I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Good morning. It's nice to see you all. My name is Marie Hopper. I have been sitting more or less at Berkeley Zen Center since 1998. That was when I first came here. I sat here a lot until about 2006 when I had my first child. And that changed my availability quite a bit. So then it changed my practice quite a bit. I

[01:01]

was very active in and very interested in family practice for a number of years. We had a family dharma group here at Berkeley Zen Center and we supported other families with children, supported one another. We would kind of take turns watching kids while we would try and attend parts of the Saturday program. We even had a few family sashins and tried to get our children interested in sitting with us in the zendo. They were very interested in the zafus, just not sitting on them. I led a couple of coming-of-age programs here at Berkley Zen Center, which were quite rewarding. But now my youngest child is entering, he just started last week, his senior year of high school.

[02:10]

And will hopefully be moving on to college next year. And then my time of family practice will... be significantly decreasing and I will be focusing more again on my solitary practice which I'm looking forward to so I'd like to talk about practice and practice outside the gate For the most part, that is what my practice has been for over 20 years. And for me, what that has looked like is taking my practice with me wherever I go. In some ways, it was trying to find a quiet place to sit at home, sit zazen.

[03:18]

But... Even more so, it was figuring out how I was going to practice while moving about the world. And I've had different images of that for myself. Sometimes I felt like a turtle and I'm just trying to have it on my back or a backpack. Other times it was kind of, I had one image of myself with a giant hoop skirt on trying to just have it as a bubble around me. but really taking whatever I had in my previous time on my cushion and in the zendo, figuring out how to continue to manifest that and let it move with me as I moved through the world. Practice as a word, as we're going to define it, can mean different things.

[04:21]

In my household, it often means something related to sporting events where someone has practice after school or practice on the weekends. And it's their version of honing a skill. And I don't think it's too different for me. It's honing a skill. Honing a skill of being in the present moment and being alert and aware of all the aspects of that present moment. And it's a very lovely experience when I can do that without distraction or other things going on around me, in the zendo preferably. But one thing I learned in this very zendo many years ago, was that when sitting zazen, or when in a state of practice, to keep in mind the idea of thirds.

[05:33]

This is an idea that Jon Kabat-Zinn likes to use a lot, but when I first heard it, I found it very useful. So when sitting zazen, for example, a third of your mind... is focused on your breath and your body and holding it in an upright yet still position, just noting the air going in and out. Maybe you're noticing the movement in your chest and the stillness in your knees, but you're noticing your body and your breath with a third of your mind. Another third of your mind is watching the thoughts and the feelings flow through you, coming in and out. And another third of your mind is holding compassion for all that is occurring in you, around you, but just having a gentle and kind

[06:51]

compassionate container for this process of noticing and being aware. And I really come to trust this process and have a lot of faith in it that when I do this, it helps me, whether I'm doing it on the cushion or doing it out in the world. And this year, especially, I have relied on that process a lot. In January, I received a layoff notice from my employer. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I worked for a county clinic for severely mentally ill. And it was work that I had come to

[07:52]

Enjoy quite a bit. I loved my coworkers. I loved the people that I worked with. And it was something that I had hoped to do until I retired. It was just very rewarding. And so it was very painful to get a layoff notice. Due to federal cuts, they were going to close the clinic. So all the clinicians that I worked with, as well as myself, received layoff notices. And there was one meeting in particular that stood out to me, as I think back on it. We had just received the notice, and it was becoming very real. And we were in a staff meeting, and we're kind of sitting around. I think everybody was pretty disoriented, and... So...

[08:52]

We were all sitting in silence. It wasn't the comfortable silence of the zendo. It was very painful. I was looking around. Some people had tears. And so I was noticing my own pain, a tension in my body, the grief, anger, frustration, helplessness, just feeling very distraught. And all of a sudden it's like, well, who's going to help? Where are the teachers? Where are the... What's the way through? And I was certainly not the most senior clinician there. There were people who had been working there for decades. I had only been there about eight years.

[09:55]

But so, again, I turned to my breath. I noticed my body. And there was just something familiar about that. And I was able to just find some words. reminding people of the good work that we have done and all the help that we had given over the years, that we didn't know what was going to happen and we were going to do what we could to try and fight it. And the unknowing, the not knowing is always hard in situations like this. I shared a few stories of... clients that we had helped and that we're doing better because of the work and that we would find a way through and we were able to acknowledge that together and we ended our meeting on a positive note but I found myself thinking about that meeting a lot in the days that followed

[11:23]

Because what stood out to me is that I had not been feeling any resilience and yet there had been some in me and it had come forward in a time when I had needed it. And what stood out to me So I tend to refer this as parts, as our parts, parts language. That when we feel something, even when it was as consuming as my grief and anger in that moment, there were other parts of me. And that when I looked for them, they were there. And that being in the present moment, is noticing what is there and what is not there and sometimes what is needed.

[12:34]

And so it's not a matter of just simply noticing what is present. It's noticing the relationships and the connections between what is present and not present, and again, what is needed. And what came to me is that that is what I think is Buddha nature. When I first learned, again in the sendo, about Buddha nature, I saw it as just kind of another part It was a wise part. It was a good part. It was a part that I was glad it was there. But I'm not so sure I see it that way anymore.

[13:36]

I see it as a bigger picture or the thread that connects the parts. Um... So Suzuki Roshi liked to say, here's a quote from him. He would talk about the present moment as saying, in Zazen, leave your front door and your back door open.

[14:43]

Let thoughts come and go. Just don't serve them tea. And as a general rule, I follow that. And some of my thoughts come in and sit down like they're expecting an eight-course meal. And that tends to be more of my frustration, my anger, my convictions, what I think or believe is right. They come in and they stay. They feel like they have their own chair at the head of the table. And... it's harder to get those thoughts to leave or to just breeze through the doorways.

[15:52]

And then there are the thoughts that it has taken a long time of coaxing and sometimes of saying, would you like a cookie? You know, really inviting them in. And those parts... have been the more vulnerable parts the more scared parts sometimes I'll say this word just because I think these parts consider themselves this way maybe the more ugly parts the parts that include shame or embarrassment those parts don't want to come in They don't want to be seen as much. And so you have to invite them in. And we need all our parts, not just some, not just the good ones.

[17:03]

We need all of them. And every single one of them is a part of our Buddha nature. And so this has been a different way for me to really think about Buddha nature and how to invite, or not invite, to respond, to respond differently. There are some thoughts that I need to actively invite to leave. They're not helpful. And that has been a question that's been a bit of a gatekeeper for me, kind of like the person who stands at the front door and helps us find our seat and come in.

[18:07]

Is this a helpful thought? And if it's not so helpful, I might need to ask it to leave, to let it go. And then there are times when I need help and I need to invite certain thoughts in. And so I have to sort through them. What is needed? What is needed in this moment? And particularly when my thoughts are about the future or the past. Thinking about the past, we can't change it. We have no way of controlling or changing that. Our power is in the present.

[19:09]

What we think, what we feel, what we choose, what we do now. We can think and prepare about the future, but until the future becomes the present, That's not helpful either. What is most helpful where we have our strength, where we have our empowerment is in the present moment. And so what thoughts are helpful now? What can we invoke and feel and turn towards and invite in that is helpful now? and seeing, sorting through, making these choices. I think the wisdom to do that is our Buddha nature, at least.

[20:11]

That's what helps me understand it. Um... So when I think back to that meeting that I had, it was really helpful for me to know that I can find the part of myself that will help me get through something. And sometimes that'll be helpful to others, and sometimes it's just helpful to me. But being able to kind of see clearly what I was tapping into, and it was more intuitive in that moment, but it was helpful to see it so that I could recreate it as I needed it.

[21:21]

Sojin Roshi, in one of his talks, gave the example of water in a bowl. He said, Buddha nature is like a bowl of water. The surface can have a lot of ripples while also having a stillness in its depth. That was very helpful to me as I reflected on that. And I was going back through some of his old talks when I really wanted to unpack this idea of Buddha nature. And I liked this especially because it really gave me an image of the water where some of it was rippling and some of it was still. And that as long as I saw myself as the water, I could see the different parts.

[22:56]

The part of me that was rippling, the part of me that was still. And that it was all connected. It was just responding. to different experiences, to being on the surface, and then to be in the depths. Another helpful analogy was when my husband and I were visiting Japan, we were at a temple, And there was this rock garden that no matter where you stood in the garden, you could not see all the rocks. At any one point looking around, at least one of the rocks was hidden from view.

[24:01]

And so we can't always see all our parts. But as we move around the garden, we know they're there. And we can move or we can remember that they're there. And that, again, for me, helps me hold Buddha nature and how to navigate my different parts. I might be sitting down and... All I can really see is one part. I'm right in front of one rock and it's taking up my whole vision. But sometimes I need to move. I need to step back. I need to remember that the other rocks are there. And I might need to get up and move and go look at one. But this knowing what I need and knowing how to change my view and just holding

[25:10]

My understanding of the garden or of the bowl of water is what helps me, and I'm going to say that, is my practice. That's the practice. That's the way to be, whether I'm on the cushion or out in the world, just knowing that that that's my reality. And how I want to hold my experience, the present moment, and my life. Another way that I kind of explored this idea is of making broth.

[26:11]

That It's not just the carrots or the salt or the tomatoes or the onion. It's what happens when you blend them together and let them stew, let them sit. And it's not just the experience of the broth. It's then the meal. the soup, and then maybe the salad, and then whatever protein you're serving, and then it's the dessert afterwards, the whole experience. You might have a favorite part, you might have a part that you're eating just because it's supposed to be good for you, but it's all of it that comes together and that that experience

[27:17]

as you bring it all together, is what matters. So in April of this year, I started a new job. I'm not working with severely mentally ill anymore. I am a therapist at a Catholic college, and so I work with young college students now. And that has been an opportunity for me to experience many of my parts. I am still grieving and sad, about leaving the place I was before. I miss the people I work with, both my colleagues as well as the clients.

[28:23]

I still worry for them and how they're gonna find their way and get what they need. I love the young people that I am meeting and that I am working with. They have an entirely different set of their own parts worries and perspectives and ambitions and they are utterly delightful um for the first time in my life i'm going to meetings and they start with prayer which is new to me i haven't had a job that does that before um In some ways I'm finding it very interesting. I have to say it's a... I don't even know.

[29:25]

So sometimes it is a Jewish prayer and sometimes it's a Muslim prayer and sometimes it's a Catholic prayer. So I love how they bring in and I'm exposed to all these different types of prayer and thought. I'm surprised at how many of them remind me of Buddhist ideas. So I am learning new things. I am having new opportunities to engage with different parts of myself. It's been interesting for me to see how we as a community there are different parts and that there is kind of a Buddha nature in some regards to the school or to the college.

[30:32]

It's allowed me to reflect on how there is a Buddha nature to our Sangha. and how we all are different parts and contribute in different ways. But it... It's been really lovely for me to open up this concept and I'm... I'm finding myself just more aware of connection. And again, what is present and what is not. and what that invokes in me and how I can interact and learn from control in some cases and others just experience, open myself up to and being accepting of all the different parts that we have to navigate in our day.

[31:40]

So I think I'm going to pause there and ask if anyone would like to ask a question. Greg? Thank you, Marie. Thank you for a really inspiring talk. I really liked what you said about the Buddha nature of the Sangha. That moved me a lot. I have a question. Have you ever been invited to offer a Buddhist prayer in the meeting? I have not. I have not... It's been very interesting. My boss is this very young psychologist who has recently discovered meditation.

[32:58]

And there was this other young intern who the two of them like to talk at... staff meetings about their experiences with meditation and they were explaining to us what happens at a retreat. And they're like, yes, you do this and you do that. I'm like, oh, really? It sounds lovely. But I haven't really volunteered and nobody has really asked about They are very much in their... They're very proud of what they're explaining and what they're telling the rest of us. And I haven't really wanted to interrupt them. So... They don't know that I have a Buddhist practice. And I'm sure I will tell them at some point. I mean...

[34:00]

We do not have a lot of money, and she spent a lot of it buying all these Zafus. And so she's very committed to this, and we hope to offer a sitting group for the students, and I think she thinks she's going to lead it, and I might at some point offer to fill in for her at some point. She is an absolutely lovely woman. I want to make it very clear. I did not love my department director at my previous job and felt some of the damage that was done to the clinic there was partly on him. But I really enjoy the director of the clinic or the counseling center that I work for now. And it is... So lovely to watch her light up when she talks about going to a retreat and what she's learning and how amazing she finds the silence.

[35:07]

And so right now I'm just enjoying watching that. But at some point I would love to maybe offer something. Well, you know, Doshan said, with practice hidden, function secretly, right? But that guy from Nazareth said, don't hide your light under a bushel. Thanks, Marie. You and I came to Zen Center about the same time, and we went on sabbatical about the same time for the same reason. And tomorrow I'm putting my youngest child on a plane for college. Yeah, closing a very big chapter in my life. And, you know, it just brings up every feeling in the world from grief, sadness to celebration and relief and exultation, you name it.

[36:16]

But thinking about you in your final year with your high school senior, you may be in the same position a year from now, I don't know. But my question for you is, is anger ever Buddha nature? Is it ever Buddha nature? Have you experienced anger or frustration as Buddha nature? All parts are included. There is no part that is outside of Buddha nature. And, you know, anger, all our emotions are an important piece of information. And anger gives us very important information. It tells us when we feel threatened.

[37:18]

It tells us when we feel disrespected or are violated or are experiencing an injustice. And that information is important. What we do with that information, though, is more important well is equally important i'll say that is equally important and so when anger arises that is a really good time to remember how it connects to all the other parts and to then kind of invoke buddha nature and like okay What do I need to connect with? What other parts of me are needed now? How am I going to cope with or respond to or sort out what's helpful because of the anger?

[38:19]

Thanks. Yeah. Do I call on people or are you going to? I can't see, so if you call on people, I can find them. Thank you for your lovely talk, Marie. You talked about, I was mostly envisioning it on the cushion, but it's both actively inviting certain thoughts to leave. And you talked about the mind of discernment in what's appropriate. And I'm wondering about when do you actively choose to get up and walk to a different place in your mind or actively invite the thought to leave? And when do you sit with that thought? Because I find that often actively inviting it does not, that, you know, that distraught, it gives it more energy and that gives it more power.

[39:25]

And so I have to just sit with it and let it dissipate. But sometimes it is helpful to actively invite it to leave. So that discernment is tricky. It is tricky. I remember Sojin used to say, you try and let it go, and if you try and it keeps coming back and it keeps coming back, then you move closer, and then you sit with it. And for me, when a thought is particularly painful and difficult to sit with, that's when I can't sit with it by itself. And I need to kind of titrate a little bit. I need to sit with the compassion and that thought. I need to sit with maybe some humility, maybe some forgiveness, maybe some patience.

[40:32]

I need other things to help me sit with it. And then sometimes I need to understand that there's more to that thought. Maybe there's something underneath it. Where does it come from? Why is it so insistent? And as I can try and see that it's connected to other things. Anger's a great example. anger never comes by itself. It always comes with sadness or guilt or shame or resentment or just any number of other feelings. And that when you understand what accompanies it, sometimes that makes it a little bit easier to let it go. Often when something is really insistent,

[41:34]

the way I hold it is it hasn't been heard yet. And so I have to hear whatever that part of me has to say. I don't have to agree with it. I don't have to do what it says. I just have to hear it with compassion, and then I can let it go. Yoni, and then Hax. Thank you for your talk. So with the departure of your oldest child and then the imminent departure of your youngest child, I was wondering what do you do or what do you recommend when you have a hole in your life like that? I start over. When something is gone, sometimes you can plug something else in, but something like that, I start over.

[42:48]

I mean, I was reflecting the other day, like, I miss when my kids were... two and four. I miss that so much. And I can't go back. It's gone. I had to start over with the surly people I have living in my house now. And so I, if something has been taken away, if something is gone, and it's gone. And this is a new world and this is a new place and a new time and a new now and a new present moment. And you have to start over with what is here now. Thank you so much for your talk.

[44:00]

When you were responding to Jeff's question and this being with the difficult thoughts, it actually reminded me of time I'm spending around children. I'm in a new relationship with a lovely person with two children, two and five. And I've been finding that I actually really kind of love the temper tantrums. They're like a very loud bell of mindfulness to be completely present and drop anything I thought might be going on or happening and just being like, this is what's happening. And it's really interesting that I can watch that happen. I think it comes from Zazen training of responding to my own difficult temper tantrum, internal temper tantrums. And I'm just curious to hear you talk a little bit more about the family practice and the work with your own children and other children, and if you just have any stories about it or other insight, I'd love to hear.

[45:12]

Thank you for that question. There was a brief story I was going to share, and I skipped over it unintentionally. I was asked to speak with a young Zen student who... was pregnant and getting ready to have her first child. And she said in a very shaky voice that she was really scared she wasn't going to be able to get the opportunity now to deepen her practice. And I said, oh... this is deepening your practice on steroids. This is going to deepen your practice so much. She said, but I won't be able to go to sashim. I said, this is one long sashim.

[46:16]

That's okay. And... She said that was helpful. Um... Children demand you be in the present moment with them. And I always loved Laurie's analogy of sometimes then you could sneak away to Zazen and you actually got to finish having your own thoughts instead of having the child's thoughts with them. or just thinking about what's happening now, what are they doing, what do they need to not be doing, what could they possibly do that would hurt or break something. There was a constant and hyper-vigilant awareness of the present moment that they bring you into that is very good training.

[47:17]

So it's lovely that You can be with it, and there is so much letting go. You're not going to be on time. You're not going to get to do the things that you want to do. They're not going to eat what you want them to eat. They're not going to wear what you want them to wear. They're not going to leave things where you can find them. And that is the present moment, and it gets really simple. Like, just breathe. and let them do what they need to do. Rich? Thanks for your talk, Marie. I really enjoyed it, and it was really timely for me, this idea of, I've been sort of working with, like, what's in front of me is not the entire story, that the entire story is sort of can't be held all at once, and we have lots of

[48:23]

our stuff that we can't talk about this, but I really like the way that you frame Buddha nature as being with what's happening, understanding that not everything is there, and then understanding what's needed. It muddles my idea of Buddha nature in a good way. I'm wondering if you could say more about that. When you think Buddha nature 101, is it wisdom is it compassion is it intuition is it faith like how like what is that sort of nature like what like what do you so the metaphors for me is it's the thread it's the water it's the broth it's the connection between them all It's what allows you a sense of connection and movement between the various experiences and knowing, you know, in some way, and it's not just one thread.

[49:47]

It's like the spider web as, it's often used as a kind of image about moving through time and that there's so much, so many different directions and ways to connect. And so we don't always, like compassion is often a really helpful element when we're facing something challenging. But that's not always what's needed. Sometimes a boundary is needed. Sometimes no is needed. And so we have to come back from wherever our, like, whatever's right in front of us,

[50:48]

come back to a bigger container. What is going to help us hold whatever is needing to be held? In that moment, I once asked Sojin about, okay, how can I be in the present moment and still make sure that all the groceries are going to be in the refrigerator when I have to cook? He said the present moment includes now and being ready to cook, if that's your role as the Tenzo. And so it includes, now includes creating a grocery list, now includes being at the grocery store, now includes having everything in the kitchen, and now also includes the leftovers afterwards.

[51:56]

And so...

[51:58]

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