Welcome everyone to the second out of four classes on the Heart Sutra. Before we begin, I'd like to invite Colleen Bush to offer a dedication for this evening's class. Thanks, Karen. Some of you probably already have heard the news that there is a young resident from Tassajara who has gone missing. She went for a hike Monday morning, and she has not been returned to Tassajara, and she has not been found. I just checked before we came online, and there is not an update. So I don't know Carolyn well at all. I met her last summer, but she was remarkably kind and warm and welcoming. You can see it in her smile if you just see the news articles. Various people close to her have expressed a wish that we try to stay positive and keep the flame of hope lit.

[06:08]

So tonight, let's offer our study of the Heart Sutra to Caroline and her loved ones. Let us send our heartfelt wish that Caroline is safe and warm and has shelter, is without pain or fear. and sustained by the love of her community and the determination of those who are searching for her. May Prajnaparamita and the waxing moon light her way home. Thank you, Kali. Okay, so to continue from last week's class, we actually, we talked about the title, and we talked about the first four lines of the Heart Sutra.

[07:19]

And some of the important themes, just to review, are what is Prajnaparamita? What does it mean that Avalokitesvara was practicing deeply? So Prajnaparamita is not something to acquire or achieve or to own, but it's a practice. We started to talk about emptiness and what it means to be saved from suffering. or liberated from suffering. There are many translations, of course, with some differences of the Heart Sutra, but we're using the one that we chant here every day, but there are words we can substitute that make it more accessible. So, in this Sutra, Avalokiteshvara is speaking to

[08:30]

Shariputra. And Shariputra is, he was considered the wisest of Buddhist disciples. And he was skilled in the Abhidharma, which was a systematized teaching of how the early Buddhists saw things. So, it continues. Shariputra, form does not differ from emptiness. Emptiness does not differ from form. So here, when I started chanting this, the first word form is confusing to me. However, form really means Well, it means physical things to us, like the body, for example.

[09:35]

But it also means pretty much whatever we actually experience. This table is a form. The computer's a form. Your knees are a form. So, but actually he's saying that all these things are actually empty. So one would ask, empty, empty of what? It's empty of having a permanent, independent nature. Because everything... is interdependent and arises what we call conditioned co-arising, which I'll talk about a little later.

[10:43]

So forms, things, us, don't have an independent existence or a permanent existence. We can easily understand that to a certain extent because we see the impermanence of our own bodies. How were we when we were children? Are we at all like the child we once were? Of course, in a way, we are. In a way, part of that child is still with us, but in other ways, we're not. We're aging. Some of us have gray hair, painful hips. Other people who are younger have developed into adults.

[11:49]

So right there, we see that we don't have an independent, permanent nature. We've experienced losses. We've lost people we love. Then the next line, emptiness does not differ from form. All of us in this room and out there on Zoom, all of you, including all the objects in this room and outside, we are all forms of emptiness. It's important to know that

[12:54]

Emptiness is not a thing but it's the nature of things. Emptiness and things like forms are not different. Prajna Wisdom is our nature. And compassion is our action. I don't remember who said this. I believe Sojin said it, but I can't be sure. But emptiness... is our nature.

[13:55]

So what was revolutionary about this is that when the Buddha taught, it was understood that we did not have a solid self, that that was an illusion. However, he broke it down into, for example, the five skandhas, which are addressed in the next couple of lines in the Heart Sutra. In the skandhas, the Buddha acknowledged, he said, these are heaps or aggregates of which we are made. So the aggregates, which you're familiar with, we have form, the body, feelings, perceptions, formations and consciousness. We chant this every day. But back in the early Buddhist time, it was believed that these skandhas had some kind of existence.

[15:07]

So this sutra, Avalokitesvara, is going into a deeper understanding that actually These five skandhas do not have a permanent independent existence either. At the same time as we will see, emptiness doesn't mean this doesn't exist. One of the later slightly later, scholars, practitioners, thinkers, Nagarjuna, who I'm sure many of you have heard of, he wrote many verses called, I forget the exact translation, but it's Understanding the Middle Way.

[16:17]

And what that middle way is, partly is we don't exist as we know, as we think we do. And we don't not exist. Now people often get caught, for example, to some Zen students, particularly people who are starting out, the idea of emptiness is rather appealing because people believe that emptiness or that suffering is empty, pain is empty, they believe that, oh good, this is empty, then I don't have to feel pain, or I can go beyond this world. But actually, it's all about living in this world. What we don't want to do here is reduce everything to concepts.

[17:27]

Emptiness can become a concept, and that's where it's a bit dangerous, not to mention untrue. So, okay. I'm going to go on a little bit before we talk, but I do want you to think about a few questions that I put together that would be helpful or might help you in thinking about this that we could discuss. One question is, how do you respond to the declaration? No eyes, no ears, no tongue, no body, and no mind. Where do you go with that? Especially when you chant it, but also Tonight, what is your response when you hear all dharmas are empty?

[18:33]

And by this dharma, I'm talking about dharmas with a little d, not the jewel that's the dharma. The three jewels are Buddha, dharma, sangha. That's dharma with a big d. However, dharma with a little d is like things. When you sit down to practice meditation and a bunch of things are going through your mind, those are dharmas. So here, the sutra goes on to say, all dharmas are marked with emptiness. They do not appear nor disappear, are not tainted nor pure, do not increase or decrease.

[19:41]

So here everything is relational. Pure and unpure is a duality and it's manufactured. For example, there's no such, you can't think of pure unless there's impure. So, here it goes on to say, in emptiness there is no form. No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind. I'm gonna just explain something about the sense organs

[20:56]

In order to see or hear, there has to be three things present. The first thing for hearing is we have the ear organ, okay? That's part of our body. The second thing that's present is an object. You just heard a chant of the Heart Sutra. So for us, that's an object of hearing. So we have the ear, we have the object of hearing, well, the object, and then we have sound consciousness. So that's our awareness of sound. So this sutra addresses All those three things and saying they're all empty.

[22:00]

It says no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue. And that's the subject. Then the object checked. No color, no sound, no smell, no taste. There's the object. So here we are in the, yes. Go ahead. When I was working for Paul, I asked him one day, if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? And he said, what's a tree? And that's, it reminds me of this. And you got enlightened, right? That was Yoni's comment. And a handful of peas, and I was like, oh yeah, what's a pea? Did you all hear that? Just, you heard it? Well, Yoni was sharing a story when he was working for Paul Disco, who's a long-time, very old student.

[23:03]

And Yoni asked Paul, if a tree falls in the forest, is there a sound? And Paul responded, what is a tree? That sounds like it belongs in the... It's a good one. Temple, the plum... Plum Tree Temple record. Ross? Thank you, Karen. I was actually thinking the same story that Suzuki Roshi was asked. With the subject and object, if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? And Suzuki Roshi is reported to have responded, it doesn't matter. which is another way of not getting caught in it, but still we're studying, as you put it, laid out subject, object, and then the consciousness or awareness of the two. Well, thank you. Did you hear that one?

[24:04]

Yeah. Suzuki Roshi said it didn't matter. I remember Sojin being asked that, and somebody said, well, doesn't the rabbit hear it? So... Anyway, go ahead. I have that question about not the tree, but when I die, will you all still be here? That doesn't matter either, right? Well, it probably matters to us. Okay, I'm going to go on a little. I'll get you in a minute, Charlie, okay? Okay. I appreciate that. So by the way, so I just wanted to finish this one thought. So here we have the subject, eyes, ears, nose, tongue, mind. Remember that the mind is a sense organ in Buddhism.

[25:06]

And then we have the object, eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, no, excuse me, no color, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, No object of mind. So mind objects are basically thoughts, which is what we deal with a lot. And then it says, no realm of eyes until no realm of mind consciousness. So here we're dealing with number three, the consciousnesses. No eye consciousness, no ear consciousness, et cetera. And believe it or not, In an essay I read, I think it was D.T. Suzuki, but I'm not sure, had a whole essay on the 18 emptinesses. So there you go. Charlie? Oh, thank you, Karen. I have a feeling that all of the negations are dealing with permanent objects, permanent dharmas.

[26:18]

And there is no mind because there's no permanent mind, no permanent eyes, no. Correct, yeah. Any of them. Well, I don't know if I said this last time or not, but you can't take your ear, cut it off, and put it on this table and then say it's an ear. I mean, you could say that, but it wouldn't be true because it couldn't function as an ear. so that but yes you're right that that's what it's saying there's no intrinsic intrinsic inherent nature to these things being listed or if we're trying to find it you know the the the wheel cart i mean the car the cartwheel where this is all kind of how this all started which part of the wheel is the wheel yeah So I'm taking it apart, where's the wheel?

[27:23]

Exactly. And then if you pick up each part, well, that's not the wheel. Right. Then when you put it back together, well, there's a wheel, but then you take it apart again. Is the wheel separate from its parts? Or is the wheel its parts? Where's the wheel? Well, everything's relational. That's a little hard for us to hear, Karen. I don't know if it's so right. Okay, I can repeat that. Kabir was talking, comparing this to a car. I had talked about the ear, putting the ear on the table, and Kabir mentioned a car. How do you say what's the wheel of a car? The wheel exists in our conceptual mind because it serves a function. And it's a part of what we conceive of as a car. But you take the car apart, is the wheel a wheel?

[28:28]

I mean, here you have all these parts. It doesn't move the car along. Marley. Thank you. You mentioned relational. And I've also been thinking of it the other way, where I don't know what a sound is except through my ear. And I don't know what sounds are when I don't notice them, when I'm not aware of them. So you can go round and round and round. find the other two in each one of them, and you're never going to be able to pull one part of this away and say, this is the whole picture for me. Well, I think I heard you say at first, you don't know what a sound is without your ear.

[29:29]

Is that what you said? Yeah, yeah. Well, truthfully, it's the three things, though. We have what we call mind consciousness. Now, there's a teaching in Buddhism. I think that Vasubandhu from the early part of the Common Era wrote about this in his 30 verses, but he describes what we often call eight levels of consciousness. Sojin loved to talk about this. But one of those levels was mind consciousness. And, you know, you could do a whole course, eight weeks on just this topic, so I don't want to jump into it, but there are many aspects, these consciousness include

[30:40]

things like sense consciousnesses and what's called manos, yeah, manos, which is ego consciousness, that consciousness that's always looking out for me. And mind consciousness is actually a rather deep awareness. But it's also the thinking mind So it's the mind that says, I see this, I think this, I taste this. So that's mind consciousness. Does that address what you're saying? Yeah, thank you. Okay. Let's see, where was I? levels of consciousness?

[31:42]

Yeah, I'm not going to go into all that because that's a whole course in and of itself. So I'm going to go on and talk a little bit more about prajna. We don't say that a person, he, she, they, we don't, in this kind of prajna paramita, we don't say that she has wisdom. Here it would be, she is wisdom. Back to Sojin's remark, which I just love, prajna is our nature, compassion is our action. Because with prajna, realizing prajna is... realized when one is not the center of things.

[32:45]

It involves dropping body and mind, as Dogen liked to say. So when we are not operating from self-centeredness, we become very attuned to the suffering of other people, which is what Avalokiteshvara was known for. that the bodhisattva of compassion, because of this selflessness and the thousand arms with an eye in it, they could hear and reach out to all that we're suffering. That happens because of selflessness. And our practice here Zazen is our enlightenment practice, or as Dovin said, practice enlightenment, that they're not separate things.

[33:49]

I remember my first dokasan was Sojin, which was like 44 years ago. It was a sushin. And I was indignant that he kept saying we had to sit zazen, and he wasn't sitting zazen. He was talking to people. And I kept saying, my first question was, when do you sit zazen if you're giving dokusan all day? And he said, I'm sitting zazen while, no, I'm sitting zazen while I'm doing dokusan. And I kept insisting, that's not possible. You're talking. You're sitting in front of me. You're talking. You just laughed, you know, this, that. And he must have had to say it to me five times. I'm sitting zazen while I'm doing dopasan. So... So much of our practice teaches us to develop and realize Prajnaparamita.

[35:07]

So, for example, there's the Eightfold Path, and the Eightfold Path has three categories. Wisdom is one category, or one branch, you know. The second one is ethics and morality, and the third is concentration because in concentration that we developed through, we're removing, we're lessening our attachment to distractions, to all of those things that we grasp at, the things that we crave, things we don't want to have happening. And The cultivation of tranquility through zazen is really important because it's through that tranquility, that slowing down of this rapid thinking and analyzing and worrying.

[36:21]

When that slows down, and I know last week I talked about this gap, this kind of spaciousness. When that slows down, you can see these little dharmas arising much more slowly. They don't all of a sudden come rushing to assault your mind. You see them as they actually arise. And then it's easier to let go. Let me ask, I'd like to ask if there are any questions or responses, comments, before we take our break. Ross? Thank you. What's your understanding of Sojin's response around that question? Because I was actually asked that question also, just in a general way.

[37:21]

I said basically the same thing. They were responding to reading Suzuki Roshi, zazen is the most important thing, and Sojin is sitting in the zendo for just a little bit of time, but in the hut more of the time back in the day. Do you have, looking back on it, a sense of the separateness or no separateness between that? Well, it came out of noticing that Sojin wasn't in the zendo that much. He was in there always in the early morning before breakfast, But he was often gone, and I soon learned it was because he was giving Doka-san. But I began to realize that what he is doing is compassionate action. Because we don't sit zazen all day. You know, that's not Prajnaparamita.

[38:24]

Practicing Prajnaparamita is not... just sitting alone in a cave or at home. There's all this interaction. In fact, here, Avalokitesvara is speaking to Shariputra. He's teaching. So that's how I see it. It took me a while to accept it. Yeah. Well, the thought that is stressed so much that we think if we're not cross-legged or on a bench, or the Zendo that we're not doing it. And there's a story about someone asking Suzuki Roshi, when does Zazen start? And he said, it never ended. Did everyone hear that? I like that. You heard that? Good. Yeah, well, you know, Stogen loves to talk about continuous practice. That all beings, that we're practicing all the time.

[39:24]

Helen. I've heard Zenju say that Zazen is a prolonged ritual of seeing and listening, which to me makes me think of a state of receptivity. So I think about that and what Sojin said, and maybe this is a state of receiving, of openness, of receptivity. that he's practicing in Donguslan. That's what comes to mind. Yeah, I like that. We are receptive in a sense that we're not chasing after things during zazen. Our practice is not to cling And that enables us to be more receptive.

[40:32]

I have a question. Okay. The five Skandas. Yes. The first one is form. Yeah. And then the fourth one is formation. Yeah. How are those two related? Well, formations are meant, it really means mental formations. Okay, so form is more physical. Formations means mental formations. They're often concepts and thoughts that build upon each other. They often create karma, ideas. Formation. Yeah. In fact, there's actually a text that Sojin showed me once. I'm not sure if this was Vasu Bandhu or somebody in that group, but apparently there are 51 mental formations.

[41:38]

And you can find that list probably somewhere here in this library. We actually have something here called the Book of Lists, or a collection of lists. I can see Ross is starting to look. So they're like thoughts? Yeah. Yeah, constructions, concepts. Yeah, Hozan taught a Yogacara class a few years ago in the 51 formations came up. There was somebody like a boredom was one, I think sleepiness was one, curiosity was one, it's that sort of thing. Did you all hear that, what Pauline said? Okay, Pauline said that Hozan taught a class in Yogacara, which is this particular teaching that I'm referring to, a few years ago in that he referred to the mental formations as things like curiosity, sleepiness, boredom. I forget all the others. There are all sorts of them. So it's a very interesting and slightly potentially overwhelming, but if you think you

[42:52]

your list of problems is short, you should just read the 51 mental formations and get some new problems. That's not, it's not all problems, I'm joking. Okay, so it's 8.01, I thought we'd take a five minute break, okay? So how about we come back at like, Seven after. Okay, we'll continue.

[50:28]

Okay, so in the Heart Sutra, after we've talked about the sensory experience and the mental experience. No eye sights and eye consciousness. No mind or thoughts or mind consciousness. So we get through negating all of the skandhas. Then we come to the line, no ignorance and also no extinction of it, until no old age and death and also no extinction of it.

[51:36]

Now, this is another very important thing basic teaching of the Buddha, which is the teaching of dependent origination. This is more about that things don't have an independent, permanent, intrinsic self. So some of you know about the 12 links in the chain of dependent origination. So basically, this is a circle because there's no beginning and no end, really. However, we talk about it as though it has a beginning because dependent origination, oh, excuse me.

[52:41]

Suffering, old age, death, birth, they all have causes. And there are 12 causes, or there's 12 links in this chain. And one leads to another. That's how kind of we get to where we are. Like, why do we have old age? The cause of old age is birth. That's one example. But what is the cause of birth? And then, so it goes all the way back. And it begins, the very first, actually number 12 is old age and death. Number one is ignorance. And the reason ignorance is number one is because it is our fundamental delusion. Sojin used to say, everything is delusion.

[53:51]

I mean, he was talking about us and our lives. It's all delusion. So our delusion is, you know, I am me. Whatever this self is that we believe in, that's our delusion. So when the Buddha was sitting under the Bodhi tree on the seventh night, or the night before his dawn awakening, we know the story of what happened. Among other things, he was taunted by Mara, the personification of evil, whatever you call it, temptation, sexual seduction, delicious food, all kinds of things to desire, to distract him from his purpose of waking up and realizing what liberation is.

[55:02]

And Mara taunted him also about Who are you to think that you, some guy, can actually understand this? Throughout the night, Buddha saw how everything came to be as part of this chain. I'm not gonna go in, this could take hours, so I'm not gonna go into detail, but I'm gonna name what's in the chain, because in the Heart Sutra when it says, no ignorance and also no extinction of it, no old age and death and also no extinction of it, ignorance is number one, old age and death is number 12.

[56:11]

it's implying there that they're going through the whole chain. So I'm just going to tell you what's in the chain. One is ignorance. And you can find this in a lot of places if you don't want to write it all down. Number one is ignorance. Number two is karmic formations. Because once we believe we have a self, Karma just starts rolling along. The third one is consciousness. The fourth one is name and what they call name and form. These are the skandhas. Number five is the six sense organs. Number six is contact. So we become in contact with something.

[57:12]

And number seven is sensation. So when we become in contact, there's a sensation. Out of the sensation comes craving. Now, Number nine is grasping. There's craving, you can feel desire arising, but you have a choice about whether you're gonna grasp it or not. This is a really crucial point in the chain. After grasping comes becoming. Then you're you. then birth you are born and finally after birth you get old if you're lucky and eventually you die so anyway this is the cycle of samsara um

[58:35]

And this, so upon ignorance rests this entire house of cards. So one thing that I learned actually from Vipassana teachers was to really notice what happens between craving and grasping. You know, you can sit zazen and a thought kind of floats by and sometimes thoughts are like clouds. You know, they just arise, they move, they dissolve. But sometimes there's a thought that's particularly appealing or infuriating or whatever. Whatever our state is in the moment, we might just really grab that thought and run with it. So there's a choice here between craving and grasping.

[59:41]

So in the Heart Sutra, basically, once again, Avalokiteshvara is saying that none of these things have permanent, intrinsic essence. That is not independent of Correct. Yeah. For example, birth. I mean, birth happens because of so many factors, right? It's not really a thing. Okay, so Buddha has said that She who sees dependent origination sees the Dharma. And she who sees the Dharma sees the Buddha. So this link, this understanding of dependent origination is the key to liberation, according to some teachers.

[60:57]

You know, it's one way of saying it. So anyway, I'll stop talking for a while and just see if there are any reactions or questions about that. Do you have a reaction? Okay, Jim, go ahead. I always find the 12 links next thing. Oh, okay. Difficult to fully understand, I guess. Mm-hmm. And the other reaction I have is that, um, so I've been negating concepts essentially, you know, physical, you know, what we think of as physical. Is she not also negating that we, we try to hang our hat on aspects of the teaching as things? And that it's not just Earth that we're letting go of, but that we're letting go of this categorization of the 12 links as a thing that is... Yes.

[62:02]

Did you hear Jim's question? Jim's statement. Yeah. Okay, good. That's so true, because a lot of what the whole point of this sutra is for us to drop our viewpoints. And places where, you know, you can't hang your hat anywhere. That's one thing I've learned over the years. So forget about that. Except, actually, this is where I think sangha fits in. We practice together and we help each other. But anyway, yes, you cannot hang your hat on any idea. Dependent origination. I do. Can you describe that a little more?

[63:04]

The fact that everything is completely interconnected. Nothing is independent. The whole, everything. I think about that. I depend on it. And you find that fulfilling. Comforting, reassuring, elucidating. But I really cling to it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Sojin used to, I used to come to him often with... questions about what do you depend on? What do you lean on? Because it just seemed really hard. So he often said, trust in the universe.

[64:07]

I'm sure all of you said this, but I was very skeptical. I didn't like that statement. But recently, reading more of Thich Nhat Hanh, and realizing that we are the universe. I thought when he said trust the universe that he meant, oh, the universe is something out there that's supposed to know what's good for everyone or gonna take care of you. But Thich Nhat Hanh says in his book that's on this reading list about how we are, the universe, that we're all made up of all, you know, the sun and the rain and the soil and other people. So thank you for that. Thich Nhat Hanh, his main thing is how everything's interdependent. I mean, that's like in one word, Thich Nhat Hanh's teaching, and that's it.

[65:12]

So I read this whole book, The Other Shore, which is about the Heart Sutra, and every chapter says, basically the same thing, that everything conditions everything else and creates everything else. Nothing can exist without other things. So is that how we're supposed to understand that no eyes, no ears? It's that negation word. He says, too, I remember that that's like the most confusing part of the heart suture, that negation. Yes, it is. And it's confused Westerners, like crazy. But I still... I don't know how to think about that, but no. Is it no eyes, meaning I don't have, I wouldn't have eyes if I didn't have a face? Yeah, that's part of it. Interdependence again. Of course, whales have eyes in other parts besides the face, but yes, that is what it means. And air and water and you can go on and on and on.

[66:16]

What's essential? to an I being an I. Yeah. More like a subject and object relationship. Yes. One cannot exist without the other. Well, you know, often the Japanese word mu, you know, is used. It doesn't really mean no in the same way that it does to us. I mean, I think, you know, Westerners, people who speak English, Think of no as absolute and kind of void or just that there's nothing there. I mean, I found it very depressing the first few years. But actually, what I'm hoping people get from this class is some enthusiasm for the Heart Sutra, to feel nourished by it. Yeah, part of that sense of no is that no ignorance and also no extinction of it, that it's neither affirmation nor negation.

[67:24]

That's the Nagarjuna middle way. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I think the challenge is for us to both hold and also accept that what we're holding is itself empty. So the 12 links are something that we hold and they provide insight. Yeah. Can you hear Jim out there? Sorry, am I speaking too slow? Okay, they can't hear you. Can you say that again a little louder? Yeah, I think the challenge in practice is to, you know, what do we call the two truths? We hold both at the same time. You know, hold the teaching and also realize that it's also empty, right? Hold the concept, but also realize the concept is empty. Don't get caught. Don't get caught. Right. can you do that rationally or logically i mean i think that's why it's so fun to play with move because you can't get to where you need to go can you hear that go back and forth okay okay not everyone can hear but jim was talking about um how you have to hold both things it's the relative and the absolute

[68:41]

worlds that we hold together, the world of what Nagarjuna calls conventional reality, which is we are sitting in this room at this table. You are on Zoom in your homes, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then there's the absolute reality. And that is form and emptiness right there. Also, This is an aside, but Sojin used to tell me that this mudra that we hold when we sit zazen, that it's form and emptiness coming together. One hand is form and the other is emptiness, and they touch, holding this circle. So that's one thing that helps me remember. But yes, it's very important in the sutra because it says, No ignorance and also no extinction of it.

[69:44]

Okay, so we're not getting rid of anything here. So we have to live in this world with all of its suffering and our suffering. Sazen is not an escape in our practice. Emptiness is not a place, a thing. I saw Julianne's hand up, and now she's taken it down. Julianne, do you want to say something? Go ahead. Well, I wasn't sure if my internet connection is good enough, but... I just wanted to share my very first reaction to hearing all the negation in the Heart Sutra the first time I heard it. I was kind of impressed with the sort of maturity of that expression, just because I felt like in other religions, there's this way of trying to sugarcoat things or saying you're going to get to heaven or...

[71:01]

You know, all this kind of all this stuff that's very unrealistic. And so hearing all this no, no stuff for me was very refreshing because I just thought, yeah, no. And it just it instantly kind of made me feel so free and liberated from all the what I thought were just kind of, I don't know, maybe lies of other people. religious attitudes. I don't know. Actually, that's really encouraging because I actually haven't heard that reaction, but I think it's a really, really good to hear that that was helpful and comforting to you. So thank you for sharing that. There's nobody else online.

[72:06]

Go ahead, Kabir. Just speak up. Okay. So I'm kind of looking at the 12-link, and we encounter this every day, every moment in our lives. I mean, it's just really fascinating how we constantly set ourself up. But reading through this, it kind of gives a map of, okay. All right, this is my karma or formations in the middle of this. And then I'm conscious of it. And then next thing I give things to name. Okay, that's good, that's bad. I like that, I don't like that. That's beautiful, that's ugly. And then I start to crave. Okay, maybe I should have another slice or maybe I should do this. But then there's the fork, eight and nine. Then I can... even at the grasping, and then the rest.

[73:10]

But then at the end, death is, I think, is that action that we perform, or the thought that came and it's gone, and then it gives birth to the next one. Yeah. To the next one. So it's just constantly, it's a loop. If we get caught in that, the 12 links. Yes. Yes. One gives... birth to the next. Yes. That's why in Zazen, as we settle, they slow down more so that one can intervene because the more kind of agitated or busy you are, the more they just give birth to more and more things. So Zazen creates a space or the pause? Yes. Yeah. I see.

[74:11]

Did you have your... Yeah, I just wanted to ask about the no ignorance and also no extinction of it. So that means you can't escape ignorance? Because I thought that's what our whole practice is about. Trying to... get beyond ignorance to deeper understanding and enlightenment. So is that saying it's not possible to escape ignorance? That's what's confusing to me. Well, when you are able to let go, particularly of grasping, you're dropping yourself. Ignorance is this total belief in oneself. You can drop the self. However, we are living in both realities, too.

[75:13]

You know, we have to have a self. You know, that's how we make decisions. But I know we have to have a self, but the ignorance is believing, believing that you have a separate self, believing in that. I think we can drop it, but it always comes back. I think it's one of these things that, you know, you can't permanently put it out. I think that's true. Also, did you hear Pauline said it's the kind of thing you can drop it, but it keeps coming back? According to Buddhist philosophy, We all have karma that's different from each other to some extent. Supposedly, you know, the early Buddhists wanted to get off this cycle.

[76:15]

They just wanted to, like, exit from the whole thing. And they believe that... you can extinguish your karma and eventually never come back, never do birth again. But in Mahayana Buddhism, which is what we practice, we take a bodhisattva vow that we are going to continue on living in samsara until all beings are liberated. So We don't worry so much about that because of our commitment to helping others. But we do practice because we need to let go of our self-centeredness in order to help others. I think Marley has her hand up.

[77:21]

Thank you. I've been thinking on exactly this topic here, which is. That I I think I find something maybe always have found something very relieving in that. The two sidedness, the no ignorance and no ending to it all the way through that chain, because it helps me remember somehow that. You don't have to eradicate all your problems before you start practicing. Thank you. I get something in a minute, so thank you. Did you have your hand up, Ross? Yeah, I was thinking about Mira's question about ignorance and thinking about getting rid of it. And you were saying that we don't get rid of anything, it's all included. And when I reflect on what I've been ignorant of, and then I have some insight, I'm no longer ignorant about that particular thing in my life.

[78:35]

And it's the same thing with awakening. We can continue to awaken and deepen our understanding just as we can continue to deepen our ignorance or maybe come out of it a little bit. So they're still there, these two poles that you were talking about. but our relationship to them is different. It changes. And I was also thinking about how Soji would say, saying one thing, the opposite is inferred. So to say no, it means yes. But that doesn't make sense in our dualistic thinking. But when you're talking about no as negation, it kind of drops all that stuff. And I think you said we... wake up into it, or we drop body and mind in that no, because the body and mind is what's separating us from things and causing our suffering. So no becomes yes, no ignorance, and right on. That kind of thing. So they kind of go together.

[79:37]

So we think of them as separate. And it's so frustrating, you know, no, no, no. I don't like no, I want yes. you know well we're about five minutes away are there any other um thoughts or anything anyone libby libby and then patty Thank you so much, Karen. I wanted to go back to the notion of balancing the relative and the absolute. Yes. I understand that we live in a conventional reality and bearing in mind that all of the facts and goings on in that realm are interdependent.

[80:48]

But I'm flummoxed about the absolute and what it might mean to balance that. I would have thought it was ineffable. And so I don't know what that means. Are you saying you don't know what the absolute means? Okay, you're nodding yes. Yes. Well. That's something that has to be experienced. However, I will use some conventional reality words that dropping oneself is part of it. I mean, that's what we do in Zazen.

[81:54]

We're sitting in the absolute. It might not feel like that, or it's not our idea of what the absolute is. And we have to drop our ideas. But in Zazen, we're coursing, practicing Prajnaparamita. Thank you very much. Thank you. Patty? Hi, Patty. I don't hear you. Are you unmuted? Now I am. Okay. Hi, Karen. Hi. Hi, everybody. It's great to be here with you. I haven't been in a... anything with Berkeley Zen Center in some years. But I attended years ago.

[82:57]

I attended a full day with the Dalai Lama on the Heart Sutra down at Shoreline. Maybe some of you were there, too. And at the end of that day, I found myself enormously depressed. I mean, it took me down. And later, you know, I reflected on it later. I think, in part, I felt like it was a cultural thing, that actually the Dalai Lama coming from where he was coming from, the things he was speaking, they felt very true, but I felt like they wouldn't depress a person of his culture, but of Western culture, they did. And before that, I loved the Heart Sutra. I've always loved the Heart Sutra. I'm not an analytic kind of Buddhist scholar type. I'm a Sith type. So I haven't done a lot of study. I've done, you know, sporadic. And so I signed up for this because I thought this might be a different opportunity.

[84:01]

And in fact, it is. And I'm grateful for you, Karen, doing this and for everybody's comments, too. It's really a very wonderful experience for me being here. I feel like I wanted to... heal something from that old experience, because I knew it was just my, you know, my deluded experience at the time. And I wanted to see if I could come to a better place with the Heart Sutra. Thank you. Thank you. It's good to meet you. I just want to say one thing about the Dalai Lama that Patty reminded me of. A few years ago, the Dalai Lama gave a speech. And he said, I've just come from a Buddhist scholars conference. And then he paused and he said, there's no greater suffering than a Buddhist scholars conference.

[85:04]

Oh, dear. Or no extinction of it. Anyway... We have about another minute. Jim, did you have your hand up? I did. I just wanted to respond to Patty's comment. One of the books on the reading list is a book on Indian Mahayana thought by D.T. Suzuki. And so I've been reading that through the open library, by the way. You can read it online without having to look for a copy at home. And in the first chapters where he talks about the development of the concept, he says, The teachers kept telling their followers, don't be alarmed. Don't be depressed. Don't be scared. Because they were freaked out by this concept as well. So I don't know that it's just cultural. It's not just North America. Well, that's actually comforting. The concept of emptiness. So we're not alone. And those people we keep reading about who are in the audience...

[86:15]

you know, 2,500 years ago, had the same problems. It's not a good word. And people have changed the word. They have changed it. Boundlessness feels much better than me. I mean, it really feels good. And emptiness always felt like a void. So I'm happy that translation has come into use now. Yes. Okay. Charlie, you're going to have the last word. Well, thank you, Karen. You were talking about the Dalai Lama, and I remember seeing the Dalai Lama on a YouTube program video about Dr. John, the New Orleans pianist and singer. And Dr. John was getting... a doctorate degree in music from Tulane University.

[87:21]

And the Dalai Lama was there, standing shoulder to shoulder with Dr. John, and he took out one of his gift white scarves and he put it around Dr. John's neck. I mean, it was really quite something. And you can... you know, if you're skilled at calling up YouTube, you can see that. Well, thank you. Well, the Dalai Lama is a very kind person with a sense of humor, too. Exactly. Anyway, I really appreciate you all being here tonight, and I appreciate your comments and questions um i learned a lot from listening to you so we will gather again next thursday

[88:36]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_92.8