Anybody wants to bring up from last class? Yes, well, Mary had the, yes, there was, and I don't have it with me, and do you have any more of the Hawaii columns for tonight? No. Do people, there was, so this you've got? No. Right, I didn't bring that stuff and my copy, so can you share one for now and then we can make you one afterwards or at the break because I've scribbled all over and I didn't bring any extras. Well, it wouldn't be hard to copy it at the break, it's not that long. Do other people have enough anyway for now? Okay.

[01:01]

Anything else from last week? Okay. Do you have anything that you want to say that's kind of, you know, left over or came up later or anything? I'll probably remember it by the break. Okay. So I'm going to talk about tea ladies. and a subject near and dear to my heart. I hope you had a chance to do this reading. Tea Ladies are anonymous and they often seem to serve to wake people up very abruptly even, even rudely. They're kind of in your face usually, tea ladies. And there's often in the commentaries you'll notice there's things about kind of quaking in their boots or being scared of the tea ladies.

[02:03]

They're anonymous, which is in a lot of ways unfortunate because we don't know them and we don't have like, you know, biographies of the tea ladies as we have biographies and at least biographical information about a lot of the men in the Kohan collections. But there's also something kind of wonderful about their anonymity, that there's a self-sufficiency about them, you'll notice, that they, you know, they don't need transmission. They don't need a temple. They don't need to be surrounded by lots of disciples. That's not the point for them and in that way they're a wonderful teaching for us, a wonderful example. There's a tea man that I know and his name is Lou Hartman. And maybe some of you know him, Blanche Hartman's husband. And he gave a lecture once, and then in the question and answer, somebody said to him, why don't you have a brown robe?

[03:07]

Why haven't you done transmission? And Lou said, well, it just never interested me to do that, or I've never wanted to do that. And the guy said, but you're, you know, you're a really important teacher. You're a really important teacher for me. And Lou looked at him and he said, well, why do you need your teacher to have a brown robe? And I think that tea ladies are like that, you know? And some of the commentaries in here are about transmission. And I thought, well, OK, that these women are disciples, mostly of Zhaozhou. But at any rate, they probably didn't feel like they needed transmission. And I don't think they needed transmission. I just would like to know more about them. However, we don't. But we do know something about them that's in these koans and in others.

[04:12]

I wanted to start with something. What I'd like to do is read it and hardly comment on it at all and then we'll read it again before the break and then we'll talk about it last. So I'd like to kind of try to set it in your mind. I want also to say something at the beginning about koans and working with koans. People often read them and they say, I don't get it, I don't understand them. And I know someone that says he won't study koans because he doesn't understand them and he likes the way Norman talks about koans because when Norman talks about koans he does kind of explain them and he tells stories about the people. But there's another way of working with koans, and that is what I advocate to you tonight at any rate, and that is to really sit with them and penetrate them.

[05:25]

And usually your first understanding, you may read it and you may just say, oh yeah, da-da-da-da, fine. But the real understanding of it comes from putting yourself into it, opening your heart to it, so that if there's a koan that grabs you in some way, speaks to you in some way, and it may be it speaks to you that your whole body says, no! Or you just think, this doesn't make any sense at all, but it kind of pisses you off, you know? That's getting you somehow. So just keep reading it. And maybe when you sit down to sit zazen, kind of drop the question inside yourself and just sit with it. I'm not talking about thinking about it at all, but like read it before you go to bed every night for three weeks. And then when you sit zazen, just say, what is it about that koan? Or what are they saying?

[06:28]

Or what's he saying? Or she's saying? Or whatever it is, just keep keep with it and then often they start opening up and speaking to you in a much deeper way. Michael Wenger calls Koans Zen Rorschach tests. We see ourselves in these. And just even reading different versions about the same koan, different translators and so on, the two people's interpretations of the koan or of the verses and so is completely different. So what the hell? You can have your interpretation. I think that We had a great experience of that last week with talking about the material that Grace brought up. You know, people had different understandings. There's not an understanding that's correct. But what's important and what's important is letting it penetrate. So, does everybody have a copy of this excerpt from Case 28?

[07:34]

The case 28 in the Mumonkan is about the awakening of Dushan. This one is Akin's, mostly. I picked and chose a tiny bit. Akin said his mouth sputtered, and the other one said his mouth uttered bitterness, and I liked uttered bitterness better, so I stuck it in there. The koan itself is about Dushan waking up and he goes to the master, to Lungtan, and he confronts him kind of and says, that he does. Lung Tan means the dragon pond. And he says, I don't see a dragon or a pond here. And Lung Tan says, well, you see Lung Tan.

[08:42]

And he's already been softened up by the tea lady, which is what I actually want to talk about. I don't want to talk about Dushan and Lungtan particularly, but I think I need to put it in a little context. So this took place after that confrontation. Anyway, they wound up, he was impressed by that, that you see Lungtan in front of you. And they sat and they talked all night long, well, well into the morning, and it was still dark. He went to go to bed and he saw it was dark outside and Lung Tan gave him a lantern and he turned to go and Lung Tan blew the lantern out and he woke up. However, it was the tea lady that had something substantial to do with it because during that afternoon he met her and Dushan was like Mr. Diamond Sutra. He'd written a commentary on the Diamond Sutra, and he was a noted authority on the Diamond Sutra, and he'd heard about this heresy in the South, that there was some direct transmission outside the scriptures, this Zen stuff, and he thought that was ridiculous, and he basically was marching South with his Diamond Sutra, and he was going to stamp it out.

[09:58]

And he came to this tea lady, He asked her for a refresher. So this is what this is. So let's read this. Why don't we just start with Anne. Just read to start and then just read around, just read a paragraph. Before Deschamps crossed the barrier from his native province, his mind burned and his mouth uttered bitterness. Full of arrogance, he went south to exterminate the doctrine of special transmission outside the sutures. When he reached the road to Wee Choo, he sought to buy refreshments from an old woman. The old woman said, Your Reverence, what sort of literature do you have there in your heart? Bheeshan said, No, some commentary is not the diet of suture. The old woman said, I hear the diet of suture said, Past mind cannot be grasped.

[11:06]

The present mind cannot be grasped. The future mind cannot be grasped. Which mind does your reverence intend to refresh? Dishan was dumbfounded and unable to answer. He did not expire completely unto the world, aware of the death. Is there a teacher of Zanbulism in this neighborhood? The old woman said, the priest looked on. It's about half a mile from here. Arriving at Lungtang's place, Dishan was utterly defeated. His earlier words certainly did not match his later ones. Sometimes he disgraced himself in his compassion for his son. Finding a bit of live coal in the oven, he took up muddy water and drenched it, destroying everything at once. Viewing the matter dispassionately, you can see it is all a lie. So there's a lot of irony in sarcasm in that last paragraph. But what I just want to direct your attention in your unthinking mind, your non-thinking mind, to the exchange with the old woman.

[12:19]

And notice that arriving at Leung Tan's place, Dushan was utterly defeated. That's partly a reference to his exchange with Leung Tan. But what does it say about his exchange with the old woman? What did she do for him? What happened there? What did he come up against? So we'll come back to that. So we'll talk about these, we'll just see how far we get with these Kahawai koans. The first one is called The Tea Woman. Yes, it's page 10. It's the one with the tree on the front.

[13:24]

And it says page 10 at the top. It's actually the first page. Magu, who by the way is, you know, Zen Master Baoche of Mount Mayu was fanning himself, a monk approached and said, da [...] da, this familiar to you? That's, this is this guy, Baoche, sometimes known as Baoche. At any rate, and Nanchuan and another monk went to call on Jingxuan. On the way, they met a woman whom they asked, which way is the road to Jingxuan? She said, right straight ahead. Magu said, the river ahead is deep. Can we cross it or not? The woman said, it doesn't wet the feet. He then asked, the rice on the upper bank is so good, while the rice on the lower bank is so weak.

[14:31]

The woman said, it's all been eaten by mud crabs. He then said, the grain is quite fragrant. The woman said, it has no smell. He asked, where do you live, lady? The woman said, I'm just right here. When the three monks got to her shop, the woman prepared a pot of tea and brought three cups. She said to them, oh monks, let those of you with miraculous powers drink tea. As the three looked at each other, the woman said, watch this discrepant old woman show her own miraculous power. Then she picked up the cups, poured the tea, and went out. So they're headed for the teacher and they met this tea lady and they asked, which way is the road to Jing Shan? The commentary, I don't know if you, I hope you read it. This may have been a deep question, maybe.

[15:35]

Maybe not. Maybe it was just a simple, straightforward question. It may have been the question, what's the way to enlightenment or something? Then she said, right straight ahead. And what do you make of that? Distracting. I think so. I think so. And also it starts wherever you are. Yeah. But it's also her. They're looking at her, too. Right.

[16:38]

And she certainly is somebody who goes right straight ahead. Maybe it means through me. She's the gatekeeper. Yeah, and they may have asked in this, you know, what's the road to Jingxia, and you know, probably they knew, so that was, you know, there was, okay, let's meet, right? Okay. And then they did, right? And then the river ahead is deep. Can we cross it or not? And she said it doesn't wet the feet. So what's that exchange? I think sometimes it's easy to, I mean, one can get into being worried that you'll say something

[17:42]

foolish or something, and or that it seems so obvious that you don't want to say it, but it's okay. And we're doing this together, you know, so then there's innumerable possibilities. So please feel invited and encouraged. This is a physical river. So when that switch explodes, I don't know what's going on. or something crossing the rivers.

[18:49]

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Awakening and... Yeah, so it doesn't seem there. It seems that if they were on a sub-liberal, sub-liberal conversation before this, it's definitely... She's not talking to everybody. Really. And I guess that maybe gets to the rice, because I don't understand Well, we're coming to that. We've got to cross the river. Yeah. You might also be saying that you're getting ahead of yourself. The river's not too appropriate. It's not getting your feet wet now. So why worry? Yeah, I was that person. Maybe it's just some sort of fear of getting your feet wet. You know, that's not something to be concerned about. You kids are too little yet anyway, don't we even worry about it? We don't have to get lost in worrying.

[19:51]

You think you're ran out. He says it's deep. Can we cross it or not? Oh, the river is deep. I mean, it's like the whole duality, it's over there and I'm here and it's big, I'm small, can I do it? And she's kind of... Right, right. I think so. She goes right to the emptiness, you know, and they're saying, oh, the way is so hard. No, no. Just do it. Why? Put, uh... Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[20:56]

Mm-hmm. purposeful use of the word I am is in fact a form of expression of the word. Right. She's staying. She's sticking with that and goes straight ahead, you know. Goes straight ahead. Doesn't get your feet wet. Just do it. Sound like somebody else, you know. She's also referring to herself as the river. I mean, going back to this business of let's engage with it. I guess it feels like deep water. What's going to happen here? She's again saying, come on.

[22:02]

Yeah, I was thinking another way, he was saying, maybe this is saying the same thing, you know, that he was saying it's really, they're saying it's deep, is it hard, you know, can we cross it, and so they're saying it's hard, it's hard, and she's saying it's easy. But like, get on with it, come on, let's get on with it. Kind of the opposite way, maybe she's saying that the obstacle in their own mind, in their own delusion, I mean there seems to be, the next line is about upper bank and lower bank. So it would suggest that there is actually, they are talking about a subsistible river perhaps. I think the depths are elsewhere. They're in there. And we're looking. So it's on a bunch of different levels. It could well be. Yes, that's one of the images of enlightenment.

[23:25]

Well, I don't know. It's possible. I kind of think that she's not saying that they wouldn't get enlightened. I think that she's... I mean, I... Peter is sort of thinking that she's kind of, you know, saying, come on, come on, dears, maybe that she's being nice. I think she's being sort of OK, because I think she's being a little snotty kind of thing. We're engaged right now. I'm straight ahead. I'm the river. It's happening right now. You're going to miss it. Oh good, okay. I didn't think she was being sweet at all. Okay, it's more like... Put up your dukes. Alright, okay. Yeah, because that's what it feels like to me too. They're really into it and I wonder, well, I wonder, I wonder what other people think. Like I think this is kind of a theme that I saw in the tea ladies story, where the, you know, the women, the tea ladies are saying to the moms, you know,

[24:57]

They say it in their own different voices, but they say, OK, look at the practice. The practice is here. It's not somewhere else. Get real. And they have their own ways of saying it. This one's sort of wonderful. It's sort of like Samuel Beckett and UNESCO. I mean, it's really got wonderful specifics, but it's still, I think it's about that difference. Yeah, that's a good description of them, too. So maybe they're like gatekeepers a little bit. You know, you have to pass these people in order to actually go on and study. But they're going to wake you up and not mess around. Yeah? Well, maybe just on the part of residents, was it Ming Tao? You know, his line made on the bed, you know, Can I enter or not? If the riverhead is deep, can I cross or not?

[26:04]

And this is kind of like Athens couldn't. Or if you cross the Athens canyon, you don't even get wet. It's amazing how many levels you can do this. I was wondering if, this is a little different, but I'll say it's not. In the fact of asking if it's deep, or not can be caught, the fact that it can be deep, or it can be not, but it can be deep. And to cross it and not get your feet wet is to be in the absolute where you are actually, you know, one with water. That's right, and somehow I want to say something about not picking and choosing, and I'm not sure where that is in here, but it seems like it's somewhere in here, you know, the shin shin ming, the great way is not difficult, only avoid picking and choosing. Well, I think that is perfectly correct.

[27:07]

It's all the same, no big deal here, just go for it. Right. So shall we go on? The rice on the upper bank is so good while the rice on the lower bank is so weak, she said. It's all been eaten by mud crabs. So she just keeps coming from emptiness, you know. She just cuts them low and cuts them low. But does anybody have an idea about what this, the rice on the upper bank is so good while the rice on the lower bank is so weak? Maybe. I thought about the upper bank is nearly, you know, kind of like let's stay up here and not go down to the water. Yeah, the rice on the upper bank is so good while the rice on the lower bank is so weak. And then she says it's all been eaten by mud crabs. Does anybody?

[28:11]

I mean, I think that's entirely possible. There's some kind of picking and choosing going on. I don't know. It's interesting, isn't it? He keeps trying. He keeps... Well, I wonder sometimes when they have these encounters if they think we'll make the first tour by accident. And it's like, well, let's just get a little more into this and see if I'm really meeting someone or not. Yeah. So, let's see. And then he tried, the grain is quite fragrant.

[29:20]

It has no smell. So I think it's more of the same. I don't know if anybody has anything particular to say about it. In this case, I wonder if he's talking about her teaching. It may be. I mean, it may be some sort of... Yeah. And it may refer to the rice. that they've just been talking about. I think so. What do you think? And she's teaching. Well, what do you think?

[30:22]

You think so? It certainly is one way to read it. He's on this level and she's somewhere else. I mean, he's the pregnant. Well, this rice is better and this rice is pregnant and the water's deep. It seems that he's kind of being literal or ordinary and she is Well, it's Magu, Nanchuan and one other monk. These guys are? They're young at this point. But still, you know, the trouble... They're not chumps. They're not chumps. And the river head is deep. Can we cross it or not? And tea ladies are kind of famous, you know? I mean, so... When he says, where do you live, lady?

[31:23]

I got the impression he's saying, who are you? Yeah. So it's been a building. At that point, he turns directly to just saying, what the hell? So somewhere, I got the impression, somewhere around the rice and the fragrant grain, he gets switched. Mm-hmm. Well, that could be. In my last line, Thanks for your support for what you were saying. for all this profundity and she's enigmatic when it's right there. It's very ironic and at their expense. Yes, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

[32:28]

So we don't know exactly where they kick in, and so we have some differences, but at some point, they certainly did. At any rate, so the grain is quite fragrant, it has no smell, and then he asked, where do you live? Where do you live, lady? And so what is that? Where do you live, lady? Somebody already said something about it. Like, who are you? I'm sorry? Where is your mind? Where are you speaking from? Yeah, and I think it's sort of like, you know, like, show me. Come, you know, come out completely. Something like that. There's one reference, I think it's something about asking who a teacher is or something. Okay.

[33:32]

So then she said, I'm just right here. And they got to her shop and she brought the tea. And then she said, oh monks, let those of you with miraculous powers drink tea. And they looked at each other. You know about layman pongs? He said, you know, my miraculous powers, chopping wood and carrying water. So one of the things I think is, you know, they say, where do you live, lady? So who are you? And then she's saying, but those with miraculous powers drink your tea. Okay, you guys, show me who you are. Does anybody have anything else to say about this? Oh, yes.

[34:35]

I'm right here. Right. I'm just right here. And then she says, let those of you with miraculous powers drink tea. And they were something. They looked at each other. Yeah. I think that If you think of the tea as the teaching, then what she's saying is that they can't be taught by somebody unless that somebody has the teaching. So she has the teapot and so she's saying that She's saying that if they did get any teaching in the last few months, in the process of this discussion, then she must be a teapot.

[35:49]

So it's like, in some sense, she's saying, she's asking them to recognize her as a teacher. Do you think she needs this? No, I don't think so. I mean, this is like the transmission, you know, there has to be a transmission of the teaching from a teapot to a cup to you, you know, you can't just, unless you have mountain miraculous power, you can't just tea. Heavy, yes. But because they don't really think they have miraculous powers.

[37:01]

And so how can they drink tea? She said, but those have miraculous powers to drink tea. And they really don't believe in the miracle of their own being there, in their own life. They're thinking in terms of some other kind of supernatural thing, just as they seem to be talking on a more literal level than before. So there's a kind of divide, where they're either at a more literal level, or they're off on some idea of miracles. And so she points to let those with miraculous powers drink tea. They don't know what she means, but then She miraculously pours tea, which is what anybody can do. But if you understand the full implications of pouring tea, adding tea, growing tea, people meeting, it's all quite extraordinary.

[38:18]

are aware of all that's involved in the simple act. When we see it as a miracle, instead we mostly just take everything for granted and have it repetition. Being caught in the So once again, she's taking them and setting them down right here. Yeah, right. So you've got miraculous powers.

[39:22]

There's a lot of good they do you, both on the literal level of you can't drink tea, and on the level of miraculous powers of distraction. That's not the Dharma. That's not the teaching. Go ahead and develop them. That's not the point. Uh-huh. That's it. She said, if you let her suffer, you will be caught by the world. If [...] you let her suffer, you will be caught by But there are two parts here.

[40:26]

Like the rice, the outer part of the distribution of water, the river, the rice field, and the outer part of the water. Clear. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Right. Yes.

[41:36]

It also, you know, there's lots of examples of tea ladies asking monks for turning words. You know, if you can say something, I'll stay. Or if you can say something, I'll let you have your tea for free or whatever, you know. So, so she's, it's another, come on, come on, you know. Show me what you've learned. Show me your, your Buddha nature, whatever. So you had your hand up. I think that they are I don't know, maybe this is just my view, but I don't think so. I think that they're very much respected by people that can see. And then what happens sometimes is that people who can't see don't respect them. Like these monks didn't see her very clearly.

[42:40]

And we don't know what happened after she poured their tea and went out. Maybe they finally kind of got it. But I don't know. We should stop soon because it's break time. Go ahead, we'll finish up. You know, they certainly seem like they're caught in their arrogance and that she snags them all along with looking at not being able to see clearly, they continually attach themselves at the table where they're not even able to drink the tea because they get smacked. When she throws another they get smacked again and they're not able to let go of whether they're good or bad or, you know, they have miraculous power or they, you know, they get caught again.

[43:45]

And I don't even know at that point they were even, they even couldn't see it. It sounded, you know, because they were, she was saying, As an old tea lady, let me show you my maracas now. Basically, yeah. Yeah. And then that's when she poured the tea. Yeah. And that was good. I see. And she just sort of left it at that. Yeah. If you don't get it, you know, sit on it for the whole thing. Yeah. I know that this is hard. You need a bit of compassion. Like she was saying that at the end. Peter, then let's stop. Also possible, I hope this is right, to give them more benefit of the doubt. The tone may have been very different. It may have begun innocently. And whichever one of the three was having a dialogue may have realized very quickly, ooh.

[44:49]

And it may have been, oh, let's see fragrance, smell, where do you live? So it may have been much more peers. That's right, that could be. Let's play, yeah. And maybe when she went out after pouring the tea it was like, whoo, she was hot. Right, that's right, that's right. Well that's entirely possible and it may be that the miraculous powers won, they just, she won. They could not meet that Oh, thank you, Prince. People recognize that you are a Christian, so they recognize that you're a Christian. But she doesn't think that's flattering. Because she's cooked. Is that what you're saying? I don't know the cook, but I just like, like, you know, people know like the distinction

[45:55]

But I hear that it's very intimate with the land, and that's also a part of it, too. Well, they feel that intimacy. They think they do. That's just saying it's not it. We can. I wasn't planning to. I was going to... Or I could ask my question. Alright. I've been assuming that she picked up the cups and poured the tea and went out. She picked them up, she poured them, she gave them back to him and went out. But another way to see that is she picked up the cups, like put them on a tray, poured the tea, and left. And that really just hit me. Did any women say it that way? Yeah. Oh. I don't know. That's right.

[46:59]

That's right. So, it's... So, oops, that's right. So can we read this GACE 28 again? Can you sort of shift? Can we sort of exhale and leave this first tea lady? So whoever stopped, who read the last? Okay, so just continue on. Before Desjardins crossed the barrier from his native province, his mind burned in his mouth uttered bitter tears. Full of arrogance, he went south to exterminate the doctrine of a special transmission outside the city. When he reached the road to the shul, he sought to buy refreshments from an old woman.

[48:02]

The old woman said, I hear the banquets, he said, have mine, and I'll be glad. mind that your reverence would come to refresh?" Daishan was dumbfounded and unable to answer. He did not expire completely as he heard her telling her, but asked, "'Is there a teacher of Zen Buddhism in this neighborhood?' The old woman said, "'The priest, Lungtang, is about half a mile from here.'" Arriving at Lungtang's place, Daishan was utterly defeated. His earlier words certainly did not match his later ones. Long Tom disgraced himself and his compassion for his son. Finding a bit of live coal in the other, he took up muddy water and drenched him, destroying everything there was.

[49:08]

Leaving the matter to Spaffner. Okay, so let's take a break. It's almost 8.30 though, so can we just keep it like five minutes? Right, oh yes. We wanted to ask you to please fill out evaluations. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's good. Oh, but see, that's your miraculous power.

[50:23]

Can you read it? I actually... I think it was the original. Yeah, no, they're all right here. You won't get your fingers wet. That's impressive. You're very welcome. Actually, they're so similar, too. It's quite good. Isn't that what monks do? They have coffee. You know, I have been thinking about hiding things.

[51:34]

Well, I started Thank you. This is modern?

[53:01]

Yeah. But her experience is so much the same as this. compared to the monks who had a monastery up the hill, and they sat on their balconies in the sun, and studied their sutras. All these nuns were quite crazy. Oh, it was just a co-doctoral thesis that started out together. I heard her at the Sacerdida Conference I went to in Southern California. I heard her speak. And then there was like an article in the Turning Wheel or something or another that was like an excerpt.

[54:04]

Those women have a rough time. They have the right positions. Yeah, and they're worried that they're already getting mixed on other values. Did you notice that a lot of these were about Xiao Zhou, about Zhou Shu? Yeah. Yes. In fact, we have a lot of the records that we want to talk about. Last year, we were talking about Zhou Shu. I don't think so. Well, he got met a lot in these. Yeah, the commentaries, I think so.

[55:36]

I wonder, because it doesn't have any... So, the tiger. Could we just, let's all read this together, three times. We'll just basically chant it, no punctuation, just read it together three times. The tiger, it's the top of page 14. Once when Xiaozhu went out, he said to her, what would you do if you suddenly met a fierce tiger? She said, no, no punctuation. She said, nothing can impinge on my feelings. Zhaozhou made a spitting sound. She also made a spitting sound.

[56:59]

Zhaozhou said, there's still this. Once went out, he saw a woman hoeing a field. He said to her, what would you do if you suddenly met a fierce tiger? She said, nothing can impinge on my feelings. Zhaozhou made a spitting sound. She also made a, Xiaoxiao said, there's still this. Once when Xiaoxiao went out, he saw a woman hoeing a field. He said to her, what would you do if you suddenly met a fierce tiger? She said, nothing can impinge. Xiaoxiao made a spitting sound. She also made a spitting sound. Xiaoxiao said, there's still this. And I just have one question for you. What is this? So back to case 28. So let's read it one more time. Where did we end last time?

[58:01]

Me. Okay. I was the last one. Before Tashan crossed the barrier, His mind burned and his mouth uttered with bitterness. Full of arrogance, he went south to exterminate the doctrine of special transmission outside syndrome. When he reached the road of the town, he sought to buy refreshments from an old woman. The old woman said, Dushan said, note some commentaries on the Diamond Sutra. The old woman said, I hear the Diamond Sutra says, past mind cannot be grasped, present mind cannot be grasped, future mind cannot be grasped. Which mind does your reverence intend to refresh? Dushan was dumbfounded and unable to answer.

[59:07]

He did not expire completely under her words, however, but asked, is there a teacher of Zen Buddhism in this neighborhood? The old woman said the priest's lungtang is about half a mile from here. Arriving at Lungtang's place, Taishan was utterly defeated. His earlier work certainly did not match his later one. Lungtang disgraced himself and his compassion for his son. Finding a bit of live coal in the gutter, he took out muddy water and drenched him, destroying everything at once. Feeling the matter dispassionate, So what, what was this old lady saying to him? What was she doing for him? Yes. Anything else?

[60:14]

Showing is just fine. It's turning on itself. I mean, here he is, collecting all these things about the 9th Sutra. It's like, you study this and you don't get it. You're carrying around the raft on your back and it's actually drowning you under the water. It just gives it to him. Past mind cannot be grasped, present mind cannot be grasped. So what are you doing? It's kind of like the fifth ancestor. The person comes out of nowhere and just lays it all out for the person. And he's in the platform. You're talking about the sixth ancestor? Yeah. That's right. But the person who can kind of innocently come and say, oh, you mean, give them the whole doctrine in a nutshell, when they've been going around and going around and going around.

[61:31]

And that's what she did, showed them the futility of everything we've been doing. Yeah, anything else? It almost sounds too as if she might be making a point of just, he's already where it's going, it's supposed to be right here. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. He's intent on his trip. Instead of just having his refreshment. Uh-huh. Literally and figuratively, he's intent on his trip. Yeah. This is a very small point, but it's, she says, I hear that that music recites. She may very well, like many women, in those days, may not have been to read, may not have read it, may not have been allowed to read it. So she has taken the essence of it. That's right. But she knows emptiness. So if he were to say, you know, I'm carrying one of his notes on the Diamond Sutra, that would let her know

[62:42]

Is that right? I mean, just like if we were saying, what have you got? I've got the Koran. Say, ah, not a Christian. No, I don't. I don't think so. I mean, you know, what woke up the sixth ancestor was the Diamond Sutra. I mean, the Diamond Sutra is like the Heart Sutra. I don't know if you're familiar with it. It's nothing but no's. It's wonderful. It's great. But at any rate, it's a lot of no's. I was just wondering if you said that he was out to exterminate Zen. Right. Well, he was... Yeah, he... I mean, I would think of that as Zen. That's a debatable point. Well, that's true, too. Let's not go there. It's not so much the Diamond Sutra as the notes and commentaries.

[63:44]

Well, I think that the, you know, I think there is a, I've just been reading some critiques of this whole notion that Zen is a special transmission of the Sutra, and I think that these stories There are criticisms of both Longtan and Dushan arising out of this story. Because the next day after their encounter, Longtan apparently got up on the Dharma seat and praised Dushan to the skies. And Dushan went and got, which may have been a little premature, and Dushan went and got all of his notes and stuff and burned them. which was an overreaction. That's the criticism. And then Dushan left, which was also premature. So you have a great enlightenment experience.

[64:47]

You need to spend your time ripening it and coming to terms with it. And in fact, he went back to Longtan and did, in fact, study with him for 30 years. So he figured it out that maybe he had been a little hasty. But anyway, there's criticism of him for burning his notes, for overreacting. But it seems like that's very much in keeping with how he behaves throughout the co-op. You know, he's not taking the time to integrate with us. That's not his style. So to go and study with a lumped on for 30 years, that's, you know, Well, he said, you know, it says, too, though, but he was also, he said that arriving there, he was utterly defeated, and his earlier words didn't match his later ones. So something happened already, I think, was in the, and, yeah.

[65:48]

And I think that she got his attention. I think she made the crack, and then Wung Tan opened it up. But I think that she made the crack, and... It seems to suggest that he didn't expire all the way. It snuffed out a good hunk of his ego and didn't get the whole thing. Right, and then his earlier words didn't match his later ones, because he says he was arrogant and bitter, which is why I like that word, and he was going to exterminate the doctrine. Imagine him marching off. He's a fundamentalist. He's done all the scholarly stuff, and this kind of violence is going to exterminate the doctrine. which doesn't, he doesn't think, he thinks it's just completely without authorization, this kind of specialization, because he wants to rely on the written word.

[67:00]

It seems to me that he's, this is a very, this is very humorous. He did not expire completely under the word. He's still alive. His third teacher said he's got to go on and find somebody in the neighborhood that he can go and chastise or otherwise, you know, he really wants to exterminate this teaching. So he's still in his obsession. goes there. And here, Deschamps was utterly defeated. And by that, I think he was overwhelmed by his encounter with Deschamps. And you don't have the details there. But there he was. By being defeated, he was in his one track

[68:06]

Now he became known as somebody who could actually really learn from people. And there's another koan where he's an old abbot and he comes down with his bowls and the tenzo says, which is shui fang, tenzo says, what are you doing? The dinner's not ready yet. And he just turns and walks away. He doesn't justify himself or anything. And then yanto, Shui Feng's dharma brother says, oh, he didn't get it. And he goes and talks to him. And the abbot listens to him and then teaches differently from now on, which is never mind, right? But that's a whole other thing. But I'm just saying he became somebody who really was known for not needing to have the last word.

[69:15]

I thought that was kind of what he was saying, was when he was dumbfounded and unable to answer. It's like, oh. That's, yes. Let's get back to that. Well, yes, but what was she teaching him? What was she teaching him? We've talked about it some, but I think there's more to say about that. Yes. Could her... I mean, I've read the Diamond Sutra. I can't boil it down to a sentence, but could this be read as, she boiled it down to a sentence, and he's saying, oh, my God, all these commentaries he's studying, and she can't even read it, perhaps, someone said, and she's got it down in a sentence. Maybe. But the metaphor that here is burning, his mind burned, that's his intolerance and that's his burning of attachment, of passion for this, you know, his point of view and his mission. And then she, she maybe looks like

[70:22]

She threw some water on this burning vine, but she didn't put him out completely, and so he goes to John. and you still find something burning there. Well that's also, that's the way I've been at first. But there's some, he's still alive somehow. Yeah. What's your physical response to that? She says present mind cannot be grasped, past mind cannot be grasped, future mind cannot be grasped. What mind do you come here with? What happens to you? It's the same as the other lady.

[71:37]

It's like, show me. You're standing right now. I haven't read these other things, but what's interesting, based on two, you know, because we're so used to reading these cases and our students go to the master. It's like, I know what I'm stepping up to now. I'm stepping into the deep water. I've got my question for you. I know you're going to nail me, but let's go. And here these guys are on their way somewhere else, and a nobody. And nobody says, show me your face. Right. It's in their face. Where are you right now? That's right. Please show me your understanding right now, smart company. Yeah. That's right. And that seems to be their role. That's right. That's right. That's right. They just put emptiness right there. Nice that you're on this big mission. They also, it seems to me, they're saying, get out of your head. Get in your body. What is going on here? And when he's so proud of it, he said, she says that to him. And he said, oh, oh, is there a teacher around here?

[72:41]

I mean, he hasn't even seen her. No, it says he was dumbfounded. So I think, I think he, she got through to him. Yeah. I mean, he doesn't see her. Ah, yes. Right. Right. I thought maybe he would sort of say, Are you? Yeah, will you teach me? Oh, really? I think it's a very interesting question, you know, like, you know, I don't know if there's another koan that has, that there are teachers in Buddhism in this neighborhood, and this dialogue with a woman is really interesting. And then she goes back to the original story, like what he had told her about where he was headed. He doesn't ask her, he doesn't tell her where he's headed.

[73:44]

He just asked for refreshments. So she doesn't know. He could have responded that way, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but he didn't, he couldn't do that. He was, he was up here. Yeah, he could have just, he could have said, I want some tea. The mind of tea. Well, it really seems like that, you know, she cracked him open there and was willing at that moment of revelation And, you know, when he did go and talk to Leung Tan, he wasn't that confrontational.

[74:55]

I mean, he did this number of, I don't see a dragon, I don't see a pond. And then Leung Tan said, you see Leung Tan. And that was, oh, okay. And then they talked. And he asked earnest questions and so on. So he was no longer on the attack. Oh, there's lots more to this. But I mean, I don't want to, we're not talking about Dushan and Lung Tan. We're talking about her. I mean, but please read it. It's case 28. And the gateless barrier, the gateless, Aiken's one is called the gateless barrier. And it's the Mu Man Khan. So this is just a little section. Yeah. It was just that moment of being the Omba. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to talk about the tea ladies some other time at Dushanbe. Why should the tea lady be the great teacher rather than the teacher?

[75:58]

Why can't it? Why indeed? Because we need the institution. The commentary and notes and the text and the study of the Dharma and all that? Well, it was a very patriarchal system. And we don't know. There were women that had many students. But we don't know very much about them. Though we did hear some about some of them last week from Grace. But these women we don't hear about. Right. Well, you know what's so important about the tea ladies is that, you know, they usually have them as an old woman. And this is such an archaic You know, where the old woman comes along and cracks you up. And that's why it's just so painful. You would suspect, you know, you would see somebody on the path and you would think that they were just this old woman, but everybody knows that they're just an old woman.

[77:03]

Oh, it's a folk tales and so on. Yeah. So the crown is very seen as very powerful. A postmenopausal woman is, you know. Oh, I think we should stop with all this. You know, there's lots. It's just, you know, this was great. There's there's more. I mean, your point about that. powerful they are is also how worthless they are. I mean, it's just an old lady. It's just an old lady. So that's why the shock was so great. Worthless old lady. But also, since they were post-menopausal, presumably, they were freer. Right. Yeah. So we should stop. Really, we should stop.

[78:00]

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