I have to. Thank you. Good morning. I wanted to talk about money. Do I have everybody's attention?

[01:04]

Can you hear me? Part of the reason I want to talk about it, well, I'll get to that in a minute. At the moment I'm leading up to arriving here. I was feeling both terrified and exhilarated, really celebratory. Terrified on the one hand because I react and have turmoil and fear and confusion around the idea of money. and exhilarated because this is such a wonderful opportunity to deconstruct that, to share with each other about this, and to bring forth the really poignant ways in which this issue illustrates the basic truths of Buddhism. So why am I thinking about this? As board president, most of you in the room know actually that we've spent a lot of time and energy in the last year

[02:08]

trying to generate additional resources to take care of our center, to help support the teachers, and it seems like that's the kind of thing we want to do, and yet it does raise the question of, well, how are we going to make that happen? And that question, as formulated in that way, doesn't seem to take us to the right place. So I'm kind of wanting to ask a different question, and in fact, I'm not really wanting to spend a lot of time today talking to myself, but I'm wanting to sort of really make a space for all of us to interact around this question of what it means to us, what money brings up for us. So I wanted to make a few remarks. And then I wanted to kind of open up the discussion as soon as I can get through what seems to me to be useful to bring up at the outset.

[03:19]

I'd actually like to read something from a lecture by Suzuki Roshi that was given in 1970 and published in the Windmill in 1988. It's an interesting talk. It's rather short, as presented here. But I'm just going to read a little bit of it. But he says, money is not a symbol, but money expresses the value of things which change. If things are valuable because we can eat them or live on them, then the flow of money should not stop. If money stops flowing, that causes a business depression, and I suppose other kinds of depression as well. If money is going slowly all over our society, then our society is healthy. So money purifies our world. It is not something dirty. It is very pure. It is a very important thing for us when we take care of it and respect it. Because you don't pay enough respect to money, the money becomes dirty.

[04:22]

It doesn't matter how much money you have. Even if the money you have is very little, you should pay respect to it and you should make the best use of it. How you can make the best use of it is to make it help our society. And I also wanted to refer to another source. If you take one of these and you fold it face forward like this in half, sort of in half, and you look at the back, there's two words. It says, we trust. And this illustrates the intrinsic nature of money, obviously, that it's something that embodies a really pervasive and deep sense of trust between people, because we depend on it. If that trust wasn't there, you know, it would disappear, basically, as a phenomenon in our life.

[05:29]

Whether you think of it as an object or a concept, whether it's paper or digital, it all embodies the same kind of trust. So the kinds of questions I have this morning are, one, how is it that something which in itself embodies this really pervasive trust. How is it that that is for us a kind of a source of confusion and pain and fear and separation from one another? And then there's another question I have which I want to come back to later. which is that how is it that something which embodies such pain and confusion and fear and separation for us is also, can also, how is that possibly also the source of greater intimacy and connection and trust between us?

[06:41]

So I think there's a couple of ways to come back to the first question There's a couple of ways in which that happens. One is, in myself, I know there are ways in which I generate my own sense of confusion and fear around it. And there are ways in which we co-create that same phenomenon in each other, in a kind of collective way. So for me, you know, bringing up something that has to do with asking, bringing up something that has to do with asking other people to stretch in ways that I'm not sure I'm willing to stretch, or I keep telling myself I have to have the perfect answer, I keep telling myself,

[07:44]

that what really matters to me that I can't really share that with other people and so in that way I create a barrier of fear around talking about issues that are connected with money and that kind of pattern might be true for other people and other kinds of things might be true for other people for each of you but As we think in that way, we are also aware and sensitive to how others think in the same way. And we try not to cause pain for each other. You know, if I bring this up, maybe this will be painful for somebody. I won't bring it up. If I think in some way that Somebody's going to bring it up to me. I'll find a way to avoid meeting that person in whatever.

[08:53]

So there gets to be, it becomes, in a way, we create a kind of taboo subject around it. There are other suspects that behave in this way, as you know, the issues of power and sex are a similar dynamic. But today we're talking about money, and I want to open this up for us to reveal what it is that would be hard for us. I would like to reveal what it's hard for me to share with you. And I would like you, if you're willing, to help each of us understand what it is about this that is significant for you.

[10:00]

So what's hard for me is the sense of isolation, the sense that I have only myself to depend on and that I can't depend on others and I can't ask others to help me. And I know that that sense contributes to how we are resistant with each other around these issues. And I also know that there is a possibility that we can be honest with each other and do so in a way in which we are caring for each other with compassion. So, I think I've made it clear that I'm not trying to to engage us in a kind of brainstorming session about how to solve a problem.

[11:11]

But I do know, the reason I say that is that I do know that when difficult topics come up, that is often where we like to go. We like to figure out what the problem is and then offer a solution. that might be a good place to talk at some point but at the moment I'm feeling I'm feeling hesitant, really hesitant to talk about solutions because I'm wanting to hear what people are really wanting that is connected with money and it doesn't have to necessarily, whatever anybody has to offer doesn't have to come from their experience or thoughts about the Zen Center necessarily. I'm just wanting to make the space available for us to hear each other. So with that, I'm going to call on Ross. I'm curious about your thought on isolation.

[12:19]

I'm wondering if it's as simple as two people are together and one person is Yeah, I think this is an opportunity just to create, co-create, more of a shared understanding and experience about this. And as you're right, there are manifold ways in which we talk to ourselves about this, which are sort of self-isolating, and again, of course, create that shared sense of separation. Yes? So you're saying when it comes up, there are feelings you have about things, and you start to tell yourself that those aren't good feelings.

[13:33]

I'm glad you brought that up, because something else I wanted to say in opening this discussion is that I want to invite us to hold whatever thoughts and feelings we have around this as independent from our judgments of good and bad, right and wrong. Because very quickly when we start thinking about this we go into some judgments about it. And so I really want to invite you and encourage you to kind of just see if you can hold that lightly or even let those things go a little bit as we open this up. Because We all have very good reasons for feeling and acting the way we do. And they have nothing to do with whether they're right or wrong. That's my belief.

[14:36]

So I want to make this an opportunity in that way. Yes? So you really enjoyed being able to do that? Okay, so there are several reasons why that worked for you. Can I say what you think?

[16:04]

So Judy, how is that working for you? It's working okay. It's just that I'm just throwing that out there. Yeah, so you're taking care of your money in the best way you know how. Good. for lots of people in this society, so that I can feel that when I appear in a room, to many people, I appear as someone who, if I have any money at all, it should be given away to someone else.

[17:55]

So I'm aware of that, but, so I guess, I'm just going back when I feel the need, not to just hand it over. Right. You're just feeling the care of your... In that moment, your need is more about self-care and just taking care of things. That's right. And I'm really, as I say, I'm really aware that there aren't other people out there who are prepared to step in and provide for me or, you know, the government is coming back and all. I think that enough is said. Because it's both something that we can count, a countable noun, say one, two, three, and it's also an uncountable noun. It's an uncountable and amorphous concept. And because of that, it can collect other things that are similar to it.

[18:59]

Other things that are similar to it get stuck to it, like other kinds of security. It gets conflated with army promotional security. Right. When I'm feeling isolated in my life, I often project all of that isolation and all of that lack of security onto my fears about money. And generally speaking, when I walk into this room or walk into San Francisco Dental Center, it just washes away. Sorry. But because in money and mother, there's something about those two words in the first two letters, that it's like there's a way that money comes to substitute as a way of upholding oneself. And in a world that's becoming much more isolated and more people are more isolated, it's easier to do.

[20:08]

But when outside of the Sangha, it's very easy to do. I feel that I can't trust that things will work out for me unless I have a certain amount of money. So the money as a means of access to the resources that support you, food and shelter. It's a way of paying for Congress. Yeah, yeah, it's just, you know, it's like, it quickly becomes this symbolic survival sort of issue. And then, as you say, it gets projected into other areas of self-image or self-preservation. Because if you live in a community like this, people are taking up different jobs. And if you're not, then you're paying for those things to happen. I want to read something from Suzuki Roshi's lecture about that.

[21:12]

I don't know if this will appear out of context, but I think it's interesting. You pay for the labor and for the things which were given to us by God or by Buddha, whichever accords with the understanding. Only when we have this kind of understanding of things will our economic system change. I'm not an economist, but I feel in that way. Of course labor is important, but labor will make sense when you work on things with respect. That should be the true nature of labor. But only to count labor without having a deep respect for the things that are given is a big mistake. So when we work on things with respect, that is our human life in the truest sense. You pay with You pay with respect for the work done on things. Money is exchanged for the value of things and labor, as you know, but behind money there is respect for the material things which are given to us by Buddha.

[22:20]

So he's sort of saying that to simply think you can pay for something is not enough. It doesn't recognize the real relationship that's taking place between you and the other person. Yes, Ko? Yeah.

[23:36]

Yes. If I support you by doing something, somehow I'll be supported. Right. Now, I try to use money as little as possible.

[24:39]

I try to get as much direct resource. So you really enjoy the kind of direct exchange of resources, except for avoiding the intermediary, without using that tool, which is sort of standing, as you say. Right. And I think there's many ways Yeah, yeah, or burdened in some way. There's also a, I don't want to kind of drift off in this direction too much, but in terms of the ways in which that exchange takes place, that exchange of money takes place sometimes.

[25:43]

I've heard many anecdotes, and I know in my heart of hearts that it's true, that when you ask somebody for help, that when it's a deeply heartfelt request that it's really a gift to that person. And I don't want to go off in that direction too far, but I wanted to bring up that point as we were talking just now. Thank you. Yes, Linda. When you started this morning saying, I'm going to talk about the money, I immediately had a sort of bolt of red and worry. It had to do with everything you've talked about, but specifically with the fact that I noticed there were a lot of people at Zazen Instruction this morning. And I thought, oh, there's a lot of new people here. And oh, God, what kind of impression are they going to get?

[26:45]

You know, in the formal lecture they're attending, the president of the board is sitting for me, memories of San Francisco Zen Center and how I got increasingly comfortable with the constant appeals and pitches and acquisitions and very sensitive to something I treasure in the practice and the community, getting dirty or associated with the kind of soft-spoken, nice-sounding greed. which is to say something about what this topic that we're discussing today has to do with the simple intimate practice of following our breath.

[27:45]

It has to do with the way in which we believe or not believe in the story that we have a separate existence from other people. because the internal reactions we have, that all of us have been describing this morning, tend to generate thoughts that I am separate, I need to look after myself, I need to guard myself, I cannot trust, I cannot let down a and in one way or another that will, in my experience, will interfere with simply sitting quietly.

[28:53]

to exchange harder. The idea that you can steal some trust that you're exchanging value. And I'm thinking how that would apply to Zen practice, because it's ultimately a cost-benefit analysis, as the business school was talking about. You spend something, you're connected with something. So if I'm hearing you right, it's that you're suggesting some ways to approach interacting, which don't necessarily support the kind of thinking that would lead to a sense of isolation or separateness.

[30:48]

You can do that without involving money. Yes, Jerry. Is there somebody over here? Oh, yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, you had raised your hand a little while ago, I remember. Go ahead. I find that I struggle with the relationship between time and money. It's been so, in America, there's a strong hundred, and there's not as many. I've been wanting to leave my job because of the hours and lessons we learned. I found that no matter how much I tried to change my thoughts and So you're having trouble trusting that you'd like to be able to trust that when you take a job, whatever it is you have to contribute in a way that's sustainable for you, that that's enough.

[32:31]

You'd like to be able to trust that. I can see that. Maybe you can just trust them. If they offer you that, they must know that you're worth it, so to speak. Jerry? I was thinking about how I related to giving money for dealing with love. I was thinking about the way I relate to giving money for dealing with money. I was fortunate enough for most of my adult life to work a lot in a profession that was generous. And also I had a family and I was very busy. And one way, and I felt that I wasn't able to participate in many things in a way that I might in terms of my volunteering of my time or being connected to causes that I believed in, other people that I wanted to help.

[33:49]

I couldn't give of myself in my time. But I could give money. And so for me money was a way to actually express an interconnectedness and a support. And it made me feel better. You enjoyed contributing. what can I do here? Something's going on in the world, I'm upset about it, or something good is happening in the world and I really wish I could go there and do something, but I can't. So it was a way for me to make that connection in a way that then felt actually satisfying. And then took care of any guilt I might have. Not all of it, but just some of it. Well, there are several loops that we do around us, but I can see that that was a way for you to express that connection and contribute to something you care about.

[34:52]

Yes, it was a way to represent caring. Oh, symbolic of things other than what it actually gets used for.

[37:00]

Is that what you mean? Yes. So, it's part of this mechanism, I think, of really turning us into objects where I am cut off from myself. Which is me. And I'm hearing that that's another way of actually believing that you have a separate self. Catherine? Not too long ago, a friend of mine had a pretty serious financial crisis. And I was aware in joining his method that because of her isolation she didn't have very many people in her life where this kind of flow that I was talking about was taking place in a natural and easy way like it does in a family with parents and children.

[38:24]

And I was aware as I was sort of dealing with her that That I have social resources that she doesn't have. That I have, in a way, inside a circle of sharing and a flow of sharing that includes more people. And that that's a form of wealth that I have. Aside from being able to give to those people. Right. It includes other kinds of resources. I've been thinking about where we all draw the line, that circle, within which we share what we have, in that natural, common way. when I need something or in terms of the way that I give.

[39:42]

And also not too long ago, my income was pretty low, much lower than it is now. And I would get these appeals for funds, these telephone calls. And my feeling of that then was, I really want to, but there was a feeling of defensiveness. So did you feel when you got the call that you couldn't actually say to the person, you know, I really would like to give you money? Well, I did say that, but there was also a feeling in me of, uh-uh, I have to take care of myself, I'm a single woman, I... So then under those circumstances the best way you could figure out how to deal with it was to say no? Yeah, but there was a feeling of anxiety. It had an edge. It had an edge. Was there a thought connected with that? We're getting close.

[40:45]

I want to say that I haven't been tracking very well the number of people who have been raising their hands and actually we're coming to the end and I would very much like to invite Sojin to say anything if you would like to say something. But I was thinking that if... So... So, that's okay.

[43:20]

That's good. You'll make it. That's kind of what came to me. Is it time? Thank you. Yes.

[43:38]

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