and serve God. such a sort of cool, cool summer. And this is my third talk from the front seat, as you sell. And as you know, it's, as many of you know, who've been following along, this has been Case 86 from the Blue Cliff Record.

[01:05]

It's titled The Kitchen Pantry and the Main Gate. And he asks, he says, everybody has a light. Do you see your light? So just to get this out of the way, because I really want to do it, let's sing this little light of mine and then we'll go on to the talk. Help me out. Maybe I should turn the mic, the head mic off to do it. Oh, God. Okay, so we'll just sing it. Twice. This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine. This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine. This little light

[02:15]

Thank you for giving me help again. We didn't have much time for questions and comments at the last talk. And I wonder if our Dawn, dear Gary, if you would leave, tell me firmly when 20 minutes is left. Okay. So, if you do remember a question from last time, or the tease, or anything we've done, You know, maybe, nah, save that for the... I don't know how much time we'll have. Yeah, we'll do it, sure. Last talk I took to read the whole case. And I will not do that. I will just read the core case. Yin Min imparted some words saying, everyone has a light. When you look at it, You don't see it.

[03:39]

What is everybody's light? He himself answered, on their behalf, the kitchen pantry and the main gate. He also said, a good thing isn't as good as nothing. And I think a different translation by Shaw. And I have three pages I copied out that I didn't bring. But what my understanding of that is, we need to express our light. What Yunmin may be referring to is that we need to express that light that we don't see. How do we do it? ...pantry and main gate, in our work, I think, in our family practice, the people we deal with. That's why we make the light real. Sometimes we see it, sometimes we don't. We don't know the impact we have on it. So, once it gets in the way of seeing the light, I've come to see it.

[04:46]

It may be, one of the things may be a fixed idea of a self, or a permanent belief in a permanent self. ... in the last class referred to buttons that he occasionally wears, And that say, one, I'm not who you think I am. The other, I'm not who I think I am. That's a good one. Back in 10th century China, Yunmin said, we have to investigate the light ourselves for ourselves. In other talks Yunmin, perhaps to unhook his disciples from the right way to be a Chan or Zen student, you know, reciting some more formal practice, he said that all he does, Yunmin said, all he does is eat and shit.

[05:48]

And he asked, why are you still here? Nobody else. So I thought, since this case is my assignment, which I've learned a lot from, and I'm very grateful that Hosanna signed it. Sometimes not. You know how you wrestle with something and then you try and give up, but it's still wrestling with you? Okay, like that. So we might open up some understanding, and I hope this is relevant to each of you as possible. Look for yourself. Damn it. Yin-men imparted some words saying, everyone has a light.

[06:51]

When you look at it, you don't see it, and it's dark and dim. What is everybody's light? He himself answered on their behalf. And you can fill in with me. And the main gate, He also said, a good thing is not as good as nothing. So I was thinking about how wonderful the teas and the practice period dinner and the work period is in the six weeks. you know, the connections, because there's a certain amount of socializing, like at the practice prayer dinner and the teas, where we got to know each other, you know, find out about each other and hear each other. And we tell each other as a way to get to know people, what do you do? What's your family? Where do you live? Are you in school?

[07:52]

What are your interests, aspirations? talent. And all that happened, certainly Saturday, and created wonderful connections. So I started digging down into what, just, you know, looking at the light. Where's the light? In who I am. But what I started to see was the places I'm fixed of who I think I am. And sometimes, you know, I wonder what people think of me. And is it true? And if it isn't, I mean, like, you have to... yourself, do you know what I mean? And then suddenly there's no connection and no light. I get angry that people think they know me, they've labeled me, and they dismiss me.

[08:53]

I think we want to be known. to be known is not fixed. It's not permanent. And yet, I just feel so much of life is about trying to present an idea that just may be moaning, even hardened over life. Do you know? And I think I spend a lot of time dancing around other people, and they dance around me, so we don't offend that fixed view. And I don't know if that makes sense, but... Well... You know, I'm not smart. I can't do this. And then clinging to it, or very strongly saying, I'm this kind of person. Well, maybe those are the tendencies, but can we like labels?

[10:01]

I find my beliefs in this aging thing, this aging gig solidifying, you know, health problems and fears, and who I am is that, the fears, and probably I've had that all my life in the various things I've experienced. But I also have a reputation, people see me, my act is, I can be entertained occasionally and spontaneous and I enjoy that. And occasionally I feel I have some wisdom that is like everybody, we all settle down, or my friends are parts of music. There's like a moment of them talking to each other and, you know, speaking or just silence. I've spent time with people, as I said, telling me with great energy who they are and how hard it is to have other people understand them.

[11:12]

And I think, having been married to Gordon for so long, I don't think we'll ever understand anybody else, really, or ever be understood. We can't. Everything's changing, for one thing. And that desire to be understood is something else, I think. We can't see others as they see themselves, really. I don't think. I don't know. I try. I just didn't like it. I wanted to fix that view. I'll just go back to something here about a fixed view. I was 15 and forgot the confirmation speech that the rabbi at Temple Sinai in Berkeley gave me. I forgot it probably four times. I didn't write the speech, I didn't understand it, and I was pissed that he gave it to me.

[12:19]

And so he was annoyed. I got my first idea of seeing I had mixed motives in life. Like, oh, that forgetting may have been maybe deliberate. And then I took a view that may have just been... has not been helpful that I can't memorize. So carrying that over to this practice, you come in here, you're going to participate, And you get to memorize some things, learn some things, and you make mistakes. And there's a point where there's a flow in that service, or that chant, or that pitch, or that horioki serving. And it's bang on and we keep working for that. So the idea of perfect memorization is really and not helpful.

[13:21]

But it does limit one if you're afraid to step forward or take on a position. Do you see what I mean? That's an unnecessary, not helpful limitation. I have a lot of them. I probably all do. So we need categories, they're helpful. But, and they have a use. And Yin Min says, a good thing isn't as good as nothing. You're a good idea. Realization I had about how limiting our fixed views of ourselves are. You know, there's no opportunity in that. And sometimes I just, you know, I think the little part of me that was sort of whimpering away needed to sing this little song. It was like, no, I don't want to step forward and be seen.

[14:25]

And then there's a part that it's just... I'm not going to express that well, so I'll just... haven't thought it through. I want to... How much time do we have, Gary? Because I have stories and I get into them. We have 35 men. Oh, good. So, this is a story about a Buddha. I met a Buddha. Her name is Tran. Tran? Tran? I don't know. My hair every four to six weeks. But super cuts in Montclair. And she tries really hard to speak. be understood in another language, like English. And very important, you know, very... I've had a lot of other hair cutters there, they come and go, but I just hope she stays. So we discovered the first haircut six weeks ago that she's Buddhist, I'm Buddhist, you know.

[15:36]

So each time she... view of her life. First, she started off with, I don't have to have a husband. I don't need a husband. Wonderful. And I have no idea what went behind that, beyond that, but probably not. And she said, I'm okay without a husband. It was like, you know, this really magical English phrase she'd learned, you know, and she believed. I'm okay without a husband. Yeah. Great. So she told me about her mother having a stroke. And I was getting the picture real well. And she said, I take care of her. Basically, that's my purpose in life, to take care of my mother. So she told me that her mother has come back from the stroke and she can talk.

[16:39]

She had lost her son. What she said was, my mother talks back to me. And I, oh good, she can talk. I thought, you know, she has speech. But now I think, after the second, many times when you were saying this over and over, it means that her mother, she needs a husband and she's not sufficiently good daughter. So there's a little sense of that. And our communication is like this. And she said, I believe in Buddha. I have food. I have a place to live. I have a job. My life is enough. She wants people to know this about her.

[17:39]

And as I said, she repeats this. I have food. I have a job. I take care of my mother. It is enough. I don't need more. I told her, you know, I've been preparing this talk. And that's how she found out I was Buddhist, because she asked me what I was doing. It was on my mind. And I find that I talk to people, you know, in grocery store lines or in the hot tub at the health club. It's like you get Dharma talks. You really do. And so she said, most important, believe in Buddha and be kind. And there was a mom and her son waiting for a haircut.

[18:45]

And I got up from the chair and I bowed to her and went to pay and spoke to this family that were waiting. And I said, who knew you could get spiritual philosophy? And they laughed. So I'm looking forward to seeing her again, you know, and, um... And what got a great well, she said, if we don't see the light, be kind and keep your mouth shut. And I learned... How many teenagers do you learn that, I think? Maybe not kind, but keep your mouth shut. For harmony, more harmony and survival. But, you know, the love is there. And we could say, I thought, there's a sense of a fixed view of self.

[19:47]

Right? It's a concept. But boy, am I grateful for her. For that interaction. Whatever it is, you know. Whatever. We do that. and sometimes we go beyond them. My opinions certainly cause suffering in my life. I know I turned, my husband and I, Gordon and I had a really helpful tool to connect, which we learned. early, it doesn't mean that I wasn't entirely enraged by the man frequently, but, um, called, I think the Dyad School of Enlightenment, something like that, a diet intensive, and it was, it's basically a koan, tell me who you are.

[20:50]

And so, you're working with this fixed view for three days, and you actually, everything dissolves. Oh, who I thought I am. And I think that we have that, some of that, that we have that in our zazen. Who I am can soften and return to the light and the boundlessness. So, with Gordon, after a while, when I got pissed, because we'd had this practice, It was listening in silence. I keep my mouth shut. I learned not to react, to listen, at least with him. That was really hard learning. Five minutes I could listen. I could survive five minutes of listening to somebody. I hadn't been used to that before, because my opinion mattered.

[21:54]

I had to fix it, fix things. So we would do it. It would be rotating, listening and speaking, answering a question, actually. There were relationship questions, but there's also the tell me who you are. And it was a powerful process to have all those expectations soften and loosen with another person. And finally, over, you know, through our earlier years of marriage, before we both mellowed a bit, I said, I want a dyad, which is 40 minutes, it was 40 minutes, and he said, do a dyad. He said, tell me what you want. Tell me what you want. And I learned to get down to the bottom of it, you know, without the stirring around. I mean, some of us don't know what we think until we talk about it enough. And boom.

[22:59]

Oh. I want a hug. Total disappearance of whatever I was hanging on to. It was grace. It was pure grace. Anyway, I think we searched for those tools to open us to the light. I think I don't want to go on too much. I have some really good things to say, but that's enough. It's just preaching. Take a vacation from categories and labels. Take a breath. Be with yourself and others. Make a donation. That's what my sister does. Wants to feel better if she's in the midst of really hard times. She donates to her sin.

[23:59]

Help somebody. And take care of yourself. There's a little light of mine. Thank you. So I'm not... how we do this, so I'll ask for questions and comments now? Yeah. Okay. Whoops. All right, we'll start with Mary Duryea. Oh no, Joe is our mic carrier, bearer. Great. And those of you online, if you'd like to say something, you can raise your yellow hand or digital hand. whatever color it might be. So I'll call Nathan next after this.

[25:04]

All right, Mary, please, go. Thank you, Sue. I have always felt that you were an expert appreciator of other people. And I've been told from sources over the course of my life that the things that we appreciate in other people, the things that resonate with us, actually is a clue about our own light. I'm not wondering what you think of that. Ooh, I like that. Maybe so, I'm not sure we could see it in another person if we didn't have something to source it, you know? What do you think? Yeah. Thank you. Nathan? Yes.

[26:04]

Thank you. Hi, Sue. Thank you for your talk. It occurred to me while you were speaking, I had the light. Is it permanent? Does it change? It's not necessarily scene or physical physics quality of light or now that my vision is declining, if it's something that I could see, you know, like all of the spectrum. No, we don't see all of the spectrum. You know, if you could take pleasure in thinking of light in any way you want and using it. And officially, yeah, that's about all I got on that one. Do you have anything else on that? What do you think? I have no idea. I'm curious about if there's something that persists beyond our change.

[27:10]

But I don't have any idea. Well, that's a hard question because everything changes. So I don't know how to balance that everything changes, nothing's permanent, everything's interdependent. We don't even exist as a separate self, of course. Does light? I don't think so. Yeah, that way of talking about it that I'm not up on. Thank you. Shake. Thank you, Sue. I really liked what you said about having some tools to light. You know, I want a hug or I need a hug. And I thought, yeah. And then when you said, what's the saying? I thought that was bringing out the light, literally, figuratively.

[28:14]

But could you give some examples of some other tools, maybe? to bring out the light, see the light in others, which I think you do. I'd love to hear what you say. Well, I'm just going back to preschool, the play, the important, you know, in child development play, how is the work of children? And I think it is for adults. So, How do you bring out the light? What do you do, Jake? I try to not judge, just suspend any judgment I have in my mind about what

[29:17]

just hear them yeah that's that's been a hard one for me and i'm learning it still yeah yeah thank you let's see if there's anyone in the room yes i like this topic i think it's very interesting I think this topic is very interesting, and I wanted to ask you what you thought your life was at this present time. Changes, you're changing, but today, or these days, what's your life? I think that it's not personal. It's just always there. It's like grace. We put ourselves into a place where... I think this practice helps me open to it.

[30:36]

It's already there. And then how it expresses myself depends on my personality, how well I feel. you know, how much sleep sometimes I've got, if I'm going to be with people who are, that help, there's some people who just help you open up to life, I think, having friends and community that are safe, though I know people around the world in desperate poverty who open to the light, and I don't, and in desperate pain who open to the light, I don't, No, I can't speak to that. I just can't. Other people here can. I see. So you're not talking about anything personal or specific. You're talking about universal energy in general. Well, that's sort of woo-woo. I guess what I would say for me, it expresses itself basically.

[31:43]

or being amused, at least. You know, I forgot to bring it in, but I had in my folder a cartoon, you know, about the meaning of life and chocolate, which I can relate to. I thought, you know, damn, that's great. So, yeah, I mean, it's like to say, where is your life? I think Yun Min is giving his students, you know, putting pressure on him. Joel. Hi. Thank you, Sue. Hold on for the mic, Joel. Thank you. And thank you, Mira. Thank you, Sue. Beautiful. I wanted to play. That really struck me as so important.

[32:49]

And if I was asked, what is play? I would have a really hard time to answer that. What is play? You've seen lots of children playing. I guess I play piano. We use that word. Coffee. It is training in focus that interests you. You are single-minded in your play. That's one thing. That's one thing. In Montessori training you want to promote that. Provide activities where children focus. You know, you need attention. It's not a, I don't think, well, that's child development, but, you know, the way we distract ourselves with screens, I know that that's healthy play, maybe.

[33:57]

I don't know that I have a specific animal. It's just like, how do you respond? Like, I split play into my schedule. I have to schedule it. You know, it may not show up, but I'm going to put it in the schedule, like, exercise, a walk, bird walk, swimming, this crazy aqua fit class at the club, a health club, you know, and sometimes it's sort of misery, like, oh, I just don't like these people at all, but often there's a playfulness that can arise in there, and sometimes just sitting quietly on a bench talking to my neighbors. It's just pleasurable. Maybe play is not necessarily pleasurable, because people look really hard at it. Yeah, but I thought of it as something you do with others. Maybe so.

[34:59]

A single person, and that's true, a single person can play with peace. But still, it's been written by a composer. But it's much more fun to play with others. Not always. Sometimes there's an amazing focus. I'm going to do not always because, you know, you're working out a skill and you're totally involved. It may be calligraphy, right? That scroll, you have to do that alone, right? I don't know if that was a play, but it was so beautiful. Rob's calligraphy. Oh, Rob, yes. Yeah, I don't know where the beginning is. Yeah, okay. Interesting question. Yeah, thank you. Good exploration, maybe. Yes, Nancy. How much time? I don't know.

[36:01]

Fifteen minutes. Great. Thank you. I'll see. Hi, Nancy. First, I want to say that I experience your light from way back here. I feel it. It feels like it fills the room. And I'm wondering, I started to think about light as more like the essence of someone, that even in death, it can't even be extinguished. There's something that remains. And I'm wondering what you think about that. Boy, those kind of questions, I don't know. Is this working? I am holding onto a fixed view that nothing exists. and that my connection are memories, my memories, and the objects from that person.

[37:17]

Maybe they're . I don't know other than that. Because I was thinking, when you were talking about Gordon, there's still that spark there, there's something about the connection that we have with others that... It's not permanent in the sense that there's, again, this fixed idea, perhaps, of someone, but that there's something that seems to... I'm not expressing this well, but there's something that is beyond all of that, beyond those memories, perhaps. So Nancy, for those online, is saying that there's something beyond those memories. And I... Maybe so, you know, maybe so. I feel something when you talk about it. And I think that it doesn't actually because it's too painful for some reason to think about what essence there might be from my parents, you know.

[38:36]

I don't know. Yeah, I can't, I don't know, maybe so. Let me go to, Nancy, is there anything else before I go to Karen? Thank you. Karen, please. When we were talking about play, at first, even think of how I play. But then I realized that my favorite form of play is mahjong. I guess I'll have to learn it again. That's great. Well, you're a mahjong. I haven't played for years. Well, if you remember correctly, about a week or two after Gordon died, I came up to your apartment with a couple of friends and wanted to learn mahjong and you taught her.

[39:44]

So it isn't that long ago. Maybe not. I hope I didn't cause harm. That's great. I do remember that. Yeah, it was fun. Does that play? I think so, and I think a lot of play can become, you know how people go to casinos? And it's sort of grim. And they drink and smoke and lose a lot of money quickly. And it's play, you know, where you go on cruises and it's supposed to be play. And sometimes it is, and sort of grim efforts. We can spend a lot of money trying to play. But then you see a kid as a rock, and that rock is . So I don't know, you know. I think it's a cosmic topic, play.

[40:46]

Thank you. I want to get to Clay, and then I'll call on Judy. Hi, Sue. Hi. I had this question I was curious about. It's sort of like these two ideas and it's about language. We talked about shining our light. We sang a song about this little light of mine. I'm going to let it shine. Great. I love that song. And then I just wondered about receiving the light. There's another notion about being receptive and open. And I just wondered if... if you had anything to say or wondered about the relationship between those two. What I'll say is there's no guarantees, Clay. No guarantees. Okay.

[41:52]

Thank you. This is a total bitch. I've been up since 1.30. This is not last night, but other nights. Trying to... And it's like, I don't want to read this con one more time because I'll scream. But there's a play in that, you know. In bitching, you know, I've had talks about the power of bitching. Being receptive. For me, it's like, I know, there's no guarantees. That's really the truth. Well, I find sometimes where I'm most exhausted is when I become most receptive. Really? Thank you. May you have it, find it more easily. Thank you.

[42:54]

Judy, please. And then Susan, and then Rondi and Charlie. When you were talking about hugging, I was reminded of a practice in the Plum Village tradition of something called hugging meditation, which he introduced in a context, you know, a lot of trauma-rooted experience of participants trying to find, quote, a safe way in sangha to have touch, to wrestle with in our sanghas. So the practice would be that when you embrace, both people are practicing, and you stay in an embrace for three full breaths. And what

[43:59]

important about that is that there's a form. We've been talking about forms, and light takes different forms as we express it, right? So I'm thinking about form and play when we're dealing with tough stuff. like heartbreak. You know, really difficult physical, emotional pain. I noticed in myself that sometimes it's not so easy to distinguish what's play and what's avoidance, entertainment. And so I'm wondering, the relationship of form and light and play, particularly when working with difficult.

[45:09]

Thank you, Trudy. I have to say that I am a fan of distraction. I don't have any problem when you can't face something right then and you go find something else to do that you enjoy. I think the solutions take time. And I wish... Deep, painful trauma. I don't know what to say, Judy. something fancy like this word trauma that can sound like only some of us through horrendous circumstances.

[46:12]

It's kind of all grief. So you're asking what is helpful to do when you feel grief? How do you... Is that the question? No, I think it's a little more nuanced than that because what I'm really wondering about is we've talked about light, play, And we have forms. So how do those particularly interplay? Yeah. So the forms of light and form and light and play and the zendo forms or the practice, your priest, the priest practice, and grief, how do you... It gives you something to do. In the body, play. the forms here can be a place to put your attention instead of ruminating that's maybe sometimes a yoga class experience stretching and relaxation is it's wonderful yeah so

[47:28]

Thank you for your question. Lots to go. We're out of time. I thought you did three minutes. So we have to, oh, because I thought I saw something else. I can't see you. Colin, Rondi and Charlie, please. Good morning, Sue. If ever you write a book, I think it should be titled The Power of Quick Bitching and How to Do It. Power of bitching and how to do it. Well, I thought it was, my title was Bitching My Way to Enlightenment. Much better. But that's the same idea I had, I think. Yeah, I think, I think. Yours is infinitely more common. Susan, I'm very sorry. It's all right. I forgot. It's okay. Go ahead.

[48:31]

I was wondering, as you've been studying this koan over the last few weeks, if you have come to some understanding, is there a relationship between the light and this sentence you've continued to read us that's so amusing, a good thing is not as good as nothing. So is there a relationship between the light And that? Yeah. I think that the light can be expressed in our daily life. And we have all sorts of ideas about this doesn't feel good, here's the light, here's not the light. And we worry about it. Am I doing light right? So it's sort of a relief.

[49:34]

A good thing isn't as good as nothing, like boundlessness. But how about when it is? How about when a good thing is as good as or better than nothing? Would you go a little deeper and say something about that? I would cherish those opportunities and appreciate them and share about them. They won't last. And those experiences, I think, provided me with strength. When I look back, you know, those moments. So I'm not... I'm still here. I'm alive. I think because of those solid experiences of great joy, Maybe great grief, too.

[50:35]

I am feeling like I'm... Susan, ask that question again, please. Oh, I've already forgotten it, but... It sounds like you're saying that the light is always present regardless of where the mind moves around it. We don't see it. This is not light we see necessarily. It's always there. Ah, there's this. Yeah, I thought I saw you holding that earlier. Thank you, Susan, very much. And I appreciate your listening and being here. So thank you.

[51:23]

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