making an effort to negate anything that we might want to see as an object or as fixed and pertains to our ideas of ourself and our world.

[10:45]

So it'd be interesting to look at what you If you have some energy, see if you can find out what the word is in Chinese that's being translated. Thanks. Clay. I had a question about what you just covered as we started today. And I was curious, as Zen is defining itself and getting established in China, you said it was in this certain part of southern China, kind of a concentrated part. other sects at the time. I'm curious, some of these teachers have hundreds of students, and it seems like there are large temples and things, and I'm just wondering if that kind of all grew up of its own, or what was going on, if there's any way of knowing that. Well, I think you have in these southern mountains. You also had the northern school, which we spoke of to some degree last week.

[11:51]

as another stream that flows from the fifth ancestor that goes through Shenshu. But you, as I'm about to talk a little more about Dungshan, Dungshan's, you had a whole bunch of different doctrinal schools. So Dungshan's first encounter with Buddhism was in Vinaya school, where the practice was the precepts. But you also had Pure Land schools. You had schools that grew up around principal sutras. You had the YN school. So you had all schools. One of the things about the Zen school, at least as I understand it, is that it tended to be situated in remote areas, not so much in kind of large urban areas or capital areas.

[13:07]

So it was not the orthodoxy as such. And in fact, even going back to Bodhidharma, when we look at Bodhidharma's story, talks about a teaching outside of words and letters. And the other schools were really schools that were based on particular texts and particular teachings. But I don't know what Chan was like in those days, where the way it evolved in later centuries in China, And the way you see it now, even in temples and monasteries and lineages that Chan was in, if you go over to a half a mile away to the Berkeley Buddhist Monastery, have any of you been there?

[14:13]

There's wonderful, wonderful monks there. Traditions, in the course of a day, they do a whole range of different practices. So they will do devotional practices. They will do straightforward meditation practices. They will do Vinaya practices. They will do practices. So in a, at least in a contemporary Chahn monastery, you find all of the existing, all of the schools tend to exist within one location. Different from what my experience was in Japan. In Japan often, you know, if you go to a temple or a monastery at one school, they profess not to know anything about

[15:20]

or the other schools. So in Chinese, it's very, very synthesizing. It's pulling together all these traditions and they're all alive. So that's some answer of your question. Thank you. Yeah. On here. Yeah, go ahead. Two things came out for me during the week, the last week. One, I felt very encouraged because an underdog sort of became the next ancestor. But I was also puzzled, I was a little bothered that the other students didn't even bother writing anything because they already gave up saying the senior students are going to blow us out of the water. So their lack of effort or I don't know if they're afraid or they're intimidated or respect. I don't know that those are the two things that came up for me. tradition to just kind of surrender to it, back off and let them take care of it.

[16:25]

So those are the two things that I was thinking about this week. Well, there's an epithet that's used for monks. Sometimes they're referred to as rice packs, you know, and the monastery and you work and you can get, you know, You get food for your life, you know, and it wasn't, it wasn't, everybody was not hungry for the Dharma necessarily. I think that this is a story and I, you know, I think there's a lot of, there's a sort of a fabulistic turn to it where, you know, the monks are put down so this other guy can be raised up. So that's the story. Who knows what it was really like. But it's also true that, you know, in an environment where there was a tremendous amount of poverty and hunger, you know, this was kind of a safe place to be where at least you would get food.

[17:39]

But I'm sure there are many people hungering after the Dharma. And, you know, we only hear about a few of them. Yeah. So, born in what is known now as Chek Yang in Leong Che. And he had a calling for the Buddha Dharma at an early age. And he became a novice as a boy. The Vinaya schools, Vinaya means their primary practice was just maintaining the precepts. And they took in the Vinaya in China, they took all of the, they took the full Vinaya, which is, you know, two hundred precepts for monks and they took.

[18:44]

Not only did they take the various Theravada, various Theravadan Vinayas, but there was also Mahayana Vinaya. So they took, they had a lot of precepts to keep. And the precept became, those precepts were just actually just doing, maintaining their preceptual life was a lot of their practice. And then studying the Vinaya and the Vinaya rules and the stories behind them. So one day, Rama was chanting the Heart Sutra, which was already a principal text. And he got to the line where he says, there is no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body or mind. He stopped and he ran his hand across his face and he thought for a moment and he asked his teacher, since I have eyes and ears and so on, how can the sutra say there are no such things?

[20:00]

I think all of us have had this question, right? But somehow it was a question that flummoxed his teacher. And his teacher said, study with this Zen teacher, Lingmo. This is very much like what happened to Dogen when he went to his teacher and said, if all beings are enlightened, then why do I need to practice? And he was at a... He was originally a young monk in a purely temple. And basically, you ask these kinds of fundamental questions. These are real Dharma questions. And so they were both sent in their respective times to a Zen teacher. And he went to this teacher Ling Mo's monastery.

[21:12]

He was ordained at the age of 20 and began then his journey to meet great teachers of his age. And the first teacher he came to was Nanchuan, who was a student of Matsu, Master Ma. And it happened that a meal was being prepared on the anniversary of Matsu's death. Nanshuang asked his disciples, tomorrow we will offer food to the late master Matsu. Come? And no one answered, but Dongshan, who had just shown up at the monastery, said, he will wait for a companion to come. Nonchalant commented, although this is young, he's qualified for training.

[22:24]

And Dengshan said, this venerable sir should not oppress a good man by regarding him as a worthless fellow. And this is... Weeneng's first dialogue when he meets Hongchen, where, you know, Hongchen said, this fellow is too smart. And, you know, for a barbarian, he's too smart. And Hongchen and Weeneng said, the lowest people may have the highest wisdom. The highest people may have the least wisdom. If you slight others, you create limitless unbounded offenses. They're very similar kinds of responses. But what I wanted to think he means when he says, he will wait for a companion to come.

[23:30]

Does anyone wanna offer a thought or a word about that? Please raise your digital hands if you have something to say or someone in the room. Hannah. I'm wondering about the cultural incomprehensible things. Because I never get any of them. And just like we understand that the emphasis on the ancestors is a Chinese cultural phenomenon. What is the root of talking like this? Well, I think this is what to me is wonderful about the Zen tradition is it's live words. You know, it's really bantering back and forth about matters that were really important to them, but that they put lightly.

[24:40]

It's kind of like a comedian telling the truth in a sense. So, you know, the teacher, so, let me just look back a second. So, asked his disciples, so the teacher from the seed is saying, Tomorrow we will offer food to the late master Matsu. So tomorrow, you know, we will, next week, next month, we will offer tea and cookies to our late master Soji. You know, do you think he will come? And Dongshan says,

[25:46]

Well, he'll come if there's a companion. He'll wait for a companion. Clay? Well, I was waiting for us to meet him. We're the companion. Could you hear me? Yeah. I'm saying again. Oh, I said he's waiting for us to meet him there. Meet him at the threshold. Perhaps. Anyone else? When we make these offerings here, I feel that they're being received.

[26:52]

You're offering me. I'm believing it's being received. You're the companion. Offers. I think when we do our memorials for Sojun or we do an animal memorial for Suzuki Roshi, people come forward and they offer words as well as incense or flowers. And they, everybody makes them, I think, to be a companion, to come forward. and meet him. You know, Sojin did this every year. He wrote a poem. You know, he really put thought and an effort into meeting.

[28:00]

And I think in this setting, this is a place where Dongshan was moved to express his deep feeling. When everybody else was, again, like we were seeing with, I mean, they were, you know, monks were intimidated, not ready to make a statement. But Dongshan made a statement. Yeah. I was also thinking about studying the intention. Yeah, I think also a teacher only comes forward. There's someone to meet her.

[29:04]

If there's not someone to meet the teacher, then you're not a teacher. If there's not someone to come forward as Matsu's companion to meet him face to face, then the Dharma of Matsu is not going to be revealed. This is why we should express ourselves. It's really important. I was given a correction in the chat. Dogen's ordination was, his first ordination was at a Tendai monastery, not strictly speaking of purely. So, he studied with Nanchuan for a while, and then he went to study with Guishan.

[30:13]

who was another of Master Matsu's heirs. And I'm gonna read you from the record of Dongshan, because this is a very, it's a significant exchange and it extends for a while. So next, the master made a visit to Guishan and said to him, I have... that the national teacher Chung of Nanyang maintains the doctrine that non-sentient beings expound the Dharma. I have not yet comprehended this teaching. So this is not a teaching that you will find in early Buddhism. Early Buddhism you know, would confine the teaching or the preaching of the Dharma to sentient beings, to beings in the, what can I say, in the realm of expression.

[31:34]

So Grayshan said, can you remember the details of what you heard? And Nookshan said, oops, I think I missed the page. Let me look at my record here. full story is in the Denko Roku, the transmission of light. I'm trying to... I have it here. I just want to... Okay, this is the whole story.

[32:54]

So Guishan said, do you remember what you heard teachers teaching? Dongshan said, I remember it. And Guishan said, well, let's hear it. Then Dongshan is quoting national teacher Huizhong. A monk asked, How about the old Buddha mind? The national teacher said, it is fences, walls, tiles, and rubble. The monk said, fences, walls, tiles, and rubble. Aren't these insentient things? The national teacher said, are they too preaching the Dharma? The national teacher said, they are blazing with constant preaching, and that preaching has no interruption or end.

[33:57]

The monk said, how come I do not hear it? The national teacher said, you yourself do not hear it, but that does not interfere with the hearing of others. The monk said, I wonder what people are able to hear it. The national teacher said, sages are able to hear it. The monk said, Reverend teacher, do you hear it or not? The national teacher said, I do not hear it. The monk said, Reverend, if you've not already heard it, then how can you know the preaching of insentient beings? The national teacher said, fortunately, I do not hear it. If I heard it, I would be equal to the sages, and you would not be able to hear my preaching of the Dharma.

[35:00]

The monk said, if so, then it goes beyond the capacity of living beings. The national teacher said, I preach for living beings. I do not preach for sages. The monk said, after living, then what? The national teacher said, then they are not living beings. The monk said, in what scripture is in sentient beings preached in Dharma attested? He said, obviously, words that are not found in scripture are not what should be embraced by the spirit man. In other words, yes, you can find it in a scripture. Have not you seen the verse in the Avatamsaka Sutra that says, hands preach, living beings preach in the three times everything preaches.

[36:08]

Okay, can you kind of hold that in mind? It's a complicated story. I think there's more to it. So Dungshan, remember, Dungshan is reciting this to Guishan. Dungshan had finished raising this case, Guishan said, Ah, I here as well have it, only it is very rare to encounter that person. It's very hard to meet a person like me who gets this. I know what you're talking about now. And Dungshan said, I have not yet clarified it. I don't get it yet. I beg you, master, please instruct me. Grayshan held up his whisk and said, do you understand?

[37:08]

Dungshan said, I don't understand. Please explain. And Grayshan said, a mouth born of... cannot explain it to you." Then Dongshan said, is there anyone else who searched for the way at the same time as you, master? And Guishan said, from here to Yo district in Liling, there's a person named Yunyan. Dongshan said, I wonder what sort of person he is. Guishan said, he once asked, when a student trainee wishes to serve his master, then what? I, Guishan, responded to him, straight away, you must cut off the violence.

[38:13]

Then for the first time, you will get it. And Yunyan said, then to avoid disregarding your instructions, Master, or not. So with that as encouragement, Dung Shan took a leave of Gui Shan and went to Yunnan. After raising the same episode, the same story with Yunnan, he asked, Incentient beings preach the Dharma, but what person can hear it? Yunnan said, Incentient beings can hear it. Yunnan said, Reverend, do you hear it or not? Yunnan said, If I could hear it, then you would not be able to hear me preach the Dharma, which is basically what the national teacher said.

[39:16]

Jungchan said, Why can't I hear it? Yunnan said, held up his whisk and said, do you hear this? Dongshan said, I don't hear it. Yunnan said, if you can't even hear my preaching, my preaching the Dharma, how much less so the Dharma preaching of insentient beings. You know, if you can't hear what these wall tiles and rubbles are saying. And then he asks, Dongshan asks, in what scripture, Do you find this? And Jung Jung said, have you not seen the passage in the Amitabha Sutra that says, waterfowl and groves of trees, all of them recollect Buddhas and recollect dharmas. At this, Dongshan had an insight. So... His insight is in his record.

[40:31]

And I want to read you his poem. He said, he proposed the following gatha. How amazing, how amazing. Hard to comprehend that non-sentient beings expound the dharma. It simply cannot be heard with the ear, but when the sound is heard with the eye, then it is understood. So I'm gonna, let me stop there and see if you have any comments about this story. Thank you.

[41:38]

I think of the Genjo Koan, and that's the closest understanding, at least my understanding of that, is that there is a confirmation of non-sentient beings, and we are the 10,000 things And I don't know if that's at the same time that mind and body drop away or a cause of it, but it does seem to be a flow of dropping conceptual. Yeah, I think that it is. its experience of the non-duality or the oneness of everything, which includes sentient and insentient beings.

[42:49]

And I think that's precisely, Dogen quotes this story frequently, actually. And it's sort of, it's a pivotal story in vision. It's also, just to say, and I don't want to get into this, it's been a controversy in, it's a controversial position in modern Buddhist scholarship because it has the hazard of this position is that it appears to equate sentient and insentient things. And so, in a sense, it has the potential to devalue the position of sentient beings.

[43:54]

Does that make sense? Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah. I'm sorry? Well, if you're saying that sentient beings preach the Dharma and insentient beings preach the Dharma, then everything is of a kind of equal value. And that allows you to treat sentient beings and insentient beings in the same way, and they're, you know, they're... There was a school called Critical Buddhism, which critiqued in the 70s, which was saying that this, you know, I think in Western poetry, this is called the pathetic fallacy, if you're familiar with that.

[45:02]

basically assigning sentience and agency, living agency to do non-alive things. Yeah. Why does their ability to preach the Dharma by sentience or agency? Well, it doesn't necessarily. But what the scholars are saying in this school is that it it has led to a position where human life is not any more precious than any other existence. And that has allowed humans to be treated as objects. So I don't want to get too tangled up in this, but I made the mistake of raising the issue, so that's okay. But this is not Dongshan's full enlightenment.

[46:17]

He studied with Yunyan first and then he prepared to continue his journey. And as he departed, As he departed, Yunnan said, it'll be difficult for us to meet again. Yunnan was old. Dongshan said, it'll be difficult for us not to meet. But after your death, if someone asked me to describe you, what should I answer? So one of the things in those days,

[47:21]

Often the document that you would receive as a kind of authorization of your transmission, you would receive a painted, a painting of your teacher. So I don't think Yunyan gave, gave Dengshan this painting. And so Dengshan It's not that he didn't verify his understanding, but he also saw that Dongshan had more work to do. And so Dongshan is asking, describe you. After remaining quiet for Yunyan said, just this person.

[48:25]

There's various translations of this line. Just this person or just this one is. Ndungshan remained silent for a while, harboring his last doubts. And Yunyan said, as they were leaving, You should be very careful about carrying on this business. You must be very cautious. Dungshan, one thing that I love about Dungshan is that throughout this story, the story of his life up to this point is, he's not shy about expressing his And so, according to the record, Dongshan remained dubious about what Yunnan had said, meaning he didn't really understand what he said.

[49:37]

Later, crossing the river, he saw his reflected image, and he experienced a great awakening about this previous exchange. And all of his doubts were clarified. And he offered this. Don't seek from others or you'll be estranged from yourself. As I go alone, I meet him everywhere. He is. but I am not what he is. One must understand in this way to merge with suchness. Read that again. Don't seek from others or you'll be estranged from yourself. As I go, I meet him everywhere.

[50:43]

He is what I am now, but I am not what he is. One must understand in this way to merge with suchness. I want to read you something I found speaking to Dungshan's teachings. This is from Blanche Hartman. And another of Sojin's Dharma heirs. She writes, in the onrushing kaleidoscopic chaos of our life, there's nothing substantial to hold on to. Moment after moment after moment, moment after moment after moment, we can't identify with any of it.

[51:46]

It arises and passes away. In the midst of the openness of this question, what, what, what? When you touch that really open space, let it enlarge, let it expand, let it explode your limited view of a substantial separate self and allow you to experience the boundlessness of your being. Seeing yourself Everything. And then she quotes one of the principal teachings of Dungshan from the Jewel Mirror Samadhi, which is something that we've studied and we should study again. This is Dungshan. It is like facing the jewel mirror. Form and image behold each other. You are not it.

[52:49]

It actually is you. which is very much the same as this line in the poem. He is now not himself, but I am not now him. We are one. He's one with his teacher, Yun Yan, and yet he is himself. Each of us is one with our teacher, one with our parents, one with other beings. uniquely ourself and in each other, we see a mirror of who we are if we look really closely. This is Zung Chan. It's like facing the true mirror, form an image, behold each other. We're not it, it actually is you. This doesn't mean that when he saw his reflection in the stream, that he saw his reflection

[53:51]

was him. It meant that the water was him, the rocks were him, everything. His dream was not separate from himself. Wherever he looked, there was a dual mirror. Whatever he saw was not separate. This is awakening to the totality of who you are and what you are. It's not that you disappear. and you are everything simultaneously. The relative and absolute intermingle and interpenetrate, as we chanted this morning in the merging of difference and unity. Merging of difference and unity is what we call, what we know as the Sandokai, which is a slightly earlier expression of what Dengshan was getting at in Shulmura Samadhi.

[54:52]

Same thing, the merging of difference in unity. You are you and you are not separate from anything. It begins with breath, just breathing in and breathing out. What is inside? What is outside? Following your breath, in your aura deep at the bottom of your belly all the way. Let it go completely. Just exhale and don't worry about the inhale. The exhale will become the inhale of its own. Trust it. There at the bottom of your breath between exhale and inhale. There's a very quiet moment. Stay right there. be with whatever arises right there. It's a beautiful passage from Blanche, very clear exposition of what we're trying to talk in terms of these teachings of Dengshan.

[56:08]

So any thoughts or comments? I think it's from Blanche's book. I'm forgetting the title of it. Someone out there knows that you could put it in the chat. I see Judy. Thank you, Hozan. I keep coming back to how this relates to, if you will, collective consciousness and that awakening is not an individual matter. And so, you know, like I remember in a fascicle of Dogen,

[57:13]

where he's talking about, you know, the sentient and insentient, that something is expressed around, this isn't about an identity that sentient is, say, human beings, and insentient are rocks and so on, but it's rather, it's a matter of awakening. akin to practice enlightenment is one. In the same way, sentience and insentience is an alignment to the real true reality of all beings is interpenetrated. And so from that kind of an understanding, for instance, I take care of, well, I respond to climate crisis from a recognition that I am climate.

[58:28]

And so it's an appropriate response. And so I'm wondering how that comes in with you know, collective awakening, and particularly around themes of responsiveness to, you know, crises of our times, from racial justice to climate crisis? Well, I think what Dungshan is, I think about... as a metaphor, and I've talked about this often, that a way that I think about playing music, which is collectively, the band, the orchestra, the group, whatever the ensemble is, is doing something together.

[59:36]

Individually, Every single member of that is completely responsible for the whole thing. And it's interactive. So what Dongshan and what I think is true of the Zen tradition is it's not that it's being obtuse about the interactive or social dimension. It is saying, I think, we need to do our work, practice ourselves in order to be attuned. Because that attunement does not necessarily arise collectively. It arises out of a collection of awarenesses that

[60:40]

responsible for as individuals. And that's, that's what I think, you know, I'm very attuned to what's going on in the world. But if I'm not finding a way to really feel connected to all of that, which calls for the refinement of my own awareness and self, then my understanding is going to be really fuzzy. Yeah, it's just that when Dongshan has that wake-up moment, the reflection, and he expresses the word alone, of course, it's alone in harmony with all beings. I mean, he was leading all relationship. So I think it's also how we understand this person, individual, aloneness.

[61:51]

I would also look at what, this is why we look at the whole record. Dungshan did not become a hermit. He was not satisfied to then go into the mountains and find a cave and practice there. He went and he founded a monastery and he attracted hundreds of students. He took it into the world. And the same thing is true with the Buddha. The Buddha's first thoughts on awakening was, wow, this is amazing, but I've done it. he didn't, he had some reservations about whether he could teach this to anyone. And the celestial beings said, please, please take this into the world.

[63:03]

And he did. And then he spent the next 40 years doing that. But his first, you know, his first He needed to come forward. This is called the going forth. And so our awakening is something that happens within the container of self. It's settling the self on the self, but it doesn't stay there. If it stays there, then it's not the Bodhisattva way. Other thoughts, questions? I have a question.

[64:11]

When the Buddha said, this cannot be thought, he's not really actually teaching it, right? He's just sort of like pointing towards the dharma because, I mean, he walked around for 40 years. So what exactly did he teach? If he couldn't teach it, how did he? What he did was he met absolutely everyone who gave to him. And the sutra, the sutra is simply a set of dialogues. You know, and he didn't say the same thing to everybody. He gave them, he gave each person the teaching that was appropriate for them. And so sometimes we might see contradictions. You know, when we get to Dogen, we'll see in two weeks, we'll see, you know, Dogen's teachings shifted over the course of his life, shifted it on the basis of who is he living and working with?

[65:27]

And the same thing is true with any teacher. And that's why to sort of, you know, Q&A in, or when you have Shosan ceremony here, these are not generic questions that are being asked. They are, each person is asking their question, and the answer they get is their answer. And so Jim asks, Jim could ask a question, and Jonathan could ask the same question, and you guys might get different answers, depending on what's the relationship between us, what is behind the question, what's the body language, all of that.

[66:32]

And this is, nobody becomes his teacher. There's a case that I read several weeks ago, speaking about Sojin. It's hard to keep track of the papers, I'm sorry. Oh, here it is. Many years later, Dongshan held a memorial meal for Yunyan. So excuse me for repeating this, which I gave in the lecture a few years, a few weeks ago. And a monk asked him, what teaching did you receive when you were at Yunyan's place?

[67:36]

Dongshan said, I didn't receive any teaching. In other words, Jungian didn't explain anything to me. And a good teacher won't do a lot of explaining to you. Maybe open a window so that you can find out for yourself. Well, since you didn't receive any teaching, why are you conducting this memorial, asked the man. Dongshun said, why should I turn my back on him? If you began by needing Nanjuan, which was his first teacher, why now do you conduct a memorial feast for Yunyan? Uh-oh. Johnny, really out.

[68:42]

Who signed in? I have no clue. It could be me, Yanni. We're hearing you. Oh, there you are. We see you. Are you all here now? And we can hear you. Okay, I'm sorry, I have no idea what happened. It's just simply bizarre. Okay, so Monk asks, if you began by meeting Nanshwan, why do you now conduct a memorial reunion? And Nanshwan says, it's not that my former master's virtue, it's not my former master's virtue or Buddha Narva that I esteem, only that he did not make exhaustive explanations for me, replied the master.

[70:19]

Since you are conducting this memorial feast for Yunnan, do you agree with him or not? Asked the monk. The master said, I agree with half and don't agree with half. Why don't asked the monk. The master said, if I agreed completely, then I would be ungrateful to my former master. Do you understand? Does that make sense to you? We're not supposed to be our teachers. When you look at I didn't know Suzuki Roshi. But my feeling from looking at Suzuki Roshi's heirs is that everyone of his heirs has some piece of him.

[71:35]

No one is exactly like him. I think of all of our teachers. I mean, I've not met, I do not purport to be like Sojin, if you will. As did many of you who are here, and each of us carries a piece of that. And it wouldn't do to agree with all, because we actually have to stand on our own feet, in our own place, with our own understanding. And that's what our teachers want from us. That's what Jungian wanted from Dongshan. So I just want to get to the end of his life in the few minutes that we have.

[72:42]

in 1869, in 1869. In 1869, he was already dead for a thousand years. In 869, however, Dengshan announced that he had reached the moment to pass out of this life. This is one of the things that Supposedly great Zen masters have the capacity to predict their own deaths. And he put on his formal robes. He shaved and said that he bathed, took a ritual bath. He put on his formal robes and he gathered his disciples about him. He seated himself in cross-legged meditation. farewell to his disciples and he died.

[73:46]

His disciples could not contain their feelings. So they sobbed so loudly that he gave up dying in peace. Opening his eyes, He rebuked them by reminding them that followers of the Buddha Dharma are not attached to externals. Self cultivation, he said, consists in this. In living, you work hard. In death, you were at rest. Why should there be any grief? He then ordered an offering of food, which is sometimes called a stupidity meal, as his last meal, you know, to point out the pointlessness of his monk's grief.

[74:59]

But he was kind to them. He offered this in order to shame them. And even so, they took a week to prepare this meal. really, they were not in a hurry for him to go. And when it came, he took another ceremonial bath. He was a clean guy. He bade farewell to his disciples again, and he died. So in between, I really encourage you to look at this record, Bill Powell's record of Dungshan, because there's so many wonderful stories. There's a story, I love this story.

[76:01]

Let me see if I can find it. It just amuses me. Oh, yeah. When the master was at Leiton, he met the head monk, Chu, who said, how amazing, how amazing, the realm of the Buddha and the realm of the path, how unimaginable. Accordingly, the master said, inquire about the realm of the Buddha or the realm of the path, rather, what kind of person is it who talks about the realm of the Buddha and the realm of the path? Kind of sharp, right? After a long time, the head monk had not responded, the master said, why don't you answer more quickly?

[77:06]

Chu said, such aggressiveness will not do. Dungshun said, You haven't even answered what you were asked, so how can you say that's such aggressiveness? Chu did not respond. The master said, the Buddha and the path are nothing more than names. Why don't you quote something about teaching? What would a teaching say? asked Chu. And Dongshan said, when you've gotten the meaning, forget the words. Chu said, by still depending on teachings, you sicken your mind. This is kind of a nasty exchange. But how great is the sickness of one of the Buddha and the realm of the path, said Dongshan. Again, the head monk did not reply.

[78:10]

The next day, he suddenly passed away. And from that time, Master Dungshan came to be the one who questions head monks to death. So any last thoughts or questions before we finish for the night? Yes. I was wondering if you could say a word about the ancestors chant that we do. I feel of honoring the ancestors, and at the same time, sometimes my experience of it is that it feels a little tedious, like saying each name and not having really a knowledge of a lot of these persons.

[79:14]

And I wonder if you could speak to it to try to maybe inspire some connection to the meaning of it. I see your hand. Well, let me just relate my experience, which is, for me, when I was at Tassajara in 1988, I guess, and we chanted the lineage, we chanted the whole lineage every day, the lineage We weren't chanting women ancestors at that point, which I think is a wonderful and important addition, but we chanting the whole temple lineage, which Shakyamuni Buddha through Suzuki Roshi. And my experience doing that every day was, it brought forth for me a feeling that

[80:19]

In this family. This is the family that I wanted to be in. And I think we do this to remind us of what family we're in. And sometimes, you know what? Our families are kind of devious. Sometimes you don't want to remember the family that you're actually, that you're actually, but nonetheless, we're in, I think it's important to honor both our Dharma families and also our birth families. And I feel like those lineages converge. They meet. You know, Suzuki Roshi and your grandparents, they meet and they're expressed in you. And I think that's wonderful. And if you want... Lineage.

[81:22]

Very simple way to do it. The Denkoroku. D-E-N-K-O-R-O-K-U. Transmission of the Light. That was written by Dogen's disciple Keizan. And stories of all the ancestors from Shakyamuni Buddha up until Dogen. And there are a lot of different versions of it. It's really accessible. The stories are great. And it gives you a feeling for the family that we're in. That said, it's important to recognize, as we spoke of last week, that these families are constructions, you know, that they're not, some of them, that were filled in so that it would appear to be person to person, which may or may not be the case.

[82:27]

But still, all the stories are really alive. Mary, we'll take your question and then we'll end. Thank you. I'm still thinking about teaching the Dharma, the insentient parts of our universe and the controversy that you took a little side trip down about the controversy in the 70s, but doesn't that denigrate sentient beings somehow? And I'm wondering why it doesn't elevate the insentient beings to be as wonderful and as marvelous as sentient beings. Well, it does, but there's always a context for ideas, right? And in the particular context of Buddhism, the context was looking at the history of Japanese Buddhism in the 19th and 20th century, which committed atrocities.

[83:38]

And the teachings, there are teachings which I can find from prominent Zen teachers about killing. You know, about, you know, rendishing the sword. You're not killing a sentient being because there are no sentient beings. And so political context to it or social context which plays out in the kind of aberration of this thinking. Does that make sense? Yeah. Thank you. Okay, until next week, and next week, we will talk about Dogen. And as I say, please, if you have questions, feel free to ask me on email, or bring your questions next week. We'll close with the Bodhisattva fast.

[84:47]

I vow to awaken with them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. The gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. The Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. Thank you all. Have a good night in the next couple of days. Thank you, Hozan. Thank you. My pleasure.

[85:31]

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