Oh, great. I did put that in my notes, but I, of course, forgot to look at my notes. So anyway, comma is closely linked to big mind in a way that I never realized before, and we will see that in this material. Oh, and I meant to ask if anybody had any thoughts from last week or comments or questions from last week before we go forward. Does anybody? I think we're small enough that you could just unmute and speak if you want. Okay, I'll take that as a no. Okay, so I'm going to share my screen for the Sankha Sutta. Is that work okay?

[01:03]

Is that big enough, the print big enough and such? Can people see it? Does it need to be bolder or bigger or anything? Looks good. Okay. So let's do, like we did last week, I'll do maybe the two paragraphs and then I'll call on people as I see you and the people who are showing their picture will be the people who i'll call on to read and i'll just go through you the way you appear on my screen so nothing um so this is called the sankha sutta the conch trumpet on one occasion the blessed one was staying near nalanda in the pavarika mango grove then asibandhakaputta the head man a disciple of the went to the Blessed One, and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side.

[02:06]

As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, Head man, how does Naganthan Nata Puta teach the Dhamma to his disciples? Naganthan Nata Puta teaches the Dhamma to his Lord. All those who take life are destined for a state of deprivation, are destined for hell. All those who steal, All those who indulge in illicit sex, all those who tell lies are destined for a state of deprivation, are destined for hell. Whatever one keeps doing frequently is one led to a state of rebirth. That's how Nagantha Nataputta teaches the Dhamma to his disciples. And so just a couple points. I think we touched on this last time. Naganthas are also known as the Jains, what's come down. as the Jains, and that he was one of the teachers that the Buddha studied with before he had his enlightenment experience, Nataputta.

[03:10]

And there's a number of sutras with either Nataputta, but more often with his disciples coming to the Buddha with questions. And so this is just one of those. So let's go with... I'm going to push it up here. Let's go with Susan. I think we're here. We're here. If it's true that whatever one keeps doing frequently, by that one is led to a state of rebirth, then no one is destined for a state of deprivation or destined to hell, in line with Niganta Nataputta's words. What do you think, head person, if a person is one who takes life, then taking into consideration time spent doing and not doing, whether by day or by night, which time is more, the time the person spends taking life or the time not taking life?

[04:22]

Wow. What do you want to say about that? Just sort of rational or, you know, just logical or just sort of almost, you could say obvious, you know? Yeah. And once again, we see this, what do you think, you know, that we saw in the last sutra? What do you think? Anybody else want to comment on that? There's a lot more here, so maybe we should... Maybe I shouldn't open it up until we get into the real, a little bit further into the meat of this. It just seems like at the end you could... Exactly right. Okay. Paolo, you want to take a paragraph? Sure. If a man is one who takes life, Lord, and taking into consideration time spent doing and not, whether by day or by night, then the time he spends taking life is less, and the time he spends not taking life is certainly more.

[05:28]

If it's true that whatever one keeps doing frequently, by that is one led to a state of rebirth, then one is destined for a state of deprivation or destined to have with Nagathas Nataputta's words. No one is destined, yeah. No one is destined for a state. Okay, why don't you read the next paragraph, because basically it's just more of the same. Okay. Let's see. What do you think? What do you think, head person? If a person is one who steals, indulges in illicit sex, tells lies, then taking into consideration time spent doing and not doing, whether by day or by night, which time is more? The time... they spend telling lies or the time they spend not telling lies. Good, okay. And Sue, do you want to take another paragraph? Okay.

[06:30]

If a person is one who tells lies, Lord, then taking into consideration time spent doing and not doing, whether by day or by day, the time that person spends telling lies is less. and the time the person spends not telling lies is certainly more. If it's true that whatever one keeps doing frequently, by that is one led to a state of rebirth, then no one is ever a state of deprivation, or destined to hell, in line with Nagantha Nataputta's words. Okay. So then they're going to, well, Sue, why don't you do one more? That's the case, Hedman. Or there's the case. There's the case, Chief, I guess.

[07:31]

Yeah. Where a certain teacher holds this doctrine, holds this view, all those who take life in their state of deprivation are destined for hell. All those who steal, all those who indulge in illicit sex, all those who tell lies are destined for a state of deprivation, are destined for hell. A disciple has faith in that teacher, and the thought occurs to them, our teacher holds this doctrine, holds this view. All those who take life are destined for a state of deprivation, are destined for hell. There are living beings that I have killed. I too am destined for a state of deprivation and for hell. They fasten onto that view. If they don't abandon that doctrine, if they don't abandon that doctrine, if they don't abandon that state of mind, don't relinquish that view,

[08:39]

as if they were to be carried off, they would thus be placed in hell. I have a question. Go ahead if you were going to make comments. I was just going to say he's kind of turning it now to hell being sort of like where you go after you die a little bit. You think this way, you will be placed almost as if you were taken, carried off to hell. You will be in hell. in other words yeah go ahead the state of mind is is even more important than the state of acting yeah something like that and um i think he's pointing out that the determinant the determinism is that the right word of of not to put his view there's you know there's no there's no way to practice in that you're you know you're just you're just caught of your actions.

[09:43]

Okay, so let's go a little further in this. Let's see, Gimpo, here we are. The thought occurs to them, holds this doctrine, holds this view. All those who steal, all those who indulge in illicit sex, All those who tell lies are destined for a state of deprivation, are destined for hell. These are the lies that I have told. There are lies that I have told. I too am destined for a state of deprivation, am destined for hell. He fastens on to that view. If he doesn't abandon that doctrine, doesn't abandon that state of mind, doesn't relinquish that view, then, as if he were to be carried off, he would thus be placed in heaven. Okay, so he's just finishing these. So we're back to these same five that we saw in the Kalama Sutra.

[10:48]

The precepts are sort of boiled down to these key five, which, I mean, is somewhat more manageable since it's so repetitive, I think, too. So, can I ask you something? Yeah. I'm feeling some kind of irritation with this phrase. Um... destined for hell or placed in hell, it sounds so Christian to me, and I don't have any trouble with, you know, destined for a state of deprivation, but then, you know, we don't often talk about hell in Buddhism, do we? Well, there are the six, the six, what are they, the five, the five, you know, so there's hell beings, hungry ghosts, animals, that to that extent that's the only extent that we talk about we talk um but I can understand it as a state but when I don't know maybe it's just the translation or it's what like linguistics or something it's just this idea that you're gonna you're destined for hell are you gonna be placed in hell I don't know am I the only one that's bothering that

[11:59]

You know, I think what you're saying is exactly what the Buddha's saying. He's saying this is the extent understanding in India at that time, that there was a hell, you know, that you went to based on karma. And Buddha's saying, no, hell is going to if you think this way, as one example of hell. In Buddhist cosmology, there were almost innumerable worlds that could be defined in a rough way into six kind of realms, including the animal realm and hungry ghosts, the realm of wanting, and below the realm of wanting. Not one hell and not an eternal hell, but many. And just states of being where people are driven by greed, hatred, and delusion in a much stronger way than we are. And by definition, health is extremely... is a hard place to get out of once you're in. So it feels almost eternal. But the hell realms was not an eternal state, was not one.

[13:04]

And it wasn't some kind of outside moralistic thing coming down on you. It was where you end up. And some people have taken that as just a metaphor, right? That it could be just reflective of a state of mind. That it's where it's a state of being that you is of your karmic actions. thoughts. But as we'll see, there's a lot more spaciousness around it in the Buddhist perspective. Yeah, okay, thank you, that's all. And then heavens too, right? Heavens and hell, and heavens and lots of... And Tibetan Buddhism, there's actually, well, they depicted the wheel of life, you know, and in there it's just really graphic. Yeah, the six realms are around the middle, yeah. Yeah. And like you said, Laurie, there are heaven realms where it's so good that it feels, you know, but our realm is that much more impactful for spiritual work because we have the perfect balance of suffering and of pleasure.

[14:11]

Whereas in the heaven realms, it's kind of like you're just launching by the side of the pool. Life is so incredible that you never really are taking the task. There's no motivation to practice. And I think I'm one of the highest realms of the God realm. You can see what your next rebirth is. So that right there in itself could be our realm. Cause what if you're, you see that you're going to be born as a hell being after this with the pool, you know? Yeah. And we're all getting a little bit beyond what we understand or know or sure about, which is exactly what the Buddha chides us for doing. So that's good though. That's fine. I think it was helpful to go down that little road. It might not fit into the current secular. I mean, he very like there's no mistaking that that's like his cosmology. Yeah. I mean, assuming that it hasn't been, you know, once again, the Buddha, what we talked about last week is that things could have been scholars now think that these were not necessarily all the words.

[15:19]

I think in this comparing between these other philosophies around karma, I feel confident that something like this is core to what the Buddha was teaching. I was just going to mention the concepts that are pretty key of karma and rebirth. So one would do one of these things even once, and one would have bad karma, which could, in some ways of thinking about Buddhist belief, could result in rebirth in an undesirable realm. Right. But I guess, how are we like understanding rebirth? I was wondering about that. Like, is it this sort of state of mind, another like life after life?

[16:24]

I think it's really important to realize that we don't know. And we don't, and that's one of the things that people question, whether it got changed, it got revised over time. Always this business of whether there's, reincarnation or not is one of the things that people think maybe crept back in from Hinduism into Buddhism. But we don't know. We don't know. And there's a lot about it. And, you know, I think that even in China and Japan, you know, Alan tells a story about Kategori Roshi bringing up karma. And he finally said, I can't talk to you about this because we believe and you don't. And he meant we believe in reincarnation and you don't. But I do think that of our study, the Buddha is pointing out things that can be verified by your own experience and that he's focusing on that.

[17:30]

And that's where we need to keep our focus on that also, not on hypothetical cosmological theories or beliefs in something we can verify for ourselves. So let's try, let's get to this paragraph, and let's see. Hannah, why don't you go ahead? There is the case. Oops, you're muted. Sorry, that won't work. There is the case, chief, where Tathagata appears in the world, worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in clear knowing and conduct, well gone, a knower of the cosmos, unexcelled trainer of those to be tamed, of human and divine beings, awakened, blessed. Chief, in various ways, criticizes and censures the taking of life and says, abstain from taking life.

[18:35]

Chief criticizes and censures stealing and says, abstain. Actually, the he is the Tathagata in this case. The Tatagata criticizes and censures. Oh, I thought it was the... Yeah, it's not the chief anymore. Oh, okay. You can say they, you know. I don't mind saying he... Okay. He criticizes and censures stealing and says abstain from stealing. He criticizes and censures indulging in illicit sex and says abstain from indulging in illicit sex. He criticizes and censures the telling of lies and says, abstain from the telling of lies. Want me to go on? A disciple has faith in that teacher and reflects the blessed one in a variety of ways, criticizes and censures the taking of life and says, abstain from taking life. There are living beings that I have killed to a greater or lesser extent.

[19:36]

That was not right. That was not good. Remorseful for that reason, that evil deed of mine will not be undone. So reflecting thus, he abandons right then the taking of life. Is that the person now? Yeah, the disciple. One abandons right then the taking of life, or refrains from taking life. This is how there comes to be the abandoning of that evil deed. This is how there comes to be the transcending of that evil deed. So he's basically saying it's not deterministic. This is where you can turn in a different direction. And I also want to just bring up, but if I become remorseful for that reason, that evil deed of mine will not be undone. So anybody have any thoughts about that? Yeah, it doesn't seem right. I mean... you should have remorse if you've done an evil deed and you don't plan to do it again.

[20:38]

I know. Translation. So I would, I'm thinking that it's something like if I'm swallowed in guilt, immobilized and paralyzed by guilt or something that makes you unable to abandon right then the taking of life. That's where I go with it. Any thoughts? I think it means that, um, You can't undo what you did, but you can go forward. So you did something that wasn't quite right, and you have to find a way to accept that. You can offer remorse, but you can't undo it. And you can't dwell on it either. You go forward and change the habit. Yeah, something like that. And I also question the use of remorse, because I think remorse means... You chew. I mean, like, Reb has a long thing in his book, precept book, about remorse being re-chewed.

[21:40]

You know, it's re-chew what happened as a way of sort of metabolizing it in a wholesome way. But I think what he's talking about here is something else where you're caught up in it and can't move on in some sense. I think it's also just thought versus action, right? Like, it doesn't do you and you're stuck in it. Like, it's about... Like in 12-step recovery, there's the idea of amends, which it doesn't matter if you're sorry or not. You change your behavior going forward. Oh, that's good. Something I came across in a book by Thich Nhat Hanh on one of the suttas, which kind of was not quite what it sounds like, but where he states that Lord Buddha said that... regret, which is similar to remorse, as an emotion in itself, is neutral. And it's how we relate to it that makes it positive or negative. Because it can be fuel for change.

[22:41]

Yeah, I think that's what Rev is saying. You metabolize it in some way that makes you not want to do it again because of the bad feeling you had. But here he's talking about something else, something that that doesn't lead to change in action. I want to... Yeah, go ahead. Jump in. Yeah. I like it. I look at it as chewing up what you're at, the consequences of your action, facing into it. And that's, the remorse could be that pause that way, facing in and then seeing the consequences. And... Right, so remember this is a translation, so we're trying to get at what he might be meaning here, whether it fits our word remorse or not. That's what I think, anyway. You know, you, part of... You wallow in guilt.

[23:45]

Yeah, but part of it is facing that I did this and not ignoring it. Yeah, right. And then... facing into the consequences of it, acknowledging it, and then seeing what the next step is moving forward. And recognizing that you're not going to undo what's been done. That's part of acknowledging our mistakes. It's not wallowing in it. What I'm saying is, why is the Buddha saying, why is the disciple saying, cautioning us to not be remorseful. So I'm trying to say, let's not use our understanding of the benefits of being remorseful in this sentence, but actually try to understand what is it that causes the evil deed of undone. I didn't recognize that it was cautioning us not to be remorseful.

[24:46]

I thought it was just a sort of obvious, as Susan said, well, duh, yeah, that happened. it can't be undone. I didn't get that. It was saying, don't, don't be, not be remorseful. So just a different. Okay. Okay. Rich, do you want to take it to a couple of paragraphs? Yeah. We're here. They reflect the blessed one. Sorry. The variety of ways criticizes and censures stealing, indulging in illicit sex, the telling of lies, and says, abstain from the telling of lies. There are lies that I have told to a greater or lesser extent. That was not right. That was not good. But if I become remorseful for that reason, that evil deed of mine will not be undone. So reflecting thus, they abandon right then the telling of lies, then the future refrain from telling lies. This is how there comes to be the abandoning of that evil deed.

[25:50]

This is how there comes to be the transcending of that evil deed. And one more. Having abandoned the taking of life, they refrain from taking. Abandoned stealing, they refrain from stealing. Having abandoned illicit sex, they refrain from illicit sex. Having abandoned lies, they refrain from lies. Having abandoned divisive speech, they refrain from divisive speech. Having abandoned harsh speech, they refrain from harsh speech. Having abandoned idle chat. vital chatter. Having abandoned covetousness, they become uncovetous. Having abandoned ill will and anger, they become one with a mind of no ill will. Having abandoned wrong views, they become one who has right views. Good. Any questions? So he's just doing the same thing, only he's adding in all the other, our familiar precepts, the other five precepts that we're more familiar with, more or less.

[26:52]

There's actually like three speech ones besides lying here. Any comments? Maybe not being remorseful is abandoning. Yeah, I think there's something we can connect with there. in our own experience. The Buddha also shows that his method of teaching is better than that of the Jains and that it actually can help free the mind from feelings of guilt and remorse and lead to the overcoming of past Kama. So yeah, debilitating, something debilitating. I think, I feel I can, I resonate with this.

[27:54]

Of course, I lost my place now. I think you're right there. That disciple would be the next one. I resonate with some feeling that there are things that you can meet in, Of course, I'm sure I do it myself, but it's easier to see in another person where you're just kind of stuck. You feel bad about what you're doing, but you can't stop doing it and you can't move forward and you feel bad and ashamed and you're sort of caught almost by shame in a way. So whatever words we're using, I think we can connect with what he's saying here. And it's kind of what Rich was saying, is it go forward in a different way. And that's how you free yourself from the shame and the guilt. So he's not for remorse? Again, I think we don't get caught up in the bar.

[29:01]

Whatever, we need to define our terms. So I think what he's against is something that's debilitating. Richard threw it out nicely, yeah. What? I think Richard kind of was pointed out, you know, the direction that I think, I don't know, it's going in. Because I think we can all relate to that. You genuinely feel so bad about something that you can very easily get mired in it. Whereas it almost requires a certain level of spiritual fitness or connectedness, someone to remind you or if you can remind yourself that the best way to fix... this awful thing you've done is to not only feel bad for it now, but to not do it again in the future, to become, become someone that will not be destined for more of that. I know, I know it's a translation toward abandon here. Like I think Hannah really pointed something out.

[30:03]

That's key is like the leaving things behind. Right. And I think that has to include the remorse and the guilt, right? Like, You know, I know we always talk about like the second dart. Right. And like that is kind of the second dart. Right. And so in order to like move forward, the abandonment. Right. So I think abandon is really a key word. And again, I think for some of us, it isn't the second dart, but it's actually a path to changing your ways. I'm sorry. And he does say that he says it wasn't right. I that was. Right, I mean, you're okay to say, oh, I did that and it wasn't good. But at some point where it becomes mired in debilitating something, whatever the word is, which we can't quite find here, which keeps us from making amends or keeps us from moving. We're too ashamed to say we're sorry, you know, or something like that.

[31:04]

I like how the Buddha also said that even him, he's... He's done that. Just because he's the Buddha doesn't mean that he didn't commit it. Nobody's safe here. We all have the potential to go either way. Right. Okay, so I think we're here. Oh, no, we're here. Is that where we... Sorry. No, we did that one. So let's see. Natasha, you haven't read yet, right? You guys are jumping around a little on my screen, but let's go ahead with Natasha. Cool. That disciple of the Noble Ones, chief, thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful, keeps pervading the first direction, the East, with goodwill, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, and all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading, excuse me, they keep pervading, the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with goodwill, abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will.

[32:19]

Hong Kong trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness released through goodwill is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there. So, this is what I'm bringing up about the big mind, basically. And if you remember, the name of this is the conch trumpet, so that's what they named the sutra after, the conch trumpet, which is... but blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty i i really like that image you know it's just like without any difficulty you and this goodwill is is our metta the first of the four divine abodes um his translation here is goodwill um and so

[33:23]

thus pursued any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there no longer stays there I'm not a hundred percent sure where there is I mean I guess it's in your mind if you have big mind and the limited extent well anyway let's just go on here Unless someone has a thought. At the beginning, he said a not so serious offense. He was drawing... Let me just go back here where he said... Where was that? Sorry. I'm not... finding it. This is what happened to me when I was trying to get ready for this class.

[34:27]

I kept not being able to find the things. Okay, so. I did have a comment about that. Yeah. Which was that there's this thing in the Hakuin Zenji song of Zenji. It's kind of hard to swallow, which is like, even those who have sat Zazen only once will see all karma erased. Kind of like, I don't know. It reminds you of that? Well, it's just like when I heard it in the Hakuin, it sounds really overblown or something. But here I can kind of see how you could get there using a traditional Buddhist framework. Uh-huh. And that reminds me that... What was I going to say? Say that again, Alex. What was that? Oh, right. One thing.

[35:27]

And, you know, you're freed from one thing. So basically our karma is when we act with a misunderstanding of how the self exists. I mean, that's the core with karma, which we haven't talked about yet. So karma is when you think you have a self, the things you do based on the idea of self. And so these four abodes are getting away from being trapped in that limited perspective. We do these things, these negative things, ill will and anger, we do them to establish this thing that we keep feeling is not really there. It's our self that we keep trying to establish. And the reason why it never... in a satisfying way is because it's actually not that real not as real as we want it to be so I think what they're saying is step out of that and that's gonna be the most liberating thing you can do and that's what Hakuin you know just step out of which is which is a core Buddhist teaching step out of this limited perspective

[36:48]

of your small self. And when you do that, you know, you'll both be more forgiving of yourself and others when things go awry, and you'll be more forgiving to do these things. I don't know if we can say one period is us and erases it all, but that's kind of a fake thing, you know, I think that's kind of a fake thing to both An expression of someone's faith. Maybe that means for that moment. I mean, then the next moment. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Because there is no time. Oh, Miriam, you haven't had a chance to read yet. That's right. Oh, great. So I think we're down to the last two. So take it away. Are we it? We're right here. Okay. Disciple of the noble ones, thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful, keeps pervading the first direction with an awareness imbued with compassion, appreciation.

[37:59]

Likewise, the second, likewise, the third, likewise, the fourth. thus above, below, and all around, everywhere in its entity, no, in its entirety. He keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness, with equanimity, abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, In the same way, when the awareness, relief, equanimity is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there. So it means it goes into all directions, right? It goes throughout the cosmos. Is that... I think so.

[39:02]

I mean, does your limited deed go to all the cosmos? I mean, I'm just not 100% sure, but that's what it seems like it's saying. And somehow it gets diluted. Its madness gets completely diluted. Go ahead, Hannah. Well, that's really boundlessness. Yeah. That's really what our core, or my taking of our core belief is. This good, that you release goes everywhere, as well as the bad things that go everywhere. So this is such a beautiful statement of releasing the good. I just love it. I love that phrase, awareness release. It's just, I don't know, it's very evocative. Awareness release. I just want to take this piece home with me, you know? Yeah. Okay.

[40:03]

And Miriam, let's read that last paragraph. When this was said, oh, boy, Puta, the head man, the disciple of the Niganthas said to the Blessed One, Magnificent Lord, just as if he were to place upright what was overturned to reveal what was hidden. to point out the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms. In the same way, the Blessed One, through many lines of reasoning, made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, to the community of monks. May the Blessed One remember me. as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from this for life. So those of you who were here last week, remember that what I'm calling the moment of enlightenment, the enlightenment moment of the interlocutor, which is the same.

[41:16]

I mean, it's always the same, the same little. Okay. So awareness release through big mind. This is great. It's only eight. Well, where did you see the big mind? I know you said this is fine to you, but I didn't. I guess I see the four immeasurables. Immeasurable is another word for big. I see the four immeasurable practices, loving kindness, compassion. And you wanted to bring up a different translation, appreciation, instead of sympathetic. Well, appreciative joy. Appreciative joy and equanimity. To me, I mean, is that different from big mind for you? I'm thinking I'm overlaying the two. I didn't think it was the same thing at all.

[42:18]

Because there's no fear or something. It's even bigger than these words or something. I thought these were high states that we can achieve through our practice, but I didn't think they equaled big mind. To me, big mind means Buddha mind to the states we can evolve into, but I didn't think it was the same thing. So like more unconditioned than these or something more? I guess I'm thinking in practical terms. Practical terms. This is bigger than the small mind. Maybe it's halfway between small mind and big mind. I don't know, but bigger. Biggish. Biggish mind. Well, to me, they're like the opposite of greed, hate, and delusion. That's...

[43:19]

Uh-huh. The negative, you know, the negative mind states. And big mind is sort of like not even in that conversation somehow for you. I thought it meant Buddha nature. But is Buddha nature separate from compassion and committee and loving kindness? Well, it should be contained within, contained within big mind. But isn't it everything awareness? Isn't it everything consciousness? I don't think they need to be compromised, but they need to be separate. Big minds, small minds. I don't, yeah. Right? Go ahead. It's just all, this is the vast sky. It contains everything. Like in the opening hand of thought, it says the open vast sky. does not abstract the floating white cloud.

[44:21]

So that big, expansive sky, it carries all of it. And that is the mind. That is consciousness. And each one of us have that. So yeah, for conversation purposes, we can talk about this and that, but it's all mind. That's just my view. It's okay with me if people feel like I've somehow overlaid big mind. I've limited big mind by containing it with practices. That's fine. But it's a bigger mind. There's still a relation here between karma, which is this narrow, tight. I just have that feeling like... When we act from ourself or we're experiencing something from our small self, it's this tight, narrow, bound experience.

[45:22]

And what he's talking about is opening that up however far, you know. So to me, it seems like whatever state you want to talk, I don't like that word at all because it seems to, for me, indicate some kind of gaining mind. But whatever the mind is to me, is expressed in the activity at hand. And that could change from moment to moment, depending on. One's awareness and attention, right? Mm hmm. The bigness, what we're calling big mind gets expressed in the activity, doesn't it? or smallness gets expressed. It's expressed somehow, yeah, somehow. Yeah, which is kind of what I think this whole thing is about. Calm is the way small mind is expressing itself.

[46:24]

Okay, so I have, this is great. I guess we want, do we want to take a short bio break? And then we can read some of these other little excerpts that I pulled. Okay, three minutes. Go and come back. Go quickly and come back. Don't go to the ends of the universe in this case. Laurie, I didn't get a chance to read. Oh, I'm sorry, Kabir. How did that happen? I got lost in the big mind. Oh, did you have your camera off for part of it or something? I'm so sorry. You can read first next time. All right. Actually, there's more reading. There's plenty more reading. Okay. You can read some very exciting stuff. All right. Thank you. I didn't get to read either. That's okay. Who's that? Deborah also did not get to read. I've come twice and not read in two evenings, so I would enjoy the chance.

[47:32]

But I mean, as I said, only the people who come off there, you have to come visual. I was the second person there tonight, and I have my screen off now. Oh, okay. Well, it's hard because all I've got is a little, when I've got the screen share, I've got a little strip of everybody. Well, if you can remember, I'd like to read. Thank you so much. Well, we've got plenty more to read, so yes. And Julianne, you can too. No big deal. I have no, I desire to give everyone a chance if I can. But sometimes it's a little hard to track everything. Habir, I think I recorded this week.

[49:21]

I think you can just call it Pali Suta Class 1, Pali Suta Class 2, something like that. Okay. And I haven't heard back from Paul Disco. Oh, what can we call his? Call his. I haven't had a chance to even listen to it. So how many classes are going to be on this one? Four? There's three. One more. So policy class one, two, three. Class two, yeah. Got it. And for Zeng, you let, I mean, guest lecture from long time Zen teacher, Paul Disco or something maybe. You know what? I should ask Alan. I don't think we're going to, I don't think he's going to be able to encompass what we mean by the title to his talk. I think we need to, we need to sell somehow, but right now nothing's coming.

[50:24]

So let me ask. Is he added to the system now? Is he? I'm not sure about that either. Okay. Your homework. Okay. Thank you everybody. So we're going to start with Deborah. Where'd she go? There she is. So I'm going to share to a different file. And then we'll work through these. Most of them are short, but one of them is actually another kind of long one. Okay, so go ahead, Debra. Thank you. Karma excerpts. These four imponderable. Speculated about. Whoever speculates about them would go mad and experience vexation.

[51:26]

Which four? The Buddha range of the Buddhas. The Jhana range of the one absorbed in Jhana. The results of karma. Speculation about the first moment purposes, etc. of. Cosmos is an imponderable. That is not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about these things would go mad and experience vexation. Okay. So any thoughts? I just thought, I thought that was really as a little, like we can think about comma where we should think about our deeds and whether they're wholesome or not, but getting involved in the results. I think is what he's talking about here. Getting involved in why do I, why is it, you know, why is this happening? Basically. What did I do wrong?

[52:28]

Is this my karma? Just the speculating on the results of action. Why me? He's going a little too far. Like we need to pay attention. to this at all, but he's saying, and then I thought it was kind of funny to think, go mad and experience vexation. I would say it more like experience vexation and maybe even go crazy or something like that. Okay. Any other just? Yeah, I was going to say something. I feel that some of this, the underbelly of it, to me, he's pointing to the four foundations of mindfulness. in the polyconic, you know, that it's not to be separating. It's to be with what's coming up. And this is a more friendly way of saying that all these side effects will happen. But I feel it's, it's really pointing back to the, those, you know, the mindfulness of body.

[53:32]

Yeah, body, feelings, mind, and mental qualities. Thank you. And it's probably key to the word speculating. It's a speculating thing that he's, you know, speculating is not looking at your experience. It's just a mental imagining. Maybe it's this. Maybe it's that, you know. Okay. So now we're going to do the, and this can be Julianne. Fala Sutta. Let's try this one. Okay. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Monks, for anyone who says in whatever way a person makes Kama is experienced, there is no living of the holy life. There is no opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says when a person makes Kama to be felt in such and such a way, That is how its result is experienced.

[54:35]

There is the living of the holy life. There is the opportunity for the right. So go on a little. There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here and now. And for the most part, barely appears for a moment. Now, a trifling deed done by what sort of individual takes them to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in contemplating the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment, restricted, small-hearted, dwelling, suffering. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual takes them to hell. Now, should I go on? Oh, might as well just... Yeah, let's go on. Let's do another paragraph. Okay. Now, a trifling evil deed done by what sort of individual is experienced in the here and now barely appears for a moment.

[55:42]

There is the case where a certain individual is developed in contemplating the body, developed in virtue, developed in mind, developed in discernment, unrestricted, large hearted, dwelling with the immeasurable. A trifling evil deed done by this sort of individual experienced in the here and now, and for the most part, barely appears for a moment. Good. Okay. Thoughts? This reminds me of like, I don't know, have you ever like laid in bed at night and just ruminated over like the same thing that happened, you know, the dumb thing you did in high school. It's coming back over and over again. This kind of makes me think of that feeling, you know, like you just get really hung up. on individual actions rather than just being like, you know, I'm here, I did this, and, you know, I abandoned it, right? Yeah. There's a middle way thing going on here with karma because if there's no person, if there's no self, then who is receiving the results of the karma of this moment in the next moment, you know?

[56:57]

So it's like, and that's why... If we go so far into no self that we say, it doesn't matter, I have no control and it doesn't matter what I do or something, that's going too far in one direction. But if we obsess about ourselves and what this is saying about ourselves and what this means about ourselves and what we can define ourselves based on this action or that action, then we've gone too far in the other direction. I think we all experience this. But, you know, it's sort of, it's one of those, like, thread the needle kind of things almost. Seems like this is that awareness, really. Kank Sutra, about, I was confused about that line, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there. In the other one, right? Yeah. You know, it just barely appears for a moment. I mean, do you think, like, is that tracking?

[57:59]

I think it very well could be. It's definitely connected. It's related. It's the same translator, so it's not like it's just a matter that they're translating it the same thing differently. Laurie, I didn't get the first paragraph from this one. Can you scroll up again? Sure, sure. Julianne, why don't you read it again, and then you can read the part about the salt crystal, which is pretty cool. Monks, for anyone who says in whatever way a person makes comma, that is how it is experienced. There is no living of the holy life. There is no the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says when a person makes comma to be felt in such and such a way, that is how its result is experienced. There is the living of the holy life. There is the opportunity for the right ending of stress. Can you give an example? I have no idea what that means. What's the difference between the two ways?

[59:07]

One is, well, I mean, I think what I'm understanding, again, reading between the lines a little bit, the first way is the deterministic way. Whatever way you do, that's what's going to happen, basically. That's how you're, whatever you did, you're going to experience the results that way. There's no opportunity to change, to make a different choice. So, exactly what they, comma, to be felt in such a way, that is how its result is experienced. Again, let's get back to understanding that comma ripens as feeling, not as things, solid things. Of course, our actions have consequences in other ways, but the essence here is the feeling. So if I'm feeling, I'm not quite getting it.

[60:15]

If I'm feeling annoyed, which I am because I've been multitasking during this class, annoyed at myself, I think, mostly. So you're... I think... I don't know how this fits in, but I do feel that having... I wouldn't say remorse, but... Yeah. This doesn't work, actually. I need to pay attention. And so I asked that question, like, wait, what? So I can't... I don't know where I'm going with this, but I'm sort of accepting... accepting the situation was uncomfortable, and then it gives you choices, right, of what to do next. Someone today who I was talking with, a very long-time practitioner who I met with, told me, we were having this conversation, and he told me, the way I've been able to reduce stress in my life is not by doing more,

[61:26]

things that I think are good, but by taking a look and trying to drop something that is not useful or that I don't think is helping or that I would even consider bad. I don't know if he said bad, but just this conversation is reminding me of that. So it's not that I have to do more good things. It's that I have to reduce the things that cause me stress abandonment maybe uh-huh i don't know if this is relevant yeah i think that this whole sutra is a commentary on this first paragraph so we don't have to get bogged down in this because he's explaining it down below um that's where that's where i'm going but what susan's saying makes it's kind of like less uh-huh That doesn't explain this wording, does it? I mean, are you saying for you it explains this wording about whether it's to be felt this way or, you know?

[62:33]

Well, I heard this analogy one time. Imagine you're walking by with a hammer, keep hitting on his head, and he's complaining about a headache. Well, the first thing you tell him is you may want to put that hammer down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Well, just what I noticed between the two sentences, like in makes comma, that is how it is experienced. And then the other sentence, when a person makes comma to be felt, like the difference is the addition of to be felt and then how its result is experienced. So like the first, I take the first sentence as like, I think of the times in my life when I was multitasking or whatever, and I regretted it, you know, or, and then that would be an example of the second sentence because of the, I regretted it, you know, and I like sentence in whatever way a person makes comma, that is how it is experienced.

[63:44]

It's kind of more like dictating something that they're doing and saying, telling them that's how it's experienced. It's more concrete and less in the realm of experience, I think. Say something concrete about it. One observation I have is how this compares to the one before about going to hell. It seems like the flaw that the Buddha is pointing out is when you're looking externally for... for verification that what you're doing is good or bad, rather than studying how things are arising internally. I mean, that's how I take it. Yeah, that was good. I thought that seemed pretty clear. But let's get down to the salt crystal. Anybody not read yet? Kabir. I think Kabir has not read yet.

[64:46]

Oh, Kabir, I'm sorry. Jesus. Okay. Well, I've been talking too much. Do you think I've been reading? I wouldn't say too much. Okay, suppose. Yes. Okay. Suppose that a man were to drop salt crystal into a small amount of water in a cup. What do you think? Would the water in the cup become salty because of the salt crystal and unfit to drink? Yes, Lord. Why is that? There being only a small amount of water in a cup, it would become salty because of the salt crystals and unfit drink. Now suppose that man a salt crystal into the river Ganges. What do you think? Would the water in the river Ganges become salt?

[65:49]

Salty because of the salt crystal and unfit to drink? No, Lord. Why is that? There being a great matter of the river Ganges, it would not become salty because of the salt crystal or unfit to drink. In the same way, there is the case where trifling evil deeds done by one individual, the first, takes him to hell. And there is a case where a very same sort of tripping is done by another individual who's experienced in the here and now. And for the most part, barely appears for a moment. Monks, for anyone who says whatever way a person makes karma, that is how it's experienced. There is no living, of the holy life, there is no opportunity for the right ending of stress.

[66:56]

But for anyone who says when a karma to be felt in such and such way, that is how it's resolved in experience. There is the living of the holy life. There is the opportunity for the right ending of stress. So maybe this is something we can reflect on this week. Because I like these, and I think analogies are useful. Thinking about this Salkris line. The other thing that I thought of as you were reading is, he's not really addressing big evil deeds, right? Like, let's just set that aside. Try to learn the ordinary things that we've been talking about, like multitasking or whatever. Let's try to understand... what he's talking about or what, how Kama unfolds, not speculating, but in our experience, in these sort of like ordinary days, what you might think of as trifling evil deeds.

[68:03]

He's not really talking about, you know, I mean, in the other one, he talked about, you know, the five grave precepts, but, yeah. I don't know if that makes any sense. Gloria, I just have to say, I feel so much better now. Thank you. Yeah. I just like the thing about the River Ganges, and that's where I was getting back to the big mind. I don't know whether, you know, it's just like you, if you're in the Ganges, what happened, you know, what you do is contained within that and understood and held within that. And I think Suzuki Roshi uses the same analogy. And I see the Suzuki Roshians in my beginner's mind are category Roshi and returning to stillness uses the same analogy. It doesn't say the river Ganges, but it's a large lake. Exactly. Which is like this idea of sort of like being able to receive equanimity, basically, being able to receive everything and be unperturbed.

[69:14]

But, you know, I think it's kind of a warm kind of equanimity. It's holding everything, you know, it's with compassion and friendliness and appreciation. May I add something? Sure. What just popped in my head was what the Buddha always said, we are not our sins, we are not our fault. But we still have to take responsibility. exactly exactly but at the same time we cannot get right we cannot just all get fixed to like oh this is me i did something bad and i'm the most horrible person in the world that god will never forgive me and i'm going to go to hell i think that's what gets us in trouble the sin itself you call it and maybe let's just study that this week because we're talking you know like what we're talking about is like our multitasking you know or whatever our trifling evil deeds And I wouldn't even say evil, you know, trifling. What was the thing?

[70:18]

Careless. Careless. Actions. I think that goes along with like the river and cup analogy as well. Right. Because like the river keeps flowing. Right. So there's a new moment and a new opportunity. Right. And so that like the cup is still. Right. And it is that way. And once you drop the salt in there, you know. and so that you have an opportunity moment by moment to choose differently, that choice seems to be really key, right? And that matters so much. Yeah. One time when I sounded the bells one too many times, Sojin came up to me to tell me, by the way, did you know you sounded the bells one too many times? And I said, oh yeah, I'm really sorry. I said, I knew it the minute I did it. And he said, okay, number one, Don't say you're sorry. You don't need to say that. Number two, that's really good.

[71:19]

And he said, the most important thing is recognizing you made a mistake. Period. Uh-huh. Yeah, and the sooner the better is kind of what Buddha is saying here, I think. And that's kind of what Mel was saying, too, I think. I still have a question about this last paragraph, which is the same as the first paragraph. Right, right. And I don't see the difference between the two sentences. Yeah. Well, right now I'm chiding myself because I think it would have been good to have looked. I just didn't zero in on this. I was thinking about the salt crystal. I think I need to look at the other translations a little bit. Because the main point is that somebody lives a holy life and someone else doesn't live the holy life. And I don't see when you get not to live the holy life. Deterministic.

[72:22]

So temporarily, until I look at the translations and get a better idea and maybe ask a few people, if you're caught in a deterministic attitude about it, you're going to be stuck in a deterministic universe. means what? It means what goes around comes around. Yeah, what goes around comes around and you can't change that. Like if you did it, you're going to have to pay. Okay. And in the way you get to the crime, don't do the time. If you want to do the time, don't do the crime or whatever. And the other one is how you experience it is how is how you make different choices. Something like that. That's sort of the best. Anybody else? Paying attention to how you're experiencing it is what's going to help you make different choices next time.

[73:26]

Something that I thought was interesting in conjunction with this is the statement, my actions are my only true... Yes. Thinking about lately and I, I kind of, something I just realized after hearing about this salt crystal sutta is that you can, you can give up your possessions. So, or you can let go of your possessions. So if you have, if you've met, you have made or done and you want to give it up, maybe you can, you know, I mean, you can't give it up in the past, but you can give it up in the future. Well, and that's kind of what Rich was saying about the 12 steps, I think. That's a way to give it up. You acknowledge it, you make amends, and you do it differently next time. I mean, that's the A-Bs of correcting a mistake, you know. Okay, well, I'm just going to tell you about these other two because clearly our time is running out.

[74:36]

So one of them is the one where... Another teacher talks about whatever an individual feels, pleasure, pain, neither pleasure nor pain, is entirely caused by what was done before. And the Buddha says, no. Basically, there are cases where some feelings arise from bile. And even the world agrees that some feelings arise based on bile. So he says, I use this nice phrase, Any priest who teaches that whatever you feel is entirely caused by what was done before, they slip past what they know and slip past what is agreed upon by the world. And then he goes to these other things, phlam, internal winds, bodily humors, the change of the seasons, uneven care of the body, harsh treatment, and karma. So he has all these other things that

[75:39]

happens it's not just karma and the people who say that are slipping past both what they know for them for their own experience and what is agreed upon in the world there's a lot there wow i've never come across this funny that because we nowadays which is a really top-down view of like buddhist theory of everything's a story and then it can be like a blanket statement that's Because there are some things that aren't merely what we've done in the previous moment, but have some kind of deeper seed that are mental, right? And I really like this harsh treatment coming from outside, right? I mean, that's kind of what people are looking at now. Wow. Yeah. Uneven care of the body. Yeah. I mean, what does he mean by karma then, you know?

[76:42]

Yeah. I think it's, yeah. So, I mean, this is not easy stuff, but that's why we're tackling it. And I'm just going to quickly, because this other longer one, I got very bogged down, but basically this is another one with Nataputta, who in this one, Nataputta says that of the three kinds of karma, of action, he believes that perpetrating evil deeds is worse than and verbal offense and mental offense are so the buddha takes him through all these situations where he has to admit that actually it was the person's intention that made it a wrong thing to do so buddha is saying no mental action is more determinative than bodily action or physical action So, I mean, maybe what I should do in the Google Drive so you guys can read it for yourself. And this is just a portion of it, because it's very involved.

[77:47]

First, one person comes to the Buddha, and then they go back and tell Nataputta, and then Nataputta sends the other guy to debate him, and it's sort of complicated. But the basic gist of it is... Well, we're running out of time, so I can't go any further. But this one is called... the Upali Sutta, which happens to not be, it's not in Access to Insight, I think, because it's got some weird stuff in it. But I'll share this with you guys. Okay, so anybody else have a last comment? Yeah, I had some questions. Like you listed at the end of this particular document, all these MN 21, how do we access those? I didn't quite know how to find them. those are on this website if you you don't even need a link i mean it's called access to insight you can just search for access to insight thank you and it's got all the poly scripture well actually there's a few he doesn't do every single one but almost all of them and and that one that had the links is from that so the links all go website they're all part of that does that make sense

[79:05]

Yeah, thank you. Anybody have any? And, you know, it's really an amazing thing. You can you can put in a key word like comma and then, you know, and you can just journey in that realm for hours and days. And sort of, you know, it's easy to get a little bit lost, which I've done numerous times. OK, let us I'm going to stop this share. I'm going to share our closing chant. and um we've got one more class and we're going to do a really difficult to not a difficult to understand but a difficult to face and experience sutta so but we'll all be doing it together so it'll be fine and it's also got a hilarious scene which is pretty unusual in it probably Okay, so our closing chant, Thich Nhat Hanh's version of the four vows. And let's do this in the cacophony way.

[80:08]

But remember, don't wait to hear the word. Just launch. Because if you wait, then you'll be behind. So just don't list anybody else. Just go for it. Set, go. However innumerable beings are, I vow to meet them with kindness and humility. We don't have it. Yeah. Can you share it? I don't have it. I'm looking at it. What's the problem? Where is it? I'm joking. I'm joking. I forgot. Where the heck is it? Here it is. Okay. Take two. Take two. Mark. Get set. Go. However. Yay team! Okay, thank you.

[81:28]

Thank you so much, everybody. Thank you, Lori. See you next week. Thank you. Good night. Good night.

[81:45]

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