And then in the case of self-identity, to see what's going on for us and to have an idea about how to ground ourself if we're having an identity quake that really gets us unsettled and throws us off balance, makes it hard to think or feel, hard to be present. And we talked some about nervous system regulation and that there are many places to find resources about that to support you. So the second part of the book, Difficult Conversations, is about having or deciding not to have a conversation with someone. And there is no right or wrong decision about this. It's really your choice, your individual choice. If you think this is a good idea, you're up for it, you hope that it will have a positive outcome. There are lots of reasons not to have one. there may be better ways to go about what you want to achieve than having a conversation.

[01:03]

Some people really don't like to process. Not familiar territory, hard for them, etc. That's not necessarily a reason not to, but it's really one of the reasons to consider that there may be other ways to go about it that are maybe more effective. Linda, can you still hear me? So some of the reasons... that you might decide not to have a conversation with the person, could include maybe you discover in the process of going through this that the real conflict is inside you. This is, you know, you're having feelings. It doesn't have so much to do with the other person as it does with you, regardless of how it felt in the beginning. Do you have a purpose in having the conversation that makes sense? that could lead to a positive outcome, including, like, are you actually open to and interested in hearing the person's point of view? Does that matter enough to you to want to do it?

[02:07]

And we'll get to more about that later. Also, you can't make people change. If you're just going to vent or let off steam, that's not so much having a conversation, that's just venting. It might be helpful depending on your relationship with that person, especially if they understand that you're venting. You know, I just need to vent. And I can't talk about it right now, but I need to say this and we'll see what happens later. Are you okay with that? But just going in and kind of venting, often not helpful. I think we all know this and sometimes... we can still get caught even though we know that. And it just kind of comes out in a way that we didn't anticipate or something happens and we kind of go off. It also doesn't work so well to make an indirect statement or comment about the situation rather than being more direct.

[03:17]

Something like, oh, late again I see. They call that doing the drive-by. You get it. Enough said. It gives you plausible deniability. I didn't mean anything. I was just noticing that you're late again. Which obviously reads as really passive-aggressive. Yeah. Afraid to say something and actually pretty mad still. And they bring up a really good question, which is that if you decide not to have a conversation, how will you move forward from that conversation? It was important enough to you to sit down and think this through. If you're deciding not to, are you able to let it go? Or what would be the possible implications of not having the conversation?

[04:20]

which is also really important to think about. If I didn't say this, what do I think or fear might happen? How, going forward, will you orient yourself toward this person? Is it someone you're close to? Is it someone you have to work with? Someone you're in relationship with? So how will you be with this if you don't say anything? But if you do decide to raise the issue, They suggest three purposes that can really support you to adopt a learning stance of being curious, open-minded, open-hearted, and willing to engage. More and more as I was making my own notes, I put in Dharma notes. It's like seeing that they have Buddha nature too. It's like, okay, we're all trying here. So the three purposes are learning their story and being curious about what information do they have that we don't.

[05:31]

What past experience led them to see and feel this way? Another one is expressing your views and feelings, whatever you want to share from reflecting on the first two conversations that is appropriate given your respective roles. Like... What of your own stuff do you really want to share? And problem solving together. How are we going to do this? What are we going to do going forward? So the summary that I made offers a number of concrete suggestions to get the conversation started. And if you are interested in getting the book, it has lots of actual examples and stories, which is helpful to see it kind of fleshed out. So if you decide to have a conversation, you will need to start the conversation. You'll need to invite the person to talk. And being settled and clear will support you and the other person.

[06:32]

When you meet... Since you initiated the conversation, you can be the one to start. And if you think like a mediator, someone who's there for both parties, who's trying to be fair and equal and hold space equally, you can express concern for both sides and you can describe the third story. They have their story, you have your story. The third story encompasses both. The third story isn't a compromise or kind of a mash-up of them, but it's what you can both agree on. And sometimes that is just that we see things really differently about X and...

[07:38]

That's where we start, is we just see things really differently. And I'd like to share that with you, share how I see it with you, and hear how you see it, and are you open to that? So that kind of sets a framework for what you're doing, and see if they're up for that. That can go a long way to having a structure. And you haven't gone first on that. It's good to have... the other person start by sharing their story and what they see. That can provide space. So that leads us into the realm of listening, which is really important in all conversations and all communication, and particularly in difficult conversations. How do we listen to someone who is saying ridiculous hurtful things that are not true? So, again, coming back to curiosity, which I think we've all worked hard to practice over the years in terms of all aspects, hopefully, of our own experience, but often the difficult ones.

[09:01]

Shifting from expert's mind to beginner's mind, not practicing, not knowing, and finding some genuine openness and curiosity about the person. Grounding in your body is also really helpful to find a way to be as relaxed as you can in your body, to just settle so that your body itself is giving you some cues. And having a structure... can be really helpful in that because you have some sense about where you're going. Active listening can be a really helpful way to listen when the other person's sharing their story, which is where you just repeat back kind of the heart of what you've heard from them periodically. Part of the power of that is that you both get to find out if you're understanding correctly.

[10:06]

When you say what you heard and they hear it, they can say, yes, that's right, or that's right up to here, but actually you got this part wrong and this is what it's like. It could also be that when they hear you say exactly what they said out loud, they're like, you know, when you say that out loud, I realize that's not exactly true. I mean, I think people do that in therapy a lot. You know, you say it out loud, and it's like, well, when I hear myself say it, that's not quite right. So it gives you a chance to come to some understanding together, even as you're just listening. Sometimes in the, well, there was a time when I was really practicing doing active listening, which in that context we called looping. And three of us got together every week for well over a year to practice this. Because we were all at City Center at the time.

[11:09]

And we were all friendly. And we got to be really intimate over that time. So we had an hour. We'd each take 20 minutes. One person was the speaker. One person was the listener. And one person observed and gave feedback. So... That was hard, and that was also incredibly helpful. At that time, I was already a therapist, so I was feeling very self-conscious like I should be able to do this very well, which really got in the way. It was like I was actually listening. I could perform listening, but it wasn't quite listening when we started doing this because there's an observer there, right, and there's some expectation, I felt. And the thing that helped me the most was was to kind of quiet my efforting by just repeating silently to myself the exact words that the person was saying as they were saying them.

[12:12]

So I later thought, this is like doing simultaneous translation, but all in English, just to follow along. And I found that when I did that... because I couldn't hold on to anything. I couldn't say, okay, I should remember this or whatever. I was present enough that I was letting it come into me, and I was experiencing their words. I wasn't trying to remember them. I was feeling them. And when I did that... I was present and could reflect back to them what they said in a much more effective way, in a less kind of Carl Rogers way, just repeating back what you heard. Exactly. I will say that for some people, just repeating back the exact words is very supportive and very helpful, especially people who...

[13:21]

for whatever reason, race and gender are often two of the reasons, two of the main reasons, but it could be any reason that people often feel like their words are not heard correctly at all. Like you said this, I heard you say that. So you'll have to see what seems to be effective. Yes, Jeff. Pardon me for cutting across what you're saying. One of the things that comes up for me as you're talking your way through this is a couple of things. I have my own examples of what you're talking about as you talk your way through, and you have your own examples. And in all of these cases, there's an emotional context between two people that has to be taken into account. Active listening isn't taking notes and transcription. It's hearing the emotion and hearing the person and seeing the person and the nature of that, and sometimes stepping right past their words into a need that's being expressed more fundamentally.

[14:27]

There's the intimacy of the situation. I have a colleague that I've known for years, and we've started working more closely together in a second company. And all of a sudden, he started going after me about stupid stuff. And so I went to another colleague of ours at another organization. I said, why didn't you tell me? He was mentally ill. And the guy started laughing. And he said, can you handle it? I said, well, of course. I'll just beat him with my shoe. But the issue was is I didn't have to say anything. I could reinforce a correct dynamic. I could reinforce the trust that I wanted us to share without having to employ various kinds of constructs. And I'm not speaking against what you said. It's my own example. The thing that I'm trying to get at is that the thing you said that I like so much is not everything has to be talked about. Not everything has to be dragged out into the open. We can reinforce the things that we value together without having to parse all the intervening information because sometimes what we're looking for isn't in there. The content is somewhere else.

[15:29]

And so how do I listen intimately to what you're saying to me and responding to that with an attitude of service? with an attitude of being willing to give up my position and move closer to you just for the sake of peace or being willing to do things differently regardless of how I feel about what you're saying and then coming back around and reinforcing some interesting behaviors. I hope I said that clearly. I'm not sure I did. Yeah. You're basically choosing not... You're talking about a way of being with the person if you're choosing not to have that conversation. which is great. I think we all have ways of negotiating that. This is just offering some various ways to practice to have an appropriate response. And the appropriate response could be a lot of things. I like the way you speak about active listening. It's coaching.

[16:31]

And in some cases, that can be really helpful. And I found it really helpful. And I found it also helps to slow the other person down or get them out of their head a little bit. If they're just kind of running with something, to say, could I just share with you what I'm hearing right now? And it kind of shifts the dynamic. So these are just tools or practices to play with. Because sometimes when we get in a situation where there could be a difficult conversation, or we're having them in our head. We get stuck in one groove, and it's hard to see outside of that in a lot of different ways. And it was helpful to me to have some alternatives because my family, we didn't really have conversations. So I didn't learn it there, and I didn't learn it at school.

[17:36]

the skills I've learned because I wanted to learn them have stood me in really good stead. So it's something that I have to share, but there are many ways to do it, or something I like to share at least. Thanks. And please, whenever someone has a question, could you just be back on gallery view? Anytime someone has a question, please just raise your hand and let me know. Hannah and Jim. What comes up for me is the training I kind of had in nonviolent communication. Here comes the mic. The training that I kind of had in nonviolent communication, which was under duress and felt like a very hostile and difficult environment. And this is so kind and helpful.

[18:40]

Am I the only one who sees the difference between these two methods this way? Or what's your experience with NBC? I have had some experiences with nonviolent communication with people who have studied it deeply and got very attached to certain forms. Somebody who once said, you're not celebrating me right. But I don't think this is a problem with nonviolent communication. I also co-led a workshop with someone who's one of the foremost, or longest time at least, trainers in the country of nonviolent communication. And he was not rigid at all. He didn't hold to certain forms. It was in his body. But it's like people, when they're... Maybe first teaching zazen instruction, it's like, no, you have to be exactly like this. No, it's not here, it's here. So that was probably the issue.

[19:45]

That's what I would guess. I mean, it's called nonviolent communication. It's not supposed to be violent. But if we're feeling violent, we can use pretty much anything to hand. Okay, that sounds that way. And Jim? I had a conversation today that was a little difficult. You hold it this way. This way? Yeah. Can you hear me? Great. I'd like to share the conversation because I don't think my question will make sense otherwise. I help manage a condo that I'm an owner of in Ohio, and I'm not there all the time. And we had a security issue today where our property manager, who is known to be a little bit of a ditz, let's say, and not a favorite among the owners there, left the building unsecured. He left a locked room unsecured and inside it a locked key locker, exposing all the keys to all the units in the building to whomever might wander into the garage.

[20:51]

And I received a call from a very angry homeowner who I will call busybody number two because they're always calling me about things Picayune and grave. She took it upon herself to tell all the owners that they could come and fetch their keys and take them away. Now, I was very thankful that she interceded and secured the building. I was very unhappy as president of the board that she took it upon herself to take a board action and return the keys to owners. My question is about how do you communicate both listening when you have a job to fulfill and there's a structural power imbalance. I think we had a successful communication, but it might have been a little easier, I think, than it was. And so that's my question. Could you say very briefly what the conversation was?

[21:58]

Can you hear me? The conversation was, thank you for securing the building. However, you are not empowered by the board to return keys to the property of the board to owners without a board action, and so you have stepped out of line. That was my point of view, and her point of view was it was my moral responsibility. And so while I understood where she was coming from... wanting to secure the building and do the right thing, I think that beneath it all, we were having a power struggle over who was responsible for different things. And so it ended okay, but it's been an ongoing thing. And so when you're listening to someone and yet trying to convey that there is a power structure here, I do have authority that you don't have, how... How do you recommend that we tread lightly so that people are heard and yet we accomplish what we need to do because of whatever position we hold?

[23:04]

That's a great question. I think it sounds like you did hold both of those things, and that doesn't mean that it will be a comfortable conversation for either one of you. You established that it is your responsibility, it's the board's responsibility to make those decisions and not hers. And you appreciate that she took responsibility for securing the building. And you understand that she, I don't know if you included, I really hear that you felt that you had a moral responsibility for this. And I hear that and I understand that. And it is my responsibility and not yours to do that. So we have a difference. in how we see this. But at the end of the day, because of my role and because of the way this unit is structured, this is what's happening.

[24:05]

Great, thank you. Okay. So I wanted to say, before we go into small groups, a few things about speaking up more broadly. While it's not always what you want to do, as Jeff was pointing out, some people find it just really challenging, at least under certain circumstances. So these are some encouraging words about speaking up. If you're going to speak up, it really helps everyone involved if you're fully committed and present as you can be. If you're not hesitant or kind of hedging your words or being indirect about things, but you're really forthright in what you want to say, that you're settled in your communication, that you want to give.

[25:21]

You're clear. You're settled. It often takes preparation to do this well, just like anything. And the conversations that I found most difficult, that I prepared the most for, went the best, for sure. I really thought it out. I thought out what I wanted to say. I have actually carried quarter sheets of paper into a difficult conversation that had notes so I didn't forget the sequence that I wanted to do things in. Jeff. I have found that sometimes I find myself in a situation where I do that, and by doing that, I kind of create a power melt if the other person isn't prepared to have the conversation in that same level of detail. Can you speak to that? Yes. Well, if you're having a difficult conversation, you're usually just saying, I'd like to have a conversation with you about X. Here's the structure I'd like to have, and what's your side of it?

[26:26]

So you're inviting them to speak first. And you may be helping by saying, I hear this, but I don't understand this. Could you help me understand that further? Then you're also helping them unpack the story. It can create a power imbalance, but I think if you're aware of that and you don't use it against them, but you use it in service of... having greater clarity, understanding, problem-solving together. I think if you're sensitive to that, then it can... We're always going to have unintended up-power, down-power stuff. So... Yeah, so what I wrote was when you... When you speak, it's important to express yourself with clarity and a sense of your own empowerment, that you feel that you're entitled to say something.

[27:34]

It's okay. And I fully trust that all of you here believe that everyone deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. We don't always treat ourselves that way. We don't always give ourselves the things that we... are very good about giving others or that we really try to give others. So, you know, it's like batta practice. Give it to yourself as well. Maybe start with yourself. The conversation is really supported when both sides are all in and fully present. and the more you're fully present, the more you can actually support the other person to be as well. If you're really uncomfortable still, it can make it feel like whatever it is is so bad that they can't even talk to me about it.

[28:36]

The more at ease you are with a topic, the more that your ease communicates itself to the other. I'm looking at hacks at this moment because I'm thinking about your guidelines that you give people for when they come to see you to get a tattoo, which is about establishing a container that welcomes conversation and feedback and really wanting to hear from the person. And I found that very powerful to read. You know, and a lot of places, like the board had some communication agreements that we went over at our retreat, in January, which are great. I was really impressed by this, and they included, please speak up. We invest trust in each other by saying what we really think rather than just letting things go by in a meeting and kind of being like, okay, I guess everyone else is on board, so I won't say anything because we don't know what people are.

[29:39]

This happens in organizations so often that there are whole books written about it. Many of them. And it takes courage. It really does. Often. On the other hand, well, I'll get to the other part. Let's see. So none of this, like, we're talking about difficult conversations, not the conversations that are easy for you. The ones that specifically are hard. So it's not easy. And I really resonate with the Satipatthana Sutra, the directions for how to approach each of the practices, which is internally, focused first on your own internal experience, and then externally on the other person, and then both together. Yeah, that is graded in terms of difficulty. You know, like I can sit...

[30:42]

with my own stuff more easily, that I can sit with other people, especially when it impacts me. And to do that in dialogue, in motion, in the moment, is yet another level. Just thinking about all the metaphors for that, like the Buddha talking about the acrobats, it's like, oh... Oh Lord, I think these acrobats who take care of each other, I truly think this is how we should practice with each other. I take care of you and you take care of me and then we're both safe and we're all well. The Buddha said, not so, not so. If you take care of yourself and the other person takes care of themself, then we'll all be safe together. And you could see it so easily with acrobats. Because if I'm just focused on you and are you okay, I'm not paying attention to where my body is. If I'm fully grounded, then I can be there also for another person because I'm settled first.

[31:51]

I learned this very dramatically when I was learning how to do junior life-saving when I was 11 or 12 years old. And they really emphasized the first thing is you be sure you're safe. If you're on a dock and the person's in the water, don't get off the dock, you know, unless it's like you're big and this is a little kid or something like that. But if you're about the same size, be very careful because people who are drowning are panicking and they will try to climb on top of you. Some of you are nodding your heads like you know this. So you will have to do whatever you can to get the person to calm down enough to allow themselves to be saved. And that went against all my family training, which is take care of other people. So it was very shocking to me. And it really stuck with me. Hex. I think a little related to that point you bring up.

[33:00]

I'm curious about sort of like post-difficult conversation after care. In the last month or two, I had a pretty challenging conversation that went well and ended. The outcome was good and what I had hoped and the other person's feedback was that it went well. But I just noticed in the weeks that followed it, there was a lot like because it was so much and touched a lot of deep stuff that I really wasn't great. Like, it was really interesting. And so I'm curious. I don't think this book goes there. And I'm just curious if you have any thoughts on this or, yeah, I don't know. Any thoughts? My immediate thought is, yeah, I'm so sorry to hear that.

[34:04]

That's really hard. like to work hard at having a conversation, it goes well and then there's this tale of residue. A friend used to call it the residue of bother. And that's real too. So however, I would say however you're noticing that kind of thing shows up for you, to take care of it at that level. I mean, I think those things are like deep and old and in the body. So we can't make them change or go away, but we can create the supportive conditions that can allow it to subside. Probably a lot of kindness, self-kindness, nervous system regulation. If it helps to talk to other people, to share it, you know, just whatever you find supportive. It's like grief. You can't tell these things how to come. And there may be lots of...

[35:05]

Feelings you weren't expecting in there that come up that maybe touch on some old stuff that you didn't want to particularly bring up again. Does any of that? Yeah, thank you. My immediate conclusion was, well, I certainly won't schedule another difficult conversation tomorrow. Modeling great self-care there. Linda. Yeah, so sometimes, maybe more often than you might think, good. But anyway, I want to say that's wrong. You know, that just happened this afternoon in a reading group, a Zen reading group of people who know each other well, reading together and discussing on Zoom.

[36:10]

And... somebody was being so, so non-judgmental about every little thing, you know? I just sometimes want to say, excuse me, that's wrong. Could we just say that's wrong? I did that with Reb on some statements in the Lotus Sutra, you know, as we were going here and there on interpretation. Could you just say that's wrong? And... Of course, he wouldn't. But we're so, so committed to non-duality that we don't want to say anything's right and wrong. Sometimes I really do. Yeah. And right and wrong is contextual. Yeah, it's about people. It's about harm being done.

[37:13]

So if you're defining what is right and wrong, right is what is non-harming and wrong is what is harmful, then that can absolutely be said and needs to be said. That doesn't mean that everyone's going to say it, but it's possible you can point out the impact, the consequences of not speaking to things, of having... vague speech or kind of suggesting or whatever it is. Endless complicating. Sorry, I should stop while you're approving of me, but... Is the microphone on? I'll still go ahead and quote Woody Guthrie, any damn fool can be complicated. Something that kind of cuts through. It's true. It's very true. It's not easy to be clear for a lot of reasons.

[38:18]

And what might feel very clear to us may feel simply wrong to someone else for a lot of reasons. Getting to clarity, having good communications is hard work. And not everyone is up for it all the time. So how do we meet that as well as we can? And I don't have answers for that, except I think it's an ongoing practice. So I'd like to share something from Audre Lorde from The Transformation of Silence into Language and Action, which was originally given as a speech at the Modern Language Association And these are some excerpts. I was going to die, if not sooner than later, whether or not I had ever spoken myself.

[39:21]

My silences had not protected me. Your silence will not protect you. What are the words you do not have yet? What do you need to say? What are the tyrannies you swallow day by day and attempt to make your own until you will sicken and die of them still in silence? We have been socialized to respect fear more than our own need for language. And of course, I am afraid. You can hear it in my voice. Because the transformation of silence into language and action is an act of self-revelation. and that always seems fraught with danger. We can learn to work and speak when we are afraid in the same way we have learned to work and speak when we are tired. For we have been socialized to respect fear more than our own needs for language and definition.

[40:27]

And while we wait in silence for that final luxury of fearlessness, the weight of that silence will choke us. The fact that we are here and that I speak these words is an attempt to break that silence and bridge some of those differences between us. For it is not differences which immobilize us, but silence. And there are so many silences to be broken. So, as I said, one of my intentions is to encourage you. to speak up when it's appropriate. Because not saying something can allow things to fester. And it can fester just inside you, but it often festers in relationships or in groups or organizations. And the silence can cause a lot of damage as well as the speech.

[41:34]

And I've also been thinking more and more in recent months about speech that is not just one-to-one or in a small group, but speech that's more public, that's out in the public square in some way or another, when it's not a conversation in the way that we usually think of, which is in real time with a finite number of people all present together, whether online or in person. but making a statement which will have its impacts, which we cannot know in advance. So also in that same speech, Audre Lorde said, I began to ask each time, what's the worst that could happen to me if I tell this truth? Unlike women in other countries... Our breaking silence is unlikely to have us jailed, disappeared, or run off the road at night.

[42:38]

Our speaking out will irritate some people, get us called bitchy or hypersensitive, and disrupt some dinner parties. And then our speaking out will permit other women to speak until laws are changed and lives are saved and the world is altered forever. Next time, ask, what's the worst that will happen? then push yourself a little further than you dare. Once you start to speak, people will yell at you. They will interrupt you, put you down and suggest it's personal. And the world won't end. So Audre Lorde wrote that in 1977. Audre Lorde. And, of course, it's no longer just other countries. So... breaking silence can have very real consequences. But I think the question itself, what's the worst that could happen to me if I tell this truth, is a question worth asking and considering what you're up for, what you're actually up for, and trying to be as realistic about that as you can, both with the fear and with the reality of the situation.

[43:57]

All of this is a choice. It's a choice to speak. It's a choice to stay silent. And it's yours to make. So it's time to go into some breakout groups. And again, online, well, everywhere here, we'll do groups of three or four. And let's see. I didn't get that into my notes. So there's two parts to this. What have you learned or what's most alive for you from this class that you might want to continue exploring or practicing with? In other words, looking back, what's alive? What do you want to take forward? And what might that look like to take that forward?

[45:02]

Is there a particular conversation you want to work toward having? Do you want to practice active listening with some friends? You know, what could that look like? What are you interested in? If you are. If you are. It might be just, you know, I'm actually not. And the other part of it is, can you imagine any ways that the other people who've been taking this class with you might be of support to you or you might be of support to them? Because I've gathered that many people have really enjoyed the breakout groups. That they've been actually some intimate and supportive conversations. Which was what prompted the question. And also my own experience talking to people. You know? Just doing that. Any questions about the topics? Broad, simple conversation openers. What's alive? What's meaningful? how to take it forward.

[46:03]

Okay. We have just a few minutes left, about seven minutes left before we end. Anything you'd like to share? Jeff. Or ask. How I really want to get closer to how I behave in these situations. So it's taken me closer to my own beliefs. So it's taken you in, like, how do you manifest right speech in your difficult conversations? Yeah. Great. Linda, some hands-on line. Margaret and then Peter. Thank you. I just so enjoyed being in the breakout room and listening and then being able to share a little bit and just feel the love, deep respect I have for the people in my group.

[47:26]

Great. Wonderful. Great, thank you. Peter. I just want to say how I feel that, I feel inspired by the presentation, the conversation, the imagined conversations that could happen as difficult as they might be. It just seems like now's the time, given our history and everything. Thank you. Anyone else? If not, we can end a few minutes early. Kristen. Kristen. I can't hear. Doesn't look like you're muted. Still can't hear.

[48:32]

Can you write it in the chat? Something that hasn't come up is how we resource ourselves for these conversations. Any suggestions? I found things related to the body are very helpful. My... personal absolute go-to is walking, just longish rhythmic walks and settling into my pelvis and core area and down into my feet. That just, the steady movement is very regulating to me. But I think we all have our places that we go that are grounding and supportive. and just to remember how to come back to that place and practice that.

[49:36]

So physically, that's what I would suggest, to have body and nervous system be well-resourced. Getting enough sleep is essential. All the good normal things, eating well, sleeping well, exercising. And I think resourced in terms of... who you might talk to about these things, to surface them and share them so that they're not secret or hidden or, you know, before you have the actual conversation, to talk it through with someone. For many people, journaling is really helpful. I found it very helpful to see my own thoughts on the page and be able to come back to it later and Just like when you say it to someone and you read your own words, it's like either that it could be, that's really so, I really feel that, or not so much, that's not quite it.

[50:42]

I think there could be a lot of ways. We can talk about it sometime when I can hear you better. I just wanted to say that I really enjoy having conversations with people about difficult conversations. So I welcome any of you to talk to me about that. You might think, well, why would I talk in like... even practice discussion, dokasan, about this, because I see it as practice. I see it as very deep practice. And I did this a lot when I was at Tassajara. There was one person who'd come in and he's like, okay, coach, I need a few words before I go in there. I'm like, have a seat, let's go.

[51:48]

So, yeah. That's what I wanted to say. What did you want to say, Ellen? I wanted to thank you for offering this class and the clarity and sort of putting it together for us. But I also wanted to thank Jeff for doing the tech, which was way beyond me. And he was very diligent about it. And also Karen Sondheim and Gensan for doing the online tech. Thank you. Thank you for making the class happen as class coordinator, Ellen. Thank you to Karen and Gensan for doing the online thing, and thank you for reminding me of that. Linda, can I point something out? Sandeep just put something in the chat mentioning that the HEAR committee is also available to assist in communications around issues that come up at BCC. That's great. That's really important information. Because if you have an issue with particularly me or Greg, you might think I don't want to talk about Greg if you have an issue with him, for example, or to hear it.

[53:02]

It might be too delicate to hear if it's about me. Please talk to the HEAR committee. Yeah, there are resources. And part of having the HEAR committee is to know that there are places that you can go and that it's welcome. It's not always easy to hear something going on, so be aware that if you bring something forward, like I've practiced this a fair amount, but I still may not always be completely warm and welcoming in the moment, because it might be hard, but give it some chance to work, even if the initial thing is like, really, is this okay? Yes, it is okay. I'm happy to know about stuff. The more we can trust and share with each other, really the better things have a chance to work. And the closer we get to each other, the more we build genuine trust.

[54:06]

Okay. Beings are numberless. I vow to awaken with them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. Good night. Thank you. Thank you so much for your participation. Good night. Thank you. Good night. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all. It was wonderful.

[54:56]

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