This is our third and final evening with the eight awakenings. So as usual, I'll stop for comments and sharing and questions. So I just wanted to say that, you know, at the end of his life, Dogeni moaned what he considered to be the neglect, he called it, of those around him to practice these awakenings. He felt that all of Buddha's disciples should study this teaching. And he called it the treasury of the truth or the heart of liberation from suffering. And he talked about the confusion in the world in which he lived and stressed the great opportunity, you know, to practice in this way. And he spoke. who didn't have the chance to see or hear about this teaching because they had few wholesome conditions in which to live and to practice.

[01:16]

So as we all feel fortunate to be able to practice together in this way. And I was thinking our world is not so different in its abundant confusion. And we're not so different from the ancestors. Dogen's message. Really alive in us and his encouragement to. Well, to expound the teachings, just as Buddha did. So moving on, there was a question I wanted to address from last week about the phrase maintaining right thought used synonymously with not neglecting mindfulness, you know, the fifth awakening. And I came across this short passage that I'd like to read to you from my Zumi Roshis, which I hope will kind of

[02:22]

help us with that. So it's short. He says the word translated thought consists of two parts. The top part means this very moment and the bottom part is mind, the mind of this very moment. Don't forget the mind of this very moment. Protect the mind of this very moment. Maintain the mind of this very moment. For example, coming to the Zendo, what kind of mind, what kind of thought do you have? Protect it, maintain it, and don't forget it. This is maintaining right thought. And then he says, I think Suzuki Roshi took the inspiration for the title of his book. There's mine from a passage of the Avatamsaka Sutra, quote, the very beginning mind itself is the most accomplished mind of true enlightenment or the very moment of raising beginner's mind is the accomplishment of itself.

[03:41]

And then he says, we also have a common saying in Japanese, do not forget the beginner's mind. When we really understand that beginner's mind is beginningless mind, then we just maintain and protect it. And when we become aware that beginning is beginningless, in other words, the beginning is also the end and the end is the beginning. Then without artificially trying to do anything, our life goes smoothly. That is not forgetting or maintaining right thought. I also came across something that Sojin Roshi, sorry, Suzuki Roshi said on the topic of mindfulness that kind of. He said that. We think with the whole mind, in other words, not to have one sided thinking, not making an effort to think in any particular way.

[04:51]

In Zazen, when we're just seeing and we're ready to to see things with the whole mind. And that's where there's space. And so he says, being prepared for thinking, then there's no need for any particular way of thinking. And he says this is mindfulness, maintaining right or complete or whole way of thinking. So I'm going to read you the eight awakenings. One, having few desires. Knowing how much is enough. Enjoying tranquility and serenity. Hurting diligent effort. Five, not neglecting mindfulness, maintaining right thinking. Practicing Samadhi or practicing the balanced state in Zazen.

[05:57]

Seven, cultivate. And eight, not indulging in idle chatter. So I decided to. approach uh awakening six and seven together because so much of the literature so much of what i studied put them together so um i'll read you those two awakenings and then we'll after my comments we'll stop at that point for what you want to add so the sixth awakening is to practice samadhi to abide in dharma with used is called stability in Zazen. If you gather your mind, it will abide in stability. Then you'll understand the birth and death of all things in the world. You'll continue to endeavor in practicing various aspects of Zazen. When you have your mind won't be scattered.

[07:02]

It's like a well-roofed house or a well-built embankment. which will help you maintain the water of understanding and keep you from being drowned. This is called stability in Samadhi. And the seventh awakening to be wisdom, to listen, contemplate, practice and have realization. If you have wisdom, you're free from greed. You'll always reflect on yourself and avoid mistakes. Thus, you'll attain liberation in the Dharma. If you don't have wisdom, you'll be neither a follower of the way nor a lay supporter of it. And there'll be no name to describe you. Indeed, wisdom is a reliable vessel to bring you across the ocean of old age, sickness and death. It's a bright lamp that brings light into the darkness of ignorance.

[08:05]

It's an excellent medicine for all of you who are sick. It's a sharp axe to cut down the tree of delusion. Thus, you can deepen awakening through the wisdom of listening. And practice. If you're illuminated by wisdom, even if you use your physical eyes, you'll have clear insight. This is called to cultivate wisdom. Susan, where did you read that? Reading from Tanahashi because it's the shortest one. There are lots of translations, but I didn't want to spend too much time reading. Thanks. So Samadhi or stability and Zazen, I don't know, I think it's nourished by serenity and tranquility. Create kind of like a home, you could say. for the mind to be settled and composed.

[09:08]

The literature describes like a gathering together, a harmonizing, a unifying. The mind is said to have collectedness, composure. When the body's tranquil, then it supports the mind becoming more still. Some describe brightness being present. The mind isn't distractible, won't wander. There's stillness inside space. That word space comes up a lot. Porous, open, no boundaries. It could be a feeling of the body disappearing or the legs or the feet. and mine. So it's said that when we stop thinking about something, you know, stop following the thinking thoughts, samadhi is the natural state that's present.

[10:19]

And it's the state of mind, but simply what's there? An expansive state or an expansive space. One phrase that's used is One pointedness. So many kind of like not wandering or not being distracted, but not reducing it to one single point. More like. A mind gathering around what's there. A meeting place kind of. So it doesn't mean that we can't also hear other sounds. Those sounds don't. make the mind lose its focus. So the mind is not so pointy that it can't think or hear sounds. And that kind of concentration includes like a base or a whole field of experience or something like a river flow of breath and thoughts.

[11:31]

and images. So an example that came to my mind was one time when we were in the Sierra. We saw a bird, a kingfisher, and it was flying very fast down a very narrow stream. Lots of rushing water. And it was as it edge of the stream, and as it swooped by close to the moving water, you know, it was very close to the water but didn't touch the water, didn't hit the water, that kind of concentration on where it was, where it was close it was to the water. But it had this obvious awareness of space way beyond. kind of all around in every direction. It never looked from side to side, but you just knew you could just see, you could just feel all that.

[12:37]

Oh, the space beyond. And our present didn't appear to change that concentration that the Kingfisher had. Katagiri Roshi says, unified, there's no gap between breath and us. And I think Sojin talked about that, too. There's just breathing. So Katagiri calls that the rhythm of life, and he calls that Samadhi. And he says that's right acceptance, accepting life as a whole. so that we just keep going we accept something but we're not using a dualistic viewpoint so whatever happens we just keep going forward just keep going in our life opinions and keep going and he says that when we practice zazen as samadhi then zazen is not just us

[13:50]

It's the rhythm of the whole universe. And when I came across that, it really made me think of Sojin Roshi always characterized that as. The world is doing Zazen. So that kind of feeling or connection. I came across a talk that Sojin Roshi gave 40 years ago on Samadhi and wisdom. And so I'd like to share. with you. He said that Samadhi is at the heart of wisdom and that wisdom is the foundation of Samadhi. So in other words, they go hand in hand like partners. And he described that essence or the heart of Samadhi as deep calmness. And he said it's imperturbable mind. You know, the mind that's not moved by circumstances.

[14:56]

So it's settled. In that fundamental mind that doesn't come or go. And he says, we don't acquire wisdom. It's built in. It's already there. And so he pointed out, and I think he told us this often, that that's where. They come from that place. And if we think that the precepts are rules from the outside, you know, that we're supposed to orient ourselves to, then our understanding isn't quite right. The precepts, he says, come from this essence or this heart. And they just spontaneously arise out of wisdom. So if we tap that essence of mind, that stability inside, the precepts just arise naturally.

[16:05]

And that wisdom that comes out of us informs our responses. So as opposed to, you know, some kind of analysis, the analytical mind or. at implementing formulaic ideas or responses. So he uses the same example that I just read you, the example of the lamp and its light. The lamp being samadhi, concentration, and the light being wisdom. and wisdom being the function of the lamp. So he says through Samadhi, wisdom arises, and then that's what guides us. So we should just allow that wisdom to come up, not to be thinking we're going to find wisdom or get wisdom, but just to be present to when it arises.

[17:17]

kind of before thought, I guess. Just let it spring up. So there's no thinking that leads us. Of course we think, but our thinking mind isn't attached to things, so the mind is free to come and go. Samadhi and wisdom. So this is the mind that's not attached to anything. It's just there. The wisdom bubbles up like maybe like a geyser. Always there. And Suzuki Roshi calls that the mind or the enlightened mind. Or he said his favorite is to say it's beginner's mind. It's open. It's ready for anything. And it's a mind that rests in reality, not what we think is reality, but what reality is.

[18:19]

And Sojin Roshi says that mind is always at the beginning. I thought that was interesting. This is the mind that's always at the beginning. It's always at rest. So then there are disturbances. I mean, those are natural. disturbances. And he says it's like when you throw a rock into clear water, still water. It creates ripples. But the disturbances on the surface, it doesn't run deep to the bottom. And so he says that's like the concentrated mind. That's like the samadhi mind. Even with disturbances, there's a lot of space there. in that open mind. So with practice, lots of practice, disturbances don't shake the whole mind, you know, the entire mind.

[19:27]

This really reminds me of the question that came up last week about practicing with noise in our BCC neighborhood and the power tools, especially during sashits, right? So Sojin Roshi says this is what we do in Zazen. We establish ourselves in this kind of mind, beginner's mind, repeatedly. And whether we're on the cushion or out in our life, we catch ourselves. So it's good to catch ourselves, right? And when we catch ourselves, there's mindfulness. That's a moment of mindfulness when we catch ourselves. We see what we've said or we see what we've thought and we catch that. And then we put it aside and we take care of the situation.

[20:29]

With all that space. In the settled mind, in the concentrated mind, wisdom arises. We see the situation. We're not neglecting mindfulness. We see what's happening and we see how to take care of it, but not with an analyzing mind. So he says when a disturbance happens, when a disturbance arises, we should be asking ourselves, what can I do to resume? What can I do to return to that imperturbable mind? And he calls that mind like grass. He says, you know, it's always able to move no matter what the air is doing around it, no matter what's happening. Reminded me of the first night of class when someone described feeling that there might be something better or a better way. than what they were doing at a given moment.

[21:33]

And then the person said they were aware that that was a distraction from what they were doing. And I think the person even said that. Describe this as being basic. I don't know if it's basic or not. To me, that doesn't seem to be the important point. What strikes me as important is the person catching themselves. you know, in the situation. And then right there, that's a moment of mindfulness. So right there, the bigger mind can put aside what's what's going on and take care of the situation, return. And as the mind becomes more settled. Over a long time, you know, practice. As that stable condition, stable concentration, samadhi expands through practice and becomes spacious, then the wisdom of what to do arises.

[22:47]

So what can I do to resume balance? How can I return? It seems like that's the question we can hold closely. We also last week had a kind of lively discussion about irritations and standing in long lines, what to do. So, you know, when irritation arises, it's an activity of the mind. It's a disturbance of mind. So to me, the point isn't to think that we can stop irritation from happening, but to ask ourselves, so where is practice when irritation? arises where's practice right now so just the question the mind to quiet down or to create some space and this is samadhi practice when irritation quiets down then there's more space for responding to it we don't always catch ourself catch ourself right away

[24:02]

And someone pointed out, sometimes we don't even want to let go of the irritation. You know, we may feel justified. But when we do turn away from that small self-concern or justification, when we do that, when that happens, whenever we catch ourselves, then we can ask. You know, what can I do to resume balance? How can I return? Just asking that question opens up space. And then that space, there's there's a readiness for a response. So. Just a few days ago. Open. a jar of mayonnaise I had bought like a week before.

[25:05]

I broke the seal and I unscrewed it only to find that it had gone bad. So I brought it back to the store and I went to the customer service counter, explained what happened and I just wanted to exchange it for another jar. The worker asked for the receipt. And I said, well, that was a week ago. I don't have the receipt anymore. But I said, it clearly went bad before I opened it. She said, you can't exchange it because you don't have the receipt. And I said, you know, what do you mean? And she said, well, that's the store policy. I'm sorry. You don't have a receipt, so I can't exchange it. So we kind of went back and forth on it. It never got, like, heated or not. Or, you know, we were polite, but we were clearly both stuck on our own opinion, me kind of thinking that the customer should be taken care of and her kind of thinking that, you know, the policy comes before anything else.

[26:21]

So just as I was about to just kind of give up and. you know, leave. The manager showed up close by, apparently just listening. Just stepped up to the counter and she said, let's let her exchange the jar this time. And so I thanked her, you know, and I picked up the jar that I had gone to get. But just as I. and I was leaving, I heard the first woman say to the manager, why do you always override me in front of the customer? That really bothers me. And I just kind of felt like it was kind of just a very brief moment of connected.

[27:27]

You know, I just connected to her in that moment. And reflecting back, I felt like I missed an opportunity to respond right then. But. Got home, which was only about 10 minutes later, I had decided that I had made a mistake. That I really hadn't taken the whole picture into account, that I've been overly focused on what I wanted to happen. You know, it became. So I sat down and I wrote this little apology card. And the next morning I went and bought a box of chocolates and I took them to the store. And there she was at the service counter. And I said, I'm the person that wanted to exchange mayonnaise and I'm here to apologize to you. I think I was wrong. You know, I didn't really take into account.

[28:30]

the position I put you in with your manager. And this is just a small gift to say I'm sorry. I hope you'll accept it. And she smiled and she thanked me and we exchanged names. And then I turned and left. You know, it was what I came up with, not in the moment, but it was what I came. to kind of return to some kind of internal balance. And my feeling is that we are always returning to practice. You know, I make a lot of mistakes, and I'm grateful to this practice that shows us how to return to some kind of right position. I don't think how long it takes really isn't the point. So Sojin Roshi says, when the mind is freely working, wisdom is arising in reality.

[29:41]

So we're being free then instead of holding ourselves down. And if wisdom is arising continually, then that's enlightened practice. Non-attachment is what gets in our way. It's what lets the mind... Sorry, non-attachment is what lets the mind exist. Attachment is what gets in the way. Non-attachment lets us exist in a balanced state. But he says to practice that way, to balance, you have to be willing to give up and accept freely, to accept completely. So he says, practicing the awakenings continuously is important so that when something comes up, we'll know how to handle it. And then here's what Suzuki Roshi says about wisdom.

[30:46]

And I'm just going to quote him, his words. He says, by wisdom, we don't mean some particular faculty or philosophy. It's the readiness of the mind that's wisdom. Wisdom is philosophies and teachings and various kinds of research and studies. It could be that, but we should not be attached to some particular wisdom, even what was taught by the Buddha. Wisdom is not something to learn. Wisdom is something that will come out of your mind. So the point is to be ready for observing things and to be ready for thinking. This is called emptiness of your mind. Emptiness is nothing but the practice of zazen. So when I think about that word readiness, the word cultivate in the title, cultivate wisdom. You know, in farming and in gardening, cultivation of the soil is like it's essential.

[31:50]

to preparing the ground, taking care of the ground. It's a kind of readiness for what feeds growth. And cultivation provides air to the soil and it lets the nutrients feed the plants and it lets the water penetrate the soil. So it seems like he's pointing to a very, very spacious place, this place of readiness. You know, how are our creative responses connected to readiness? And what I've been wondering about a lot lately is what is there before thinking? What is that space before thinking? How to tap that relationship between readiness and our responses. So that's a good place to stop. And whatever questions or comments or stories, anything you'd like to say will stop for you.

[33:06]

If you raise up, I guess everybody's here on the same screen, right? You can either wave or raise your digital hand in Ross. Sue Dunlap. So Susan, what did you conclude when you focused on the moment before thought? What did you learn doing that? Well, I'm sure everybody's had this experience, but sometimes I notice mostly this happens to me out on the street. If if if I'm observing. And something happens on the street that's not quite appropriate. I notice this afterwards that there's a response and it makes me think, where does the response come from?

[34:15]

It's not. There's sometimes when we stop and we think, what should I do? What happened to me in the store after I turned away? I thought, what should I do? But if if I had been if I had responded before thinking, I might have done something right in that moment. Does that make sense? I'm sure other people have examples of that. So you're saying is almost like. no time between. I'm saying I think what, yeah, I'm saying, and other people please chime in, but I'm saying I think what we're working on in Zen is to respond from a place that's not up here. And that that takes, it takes this culmination of all of these awakenings to be able to be in a spot to do where we're settled.

[35:22]

It's not that thinking isn't doesn't inform us. Of course it does. But there's also a response that comes from not thinking. We see it in times of, you know, chaos or disasters, people just respond, right? I don't know. What do some of the rest of you think? I just got a quick question. That's still very... You can think in a moment. It might not be drawn out thinking, but it's still thinking. It's just more of an intuitive... That's a good way of saying it. Yeah. Kabir. Oh, hi, Kabir. It's so good to see you. Hi. I've been listening to Opening the Hand of Thought.

[36:26]

And what's been helping me when I'm about to fly off the handle or when I get too much caught up in the head is that I come back to the ZZ Prime and Zazen at any time. And I find my breath. I just find my breath and I just try to come to the body. And it just kind of like everything just resets in a way. I still have the thinking mind going, but it allows me to be more proactive and kind of step back. And that's been very helpful. just to come back to the ZZ prime, just to come to the flat line of Zazen at any time. Even if I'm walking and I'm sitting, whatever it may be, just to simply become, and I don't even have to take deep breaths. I don't have to control my breath.

[37:28]

I have to just be, just finding the breath. And then from there, just flushing bones back to, I call it kind of like flat or baseline. Thank you so much. That certainly sounds like Sojin, doesn't it? Isn't that what he was always telling us? Yeah. Yeah. Come back to your breath. And our breath is, in my opinion, it's our number one companion. It's our first friend. It is our life force. It's always been with us. From the minute that we take the first breath until we take our last breath before we leave this form realm. It has been with us. We can go without food and water for days, but for more than two, 30 minutes, at least I can, or not even 30 seconds, but we take it for granted.

[38:28]

We don't even notice it, at least for me, but it's always been here with us, right under our noses. Thank you, Kabir. My pleasure. Thank you for this great class. Thank you. Ross. Yeah, you said that you missed an opportunity during that exchange before the manager came. And what were you thinking? What was the – maybe had coalesced in your mind that you were going to do? I'm just saying in reflection, you know. Oh, in reflection. Oh. Yeah, in reflection. misunderstood i thought you had a sense that i should just let go and just be done with it but then it carried on a little longer okay i'm just like looking back and thinking you know we do that right what could i have done differently right yeah i mean obviously was caught you know but um it was just when i turned away and heard that comment that i i felt it

[39:39]

moment i could have turned back but but it's okay you know i caught myself and did something later yeah um when i was a sales clerk at pete's i there's a policy and occasionally i would um just give a new cup of coffee or a new bag of coffee or whatever because there's enough money it wasn't about the policy it was about the relationship Sometimes the customer would come in, they would kind of push the envelope, and then I would just use the policy as a way to just kind of have them come back to, it's not just about you and customers. Customer is always right. But there's a flexibility that one has to have on both sides, whether one is the so-called in power or one is receiving the services of others to figure out what's the appropriate response this time. Ryushin. Thank you, Ross. Thanks, Susan.

[40:42]

Thanks for so often bringing up examples out of your own life, which are so useful. Just thinking of another way that I feel like Sojin talked about this that I relate to is the difference between small mind and big mind. Big mind is the not self-centered mind, if you will. I find I get into rigid thinking myself or kind of set when I want something for myself. And when I respond from a deeper level, thinking so much about where I am in the mix of things, but I'm just in the situation that is where a certain kind of intuitive responding that I might, maybe that's part of what's meant by wisdom. I wonder about your thoughts about that. No, I said. I mean, I kind of carry this image of putting the small self inside the bigger self.

[41:50]

You know, the bigger self is like the container, right? The small self has to be with inside the bigger self. Everything's in big mind. Yeah. Somehow that image is useful. Anybody else before we go to the final awakening? Carol, did you have your hand up? Well, I am curious. How would you have responded? Oh, gosh. I mean, I know I've got these two scenarios going on in my mind. So now I'm thinking, well, what would Susan have done? What would have been the response? I don't know. Maybe it was fine the way it worked out. I mean, she was kind of annoyed, so maybe that wasn't a good time to say something, right? And I really got it that she was annoyed.

[42:53]

Yeah, good point. I don't know. I'm just saying that. You know, we do that in retrospect, right? Yeah. Thanks, Carol. I see Greg Hertz's hand as well. And then Mira. Okay. Hi, Greg. Hi. Thanks, Susan. That was such an inspiring talk. And I really also appreciated your personal exploration. I have been working a lot with trying to practice returning to this, yeah, samadhi and trusting in my own intuitive spontaneity as a response. And I think it also can be important I think about also investigating what we're what I'm afraid of in not being in that state like we talk about practicing being in that state but also when I'm not in that state when I have a pull to small mind or worry or thinking energy is that about and where is that coming from and

[44:05]

I think it's also interesting to consider sort of honoring that energy. Like, oh, like that self, that part is really scared and really feels like it's protecting the system. And sharing an inquiry, a question that I have, which is kind of, how do we, I mean, mostly just practicing with being in big mind, but how do we also relate to small minds in a way that is useful and honoring, but also takes care of it and allows it to relax. You know, blaming it or ostracizing it. Yeah, well, I think you just said it. Take good care of it. Befriend it, right? Don't push it away. Don't be mad at it. Don't berate it. Bring it along, right? Like Sojin was always saying, what do we have to lose? Right.

[45:06]

That's a really good question to just carry around in our pocket. What do we have to lose? Right. Sounds like you're doing all the right. All the right care. Thank you. So Mira. Yeah. Mute, please. Thank you. I wanted to say that I thought the point you made precepts coming out of wisdom. I thought that was very interesting. I mean, I think I always think about something like the tank. It's like the Ten Commandments, the precepts. So I think about them being handed down, you know, from something outside of us. not from inside, not coming from inside, but coming from outside and being put on us.

[46:06]

So I really like this way you said it, that this would come out of our own wisdom. Yeah, that's kind of what's revolutionary about it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're done with the Ten Commandments, right? But the precepts are similar to the Ten Commandments. Yeah, but the focus and the attitude and the spirit is so different, isn't it? Well, you're saying they're coming from a different way, too. Thank you. So I'm going to go ahead and read the final awakening, and then I think it will probably create some lively discussion. So. Several translations of the title, so not indulging in idle chatter or not being engaged in hollow discussions or not playing around with theories and opinions or refrain.

[47:19]

Frivolous discussions or argument so you can take your pick. And from Tanahashi. The Eighth Awakening is not to be engaged in hollow discussions. It is to experience realization and be free from descriptive thinking with thorough understanding of the true mark of all things. It is called not to be engaged in hollow discussions. If you get into those discussions, your mind will be scattered. Then you will be unable to attain liberation. have left the household. So you should immediately leave behind scattered mind and hollow discussions. If you wish to attain the joy of serenity, you need to cure the sickness of hollow discussions. This is called not to be hollow discussions.

[48:22]

So I was thinking that. Sojin Roshi told us that Suzuki Roshi liked to stop at this diner along the Big Sur coast on the way to Tassahara because chit chat, you know, kind of chew the fat with the locals. And I just loved that story because I was kind of raised on that same idea that wherever you are, you stop in at the local diner to see. who the locals are and to what they're like. So I suppose we could call that idle chatter, but somehow I think not, because there's a kind of sincerity in what Suzuki Roshi wanted. You know, he was curious. He was interested in what's happening right now, right here, this place.

[49:24]

You know, where am I and what's going on here? This looks interesting. And who are these local people? So he was, I think, always interested in connecting. So what is idle talk? Well, about gossiping. Maybe it's about gossiping without knowing what's true from other perspectives. Maybe it's about guessing about or not seeing. Speaking as if we know what we're talking about. Sojin Roshi said it's like a group of intellectuals sitting around a fancy cafe discussing the essence of Zen. You know, pure speculation. And he said that. Gary used to walk into the Zendo, he would say. Practice and keep your mouth shut.

[50:27]

Just sit and close your mouth. So Katagiri Roshi says that speech has to go further than just being kind. To be based on compassion. So what does he mean by that? Well, he says that. It has to include giving a person a chance to grow. And I kind of like that, giving a person a chance to grow. This and friendliness are part of compassion, but that compassion is kind of rooted more deeply in the mind. So suddenly when I read that, I thought, oh, that's why this awakening comes at the end. Now, all the other awakenings are supporting the practice of this may be the most difficult of all. So he's talking about what is it, a spirit or an attitude of practice and its relationship to stable mind.

[51:34]

So Pat Phelan down at the Chapel Hill. In Zen, we're working on establishing a link between our mental activity and our conduct. So I don't. idle talk can kind of reduce the fullness of who or what's being talked about. You know, it's easy to mistake what we think is solid for reality, and it's easy to become fixed, and we're not so easily able to release ourselves. a particular opinion or a response. And she was suggesting that any of the precepts about speech and this awakening are probably the sum of the most difficult to keep.

[52:37]

And I kind of agree. Or it could be just that we don't make as much effort in this area because we like to talk. Speech can really emerge as stream of consciousness and uncensored, especially with trusted friends, right? She suggests that we often use speech to justify our actions and to get support for our points of view. So I just want to read a couple of lines from her words. She says, Language or words arise from sexualization or discrimination. This means that any time we're engaged in language, whether thinking, speaking, reading, writing, or hearing others talk, our discriminative consciousness is automatically engaged and language can be generated from discrimination.

[53:42]

So I don't know what we think about that, but I thought that was interesting. So she thinks that that's why during Sashin we have the guidelines of no reading and writing and no unnecessary talking. You know, we have a better opportunity to engage in that kind of discursive thinking. And thinking, reading, writing, speaking. And hearing other people talk brings us right back to discriminating. So during Sushin, we try our best to . She says that talking brings us right back to what we consider to be normal, which includes our distractions and conditioned interactions. Thich Nhat Hanh describes speech as an energy leak.

[54:45]

So he says if we're concentrated during Zazen and then we talk, all that concentrated energy leaks through our speech. We don't want to hold on, but we can also observe what happens with idle chatter. What happens to our energy? And Sojin Roshi describes idle talk as foolish babble. Those are his words. And he says that that confusion. And when we avoid that kind of talk, then our wisdom can emerge. So he says speaking is already an imperfect way of communicating. And chit chat doesn't really mean much. Doesn't mean much. And he points out that sometimes talk comes from a discomfort with silence.

[55:49]

So what's the relationship between silence and idle chatter? You know, he says that. A practice in silence is so difficult because we like to talk. We often can't stand the silence. And we think that speech moves us along. But when talk. Then the world of comparing can stop. Comparative values can stop. I want to read you just something short again from my Zoom. to close and then we'll go to what you have to say. I'm reading from The Hazy Moon of Enlightenment. So he says, as long as things as if they were outside of ourselves, our talk will be idle.

[57:05]

In a sense, that's why Buddha mentions this avoiding idle talk last. It's the result or the fruit of our wisdom. Only after we've overcome the fundamental delusion between ourselves and others can we really avoid idle talk. This reminds me of a famous story about Yen Tu and Sui Feng. in which Suifeng attains enlightenment on Mount Ao. These two men were Kama brothers under Master Taishan. One day they got caught in a snowstorm while crossing a mountain pass and had to wait in an old cabin for the snow to stop. Suifeng spent the time sitting in Zazen, while Yentou, who attained great enlightenment, napped. and took it easy and teased his elder brother for his serious practice.

[58:11]

Sui Feng could only reply that somehow his mind was not yet at ease, not quite confident of his own understanding. Yen Tao then asked Sui Feng to recount the important enlightenment experiences he had had in 20 or so years of practice, offering to check them for him and to approve. After listening to Sui Feng tell of his three breakthroughs, Yan Tao finally commented, whatever comes in through the six senses is not a real treasure. It should come up from inside yourself and cover head. Hearing this, Sui Feng at last attained great enlightenment and dancing around the hut cried out repeatedly. Today, Sui Feng has attained enlightenment on Mount Ao.

[59:15]

Everything that comes from outside of us, someone or someplace else through reading, through hearing or through seeing. will be a kind of idle talk unless we really understand the very nature of our own being, of our life. Understanding our life, we will then understand everything else as Buddha nature itself. Okay, so now we have a bit of time here. Let's... see what everybody else has to say. And raise your hand and Ross will call on you. Ross, we can't hear you. Sorry. Thank you.

[60:17]

Paolo. Thank you, Susan. I've been enjoying all of it. The last one really is something else. There were a couple of things or two different trains of thought, and I'm not sure. I think maybe I'll go with the last one. Like yesterday's profound insight, tomorrow's chatter, right? In Theravada, they talk about how we... we take the dharma in and and the first thing you have to do is is be exposed to it and to read it and to to hear it um and then to contemplate it and and return to it and study it but that both those things are are inadequate ultimately because ultimately it's something that has to be experienced through firsthand knowledge and that most often for most of us is only through meditation

[61:19]

There are moments of insight. He had his internal experience because of something his Dharma brother had to say. There's a little irony in there. The Zen teachers are like that. They're highly accomplished literary men and then they end up ripping up the sutras but they they've almost earned the right to do that they they if they had just gone to ripping up the sutras without reading and and digesting them they to the point where they realize oh this is you know nothing more than various opinions because they were really going over the finer points and this internal experience Yes, thank you. I don't have anything to say. I'm just enjoying everything you've said.

[62:31]

Anybody else? Your experience with idle chatter? Muir has her literal hand up. Okay. I still, I was just, like, really surprised that this was the eighth one. I really thought it should be maybe the third one, okay? But before samadhi, before wisdom, before mindfulness. Can you say why? Yeah, well, there's the Eightfold Path, right? And the Eightfold Path, I think, right speeches... much earlier in the path and samadhi that's at the end and mindfulness. Those are at the end. So I was just, I think you have to keep your mouth shut before you're going to have samadhi and get wisdom. I think this thing of not idle chatter is so important.

[63:34]

And I, yeah, it's getting harder and harder around people. That's a different issue, Miriam. That's another issue. No, it's because there's idle chatter everywhere. I work in the ceramic studio and people, like you said, very uncomfortable with silence. They have to fill the silence. Yes. So I totally support this. And I love the phrase that you said, an energy leak, because I totally during our sessions, even during our sessions, I've seen so many people that any opportunity to talk, they take, you know, they don't have to talk, but they are uncomfortable. And it's really an energy leak.

[64:39]

I see it as like we're all on a continuum. And, you know, it takes a lot of practice. You've been practicing for 50 years. It takes a long time to. I'm not that old. All right. 40. Thank you. You know, we have to be patient with. The idle chatter that's around us and you have to be the model of. Quiet. Your place. Julianne. Thank you, Susan, for your class. I found it interesting how you commented that this awakening might be the most difficult to do. And that's why it kind of clarified for me why it is the last one, because this. It takes your internal work externally, you know, like I feel like the first seven of them are how we work on ourselves and the things that we can do to to transform ourselves.

[65:54]

And the final one is really just kind of it's almost like a gateway. Taking that work outside and taking it to work with others and. I also kind of find it's a really interesting one just because it deals with how we behave ourselves in discussions with others. It kind of brings to mind, I don't know, maybe this is like a little bit off topic, but how... I've been doing a lot of phone banking lately and I feel discussions with others and how I relate to others in discussions where people may not agree with me or they may come from a very different life experience. It really tests my first seven awakenings.

[66:59]

It really resonated with me when you said that this is the most difficult one. Well, thank you. You just said that all so beautifully, and I wonder if, you know, that helps a bit, Miriam, in explaining kind of where it's put. Thank you, Julianne. Thank you. I couldn't find the raise my hand button. And thank you for this discussion. I've been thinking about the words engage in idle chatter. And I have a lot of things to say, I think. But for me, it's also about what chatter we take in. So we can restrain ourselves and not engage in frivolous discussions, talk about other people. arguments, all the kind of things that I think sometimes are very attractive to us as forms of entertainment.

[68:08]

But one area of my life I'm struggling with or working on is not to ingest a lot of chatter. We're surrounded by chatter everywhere. I mean, edit the tree, comedians. It seems like our whole world in the past 20 years has become this. Everybody has a platform and everybody's engaging in some sort of commentary on everyone else. And it can be very exhausting. And so I this eighth practice as kind of a reiteration of the first in a way, you know, reducing our needs of what we ingest, what we take in, what we what we put into our life into a very small set of things. And so, you know, I'm starting to weed out social media from my life, you know, bring it down to just the most basic ways of communicating with my friends and family.

[69:09]

And it's not easy, but I agree that it kind of takes us back to the beginning of these eight practices as well. Well, that's a really good thing to think of how it's connected to desires. It's also something that Dogen talked about is that, you know, they're interwoven, right? You can jump into one and several will pop up or you can go forward or backward or into the middle. And so thank you for. Tim. Thank you. Hi, Tim. Hi. I totally agree with what Jim said. And I had that on my mind when I read this. And I believe one of the sheets that you gave us, the word noise came up with this. And I thought so much of discussions are noise. And that made me think of the internet. And even though we might not be having discussions back and forth, it gets in our mind.

[70:10]

And there's like this chatter within our mind. And then we just kind of go off with it. So... That was kind of like my key word from noise and what's becoming a noise in our life, whether it's talking to a person or it's social media, things like that. Yeah, thank you. I mean, idle chatter isn't just verbal. It's in the head, too. Yeah, good point. Thank you. I have a question. What about body language? Can you say more? A lot of times, you know, we communicate with our bodies more than our mouths and how we move and how we can be, you know, actually be talking with our bodies. You know, somebody that we don't agree with or somebody that we feel kind of close to, attached to. And I think that's also something that, you know, it can be included in this.

[71:14]

I see what you mean. Like it kind of jumps out from. Right. There's another form. Thank you. Anybody who hasn't spoken want to say something? And we can also, if you have something that was left over, I think because I put this into three classes instead of four, I didn't really allow time for anything that might have come up from the last time. But if you have something you want to say about another awakening, that's also OK. Tim again.

[72:19]

Sure. So last week we started our Zen and the Art of Safeway. And just coincidentally, the next day I had to go to Safeway. And sure enough, I had a very strange line, as I often do at Safeway. It was interesting. I started thinking of the awakenings and the first thing was to get my attention away from the person in front of me who wanted to pay with one thing in cash and then the other two things with two different credit cards. And so it's like, where do I put my attention? This looked as far away as I could also just kind of had fun with it. The absurdity of this is the mundane parts of life. And then the one that stuck out was the, The second awakenings that we went over in the first class, knowing when enough is enough. And we're the kind of satisfaction. And I thought, you know what, I'm satisfied to be here.

[73:24]

I don't really want to be in this line, but yet I'm satisfied. And so it was just kind of interesting that, you know, less than 24 hours later, I was in line at Safeway dealing with the same stuff. Oh, thank you for sharing that. That's just wonderful. To me, that's like something. You know, Trungpa and Dogen right there in your experience. Thank you. Anybody else? I mean, to me, that's the beauty of these as we study them more and more, like Dogen said, everybody should memorize them and walk around with them in you so that exactly what happened that Tim described can start happening in us. This is a great story. Anybody have another story to share? Carol Paul. Well, this isn't actually a story, but this whole, the last awakening, there's a whole other side about how do you, how are you with someone who is doing a lot of idle chatter?

[74:39]

How do you find kindness and compassion without just being rude or walking away or saying something that would be unkind? You know, that is a challenge for me. So how do you work with that question? What do you do? Usually I say, well, I just have a couple of minutes. You know, Darlene, my teacher told me that. She said, you have to find a way, you know, when you start to talk to say, well, I have this much. I'm not really lying. You know, it's the same. This is the time I have for this. It's a real challenge because I don't want to be mean. And sometimes a person, I don't know, they just seem to have to outflow. A lot of outflowing out there going on. Oh, I just maybe someone has suggestions.

[75:45]

Maybe they have better. Darlene said that's sort of skillful to do that. So you're not. Yeah, it's OK to say. Right. Here's how much time I have. So the person isn't feeling neglected. You know, shunned. But you're giving them something. But, you know, it's that it's again, it's that energy drain. You're leaking energy. When you're taking that in, you know, that's just another part of leaking energy. Because you don't, there's nowhere to go. It's not like a question or, you know, a discussion. It's more the person just needing to talk, I guess. Ellen. I see Ellen's hand. Just before that, I just want to say, you can have some of my time, but not all of my time. And that's a way of like honoring, yes, but not all of it and parsing it out. It seems equitable because you're acknowledging both sides.

[76:48]

Ellen. That's good. Thank you. Yeah. In terms of what Carol was saying, I'm feeling a bit lately like, you know, there are people and often do Carol what you do and just say, you know, I don't have more time than this, but I also feel that there are people in my life who really, need to just talk you know they just it's a need that they have for some reason could be that they live alone or that they something's and in a way i feel like sometimes i'm i'm sort of an impatient person but it's sort of a service that i'm practicing of just listening to people who i feel have that need so that's sort of a new thing for me because i'm generally sort of impatient but practicing that a little bit, so just share that. Thank you so much. That's really, I think you said it, that's a gift, really.

[77:49]

Sue Osher. Thanks, Ellen. That really got me, gave me something. Not idle chatter, maybe. Sometimes I found it, if I was given a time limit, which I was, of five minutes to just do that idle chatter, whatever you want to call it. And then that dyad process where you trade off and someone listens to you and you listen to them. I can do five minutes, right? I'm not good at paying attention for longer. And we could go back and forth, but you know, that's a real good practice, I think. Can we do this for five minutes, whatever you want to say?

[78:55]

I think that can lead to some really deep places, because sometimes I have to just talk to someone to know what I'm actually thinking. It's like, oh, I think that there's a problem with that. There might be a way through it or a way to work with it just because someone's listening to me. So I hope I remember that the next time someone talks to me or maybe talks at me. Thank you. Thank you. Ross. back-to-back chats with people, and each one was about two and a half hours. And I was thinking about idle, meaning not going anywhere. Your engine is idling instead of sitting there. So I'd be in that kind of mode, and then depending on the time of the conversation, it felt like idle. It was just kind of going nowhere, but talking, right?

[80:05]

So I thought, well, I want to make the most of this time with this person. And so I had to like put it in gear, if you will, and start asking questions and kind of calling them out on things when they were focused, for instance, or things that were potentially were dharmic, but needed to be kind of flushed out a little bit. So I couldn't just sit back and listen and be patient. I actually had to get off my butt and really get in there with them, which I found actually easier to be with for them. Because when I was thinking about this person likes to chat a lot and it's enjoyable, but really I'm not really enjoying myself so much going all over the place, so I had to, like, come forward and meet them. And I think they were kind of surprised because they were no longer holding forth with their ideas and things they wanted to talk about. But I felt, you know, we met in the middle, so to speak.

[81:06]

And they said, I think sincerely, they really enjoyed it. talking, but it was up to me to kind of come forward to kind of change the typical dynamic that we have. Thank you. You know that you were what I would call an active listener, right? I think I'm an active listener because I'm listening and engaging, but I might not be an active responder that they can hear. Thank you, Susan. Thank you. Sojin Roshi's feeling is if we practice even one awakening, we realize the seven are there as well because they all support each other. And I think Tim's example gave gave an example of that, just how we start to feel the layering of other.

[82:08]

of the other awakenings, even if one comes to our mind. And so he says they're all aspects of the same thing. One is prominent. The others are there, seemingly hidden, but they're still there. So it kind of behooves us to memorize might not be the right word, but to think about those, you know, repeat those eight enough times so that they're really part of awareness that we can access, not just on the Zafu, but out there in our lives. Right. So I wanted to say we're at the end here. I just wanted to say thank you all so much for coming. I really enjoyed this together with all of you. And I've appreciated so much, you know, your comments and

[83:10]

Between classes, I've really thought a lot about the comments that everyone has made and just enjoyed that so much and appreciated that part. So I wanted to say that I'm happy to receive any constructive comments at all, anything that, you know, you feel would have served the class better, any suggestions. But I thought it would be too long. But, you know, just in your thinking about it, if there's anything that he felt that there wasn't enough time or whatever, anything that you want to say.

[83:53]

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