penetrating and perfect dharma is rarely met with, even in a hundred thousand billion kaphas. Having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept, I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Good morning, everyone. in Zoom land, as well as in the Zendo this morning. Today I have a great pleasure to introduce my dear old friend and BCC longtime member, Bob Rosenbaum. Bob received lay entrustment from Soji Roshi, as well as in the Ordinary Mind lineage of Barry Magic, a disciple of Joko Beck. Bob is committed to lay practice and a founding member of the Lay Teachers Association. He has been a teacher of Qigong for many years, and professionally, Bob is a semi-retired neuropsychologist and psychotherapist and continues to teach and consult on pain management and on single session psychotherapy.

[01:17]

I posted online a long bio of Bob, which I am in today, but safe to say, He's published a number of books, and we'll be talking about some of that today. And there's some complimentary bookmarks on the patio bulletin board shelf for people to take who are present. Bob, thank you so much for showing up today. Thank you so much for being here for me to show up to. It's really... nice being here. It's been a long time since I've been here. I see a lot of old friends. I see some people who I think are old friends, but it's a little hard behind the mask to be sure that you are who I think you are. And I was reflecting

[02:26]

Part of me is tempted to just discard the talk that I planned and just reminisce. But I found myself thinking, it's been something like 10 years, I think, since I've been here. But it's always felt like I've never left. And I still feel very close and grateful for all of your practice and all that is given me. So maybe we'll have a chance to reminisce a bit later, but right now I do want to talk about the Sarangama Sutra. When we chant the lecture, opening chant. An unsurpassed, penetrating and perfect Dharma is rarely met with.

[03:32]

It's a little misleading. It's there all the time. It's not that the Dharma is rare. The Dharma is everywhere and everywhere. But we rarely need it. And to have it to see and listen to Well, we often don't see it, and we often don't hear it. I first became interested in the Surangama Sutra when I encountered a koan about it in the Book of Serenity. And the koan goes, the Surangama scripture says, when I don't see, why don't you see my not seeing? Well, if you see my not seeing, that's naturally not the characteristic of not seeing, because you're seeing, you're not seeing.

[04:36]

But if you don't see, and when you don't see my not seeing, it's naturally not a thing. How could it not be you? It's one of those, come on, where you think you're going along, okay, do it, gets to the last. few lines. Basically the Surangama is about how no thing exists. Every thing is an illusion, but that doesn't make it unreal. Things don't exist, but beings are numberless and ungrasped. and we're constantly not seeing this, which is wonderful.

[05:41]

I want to read a little section from the Sarangama Sutra. Consider contemplating consciousness This consciousness is intermittent. Its existence in the mind as well is only an illusion. How then could this consciousness guide beings toward a breakthrough to enlightenment? No practice is entirely continuous. Even mindfulness perforce arises and must halt. intermittent practice and intermittent practices results are intermittent. How could awareness guide all beings to enlightenment? It's not your usual depiction of consciousness and awareness, is it?

[06:53]

So we need to be really kind and grateful for our unawareness, as well as our awareness. Because the Dharma does not come, nor go, nor rise, nor fall. I've been in dialogue with various people about the nature of consciousness, and a lot of the Surangama Sutra is about this. and about mind, and I'll get into that in a moment. But the whole issue of awareness, we keep practicing, wake up, wake up, wake up, but sleeping is pretty good too. And sometimes I think I'm most enlightened when I'm asleep. At least I'm not doing any harm at the time. Maybe not accumulating any karma, although

[07:58]

Karma's relentless. So instead of talking about awareness these days, I like to talk about awe, A-W-E, awe, awareness. Awe. The longer I practice and the more I'm around, I'm just in awe of this hand Feeling this book is amazing. Here's all these people, there's Ron scratching his chin. The fact that you can feel an itch and scratch, it's amazing. We're sensate beings. And our senses mislead us all the time. But we think they're telling us what's actually happening. Well, they are and they aren't.

[08:59]

So, everything, everything is an illusion. I'm going to just summarize the Surangama Sutra bit. Everything is an illusion except being, but being neither is nor is not. and is and is not. How do we not get caught in is and is not? This is liberation from birth and death. It's what we're talking about. It's always about liberation. So no things exist. There's no is or how do we get not caught by is and is not by birth and death, but karma is relentless. So we need to establish a place of awakening.

[10:06]

And when we practice, whatever practice we do to be aware that it's intermittent, and so we need to go with whatever practice we do, go to the enlightened basis of that practice. That theme occurs again and again and again. I was talking with Andrea Thatch, who many of you know, and I've mentioned, just go to the enlightened basis of this practice. And she said, well, yeah, how? That's the question. But how can you not? Go to the enlightened basis of practice, and there you'll discover Well, you have a lot of experiences, but don't think you're a sage. That's key. But do discover compassion and liberation and love.

[11:11]

Susan Moon in her book is written about you get older and you can't do anything except you can still love. So the Surangama Sutra starts, it's got a great story. It starts with sex. That was the other thing which attracted me to it. Ananda's going around on his begging grounds and he comes to a brothel and, you know, as well, I should beg there as well. And there's a Matanga woman there who has been, uh, ensorcelled by a demon with a magic spell, and she seduces Ananda. And they're going at it hot and heavy. And Buddha off in his grove goes, oh, Ananda's about to break his vows. And he manifests the Surangama Sutra from the top of his head and sends Manjushri out to it to rescue Ananda and the Matanga woman, and poof, transports them back to the grove.

[12:25]

And Ananda goes, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. And Buddha basically says, look, let's just get to the basis of this. Don't apologize. Just, you got into this because you were deluded. You were deluded. Your senses led you astray. So, look, what motivated you to seek enlightenment? And Ananda says, well, I saw the thus come one and I was dazzled. I delighted in them and I loved them with my mind and eyes. There's the word love. I loved them with my mind and eyes. And the Buddha says, it is the fault of your mind and eyes that you are bound to the circle of birth and death. Ever thought of your mind and eyes that way?

[13:31]

Someone who does not know where his or her mind and eyes are won't be able to overcome the stress of engagement with perceived objects. We'll come back to the stress of engagement with perceived objects. So I'm now asking you, Ananda, says Buddha, precisely where are your mind and eyes? Well, that's pretty good. Practice. Where are my mind and eyes? When you're practicing, where is your mind? Where are your eyes? So the thus come one raises his golden-hued arm and bends his five fingers, each of them marked with lines in the shape of a wheel. And he asks Ananda, did you see something? And Ananda says, I did. And the Buddha says, well, what did you see?

[14:34]

And Ananda says, I saw the thus come one raise his arm and bend his fingers into a fist that sends forth light, dazzling my minded eyes. And the Buddha said, well, when you saw my fist emit light, what did you see it with? And Ananda says, well, I saw it with my eyes. And all of us, we see it with our eyes. And the Buddha says, well, your eyes can see my fist, but what do you take to be your mind that was dazzled by it? And Ananda says, well, it's my mind that I've been using to determine where your fist is. My mind is that which has the capability of making such determinations, where, what, when, things like that. And the Buddha says, Ananda. That is not your mind. That's why I titled this book, That Is Not Your Mind.

[15:40]

While startled, Ananda stands up and he places his palms together and says to the Buddha, If that is not my mind, what is it? And the Buddha says, It's merely your mental processes that assign false and illusory attributes to the world of perceived objects. These processes delude you about your true nature unless you are bound to the cycle of birth and death. This is happening all the time. Right now, you think you see someone and hear somebody lecturing. Not so. Is so. Neither is nor is not so. Both is and is not so. That's the Tetralemma, yes? Uh, what's going on here? I don't know. In Zen we talk a lot about not knowing is really, isn't it?

[16:47]

And the Surangama Sutra basically says, you know what? You really don't know. Really, really, really, really. Which is quite wonderful. To know you don't know is the beginning. But who knows? That's a good question. Who knows? The Buddha says, what are the two fundamentals? The first is the mind that's the basis of death and rebirth. The mind that is dependent on perceived objects. It is this mind that you and all beings make use of and that each of you consider to be your own nature.

[17:50]

So in the book, I call this I-mind. It's our ego mind. It's the mind which functions and says, this is the book. I'm here. You're there. It's very useful. It's what most of us think of as our mind. And remember, thinking is just one of the skandhas, right? It's right up there with smelling and tasting and hearing and whatnot. Dogen says, The mind is able to make everything its object, but that mind is not the teaching of Buddhist ancestors. We're constantly objectifying and we think the objects are real. Sexism, racism, Trumpism, Bidenism, Zen.

[18:52]

objects of mind. Don't be misled. Because the second fundamental is full awakening, which has no beginning and no end. It's the original understanding, the real nature of consciousness, all conditioned phenomena arise from it. Yet it's among those phenomena that beings lose track of it, even though it's active in them all day long. So this is the mind of the great sage of India. And in the book, I call it OM Mind. Trying to invoke that OM Mind. And everything is This is the mind-only school of Buddhism, but it's not mind as we usually think of it.

[19:58]

It's universe, being and non-being, beyond being and non-being. It's where everything comes from, or where everything appears to come from. So Kezan Jokin says, and he's quoting Dongsheng, Right now within everyone, when ideas about two classes of ordinary and holy, when ideas about OM mind and I mind do not arise or cease in the least, there is a subtle consciousness unrelated to being and non-being, keenly aware, but without attachments. Apart from passionate thought and discrimination, at all times it's preaching keenly. It makes you raise your eyebrows and blink.

[21:00]

It makes us walk, stand, sit, lie down, be confused, get into trouble, die here, be born there, eat when hungry and sleep when tired. You might know Dogen's fascicle, The Triple World is Only Mind. in which he says walls, tiles, pebbles are mind. Mind has thinking, sensing, mindfulness, realization, and is free from thinking, sensing, mindfulness, and realization. Blues, yellows, reds, and whites are the mind. The spray of water, foam, and flame are the mind. Spring, flowers, the autumn, moon are the mind. Each moment is the mind, yet it can never be broken. So what is the mind that can never be broken? Do you ever feel like your mind's kind of a little off?

[22:13]

That's the mind that we struggle with, that struggles with us. But what's the mind that can never be broken? It's not our thoughts. Those that come and go and are right and wrong and change. Our hearing, our smell, our feeling. The Surangama Sutra basically teaches these are like mirages, thoughts, feelings, sensations in the Heart Sutra. No form, no feelings, no perceptions, no formations, no consciousness. Those are just

[23:14]

They have no existence of their own. They are simply, simply, awareness and all its conditioned objects are the pure, wondrously understanding, enlightened mind itself, which in the Surangama Sutra is usually called the matrix of the thus come one. The matrix. the basis. So whenever we say that and make an object, that's not the mind, but this very mind is us. Tozon's realization, I'm not it. It actually is me.

[24:16]

Buddha mind. Here we are, little fragments of Buddha mind floating around. I've been reading about the cell, the cell biology, and it's amazing stuff in every cell of your body. has these ribosomes, and lysosomes, and mitochondria, and epithelial substances, and some people think it's the gel, the cytoplasm, which is really controlling everything, and some people say, no, it's the membrane, which is sending messages, and no, it's the nucleus, well, the nucleus, and it's just... going all around and it's butting up against other cells. And somehow they're all cooperating, but they're all competing. And here we are, each of us is one of those little cells in this universe. And we're going, oh yeah, I understand this.

[25:22]

Not at all. Not at all. on the one hand, nothing exists, except the matrix of the Thus Come One, the great mind, we sometimes call it big mind, and every appearance and every existence, it's just an illusion, but it's real. To which Buddha's listeners say, I don't understand. There's a great part where Purna Maitrayani Putra says, I might as well be a deaf man trying to hear a mosquito from a distance of more than a hundred paces. I couldn't even see the mosquito, let alone hear it. I mean, how can all of the aggregates form, feeling, perception, information, consciousness,

[26:27]

How can they be the mind of the great sage of India? How can they be it when there's no it? And Buddha basically says, well, you see, you're trying to understand, and that's kind of problem, and you're still caught in is and is not. Master Hua, in his commentary on the Surangama Sutra says, There is no is, or not, space, objects, time, like our awareness are the true mind. And if you don't understand, and one of the things I love about the sutra is constantly, again and again and again, people like Anandra and Shariputra and wise sages are saying, I don't get it. To which Buddha says, Still trying to understand, huh?

[27:29]

An enlightenment to which an understanding is added cannot be true enlightenment because it means it was lacking something. And an enlightenment that lacks understanding cannot be true enlightenment because it's lacking something. Buddha says, once the category of something understood is mistakenly established, the category that which understands is mistakenly established as well. So there's a split between understanding and I'm the one understanding. It's the basic, the M&M problem, me and my. the basic ignorance.

[28:30]

I exist separate from you, it, us, the mind. So Buddha kind of sighs and he says, look, you're very sincere. I'll quote, it is to be feared that though you are sincere, you still do not quite trust. the teaching. Ask yourself, do you trust this practice? Do you trust the teaching? What can you really trust in? Let me pause for a moment there, because this can seem somewhat esoteric, but This came to me, the Surindama appeared to me at a time in my life when I really needed it.

[29:34]

I've had chronic pain for 30 years, but in the last 10 years, really, since leaving Berkeley Zen Center, my health has been pretty bad. I have an autoimmune disease, I have problems breathing. And then, okay, I kind of found a way of dealing with that. And then I had a mild hiking accident. I just stepped into a hole I didn't see. Talk about seeing, not seeing. And jammed my spine. And pain reached levels that I didn't know were possible. And I thought I knew something about pain. I teach pain management. had a lot of strategies for dealing with it, and none worked. And Qigong didn't save me, and Zen didn't save me, and I woke up in the middle of one night and said, I can't stand it.

[30:45]

And fortunately, because of my, because of practice, our practice, not mine, when I went, I can't stand it, another part went, oh, you are standing it. When your patients have said, I can't stand it, you've always gone, well, there's various ways you can deal with it, but you are standing it. I'll be sympathetic, but let's just find a way of dealing with it. And nothing worked, except going whatever To say it works is not quite right, but to go to the enlightened basis of pain is very helpful. How do you do that? Because suffering is everywhere, every moment.

[31:47]

The more awake you are, the more you see the constant suffering of just being alive and dying. and growing and loving and hating come through the territory. What's the enlightened basis of suffering? What's the enlightened basis of your practice? This is the real stuff that we need to get to. So the Buddha says, look, you don't trust the teaching. I'll have to make use of another everyday situation to dispel your doubts. And so he says to the attendants, and I'll ask Ross, could you ring the bell? You're small. Oh, you're small. That one. And Buddha says, you hear the bell? Everyone hear the bell? Yeah.

[32:49]

Okay. And Ross, can you just put your hand on the bell? Now do you hear the bell? Everyone goes. No. The Buddha says, do it again. Go ahead. Variation. Take one. Do you hear the bell? Now you hear it. Once more, let's see which one you choose. Do you hear the bell? Now you hear it. Everyone goes, no. To which the Buddha says, Why have you given such muddled answers? Everyone goes, what do you mean? You struck the bell, we heard it. Bell faded away. We didn't hear it. Buddha says, no, no, no, no, no. You didn't distinguish between hearing and sound. You thought you heard the bell when it was ringing and didn't hear it when it wasn't.

[33:51]

But in that case, how could you know the sound had ceased? you had to be able to hear the sound's absence. Your true, unconditioned hearing awareness, the enlightened basis of your hearing, includes both sound and silence, is more fundamental than sound and silence. Your true, unsurpassed, complete, perfect enlightenment is more fundamental than delusion and realization. It's inescapable. Which, on the one hand, is a relief, and on the other hand, then you have to live up to it.

[34:55]

People walk around thinking they're unenlightened. There's no greater delusion than to think that you're not enlightened. Some people go around saying, I'm enlightened. That's a big delusion. Enlightenment is us. It's you. It's everyone and everything. But how to practice it? How to put it into play. That's the question. Every moment. And sometimes we swing and hit a single and sometimes we strike out and they're both part of the game, so to speak. So that's kind of the first half of the Surangama Sutra is devoted to shaking up our notions of, I know what I'm feeling.

[36:03]

I know what I'm thinking. I'm separate from what I'm thinking. I'm separate from what I'm feeling. There's a me here that can perceive a world there, a world inside me, a world outside me. No, no, no, no, no. Water and waves, waves and water. No beginning, no end. So the rest of the Sarangama Sutra, after quite an extensive analysis, which really blows your mind, says, okay, so let's talk about how to turn around the outflows. Helpful as being any practice which engages with objects and return to the enlightened basis. And Buddha says, he gives another example.

[37:10]

He takes out a, well, what is this? Okay. He says, okay, so. Now what is it? Now what is it? He says, oh, the thing is, we're constantly walking around. And if you came across this, maybe you wouldn't know what it was. He says, you have to undo the knots. And you have to undo the knots in order. One at a time. If I try and undo this knot, well, that's not going to work real well. But the Tao is kind of nice in that it says, when you undo a knot, well, you might pull it in from here, you might pull it in from there, but you undo it from the empty center.

[38:18]

That's what allows the knot to open. So you tug on it, you tug on it to show the opening. And that's what we're doing in Zazen all the time. That's what we're doing in our practice all the time. So a good way of practicing is just noticing where your knot is and go, that's an illusion. That's not what it is. But it really is, pardon the pun. Where's the center? And when I'm in pain, one thing I've discovered is, if I can go to the center of the pain, and that can be pretty difficult. And it doesn't matter if it's emotional pain or physical pain.

[39:22]

But our practice helps us learn how to go to the center. And when you go to the center, you go, okay, okay, well, there's a center here and there's a center there. Well, let's go to the center of those centers. And you go to the center and you go, well, actually that center, what's the center of that center? And if you keep going to the center of the center of the center of the center, it's an infinitesimal point. It has no dimensions, right? A good way of doing that is if you meditate on the mudra and you place your thumbs together as lightly as possible. And you bring them back a little bit towards yourself. And from a suggestion from Sojin, I did this for about a year once here. And you go to the center of the touching.

[40:26]

You just do that now. Where's that center? What's that center? It's alive. You can't pin it down. And the world kind of disappears. and comes right back. I see that time is coming, so I want to just wind up. So, the Surangama Sutra goes on, and it says you establish a place for awakening. You realize there's certain behaviors that if you try to practice and enter samadhi without renouncing killing, You'll be like somebody who will hope nobody hears them shout just by stomping up their own ears, like cooking sand in a Christ.

[41:30]

There's just certain ways you have to act, which certain ways, if you do act, it's just going to muddy the waters. And then there's 25 accounts of 25 sages and how each of them found realization. They're all different. But the last one was . And he went to the, he listened. And he listened not to sound, but to the enlightened basis of hearing. And he describes how sounds disappeared. And he heard the cries of the world. And came back. to practice compassionate love. Love is simply bowing, bringing our hands together, bowing to each other with reverence and joy.

[42:35]

This is love. We're constantly touching and in touch and out of touch with ourselves and each other. It's impossible and we keep doing it. It's amazing and hard to understand and yet you know it. So I think I'll end with... I wrote a poem a long time ago and I keep coming back to it. I'll end with a poem and then I think we'll have time for some questions. How wonderful there is no thing to be grasped. despite this self that, striving to let go, clutches firmer. Folding the laundry carefully, making such straight lines, I double back upon myself, a wave watching waves create a beach of footsteps, salt, and stars.

[43:38]

Breakers never reach the shore, sloughing their crests in sprays of light, with the world moving, with the waves standing still and old rock welcomes lichens, mosses, moons. Each strand of seaweed can only be itself. One word in conversations between tides and land, here wind becomes the ocean disappearing into sand. Here we are. Here we are. Thank you so much for letting me be here with you. Maybe you have some questions or comments. Good to see you. Yeah, I read your book, and I admired it a great deal.

[44:43]

It reflects a lifelong inquiry into truth, and you achieved contemporary wisdom, so thank you for it. And I've carried this story about the bell. We hear the bell when it sounds, and we hear the bell when it's silent, and sort of considered it with my emotions that I feel the feelings that I feel, and I feel the feelings I don't feel. It's kind of been a a way of looking for wholeheartedness. Just one other detail I carry from your book. You talk about relaxing your hands and noticing how many times a day your hands clench up. And it's been an influence on me that I notice the same thing now too. Oh, thank you so much. That makes me so happy. One of the first things I learned in Qigong I loved my teacher's hands. And so for the first year and since then, just to notice when my hands would start doing this, there's a wonderful book.

[45:56]

It's by Uchiama, Opening the Hand of Thought. Yeah. And then when you can open up the hand of thought, you can just, sometimes you hold it, and sometimes you go, whoop. And so would you chance, you know, he would talk sometimes about how you bring your hands together and bring the five factors of enlightenment and five factors of delusion together. And that's always been a really helpful teaching for me. I try to remember as much as possible to do things with both hands. It helps me center. I often forget. But when I can remember, that helps. Thank you. Yes, Alex. Yeah, I had a question about Qigong.

[46:56]

When I was doing training in Japan, in modern Rinzai, Qigong is really central to the practice. I would even say that the monastery that I was at there'd be no way to last there without doing Qi Gong, you know, as part of your practice. Since coming back here, I've had a hard time holding it in. It doesn't feel like part of the conversation almost. What if you have any advice about that? Can they hear online? Yes, people can. Good. So... I'm so fortunate to have stumbled into my relationship with my qigong teacher. I'm so fortunate. It really helps, like anything else, it helps to be in a community where people are practicing in the body.

[48:01]

And whether it's tai chi or yoga or qigong or Feldenkrais or whatever, Qigong is simply harmonizing body and mind. But there's so much, so many ways of doing that. So, standing up, simply standing, is one of the most difficult Qigongs. And so, In our Qigong, in Dian Qigong, we stand with our feet really parallel, and the weight evenly distributed between both feet, about shoulder width apart. And frequently during the day, I'll notice, oh, I'm standing like this, or like this, or I'm kind of leaning, and then to go like so, and just, it's

[49:06]

constantly finding the center again and again and again and finding there's many centers but and i will confess to you when i first read about finding the center i couldn't find it i had no idea how to do it and i find it's very helpful to to get very concrete to notice when you're sitting, okay, is my weight evenly distributed across my sitch bone? This is a Qigong. So, to find the form for your Qigong, whatever it might be, I mean this, is a qigong.

[50:09]

Every time I bow at the altar, at my cushion, and I forget who it was who wrote about making offerings at the altar, saying, and a very well-respected Roshi, who said, and every time I do it, I feel awkward. I found that very comforting. Because it's not on whether I mean, every once in a while it feels, ah, just right. Foot off. And off is your signal to look for on. So it's sort of ordinary, but it really helps to be with a community which is focusing on this and has specific methods and forms and practices. my school up in El Cerrito, which does it, and there's many different forms of Qigong.

[51:13]

Finding your Qigong. Lifelong quest. Thank you, Bob. Are there any questions online? Oh, Ron. Ron has his hand up. Yeah. Ron, thank you. Hi, Bob. So good to see you. Thank you. It's nice to see you too. What's the difference in your, if there is any difference in your mind, in your mind, between the word mind as you've been using it in the Srirangamba Sutra and the way you've been discussing it, and the word nature that we commonly use, chipmunks, trees, people, stars. What's the difference between those two words if there is any difference? There's a Dogen quote that I can never remember properly where he says about sameness and difference.

[52:21]

It goes something like, although not the same, not different. Although not one, not many. What's your answer? My answer? True nature. Not nature, because nature we think is separate from us. No, why is that? Ah, that's our original delusion. No, I don't think nature is separate from us. Well, good, then you don't have anything to worry about. So true nature, true heart, true mind. You know, words are problematical, any word. It splits it off. So, seeing you, true mind, true nature, hearing your voice, seeing the little yellow hand on the screen, that's it.

[53:31]

Okay. Thanks. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. I think everyone has my email, and so should you have other questions? I love discussing this. I enjoy it. So I'm happy to continue in conversation. Conversations between sea and land.

[53:55]

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