So should the worst people sit close to you? That's how bad therapy gets the next time. When we enter the Zen Dome, we bow. And when we bow, we put our fingers together like this, and thumbs. And put our hands together like this, with the thumbs in, and the fingertips at the bottom of the nose, and out about 10 inches. And we don't crochet elbows. Some people do, but we don't do that. We just do pumpkin. And then you bow at the waist. Not too much. We don't want people bowing like this.

[01:03]

We don't want people bowing like this. You want people to come in so we can get people off the porch? I haven't done it in this building yet, so I don't know if you can say that. I'm saying that at the end of the Zen Dome, we bow at the porch. So you come into the Zen Dome, and if you're going to sit on this side, you bow in this corner. And if you're going to sit on this side, you bow in the middle. And if you're not sure where you're going to sit, just ask. So after we bow, we walk to our seat.

[02:07]

When we walk in the Zen Dome, or stand in the Zen Dome, we put our hands in what we call Shashu, which is to fold the fingers of the left hand around the thumb. And the right hand goes like this, with the thumb on top. And then you hold your hands right at the skin indentation. If you're a girl, I think it's different, but depending on your size and shape. And with your arms curled up, not like this, but like this. The extreme way is like this, but we don't do that. We just do this way. And then when you walk, you walk quietly into the Zen Dome, without rushing, and take a seat. For new people, it's good to sit in the back of the Zen Dome. And experienced people should sit in front of the Zen Dome.

[03:13]

And if you sit in the back of the Zen Dome, you can watch how people act, and then that way you learn how to act in the Zen Dome. Do you want us to tell new people that? Yes. So then, after bowing, put our hands in Shashu, and walk to our seat. And then when we approach the seat, we bow to the seat. Then we turn around to the right. And bow outward. Turning to the right means that you don't want other people turning to the left. So everybody turns the same way. And then, when you sit down, you sit backwards.

[04:21]

Yeah, I can't sit in this, it's too high. I'm not used to sitting on anything this high. Or go back to the high seat. Yeah. Hahaha. And when you sit down, don't put your feet on the elbow. This is the place, this is Buddha's tongue. We don't step on Buddha's tongue. You put your heel like this. Or something similar to that. Then, I say, there are different ways to cross your legs.

[05:28]

I'm going to show them all the ways. But I say, this is the lowest posture. You don't have to do this. Huh? Oh yeah. I don't want you to think you should do this, but this is the most extreme posture. So I start out with the most extreme posture. I say, don't do this. Even though you may be able to do it, you can't. You should choose a posture that you can hold for 40 minutes. That's more important. I can't demonstrate the full lotus though. Well, you do what you can. Yeah. And then, There's a picture of it in the community room. Everybody knows, I think. Yeah, everybody knows it there. Yeah, anyway. Notice that this is the half lotus.

[06:30]

The left foot on the right thigh. And then, this is the quarter lotus with the left foot on the calf. And then, this is the Burmese position with no crossing. And then this is campfire style. And if you start out with the campfire style, your knees won't go down, which is okay. Continue to sit that way. If you can't sit in any other way, if you can't sit cross-legged, then you can do Seiza. And then I show them how to do Seiza. But I say, don't do Seiza just because your legs hurt. Because your body has to get used to this position.

[07:34]

And if you never sit with your legs crossed, you'll never be able to work yourself into the position. So, Seiza is only for an extreme case where you can't sit otherwise. I don't say you should do this because it hurts. Yes? I have two questions. One is, in half lotus, I switch my legs personally because I don't want one hip to get out of whack. But I know that the directions are for the left leg. It's okay to switch. But I think it's good to transmit that the left leg goes up on the right. And then after they've been sitting for... After they've passed the stage where they can sit, then they can change it around. But I would just keep doing it because then you never get to the point where you can sit.

[08:35]

Or, you know, sit through. So, you know, I mean, every yoga teacher I've ever heard has said that it's not good for you to sit with one, always with the same leg up. So you don't agree, you don't feel like it's any problem. No, I really don't. It's never hurt me. And it may have hurt somebody, you know. I'm not saying you can't do that. I'm just saying... Oh, it's what you want to teach. You're telling us what you want us to transmit, though. Yes, and I'm saying that to sit with one in this position until you feel comfortable in that position and can sit... In that position. In that position, well, then you can change. That makes sense. I understand. My other question is when someone's knees do not touch the ground, you once told me don't encourage them to put support cushions under the knees. Otherwise the knees will never go down. Don't teach that. There's some people...

[09:42]

Some people have some instructions, but just their legs are literally like this when they're trying to cross. That's okay. You know, I started out sitting like this, right? And then gradually, every time I'd sit, it would be a little bit more, you know? And if I didn't do that, my knees would never go down. I'd just be sitting with support cushions. So, it's like... We teach this, and then if people can't do it, then they can have support cushions. But you have to make the effort first to just kind of, you know? We get to where we're sitting in Paschena style or something. Which is okay, but it's not... Can we encourage people to put a support cushion under the zafu? Oh, absolutely. And then if they turn their pelvis by getting their butt up, their knees tend to kind of go down a little bit.

[10:42]

I always tell people. See, when I give those instructions, everybody's sitting down at this point, right? And then people who are like this, you know? I give them a big, you know, bunch of support cushions. Because the waist should be higher than the knees. Even if you're sitting like this, your waist should be higher than your knees. Otherwise, you can't get your back straight. So, I go around and I take the support cushions and I put them under all these people. So, if they're sitting up high... And some people are even too zafulous. But these are really high zafulous, you know? The newer ones are, yeah. Most of these are really big and hard. So, one usually suffices, but a couple of support cushions really helps. And is it okay to go around not only offering cushions, but adjusting posture as we go along? Well, as we go along, yeah. You're getting ahead of me. I'm sorry. I have a question about if there's a... What's the choice between campfire and Cezanne? Well, campfire, at least your ankles are crossed. You're in the crossed position.

[11:47]

So, you prefer that? Oh, absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. So, can you say why you prefer that? Because it's cross-legged. But because... It's the beginning of walking. This is how you walk. And then, when you catch the lotus, you're running. So, this is how you walk. This is how you start out. You know, baby step. And it's campfire. That's fine. No problem. But it's also more... I mean, ideally, a full lotus is the most balanced... A full lotus is the most stable position. The most stable position. So, you have a triangle. This triangle position, behind the knees, is the most stable position. So, we try to get people into this stable position. But this is the beginning, you know. It's stable, this way, because you have your feet down here. But it's not... You don't want to sit this way forever.

[12:49]

This is just the beginning. Until you get used to sitting. And then, you can put one foot up here. Then the knees go down. Or one of the knees go down. But, sitting like this, you know, little by little, the knees go down. And then, pretty soon, you want to do this. Because your leg... And then, after a while, your leg just naturally wants to do this. And then, after a while, your leg wants to do that. So, you should wait for that. Not push it. Although, it's okay to push a little bit. It's okay to push yourself and see what your limits are. And then, come back to what's possible. And not to compare yourself with other people. Everybody starts out in a different position. So, that's very important. Yes? Two questions. One is, the left over is... If people can't do that, or their one leg is more limber... The reason that form is in place is to bring the passive over the active, right?

[13:53]

Just like the... I don't think we have to give reasons. But, what if someone can get into, like, quarter lotus with... Or, Burmese, with one in front, and they can't with the other one in front? Then it's better to do the one in the back, isn't it? Maybe. Maybe. But, like, suppose my right arm is stronger than my left arm. Then I should probably exercise my left arm to get it to be as strong as my right arm. So, either argument, you know. Your argument will go either way. So, you know, when you start doing this, your body's awkward. You know? And you say, oh God, I can't do that, you know. I can do this more easily. Well, sure, that's true. But try this. I mean, we have to hold the framework. We have to hold the frame for them. They're going to push against it, kind of. That's right. We have to put them into this position. And if you keep accommodating to everybody, then, you know, you have everybody sitting up there to say stuff. I didn't realize which leg was up.

[14:56]

I mean, I knew that in Dogon, in Fudan Zengi, it says the left leg, but I just thought that was sort of just... Well, we were always taught, since we were very adamant about it, the left leg was on the right. And why? Because that's the way we do it. We never give you reasons for things. We only want reasons, you know. Just do this, just do it. We don't understand this. What's transmitted to Suzuki Roshi's disciples is, just do it, you know. Never mind reasons. Just do it, you know. Just follow. I never even heard that about the left, myself. In my years at Sensei. But then, also, it's okay to change. So, first learn to do it this way. Then you can do it that way. Then you can see the difference. In Zazen Instruction Orientation, we also tell about the temple.

[15:57]

And I'm wondering if we give the Zazen Instruction part first, then people can maybe, as their legs, they might lift up as we go into the Shifu about the history of our place, and who you are, and what we do. Because there is some time that we spend on non-Zazen stuff there. So, get the sitting part first. Yeah, just Zazen. And then anything else you say about the temple is extra. Some of us don't get very far in that. I can tell you, I don't. Then people are late. Anyway, I don't know about the other part. I mean, what I do, well, what I do is the Zazen Instruction, and then I say, are there any questions at the end? And then you can talk about whatever the questions are, and you can talk about the temple, and stuff like that. Right. Okay. I mean, that's what I do. But anyway, I want to keep these two kinds of the Zazen Instructions. They were just started. So, yes.

[16:59]

What do you say if someone asks, why isn't it good enough to sit in Seiza? Why isn't it? What's wrong? Seiza is not loving. So you can't meditate as well in Seiza? I'm not going to answer those kinds of questions. Because I'm just saying, this is what we... That's the answer. If you can sit in Seiza, I do. If you can't sit any other way, that's okay. But... Our effort is to sit cross-legged. So, I show them those leg positions, right? And then I say, well, take the position that is most comfortable. You can do the easiest. Don't take a position that, because he's sitting in full lotus, you think you have to. Or because he's sitting in half lotus, or because she's sitting in quarter lotus,

[18:00]

that you have to do that. Take the position that's most... that's easiest for you, that you can sit the longest. So that's what I tell people. I don't demand that they sit in some extreme position. So, cross the legs. However many of you want to cross. I say, put your hands in knees. This way. And you sway over to the right. As far as you can go. Then you sway over to the left. As far as you can go. You do it slowly, not quickly. And each time, a little less. Until finally, you're sitting up straight. I do various other exercises too, like this one. And I also do this.

[19:02]

Which is really good for the back. But I don't tell them all that. I just say, sway like that. I might tell them that if I was doing Zazen instruction. This is something I developed after that. And then, I say... When you should sit in a straight posture to line up your vertebrae. And I say, lean forward like this. Arching your back. Not like that. Like this. Arching your back. And then slowly, sit up straight. Your head is on top of your spine. And then you move your chin down. So that you're not sitting up, looking up that way. The head is down, looking a little downward. From straight ahead. The back stretched.

[20:06]

And the neck rotated. Not like this. If I say, put your head... Rotate your head forward a little. So you want to avoid that. You want to keep the head on top of the spine. The ears are in line with the neck and the shoulders. And the nose is in line with the navel. And visualize that. With the back. Straight. Now, the natural curve of the back. The small one, is like that. It's not like that. Some people can't sit this way. You may have to sit that way. It's okay. But I teach people to sit with... To accentuate the curve of the back. Because that takes the strain off of your... Lower vertebrae. Off of the cockates. On the bottom of your spine. Puts the weight on your legs. And then there's this feeling of flexibility here. Like a rubber ball. And you can push into that.

[21:07]

And it feels very... Buffery. And then keep the head on top of the spine. Because the head is this big weight. Maybe 10-15 pounds on top of your shoulders. And if it's forward, then it makes it hard on your back. To keep your... To keep it up there. So... You want the nose to be in line with the navel. So that you're not... Leaning from one side to the other. And the ears in line with the shoulders. So you're not leaning forward or back. And then... With your fingers and thumbs together. Or at least your fingers together. You put the left palm inside of the right palm. It's then they start teaching you can do it with your hand. But... Put the left palm inside of the right palm. And I say to put the middle finger...

[22:11]

The tip of the middle finger in the center of your right palm. And then... With your thumbs you form a circle. So the tops of your thumbs are facing each other. Very lightly touching. And then you put your hands up against your abdomen. Do your middle fingers still reach to the center? Because now my... Once I put my thumbs together... My fingers... Not mine. Oh. Huh. I've learned to put the knuckle of the left finger on top of the... Well that's another way to think about it. To line up your knuckles. That may be a little more accurate in some way. But if you line up your knuckles... Then your finger goes in the center of your palm. So you can do it either way. Line up the joints of your fingers. And then... And then put the... In the center of your palm. It's not exactly in the center. From the bottom up. Up. And then... You hold your elbows out.

[23:11]

So that it feels like there's an egg... Underneath each armpit. And if you... Pull your... Elbows in... You crack the eggs. So you should keep... You shouldn't clutch your body like that. But keep your elbows out. And you can... Touch your foot. If your foot is up here. With the bottom of your hand. But not to lean on it like that. Some people hold the mudra up here. But I think they're quite comfortable. Down at your heart. And touching your foot. The bottom of your foot. And... This is the basic posture. And this is called the Cosmic Mudra. You have the whole universe inside there.

[24:15]

Then... You put your... Well, before you do that... I said... Then... Well, I'll do this. You put your teeth together. The front teeth overlapping the... The top overlapping the bottom. In a natural position. You're trying to do something. But naturally they go that way. I used to say... And then the teeth in the back of your mouth... Are touching each other. But sometimes we don't have teeth in the back of our mouth. I have less teeth in the back of my mouth now. So I can't say that. And your tongue... Is clinging to the roof of your mouth. With the tip of your tongue just behind your teeth. And that's the natural position. And then you breathe naturally through your nose.

[25:21]

But when you breathe... You should breathe... The breath should reach to your lower abdomen. To what it feels like. Your lower abdomen. The bottom of your lungs. So when you inhale... Your abdomen expands. And when you exhale... Your abdomen contracts. And so I usually ask people... Where are you breathing? Well, I don't know. Here. So when people are breathing up here... I tell them to make some effort to bring their breath down... To here. So their breathing should always be deep. And I say this is the way to prime your breath. Put your hands this way. And take a deep breath through your mouth. Like... Closing your back. And open up your aura. And then... You contract your...

[26:24]

So that your front tummy and your back don't go like this. And then once more. Silently, of course. Sound for emphasis. And... You do that two or three times. And then you breathe in. And you prime. And then you just breathe through your nose. Put your hands... Breathe naturally through your nose. But down here. So you should always be aware of keeping your breath down here. Mark? Suzuki Roshi said in his instruction... You know when you're breathing in... You should make some effort to push that... Push it down. Yeah. Kunshu. He always talked about putting effort into your aura. Here. But... That's extra. You can do that if you find that...

[27:27]

It's a good way actually to keep the breath... Primed. Because when you exhale... You put some effort into the exhale. Down here. And then naturally inhale. Wow. We'll show you this. And then... But you don't have to do that all the time. That's a good way... If you lose your breath. Or your breath is rough. Or you want to concentrate on it. Or you're having a hard time in zazen. Then... On the exhale. That's good. So... Then we're sitting... With the mudra. The thumbs are very lightly touching. This is not... This is... When this happens... You know that you're having a hard time. Too much effort. Too much...

[28:28]

Tension in your body. So... And this means there's... Too much tension. You're falling asleep. But jazzing up. So... Do you... Always have to... Hold your mudra up with your arms? No. He said you can touch your foot. Those are... Hard to rest. You don't have your foot up there. Yeah. Well... I think there's a kind of place where... You... You let your... Your... Body has touch. And then... Let... Somehow... You let go. So that the... The energy is going this way. You've... You've come to a compromise position. And... You're not leaning. But it is... But there's no... Effort in it. There's no... Strain in it. So... It's good to find that position. I can feel it now. But...

[29:28]

There's no... Strain in my arms at all. And yet... It's touching. But it's not... Leaning. And so... As a matter of fact... We're all very exhausted... To find these balances. Because there are... There are various... Triangles... And... And rectangles... That... Are... In conjunction with each other. And this is a... A triangle here. And... To balance that triangle... And then there's... This rectangle. And that has to be... Balanced... With this triangle. Then there's this ball. Which has to be... Balanced on top of this... Rectangle. Then there's this triangle. Which everything rests on. So... What you're doing... Is balancing... These forces. So... And you get to the point where... The only effort...

[30:29]

Is in the lower back. That's why... The lower back support is so important. It's the only place where there's effort. The rest is just... Keeping the form... In a balanced way. And that's what you should be working... That's what you should be working toward all the time. How to balance... As soon as the head starts flying forward... Bring it back. You know... As soon as the... Movement starts getting tight... You loosen it up. As soon as it starts getting loose... You bring it back into form. So you're always... You keep going over... All the points of your body... During Zazen. Adjusting. Micromanaging. During Zazen. That's what you do. But... What about our eyes? That's a good point. The eyes... Ideally... Are supposed to be open. But... How open is... Up to you.

[31:32]

There's the half eye. And the quarter eye. And the full eye. And the closed eye. I tend to close my eyes and open them. I don't think anybody can just keep their eyes open... The whole time. But... We keep making an effort to... To keep the eyes open. And... When you look... You're looking at the wall. There's nothing special to look at. Don't pick out... You know... Some little spot... To focus on. Just let the eyes... Be open. But not necessarily focused. It's okay if they go out of focus. Just let eyes see. Just let hearing hear. Don't try to do anything. Just let feeling feel. Just let smelling smell. So that... There's totally openness. All the senses are open. But there's no... Volition... Attached to them. And so...

[32:35]

You may be looking at the wall... For 40 minutes. And sometimes you see it. And sometimes you don't. And then... There's the... The posture. I'm showing the posture. So we can assume the posture. And we keep going over all the points of the posture. Checking during Zazen. And making minor adjustments. Because the posture is always changing. And then... I'm putting the effort into the lower back. And... Balance of the parts of the body. You let go of all the tenseness... In the body. There's a difference between tension and tenseness. Tension is... What's necessary... To hold the structure together. Tenseness is... The energy that's extra. Like... You know... Tightening up. Blocking energy. So... To feel that...

[33:35]

Tenseness is draining out of your body. Just feel the tenseness draining out of your arms. Feel the tenseness draining out of your upper back. Feel the tenseness... You know... Draining out of... Your legs. That's a big one. But I don't go into that much detail. For Zazen instruction. But... You can if you want. It's important to feel... The tenseness draining out of your legs... When your legs are continually opening up. That's how you can sit with... The pain you have. Otherwise... You tend to clutch at the pain. And so... Zazen is the opposite. It's like letting go... Instead of clutching. So... It really goes against our natural instinct. Which is to... Clutch. Hold on to something. But there's nothing to hold on to. So... We tend to tighten up our muscles. Thinking... Not thinking anything but... You know... Because there's nothing else to hang on to.

[34:37]

And so that causes a lot of tenseness. So... As you feel... Pain... To... Open up. Instead of... Shut down. And there's a balance between opening up. It's not like... You welcome it. And open it. And then it becomes something else. You can welcome it. And then you still think of it as pain. And then it's... Then you still have a problem. Anyway... You can't... You have to experience all this thing. So... Do you... But in terms of... Like... There's this disjunction sometimes... I think for new people... Who... You know... You go to Zazen instruction... And if they don't mention pain at all... And then you go into the Zen Do... You know... You think you're the only one... Who feels like this... Just so... What do you recommend? I wonder what you say about... You can say... How do you... Do you have pain in your legs? Just say... If you have pain or something...

[35:39]

Well, you can say it any way you want. I might say... Do you have pain in your legs? Well, you always have some trouble in Zazen. I always say that. The pain... The pain... Is a... Associated with Zazen. So... We have to be able to... Accept... A certain amount of painfulness... In Zazen. And... Learn how to deal with that. And... But there's always a problem. Even if there's no pain... There's still some... You always have some problem. So... Dealing with the problem... Is part of Zazen. I tell them that. I just... Don't go into... You know... Into it. And then... Then we deal with the mind. Consciousness. During Zazen... We... Pay attention to posture...

[36:40]

And breathing. And... When we breathe... When we... When we... How we... Pay attention to breath... Is... We watch... The rising and falling of the lower abdomen. We don't watch the breath coming up through the nose... And... Coming down through the... But just the rising and falling of the lower abdomen. It's like a saw. When you saw a piece of wood... You don't watch the tip of the saw... As it goes back and forth... You just watch where the saw and the wood meet. So... I tell them that. Just... Watch the... Rising and... And... Falling of the lower abdomen. That's breath. And... To breathe naturally through the nose. And... Then... When... And so during Zazen... We keep coming back to...

[37:42]

Breath and posture. But posture is first. Breath is second. After you establish posture... Then you can start to... Pay attention to breathing. And then you go back and forth. Because you're going over the various points of the posture... And then you're also... Paying attention to breath. So... Breath is one of those points. But... There's a point where you can do both. You can be aware of posture... And aware of breath... And aware of the whole thing. And then sometimes you're aware of just one part. And when one part... When you're aware of your mudra... The mudra covers everything. And the rest is in the background. Or if you're just paying attention to the spine... Then the spine covers everything... And the rest is in the background. And then there's watching the whole thing. That's the foreground.

[38:42]

And then you go in and out. Both. Yeah. Plus... I never know what to say about the mudra. Like... What it means... Or the significance of the mudra. It's just that this is the way we all know it. It's tradition. It's tradition. Yeah. It's a calming mudra. And a lot of people, you know... Have had this Rinzai experience... Or read something about pulling the thumb. So the calming thing... I guess we can maybe talk a little about... Well, you can say this about it. This is the barometer. Where you can tell... How the body is... And mind are... The condition of body and mind. When the thumbs are pressing together... It's too much tension. When they're not... When they're hanging out... It's too much... Too loose. So... They're very lightly touching. That means that the... Body-mind is in...

[39:46]

Calm. Balanced. Condition. And... So... We keep bringing ourselves back to that. Why is it called cosmic? It includes the whole cosmos. You can't give us an instruction... Until you understand that. Well, I better get out of here. When you tell people... That you open up to your pain... Rather than close to it... How do you describe... How to do that? Say you become one with the pain. And then you have a colon. I don't try to get a... I don't try to... Pat them on the back and... And make everything just right. I say, this is... Become one with the pain. And nobody can tell you how to do that. Nobody can tell you. We can talk about how to do that. But you have to... The practice is how to do that. That's what the practice is. Is learning how to do that. So...

[40:47]

We don't say, this is how you do it. Just put you there. Because it doesn't help. Well, I know some teachers... In other positions have said... You just focus on the sensation. Or kind of be aware of the sensation. That's okay. Focus on the sensation. Not so much focus, but... But we just say... Become one with it. So that there's no resistance. As soon as you start resisting... Then it becomes pain. It's just a feeling. What you have is just a feeling. But you create... A condition called pain... Out of the feeling. Sometimes... When I feel tempted to go... Farther than that... I'm talking about it as a practice. And say... And this is a model for everything in your life. When you... It's like...

[41:49]

If you can learn to deal with your legs... Then you've learned something that you can apply... In other ways. And if you can apply it in other ways... Then you can learn how to apply it on your legs. That's right. So I sometimes say something like that too. Speaking of the spine... I was wondering if you could comment on something that... Rev. Anderson once said... You could imagine... That there's a string... On the back or the top of your crown... And someone's lifting it... And then your head is... The chin is going to naturally go down a little. That's right. So just think... About the crown of your head... Being held up by a string from the ceiling. And you're dangling. And then all the rest of it is falling. Your body. Every time I've thought about that... I sort of... Should we try to... Increase the space between our discs? By a micrometer?

[42:49]

That is a good thing. Yeah, you should stretch your vertebrae. Everybody said, well... Stretch your vertebrae. And stretch your waist. And keep reaching for the ceiling. You can only keep it up for so long. And then... Your body finds its... But it's a good way to start. And to see how long you can do that. And then... The body kind of relaxes into a good position. But that stretches it all out. So that it can come down to... It's like... You know, if you have a violin or... Something you can... Tighten... Sharpen the string and then... And then... Flatten it to where... Just the right pitch. So you stretch yourself out. And then you come down to the right pitch. To where it feels. And then... Rather keep straining up to it. It's a very hard way to tune. Huh? That's actually a very hard way to tune the string. To start sharp and go flat.

[43:53]

So after you're done explaining... Each part of the... Sinning Zazen... Then... I haven't finished yet. Oh, okay. And then... There's more. Well, this doesn't take this long. You've been explaining it. But it takes longer. Then I talk about... What you do. How you think. So when you're sitting... Thoughts will continually... Keep coming up in your consciousness. So you allow a thought to come up. You don't try to chase thoughts away. When a thought comes up... The thought becomes... The subject... Of your attention. And you just... Cognize the thought. Let it be there. But... You don't build... A fantasy on the thought. Instead of chasing the thought away...

[45:02]

You bring your attention back... To posture and breathing. And another thought will come up. And then... You let the thought be there. And then... You turn your attention back to... Posture and breathing. So that you're not... Making a judgment that thoughts are bad. Or that this thought is not a good thought. Or it is a good thought. Or it's an enlightened thought. Or it's a delusive thought. You just treat all thoughts alike. And let them come and let them go. And keep bringing your attention back... To posture and breathing. So there's no contention. There's simply returning... To... The task at hand. Sometimes... You might have never done certain tea. But... That's a stereotype. This is a universe. Sometimes I say... Counting?

[46:08]

Counting? Yeah, yeah. And then... When you breathe... You count your breaths. From one to ten. On the exhale. So after you inhale... You count one on the exhale. And then you inhale. Count two on the exhale. And when you count... You're not counting sheep... Jumping over a fence. The breath... Is the sound... The sound of the number is the sound of the breath. So the point is to be inside the breath. And using the number... As a... A way to check yourself. To see how your mind is wandering. And it's like... A handle on a cup. It's just a convenience. So... On exhaling... One... Two... Three...

[47:08]

And if you lose count... You start again with one. And without saying... Or... Without judging it. Simply starting again. If you can help it to count. And when you get to thirty... You just say... Four... Five... When you get to thirty-two... Three... Four... Five... Or starting again with one. So it's a way to... Be mindful. You don't have to do it all the time. But you should learn how to do it. So that... It will come in... When you need it, it will be there. So... I ask people to... To do that one... For the first year or two. Then... You say when the bell rings... You bow. And then...

[48:09]

The opposite. You go slowly... Or not so far... And then gradually... Winding the arc... To loosen up your legs. You don't do this, but... I teach people to do this. It's good to do this. Then... And then... I... You get off... The time when I'm stepping on the... Inward... You turn to the right... And adjust the cushion. Now... My cushion... Is different than everybody else's. So I'm going to show you... The other cushion. This cushion. Can I ask you a question... First, before you do that? I mean, this is not something you do... In Zazen instruction, but... For those of us... We adjust our clothing... Before we...

[49:10]

Adjust our seat. Is that right? If you're wearing robes, say. Not part of Zazen instruction. Not Zazen instruction. No, but it just... After you sit down, you adjust your robes. No, after you get up. When you get up. Oh, when you get up. Yeah, you make sure that your case isn't... Tucked up under your behind. But that happens mostly to women. Because they have a bigger behind. And so the... The case that arrives up... Under your behind. So I... I'm sorry. It's not part of Zazen instruction. But this is the way I tell people to... Adjust their cushion. Not like this. With the thumbs. With the palm of your hand. You push down. And then you rotate. Use your whole body weight. Not your thumbs. Don't do that. And then keep turning it. Until it's... Like this. And you put it in the middle of the... Say yes. What? Do you rotate your zappo from the left to the right

[50:12]

or the right to the left? Depending on whether you're... Right handed or left handed. Which side of the congenital divider? As long as it doesn't hit anybody in the teeth. And then... Zabaton. And Zabaton... It's hard to say. You know, like we say one... One hand flip. From the... In between the... But it doesn't work out that way. So... Maybe we should make all new Zabatons that are perfectly the size so that we can always do it one handed. And we won't have that crew. But... At least you can... At least you can... At a neat distance apart from each other so that they're square and not crooked. Stuff like that. And then... Turn around to the right. And... Okay? Well, I have a question.

[51:12]

I'm not sure how pertinent it is, but... How did your zappo get to be there? One theory is it's the same zappo you started with that has been making K-pop all these years. No, I use it... I have a flat cushion so that it conforms to me instead of me conforming to it. That's how I see my sciatic move. Oh, for sciatica it's easier? For sciatica? The harder the cushion, the more... More pressure. Pressure. Ah, I see. So, Jin, you can't let them go now, the instructees, without telling them what happens. Otherwise you'll find them heading for the door because they don't realize... Oh, yes. There's this bowing thing. Okay. Well, you can tell them, you know, to wait beside their seat. That's right. After bowing out, then... Lay down. And stand in chashu. Also, I didn't tell them when...

[52:13]

I usually tell them this. It sounds awful. When you're sitting and somebody comes and sits in the seat next to you and they bow, you bow to them, facing the wall. And if they leave, the same thing. One thing. I don't know if we're going to get to this later, but you can encourage people to come to Zazen Confection again, too. Also, I usually tell people that if they start sitting regularly, it's good to talk to somebody. So to go... I tell them about the list of practice instructors, and I give people a little increment rather than trying to cover everything during Zazen Confection. And also, you say, it's good to see one of the practice instructors to follow up on your... Right. That's very good. I haven't done the instruction for such a long time. After that, do people practice a little bit so that they can try out what and how long? Well, okay, that's a good point. Before getting up,

[53:14]

I say, now let's sit for a few minutes. After we get into the posture and breathing on, then I say, let's just sit for a few minutes. And I sit for maybe 5 or 10 minutes, just to get a feeling for the sitting. And then I say, do you have any questions? And then they can ask all kinds of questions that they want. I don't usually talk about the service. I may say, we do have a service where we bow and chant. But I don't go through all that stuff. Unless... But you tell them to watch what everybody else is doing. Just do what everybody else is doing. Yes, just watch what... If you take a seat in the back, then you can watch what everybody's doing and just follow along. I also really encourage them to stay for it. There seems to be a movement these days of people who leave. So they're going to be confused sometimes. And I say, please stay for service. Well then... Oh, after zazen. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[54:29]

Oh, that's right. Yes. I say the period of zazen is 40 minutes. And try to sit still the whole time. If you can't sit still, it's okay to uncross your legs. But if you make an effort to sit still without uncrossing your legs, then if you have to, it's okay. At some point, if you keep doing the practice, you will not want to move, even when you feel like it. And that's a step of progress. Can you give me a description? Yes. I say, in between zazen periods, we have what we call kin-gen, where you hold your hands in shashu. But we only do that on Saturday. Yeah, but anyway. Right. And we walk very slowly in zendo for 10 minutes. And you stand as if you were sitting zazen. In zazen postures.

[55:32]

With kin-shashu. And then you take half a step at a time. And when you lift your foot, you lift it on the inhale. And you put it down on the exhale. And then you lift it on the inhale. And half a step means that the heel of one foot is even with the instep of the other. And you lift it on the inhale. Down on the exhale. And then you lean your weight on your foot. And inhale. And exhale. And when you exhale, you press your foot into the floor. Inhale and lift. And exhale, press your foot into the floor. Half a step at a time. You can take. You don't have to do it with one breath. You can try to keep in harmony with the people in front and back of you. So, you may take a couple breaths

[56:34]

before you move your foot. Just like, however, what you do with your foot, you lift it on the inhale. And put it down on the exhale. And then, when, zazen, when kintan is over, there's a bell. And we bow in shashu. And then everybody quickly returns to their seats. I don't know if you want to get into that much detail, but you have to kind of assess who's there. Well, you know, one of the things that we're talking about, and hopefully will work out in the next couple of months, is we're thinking about, there's a discussion about changing the time of zazen instruction from that very brief period before lecture to after the program, so that you'd have, like, an hour and a half or so, so that actually you could get into more detail and you could show people kintan and you wouldn't feel rushed. I used to show them.

[57:35]

Yeah, but it's very hard to do it in the half hour or forty minutes that you have. Anyway, this is up for discussion. I think we're thinking of doing that. One reason is that it will lower the bodies in zendo during the lecture, I suppose. Or another one. It will? Yeah. People will come out of curiosity. Let's not have the discussion here now. Yes. You have a chance to say something. So we could have zazen instruction in the zendo then? Yeah, if we do. Which would make a big difference. Yes. Okay? Thank you very much. And then, I tell them that when we leave the zendo, we also bow to it. They'll still see that.

[58:29]

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