Morning. So thank you all for coming out. I when I was bowing in just now, I was just sort of astonished by those other tulips on the on the altar. They're just sort of. It's like they've heard the rain and they're wide open, you know, ready to receive it. They're really beautiful. So I was just really struck by that. Can you hear me? Yes. Actually, what I'd like to do is begin, if people could just slowly state their name so that because I don't think we all know each other. And usually we do this around work meeting, but we're not going to have work today, so. My name is Hozan.

[01:01]

Alexandra. Paul. Duong. Paula. James. Carol. Naomi. Al. Bonnie. Judy. Kim. Annette. Christopher. Mike. I hope we'll be seeing a fair amount of each other around here in the months and years to come. What I thought I would do today, I gave everybody a copy of the Fukanza Zangi, right? And, you know, one of the things that that we often do during practice periods and other times, Fukanza Zengi is something that we would read for service. And I thought, first of all, this is kind of the earlier text of

[02:06]

Zazen instruction in our family, going back to Dogen, who composed this, and I'll say a little more about that. But I thought it would be good to read it and listen to it. Usually when we do it in service, we're all reading together, but I think we'll be able to take it in better if If we go around actually and have each person read a paragraph. So let's do let's go around the periphery of the room. And then if there's chap, if there's paragraphs left over, we'll go to the middle. So we'll go to Richard and then go around up this aisle. OK. So one paragraph at a time. tainting the way and clarifying the mind, raising an aspiration to escalate the very sky.

[04:03]

One is making the initial partial excursions about the frontiers, but is still somewhat deficient in the vital way of total emancipation. May I mention the ruler who was possessed of inborn knowledge? The influence of his six years of upright sitting is noticeable still. Or Bodhidharma's transmission of the mind seal? You should therefore cease from practice based on intellectual understanding, pursuing words and following after speech, and learn the backward step that turns your life inwardly to illuminate yourself. The body and mind of themselves will drop away and your original face will be manifest. If you want to attain suchness, you should practice suchness without delay.

[05:07]

For some Zen, a quiet room is suitable. Eat and drink moderately. Cast aside all involvements and cease all affairs. Do not think good or bad. Do not administer pros and cons. Cease all the movements of the conscious mind, engaging of all thoughts and views. Have no designs on becoming a buddha. Some men have nothing whatever to do with sitting or lying down. It is a manifestation of ultimate reality.

[07:14]

We must know that just there, in Zazen, The right dharma is manifesting itself in that, in the first, moment of destruction of our society. When you arise from sitting, move slowly and quietly, calmly and deliberately. Do not rise suddenly or abruptly. In surveying the past, we find that the transcendence of both unenlightenment and enlightenment, and dying while either sitting or standing, have all depended entirely on the strength of the bringing about of enlightenment by the opportunity provided by a finger, a banner, a needle, or a mallet, and the effecting of realization with the aid of a husu, a fist, a staff, or a shout, cannot be fully understood by discriminative thinking.

[08:30]

Indeed, it cannot be fully known by the practicing or realizing of supernatural powers, either. It must be decorated beyond hearing and seeing. Is it not a principle that is prior to knowledge and perception? This being the case, intelligence or lack of it does not matter. Between the dull and the sharp-witted, there is no distinction. If you concentrate your efforts single-mindedly, that in itself is negotiating the way. Practice realization is naturally undefined. Going forward in practice is a matter of everyday In general, this world and other worlds as well, both in India and China, equally hold the Buddhist view, and overall prevails the character of this school, which is simply devotion to sitting, total engagement in immobile sitting. Although it is said that there are as many minds as there are persons, still they all negotiate the way solely in zazen.

[09:38]

Why leave behind the seat that exists in your home and go aimlessly off to the dusty realms of other lands? If you make one mistake, you go astray from the way directed before you. You have gained the pivotal opportunity of human form. Do not use your time in vain. You are maintaining the essential work emptied in an instant, banished in a flash. Please, honored followers of Zen, long accustomed to groping for the elephant, do not be suspicious of the true dragon. Devote your energies to a way that directly indicates the absolute. Revere the person of complete attainment, who is beyond all human agency.

[10:43]

Gain accord with the enlightenment of the Buddhas, Succeed to the legitimate lineage of the ancestors' samadhi. Constantly perform in such a manner, and you are assured of being a person such as they. Your treasure store will open of itself, and you will use it as well. Thank you. What occurs to me on listening to this which is always refreshing. I think about the words of a friend of mine who has been working for 30 or 40 years in the prison system, teaching spiritual practice to people in prison, a guy named Bo Lazov, some of you may have heard of him, and he has this four-word teaching that he gives to the men and women that he encounters in these difficult circumstances.

[11:48]

And that is, you can do this. And I think that that's the message of Fukan's Sazengi, is you can do this. And, you know, it's structured in a certain way that at the heart of it is telling you how to do it. And then the last sections are explaining, in a sense, the meaning or the implications of what it is that you are doing. But you can do it. I find it very encouraging. I've always found it very encouraging. This being the case, intelligence or lack of it does not matter. Between the dull and the sharp-witted, there is no distinction. if you concentrate your efforts single-mindedly, that is in itself is negotiating the way. So it's just within the capability of every human being to do this practice.

[12:53]

So this is a, you know, to talk about this would be an entire class that would go on for some weeks. So I think we can only touch on on part of it, and also because I want to leave time for discussion of this in the course of the lecture time this morning. We'll have another opportunity for discussion during tea this afternoon, when we can look more broadly at questions that you might have regarding our practice or the forms. Fukan Zazengi, the translation of that, translates as something like the universal promotion of the principles of zazen. Fu is universal, kan, promotion, principles, is the gi part, and then zazen. And also if there's some confusion as we went through this,

[14:00]

he's using Sanzen as a synonym for Zazen. The first two paragraphs really kind of echo Dogen's... Oh, let me say something about the history. So, this is Dogen. Dogen Zenji is really kind of the source, I think, or one of the sources of our, certainly of the Japanese practice. He was a young monk, a young man who came from, I think as far as anybody knows, a sort of very upper class and perhaps illegitimate birth. his father died when he was very young, and I think his mother died when he was about eight or nine.

[15:06]

Is that right? Does anyone know? And he had his first, this really deep experience at his mother's funeral, watching the smoke drift up from the incense. And he formed an aspiration to become a monk because he was, like many young people, he wanted to know what is this impermanence? Where did his parents go? Where does one go in life? And as he read, his uncle had him ordained at a very young age, I think 11 or 12, in one of the schools of Buddhism. And as he evolved as a young monk, he developed this question.

[16:09]

From reading the Mahayana texts, he saw again and again, these sutras say, we're all originally enlightened. each being is Buddha, each being is originally enlightened. And this is even in the verse that we say with Buddha's enlightenment, the Buddha said, now I am awakened together with all beings. And so his question that he brought to his teachers was, well, if we're all originally enlightened, why do we have to practice? And his teachers at the time said, you know, that's a really good question. I think you should go find a Zen teacher, because this is really a Zen question. And so he did. And he practiced with very good teachers in Japan, and then at the age of 23 or 24, he went to China to search, because he still had doubts.

[17:18]

And after traveling through China, he found his teacher, Rujing, who was an authentic Zen master of the time. This is about 1200, actually this was about 1224 or 1225 when he found Rujing. He practiced with him for several years and had a fairly thorough awakening experience, and at the age of 27 or 28 he returned to Japan. And this is the first text. He returned to Japan with the idea of really establishing the practice that he had encountered with his teacher in Japan, which wasn't there. essentially what we now call Soto Zen, although it didn't have a lot of the trappings, and Rui Jing was reluctant to... Rui Jing was actually the abbot.

[18:29]

He was in the Soto lineage, but he was the abbot of a Rinzai temple in China, and Dogen was not really interested in these kind of sectarian affiliations. But he came back and he established a very formal zendo and formal zendo practice outside of Kyoto. And the first thing that he wrote was this Fukan Sasenji. And that was in, I think, 1227 or 1228. So the first two paragraphs really echo his question. You know, the first paragraph The first sentence is, the way is basically perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent upon practice and realization? If it's perfect and all-pervading, why would you need to practice? What need is there for concentrated effort?

[19:30]

Indeed, the whole body is far beyond the world's dust. It is never, apart from one, right where one is. And then he says, what's the use of going here and there, of going off here and there to practice, as if he were questioning his own journey to China. And then the second paragraph says, well, yes, that's all true, but if you get caught in your thinking, if you get caught in like and dislike, in preferences, in judgments, then you're going to miss what is right before you. You're going to miss the enlightened reality of each of our natures.

[20:37]

And so, we practice. And even though our aspiration is very strong, and it's that aspiration I think that brings us here. How did we get here? How did this room full of people today somehow make your way through this door? It's a very mysterious thing. it took your intention and your effort and then it also took the mysterious workings of beings and causes and conditions that are beyond our understanding that bring us here and so making the aspiration

[21:41]

even is not quite enough. He says, one is making the initial partial excursions about the frontier, but is still somewhat deficient in the vital way of total emancipation. You know, that sounds like a judgment, but it's actually the wonderful condition that we find ourselves in. In another Gensokyo Koan, by Dogen, he says, when Dharma fills your body and mind, you realize that something is missing. So, you can't pin this down. You raise your aspiration, which is your expression of Buddha mind, And at the same time, you realize that this is incomplete.

[22:44]

Your awakening is incomplete. There's always something to be practiced. So from that paragraph, he moves to these exemplars. And it's, I think, by way of encouragement, it's also raising a very high bar. He said, need I mention the Buddha who was possessed of inborn knowledge. The Buddha knew what his aspiration was. He also knew what all of the prophecies were about him as a child. And yet, even with these certainties, even with his inborn knowledge, he still had to sit upright for six years. He had to make this vow and do this act with his body before he became completely liberated.

[23:52]

Or Bodhidharma's transmission of the mind seal. The fame of his nine years of wall sitting is celebrated to this day. The invention of the tea plant There's a legend that the tea plant was invented because while he was sitting facing the wall of a cave for nine years, he tore off his eyebrows as a way to... I don't know if this is an effective way. eyelids, eyelids, not eyebrows, right? Eyelids as an effective way to keep. I guess that would keep you awake, you know, at least for a little while. And and he threw them in the tea plants. That's the arch. Is that right now? Well, he talks about this now. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's what I remember. So even though.

[24:59]

he understood that his nature was already awakened, he realized he had to sit there for nine years. Since this was the way with the saints of old, how can people of today dispense with negotiation of the way? And then he tells you, then he goes into the Zazen instruction, but first he tells you what you need to do. This is sort of bracketed. You should therefore cease from practice based on intellectual understanding, pursuing words and following after speech. Therefore, you should not be listening to me right now. But you should take the backward step that turns your light inward to illuminate yourself. In other words, you have to reflect on your own nature.

[26:02]

You have to reflect on what is happening within your body and mind. You step back, which is why we sit facing the wall. It allows us, I think, to step back fairly effectively simply by limiting some of the sensory input. We sit in a quiet place. That's the first thing he says in the next sentence. For Sanzen, for Zazen, a quiet room is suitable. You eat and drink moderately. Cast aside all involvements and cease all affairs. You know, you basically limit the various sensory and mental input that we normally have as we walk about in the world. So if you learn the backward step that turns your light inward to illuminate yourself, body and mind of themselves will drop away and your original face will be manifest.

[27:11]

If you want to attain suchness, you should practice suchness without delay. So this is kind of a conundrum. How do you attain something that can't be attained? You attain it by actually doing it. You do it simply by having this intention, maintaining your posture, maintaining your mind, and turning this light inwardly. And when you do that, that is actually manifesting your awakened nature. So, in Govinda, he had a very strong the strong teaching and the critique that he had of this form, the Zazengi, was a common form. There were quite a number of them throughout Zen tradition. But often what they were proposing was that all of these, the methodology of Zen was a technique.

[28:26]

It was a technique for waking up. And his critique of that was, no, it's not a critique for waking up, it's actually waking up. Just to take that posture and to take that to embody your attention is actually the expression of our enlightened nature. It may not always feel like that. But That's the attitude that we have towards practice. That's why sometimes to see a room full of people who've come here to sit zazen, when I think about it, it brings me close to tears. Because even though I feel incomplete, each of us may feel incomplete, just to bring ourselves

[29:28]

to this place and to practice together, or to bring ourselves in our daily life to practice, is the expression of enlightenment. This is what Dogen called later, practice realization. That there wasn't practice and realize, practice that you didn't practice so that you then realize something, but you practiced whether you know it or not, because you already realize something. So it's the expression, that's the very expression of our Buddha nature. And still, we need some instruction, we need encouragement, we need to be reminded of this, and we need some encouragement to do this. So then he goes to Zazen instruction, which to some degree was, I think, fairly close to the instruction that I gave this morning, I hope.

[30:31]

And he tells you then, he says, once you have adjusted your posture, take a deep breath, inhale and exhale, lock your body left and right, and settle into a steady, immobile sitting position. I want you to be clear about this. If I were... Immobile sort of implies a kind of rigidity. I just think that's our sense of the language, and I don't know what the language actually is, but I will say, I have been places where if you move during Zazen, they yell at you. I don't know if anybody's experienced that. Have you? It's like, when that happens, it's not a place I'd go back to. The other thing to recognize, and Sogen Roshi has said this, we're always moving.

[31:41]

Everything is always moving. It's just the scale of that movement may be very subtle. But things are always moving in the universe. Things are always moving in our body. If they didn't move, we'd be dead. When the blood stops circulating, that's movement. It's circulating. So, immobile means just to hold this place and not be pushed around by our thoughts or our feelings or our painful legs. I just said, don't take that too far, that's all. That's what I'm saying. And then he says, what you do with your mind. And this gets to, were many of you here yesterday for lecture? So, Sarjan Varsha was talking about Shikantaza, which, as I said, is just sitting, or just hit sitting, which is, this is it.

[32:43]

Think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Non-thinking. This is the essential art of Zazen. And this is the subject of many books. What does this mean? I think one thing that it means, non-thinking, in a sense means, to me, not actively pursuing discursive thought. not making up. We have this wonderful human propensity for stories. And actually, to me, this is a great pleasure and a great treasure. We're always making up stories. But for this time, there are 23 hours left in the day, aside from when we sit sahasana,

[33:48]

to enjoy our capacity for making up stories. For this time, can we set that aside and just let this stream of awareness flow freely? And I think you will notice as we sit here in the course of the day, when we sit multiple periods of Zazen, The current slows down. Things slow down, they get quieter, they're still always moving. But when they slow down, you can sense the depths. So, non-thinking means don't put any, don't add any energy to that stream of awareness, so that stream of mind, stream of mind actually, just can you very lightly observe it?

[35:08]

And again, this is the sense that I would have of concentrating on everything. Of just having a broad, soft awareness of everything. All the sense information, all your thoughts, all your feelings. If you concentrate very... it's like... You'll forgive me for using sort of cheapening physics, but it's like the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. If you put, the more energy you put, say on concentrating or focusing, the more energy you're actually injecting into that system. So if you can just keep a very broad, soft and light awareness, then you're letting things be just as they are.

[36:12]

So when you can do that then, Dogen says, the zazen I speak of is not learning meditation. It's not a set of techniques. It is simply the dharmagate of repose and bliss. Now, I must say it took me years before I had some sense of this repose. In a sense I had it from the beginning, otherwise I wouldn't have done it. But it wasn't easy for me. Actually for some people it's quite easy, and they have other difficulties. But I would say, you know, even on cold mornings when I am loath to get out of bed and come down here. When I sit, as soon as I take the seat, I feel this repose. I feel this ease and I am really, you know, I am grateful for this practice that I think very literally has saved my life.

[37:27]

And I have faith in that. I have faith in that for myself and because also I look around, you know, and I see a number of people in this room that I've been practicing with for a long time and I see how all of us have evolved, matured, deepened, stabilized in ways that I can't always exactly name. but I believe that it's the process, it's practice that seems to do that. And that sounds like a goal, but it's also, it's just what we do. We just come back here day by day, or we come to our meditation place day by day. So I think actually, rather than going through this, I think I want to stop and just open for for questions and discussion in the 10 or 15 minutes that that remain.

[38:37]

Do you have any thoughts or questions? Is there something or pieces of this that are are mysterious or or not clear to you? Yes, I love this paragraph. in addition to bringing about enlightenment, etc. But I didn't understand it at all. So it's a switch, it's a rather abrupt It's moving from the paragraph before where he says in serving the past we can find that the transcendence of both unenlightenment and enlightenment and dying while either sitting or standing have all depended upon the strength of Zazen.

[39:48]

So what he's saying there I think is that as you cultivate Zazen you develop a kind of composure, and Suzuki Roshi talked about composure a lot. You develop the capacity for accepting and embodying anything that comes your way. So from there, it says, in addition, the bringing about of enlightenment by the opportunity, so I think that a lot of this, is these are all, if you read the Zen stories, it seems like people are enlightened by all of these different methods. You know that Rinzai had a great shout and somebody, and Gutei would hold up one finger and some people would use a whisk.

[40:51]

These are all tools and I think what people mistake is that it's actually that these are somehow what causes enlightenment and what he's saying you can't understand that you can't understand what's happening in when enlightenment comes but that it's been Again, that it's dependent upon the strength of cultivation that's already occurred. Dependent upon the strength of zazen. And I was thinking in that... It must be deportment beyond hearing and seeing.

[41:53]

So there's a line from the Rinzai, or Lin Chi had, it's a saying, it's in one of the Koan collections, the Book of Serenity. Lin Chi says, there's a true man of no rank, a true person of no rank, that freely goes back and forth from the portals of one's face. In other words, This is kind of where there's a collection of various sense organs. Eyes, ears, nose. It's really amazing how collective they are in this one place. But beyond the senses, there is the true person is coming and going freely, not bound by the senses. So that is to me what he means in that sentence. it must be deportment beyond hearing and seeing.

[42:59]

That it's not dependent upon our minds, it's not dependent upon any particular, so he's moving from these particular kind of skillful means of awakening to looking at the mind itself, that Dzasin, a realization is beyond that and cannot be categorized. I think that's sort of pointing at it anyway. Other thoughts, questions? David. In the sentence where he talks about depending entirely on the strength of the sun, he doesn't actually say that enlightenment depends entirely on the strength of the sun. transcendence of both unenlightenment and enlightenment, and so on, depend entirely on... My take on that, the implication of that, is that enlightenment does not depend on anything.

[44:16]

The tazen is not a tool for achieving enlightenment. It's a manifestation of enlightenment. It is itself. Right, and I think I would turn it around the other way as well and say, we do not, our practice does not depend upon our idea of enlightenment, right? If we're practicing because we think the point is to get enlightened, which of course is a very, this is, just to say, this is a sharp debate, I would say, within the Zen school. about the necessity and function of enlightenment. There are teachers in schools, and wonderful teachers, who would basically say, well, until you've had this large enlightenment experience, you haven't even begun.

[45:18]

Which is kind of daunting. and they, you know, they hold to that, people will hold to that position, but when you really press them, you know, it gets more complicated and subtle than that. Whereas, you know, I would say, so that's maybe the downside of one set of Zen schools. The downside of our set of Zen, our Zen school, I would say, is we downplay enlightenment, and as if it weren't important as if realization weren't important and so without a sense lacking a sense of urgency which and you can see this it's actually something pretty urgent in this whole text lacking that sense of urgency we can we actually can spend years drifting

[46:22]

and not really turning up the heat on our practice. So that's, you know, actually in conversation with Aitken Roshi, you know, one thing he said about our school in a moment of candor was, well, it's very good on character development, but it's very soft on realization. It's kind of mushy. And there's some truth in that. But it's not THE truth. There is no THE truth. I was thinking that realization somehow requires the body to get involved in the understanding that maybe the reason why after an enlightenment experience there still has to be practices the body has to be engaged in it in some way.

[47:29]

Yeah. Well, there are various you know, there's the title of a book of Jack Kornfield's, After the Ecstasy of the Laundry and there is a saying that That also I heard from Akin Roshi, he said, well, after a large kind of opening experience, your body quivers for three days. And what he said was, what's really significant in that is that after three days, it stops quivering. And then what? And there's a whole book of, I don't know, have any of you read Three Colors of Sin? There's a book of essays that sort of attribute to Three Pillars of Zen 30 years later by Kapilavastu students, you know, all of whom have gone through this very rigorous Koan training program and, you know, passed all those Koans, had all these big experiences, and lo and behold, for all those experiences, they still felt, almost like, oh, well now, how do I live?

[48:44]

That is the fundamental question. The fundamental question to me is, how do you live? What do you do with your life? Is the expression of your life an action in practice? Can that be the expression of enlightenment, which means wisdom and compassion? Are you doing something that is in the world, that is an expression of your enlightenment. If not, then you're hiding your light under a rock or you're protecting it or saving it. Why would you do that? And if you are doing that, is that enlightenment? So this comes back to Dogen's idea of practice realization, that we are learning here to manifest our true nature each time we sit.

[49:48]

And I was going to say something, I think this is probably where I'll end, or maybe I'll take one more. You know, I don't know if Carol instructed you, when we leave the zendo here, you get to the door, you stand at the door, you do a small shashu bow, and walk through the door. People know that? So most zendos, what you do when you reach the door is you turn around and you do a gassho to the altar. And I think the symbolism there is I'm leaving this space now. I'm leaving this sacred space and I realize mindfully that I am walking out into another space. What I've been taught, what Sojourn did, and I remember when this changed, was to do this at the door. We're not leaving anything.

[50:50]

We are just acknowledging, stepping over a threshold from one room of enlightenment into another room of enlightenment. And we're not making a big deal about it. We're just kind of marking that place and stepping forward. So that, I think, is the way that we honor practice realization by taking it forth into the world. By not marking this as a very special place. But just as a space in which we have some ability to practice, and we learn some things, but the real crucible of what we learn, the real crucible of Zazen is how we practice moment by moment in our lives as we walk through the world.

[51:54]

So maybe it's time for one more. How do you deal with wanting to fall asleep? Oh, that's a really good question. Very practical. I'll tell you what I think, and maybe some of the other seasoned meditators can chime in. So, if you're sleepy during zazen, that's sleepy zazen. For me, I try to wake up And I don't judge myself for being sleepy. And sometimes it's uncomfortable. I let it be uncomfortable. And I do, you know, I make an effort to wake up. I may do some, go back to that kind of breathing that I was talking about.

[52:58]

the way you breathe at the beginning, just, or I may try really to concentrate on my breathing, but sometimes you're just tired. Especially, well, people have different kinds of circadian rhythms. I'm always, by the time I get here in the morning, I'm actually quite awake. It's not a sleepy time for me generally, even though I could sleep forever if I was in bed. In the afternoon, it's rough. almost every afternoon when I come here from Zazen, you know, there will be a period when I'm just, you know, kind of, I find myself nodding. I don't judge that. I try to wake up. I will, you know, I will give myself Zazen instruction. but there's sleepy zazen, there's painful zazen, there's awake zazen, there's wonderful blissful zazen, there's excruciating endless zazen, it's just zazen.

[54:00]

I don't know if any of the other long-time practitioners have any advice for sleepiness I'd like to hear. I find You need to take a little nap. Yeah, absolutely. I was over here timekeeping the first period and I was very sleepy, but as a timekeeper, I couldn't let myself fall asleep. So I would lift my eyes up and look towards the ceiling. That kept me awake. Yes. Well, I don't recommend napping during Zazen, although it's been done. Some places, you know, the city of 10,000 Buddhas, they have practices where they never lie down. And I remember the first time I went in their meditation hall, it was full of people and they were like, you know, it's like, okay, well, that's an approach.

[55:07]

And they have, I have, and Sochin has in his office, little The Chan, Chinese, and I think maybe in Sino, I don't know if they use it, but they use it in China, chin rests. These sticks with a little, a little semicircle cut in them. You would put them here and you'd rest your chin, which saves you from the, I don't know if anybody's had the experience of like, you know, it's like you nod out and you're, all of a sudden you, you know, you feel like you're about to fall. That has happened. Anyway. There's no meaning to the phrase hitting the wall. Right. Right. Every now and then you'll hear a thunk in the afternoon zazen. Judy. Well, I personally find it almost painful to sit when I'm sleeping. And I have never fallen asleep during zazen.

[56:08]

But what I do do is try to get as much sleep as I can. It's so painful to try to stay awake. Sometimes I'm digging my fingernails into the tips of my fingers to stay awake, and closing my eyes when we type. But those are just devices, and I don't find it at all pleasant. But the other thing is when you're doing this machine, there are breaks. And many of us are in the community room on the floor, and it's amazing how easy it is to fall asleep. And that's what I would recommend, is take every opportunity that you have to take a nap, a true nap. I recommend naps. And I also recommend the investigation of, if there's nothing else, if you're there and it's painful, then you investigate the pain. You know, that's all you can do.

[57:11]

I think we should end and we'll have Ken in after this, but we'll have tea and time for a more general discussion later this afternoon. So thank you.

[57:26]

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